Project: "EU-fic"

[Illuminatus Primus]

You know, you could have the Empire start to propogandize against some Jedi as traitors and insufficiently loyal to the regime (but the Jedi still support) and stuff like that, with their people secretly spreading disinformation and rumors claiming modern Jedi are charlatans and weren't really supportive of the Republic and now Empire, and with the Jedi having been greatly attrited by the Clone Wars and the hunting efforts of their wartime enemies (Dark Empire implies this, with its dungeon ships which "transported Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars", strongly implying that some kind of systematic pogrom began before the Empire's purge) are much lower profile and people are starting to just believe everything Palpatine or his people say. This way the Jedi skepticism starts and grows even before the actual purge. And the Empire can start earlier. Like I said, I think we can have a 30 year old Empire. The duel is 20 years (20 BBY) before Luke buys droids (Padme just got pregnant, she doesn't have to have the kids at the end because now she's doesn't die), and 5 (25 BBY) years earlier was the purge. The Empire was declared 2-5 years before that (27-30 BBY?), and Anakin was discovered at 15 in 40 BBY (Anakin is 35 in ROTS?). I'd have the Clone Wars be longer, maybe 30 years or so. I like Hoth's idea of an interconnected series of wars like the Thirty Years War, not well-defined (of course when did World War II begin? With the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939 or the Japanese aggression against China in 1931 or 1937?; these things can be debatable). So I think it should be 20-40 years long. That should also have the effect of severing the cultural ties and memory for the pre-war Republic.

Edited to keep the purge at 25 years BBY.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Personally, I'm fine with a young Empire. It's the short, singular Clone Wars I have a problem with. As long as we can greatly expand their length, scope and impact I'll be happy. An Empire that's more than thirty or so years old by ANH just presents far too many problems. It's the Second Galactic Empire that will be known for its longevity. The First Galactic or Palpatinic Empire, not so much.

I do agree with him that the Empire only 19 years old of the PT is a bit young for everyone to think its the radical new age. I think more like 30 years would be a bit better suited. Of course my Empire would be collaborated with by many of the protagonists; I'd make them partially responsible for helping Palpatine, only to realize their error later, and when they get purged the Empire is turned into a despotate (compare to early SW when they talk in ANH novelisation about how the Empire was once great).

[Admiral Felire]

Darth Raptor, on your points, I figure that the Palpatine Empire had about 30 years before Yavin. Which, when you add 4 years means 34 years before Endor. And then add another 10 years before Dark Empire, which means the Empire technically lasted only half a century in total before its central leader was truly, most sincerely dead.

On to the Clone Wars I figure a at least 10 years, with it being galaxy-spanning and broken up into many many forces, battles, campaigns and whatevers. It will probably last a year or two after the Empire is formally incorporated. I figure Palpatine declares that only by giving him direct, all-encompassing personal authority can the war be truly one.

Your second about about it being the Second Galactic Empire that is known for its length, I so totally and completely love that idea. To me that government will have all the right things, good imperial jedi being the paramount issue. hehe

PS. I don't have a problem with a 30 or so long Clone Wars, though does that mean Palpatine was in it during the entire time? That is the question cause to me Palpatine is a central figure and needs to be involved heavily with all that happens.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Darth Raptor, on your points, I figure that the Palpatine Empire had about 30 years before Yavin. Which, when you add 4 years means 34 years before Endor. And then add another 10 years before Dark Empire, which means the Empire technically lasted only half a century in total before its central leader was truly, most sincerely dead.

Empire's End takes place 10 years after Yavin, not after Endor; its only 6 years after Endor.

Your second about about it being the Second Galactic Empire that is known for its length, I so totally and completely love that idea. To me that government will have all the right things, good imperial jedi being the paramount issue. hehe

My alluded-to concept of a Second Empire would have an Imperial Order of Force-Knights and Jedi exiles.

[Darth Raptor]

Those are some good ideas. Perhaps the Clone Wars brought about a schism in the Jedi Order between principled dissidents like the (public) Count Dooku, "damn fool idealists" like Kenobi and non-interventionists ("thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved"). The Republic, probably at the behest of Palpatine and his Jedi supporters would move make the Jedi subservient to the Republic for the sake of effectively prosecuting the Wars. I think you can extrapolate from there in several interesting directions.

[Admiral Felire]

A part of me wants to work on the Second Empire. Hmm, maybe that could be a thread in Fanfic that I might create. I have to think about it because honestly, the idea of a true Star Wars Galactic Empire that is pretty much neutral if not good, supported by legions of highly trained and loyal Force Users, backed by a military of unequaled size and strength and highly efficient bureaucracies and led by the Senate and Emperor is really something that is attractive to me.

But um, yeah, that is for another thread I think. hehe

Multiple decade Clone Wars is fine. 30 year old Empire before Yavin is fine. Purge happening somewhat after Empire formed, is fine. Vaderizing Duel years after Anakin joins Empire, fine. Padme not dying when giving birth, good.

So yeah, general timeline looks almost good to go, if you ask me.

Oh, by the way, what are we going to do with the Outbound Flight. I figure it occurs during the Clone Wars, stops in one of the perimeter galaxies where it is destroyed by Thrawn following both his instincts and the urging of Palpatine toadies.

[Illuminatus Primus]

On to the Clone Wars I figure a at least 10 years, with it being galaxy-spanning and broken up into many many forces, battles, campaigns and whatevers. It will probably last a year or two after the Empire is formally incorporated. I figure Palpatine declares that only by giving him direct, all-encompassing personal authority can the war be truly one.

I think it should be winding down, with the Empire sold as being a constitutional monarchy at first, a lifetime achievement award for Palpatine for saving the galaxy. He turns it into a tyranny though.

PS. I don't have a problem with a 30 or so long Clone Wars, though does that mean Palpatine was in it during the entire time? That is the question cause to me Palpatine is a central figure and needs to be involved heavily with all that happens.

Yeah behind the scenes he'd be in control and he'd use the early and poor prosecution of the wars and crises to eliminate and discredit his probable political opposition and rivals and to engineer an excuse for him to be elected, after which he turns it all around and is loved as a savior. I always thought that it was strange that Palpatine in the PT sits impotently while the Seperatist crisis unfolds and no one blames him for weak leadership or not doing more for it happening on his watch. This way it happens on other people's watch, and they practically beg him to take power or they give it to that nice guy who quietly pipes up "I might have a plan" as basically a last resort on their last limb.

Okay, let me sum-up:

55 BBY The birth of Anakin Skywalker

45-70 BBY Debatably the beginnings of what would become the Clone Wars

40 BBY Anakin (age 15) discovered in the Outer Rim by Obi-Wan Kenobi, on a war-related mission (I? a lot of AOTC reused ideas and such with a bit from TPM) the wartime election of Palpatine??

30-25 BBY Debatably the end of the Clone Wars

25-27 BBY Acclamation of Palpatine as Galactic Emperor, The Great Purge, and the Fall of Anakin Skywalker (age 28-30)? (II? I imagine a lot of the concepts and ideas of AOTC mashed with the first half of ROTS)

20 BBY Luke and Leia concieved, Padme flees, Obi-Wan defeats Vader/Anakin (age 35) who is iron-lunged, last constraints on Palpatine's power are dismantled; the Empire's Enabling Act is passed and the Republican constitution fully replaced. (III? second half of ROTS stretched and with new material)

19 BBY Luke and Leia born

O BBY Battle of Yavin, duh. (IV)

3 ABY Battle of Yavin (V)

4 ABY Battle of Endor (VI)

10 ABY The final death of Palpatine

11 ABY The dissolution of the Galactic Empire

20-25 ABY The NJO Crisis Begins

1000-2000 ABY The foundation of the Second Empire?

[Darth Raptor]

Most excellent. Let's work with that.

[Admiral Felire]

I just wanted to post this as a thought.

I don't know about you guys but I never liked the idea of a government called the New Republic. The government later known as the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (GFFA) was slightly better but it still did not call to me. What I suspect would be that the leaders of the Alliance to Restore the Republic would eventually create the Second Galactic Republic.

And so that is what I think they should do. Not at first, not during the time that Palpatine remains alive, even secretly. I think that maybe they could create the New Republic as was canon. But then Palpatine appeared and dismantled all that they did and achieved, making them Rebels again for a few years. Then they came back together and had to worry about recreating it all. And this took place over another decade or so.

But eventually the wars that occurred around the galaxy begin to slow down, with a final peace treaty being signed between Pellaeon and the republican government. I think that a part of this peace treaty was the formal recognition of the rise of a new day, a new era. After much debate and conflict this signing also saw the formation of the Second Galactic Republic which formally incorporated the Imperial State as a special member state with high level membership in the new state. Kinda like a specialized member of the greater galactic unity.

That way if we decide to do something else then it would be a galactic level threat.

Oh, by the way, I also think it should be Pellaeon that later on becomes an Emperor and not a Fel.

[Darth Raptor]

"New Republic" should be a colloquialism, like "Old Republic". Officially, it should be the Galactic Republic or the New Galactic Republic when it's necessary to distinguish it from the Old Republic.

[Karmic Knight]

"New Republic" should be a colloquialism, like "Old Republic". Officially, it should be the Galactic Republic or the New Galactic Republic when it's necessary to distinguish it from the Old Republic.

Second Galactic Republic?

[Admiral Felire]

In general I do not have a problem with your timeline.

Though I wish to make it known that I don't think we should have the Dissolution of the Galactic Empire. I just think that it transforms quietly and without much whatever into something like the Imperial Remnant, but without that name. Maybe the Imperial State or something.

But yeah, for the most part I think your timeline works. Couldn't we have the Vaderization Duel be a year or so after Padme flees, Obi-Wan gets her away and then somewhat later goes after Anakin as Anakin is hunting him?

Also, I don't think that there should ever bee a formal time when it states that Palpatine becomes a despot. I just think he becomes Emperor and from then on uses his power.

Here is a question, why does Obi-Wan use Tatootine and who is Ben and whatever Lars if they are not related to Anakin. Or are we sticking with Anakin being a slave on Tattoinee.

And yeah, I think we should reuse as much of the PT and that era EU as we can.

[Admiral Felire]

I vote Second Galactic Republic.

Though I want to state that I think there should be a number of eras here.

First Galactic Republic Era
First Galactic Empire Era from founding to Endor
Time of Imperial war - this is between Endor and Dark Empire
Dark Empire Revival - The empire dominates the galaxy for a few years.
Final Fall - With Palpatine's final death the Empire no longer has any galactic rule standing.

Alliance wise the government they establish between Endor and Dark Empire should be different than the one they establish after Dark Empire. The one after Dark Empire actually survives for a thousand years, the first one does not.

[Darth Raptor]

I think technically it would be the third, what with the Ruusan Reformation. Also, I imagine that "New Republic" would be the favored usage of both its critics and its partisans. Sort of like "Imperial Remnant" for polities that still called themselves the Galactic Empire, only palatable to all parties. "Second" evokes images of history repeating itself, which they'd probably like to avoid. Contrast this with the neo-Imperialist nostalgia that would lead to a Second Empire. Although that would be an historical and not a political name.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Pelleaon cannot be Emperor. He's first of all, he's conservative and he's extremely old by the time he's developed his holdout federation. More importantly, he is not an aristocrat like Palpatine. Fel isn't much better, but at least he was granted a Barony of the Empire by the first Galactic Emperor and his heir is a dashing and relatively young warrior and officer.

As I wrote this post, I came up with this fluff (cross-posted to the Fanfic thread):

The Peerage of the Empire

(Grand Prince of the Empire?)*
Prince of the Empire*
(Grand Duke of the Empire?)
Duke of the Empire
Marquess of the Empire
Count of the Empire
Viscount of the Empire
Baron of the Empire

The Baronetage of the Empire

Baronet of the Empire

This is a combination of the Napoleonic French, Russian, British, and German systems.

*Analogy to the Russian usage of the title knyaz and velikiy kynaz, considered the highest titles of nobility, "prince" and "grand prince," respectively. Velikiy kynaz is traditionally translated as "Grand Dukes," but is more properly translated "Grand Princes" or "Great Princes".

[Admiral Felire]

Yeah, I know that Pellaeon cannot be Emperor. But I always thought that his son should take the reign, as a sort of nobility figure.

And that son will declare himself Emperor Pellaeon the Second, automatically making his father (who disagreed with the notion, but couldn't gain enough power to stop it) the First. Its an interesting political situation that I find somewhat cool.

And it doesn't matter if Pellaeon is not noble, neither was Palpatine. What matters is political and military support.

--

In my mind the Galactic Empire survives as the Imperial State in the 'Number' Galactic Republic (we can figure it out). This allows for some continuity, which would be used later on during the transition back to empire a thousand years hence.

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I should state that I am actually looking forward to your writeup of the nobility in the Empire and the galaxy. Its an interesting topic I think.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Despite the colloquial use of the "Alliance" to refer to the Coruscant-dispossessed New Republic of the Shadowhand era, the New Republic never ceased to be a continuous constitutional organism during the Empire's resurgence and until the New Republic recaptured Coruscant. They did however, finally finish their constitutional convention and convene a permanent government, as opposed the provisional one they had. Similarly, the Galactic Empire is a constitutionally continuous organism from Palpatine's acclamation as Galactic Emperor until the assassination of Emperor Carivus and the subsequent dismemberment and dissolution of the Imperial State.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, I know that Pellaeon cannot be Emperor. But I always thought that his son should take the reign, as a sort of nobility figure.

You forgot the fact that Pelleaon's Empire is a power-sharing oligarchy between the military (Pelleaon) and local elites (the Moff Council)?

And that son will declare himself Emperor Pellaeon the Second, automatically making his father (who disagreed with the notion, but couldn't gain enough power to stop it) the First. Its an interesting political situation that I find somewhat cool.

I don't see where he'd come from or manage the political support to do this, particularly when it would probably inflame and aggravate their relations with the New Republic.

And it doesn't matter if Pellaeon is not noble, neither was Palpatine. What matters is political and military support.

Actually, Palpatine was noble. This is substantiated by numerous RPG sourcebooks which rate and state him to be such, not to mention the fact he was part of Naboo's political aristocracy, and the fact that The New Order in Power says so and its our in-house canon.

In my mind the Galactic Empire survives as the Imperial State in the 'Number' Galactic Republic (we can figure it out). This allows for some continuity, which would be used later on during the transition back to empire a thousand years hence.

It is certainly an interesting vehicle for translatio imperii in the future.

I should state that I am actually looking forward to your writeup of the nobility in the Empire and the galaxy. Its an interesting topic I think.

I'll write up a thing on the "Names and Numbers" of the galactic society, the traditional elite. And I'll also write something describing the Great Powers.

While political scientists and historians probably would call the New Republic the Second Republic in retrospect, it would just call itself formally the "Galactic Republic" like its antecedent. Likewise any hypothetical future Empire might be called the Second Empire, but it formally would be the "Galactic Empire" without qualification.

[Admiral Felire]

The Imperial State never dissolves, rather it is taken over by Pellaeon when he establishes his Imperial Remnant. That is the Empire despite it not being galactic anymore. When Pellaeon signs the declaration of peace with the New Republic he is technically signing it for all Imperial factions - and if a faction doesn't obey that then they have to content with both the Republic and the Empire coming hard on them. Because Pellaeon is the Empire by that time.

Also, your point about the Republic finally establishing a constutitonal convention is a good one and can be used by us.

So how about this. Endor happens and the Alliance creates the New Republic as an interim government until a time of peace can be achieved where a full and total and completely legal government can be established. This does not happen until the time of the final peace treaty with the Empire, which amongst other things probably stated that they gave up their status as the official government - which is something that politicians would probably want in writing.

It is at this point that the New Republic officially becomes the Second Galactic Republic, constitutionally and all. And from this point until it falls or transforms (as the case may be) a thousand years later into the Second Galactic Empire it remains the constitutionally legal government of the galaxy.

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By the way, I created a new EU Fic thread in Fanfic. This one based on coming up with an idea for the Second Galactic Empire. I know, I know, its a long way off, but I honestly could not resist. My ideas posted there are just ideas, they are not ironclad binding. I just figure that people would probably like it if their was ideas in the thread rather than just the blanket "hey, lets make a Second Galactic Empire."

[Darth Raptor]

This seems like a non-issue to me. Historians will make much ado about the death of Emperor Carivus being the end of the Palpatinic Empire, and they will be correct. However, Pellaeon's remnant will be recognized as and, for all intents and purposes, BE the spiritual (if not legal) successor state to the First Empire. IOW, I don't see what the problem is.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't think the New Republic should be formally constituted as the "Second Galactic Republic"; the French Republics are known as simply the "French Republic," including this one, even though its the fifth. The "French Empire" did the same, both first and second. That's the way it should be. Of course historians and political scientists will note that the New Republic (later formally the "Galactic Republic") was the second Republic and the second Empire (formally the "Galactic Empire) was the second.

Furthermore, the Imperial State does dissolve completely at the end of Crimson Empire II: Council of Blood. There is no legal legitimate transmission of imperium from the Imperial Throne to the administration later set up ex nihilo by Pelleaon. There's no way to change this without significantly changing a series of events (the observed discontinuity from the fall of the Imperial State to complete warlord dismemberment, the seperate warlord factions, the Daala coup, the Pelleaon evacuation and union with the Rimworld Imperialists). Pelleaon's achievements are actually more interesting and remarkable than if there was a rump administration waiting for him to steward it. Rather, he fashioned a working state from nonworking and disparate parts and breathed life and function into it.

He's right. The pretense that Charlemagne's Empire could really be ruled by a Pope-crowned Imperator Augustus styling himself Imperator Romanorum (Emperor of the Romans) hundreds of years after the imperial regalia was shipped to Constantinople from Ravenna and the pretense of the Western Roman Empire completely abandoned was taken quite seriously and really happened. This usage actually spawned a Western European revivalist imperial concept which maintained the conceit that they were a legitimate successor of the Roman dominate all the way until the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was dissolved by Napoleon and the last Emperor stripped of his title. Its okay if Pelleaon is not a legitimate successor of Emperor Carivus and his administration is not the Imperial State.

[Admiral Felire]

You know what, I was just thinking of something. This thought might change my idea on Pellaeon.

Palpatine was declared the Emperor by the Senate, the legally binding body which had every right to do such a thing if it wanted.

The Peace Treaty that was signed between the 'Galactic Empire' and the New Republic by Pellaeon probably transferred authority over the galaxy to the new government. Now, it might not mean much but I figure that a society that existed for over 25,000 years pretty close to stable would really like having the new government that is in charge be legally connected to the previous government in charge.

This means that the Senate of the Second Galactic Republic has tall the galactic legal authority of the Senate of the First Galactic Republic. And thus, when the Senate of the Second Republic declares somebody Emperor, it is in fact a legally binding agreement based on its own political authority.

Which I think, from a legal and political basis is really interesting and something that I support.

So yeah, I think I might ignore my idea on making Pellaeon Emperor. hehe

[Admiral Felire]

But wait, Pellaeon united disparate Imperials into a single whole. He united Moffs, Admirals and all that. The Moffs have the legal authority of the Empire so shouldn't their governments have the technical authority to be considered the legal Empire.

This is actually fascinating to me, to be honest. I mean, yeah, it won't matter to most citizens of the galaxy - but I don't care as I like the legal nature of things like this.

And your right, the fact that Pellaeon all by himself took various almost destroyed pieces and made a new successful government out of it, is a really cool thing and a testament to his ability.

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I understand that its okay, I just think that the idea of the legal connection between the 25,000 year Galactic Republic, the 50 year Galactic Empire (the First), the 1,000 year Galactic Republic (the Second) and the how many year Galactic Empire (the second) should be maintained. Maybe its just me, but I don't think that a political chain that worked for so long should be so easily disconnected.

But I like ancient governments that span the test of time, so of course I would think this.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You're completely right; acclamation by the Senate and People of the Galactic Union was established as an acceptable and legitimate means of donning the purple. I expect that latter-day Imperialists will attempt to effect the same gimmicks.

The Moffs are just the Cardinals of the Empire; their Moffhood does not own imperium, nor does their role as Governors and Supreme Commanders in and over Sectors; in which guise they simply exercise governance at the behest of the policies outlined by the Council of Ministers and the Privy Council. Fun fact, the Moffs of the Empire technically outrank Pelleaon, whose last legitimate rank as a GECO (Galactic Emperor's Commissioned Officer) was vice admiral. Now, Governors and Supreme Commanders in and over Sectors may authorize GCOs (Governor's Commissioned Officers) up to the grade of high admiral. So Pelleaon may legally rank as high admiral (by virtue of promotion from a Moff Governor!). High admirals are inferior to Moffs of the Empire on the Table of Ranks, they rank lower on the order of precedence. So Pelleaon was actually an inferior at worst socially to his nominal equals among the Moffs.

My guess is that the governors and the armed forces wrote up some legal document investing ostensibly temporary institutions with provisionally exercising the Imperial and Royal Prerogatives and the roles of the HIMG and the Privy Council while the central government was "unavailable" (i.e., no longer existed). These institutions included a large Council of State (the so-called Moff Council) with a Standing Committee for day-to-day business and a Provisional Supreme Commander (Pelleaon) provisionally authorized to the highest grade and charged with coordinating common defense. Some sort of agreement hammers out how they can set up government institutions, probably including a commissioners' council or something taking the place of the Council of Ministers in drafting laws and decrees and running policy portfolios, etc. This is just my idea, anyway.

[Admiral Felire]

I just realized that we are going to have to change the makeup of the group of officials that Pellaeon kills in order to make his new government. The forces that they had did not really fit the scope of the galaxy.

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Using all the statements above.

When the peace treaty and the constitutional convention finally comes about the New Republic becomes the second Galactic Republic. That is the name of its government.

Here is a question, within its constitution would it be stated to be the Second Galactic Republic or would it be stated to be the second Galactic Republic. I'm curious on this.

I also want to point out that I never read Crimson Empire III, which is why I hadn't known that. Comics are generally not something that interests me, I stick to books (not that there is anything wrong with comics, but I like deep political dialog and stuff).