EU Fic: RotJ-NJO Era

[Illuminatus Primus]

Unfortunately not. IF we retain High Admiral and High General, I would only do so in a "senior" version of the rank. In other words, high admirals would rank between an admiral and admiral general, high generals between generals and colonel generals. For example, admiral, high admiral, admiral general, fleet admiral, grand admiral versus general, high general, colonel general, field (surface) marshal, and field (surface) marshal general. That's just a possible system though. Maybe we could just replace the awkward "high" with "senior", though.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How large do you imagine the Chiss to be, Illuminatus? I would suppose that they would have at least the equivalent of a few dozen Sectors, given that this is what canon ascribes to them and the fact that they are able to maintain enough of a military to protect their independence. This would assume that their territory is at least roughly contiguous, if one takes at face value the claim that their hyperdrive-analogue requires fixed subspace relays; are you thinking of them merely as isolated systems hold-outs in a loose federation?

Its confusing to use "sector" as if it is a standardized unit of spatial volume. I mean they should control what we are told they do as of now. The evidence seems to be pretty sure they control 28 colonies and Csilla. I'm willing to revise that up to systems, or maybe 28 colonial units each containing several inhabited systems. But without whole sale discarding, its hard to revise them to be, all-in-all, much larger in total than an Outer Rim sector under the Empire. Of course in the Unknown Regions they'd be spread across a very large span of space.

Also, the whole business with the fixed-relay system is pretty problematic (how could they even try to have an interventionist foreign policy if they can't go places they don't already have?). Maybe its an intentional system for the collectivist society to maintain control of most transit aside from state monopolized and military missions beyond?

[Admiral Felire]

What is this Admiral General and why do they exist?

Seriously, why should we combine the ranks of the Army and the Navy. I don't think that actually makes sense and I do not thing their is any support to reference that. Though i do not have any problem with Lord Officers which are nobles or other figures that are beyond the normal chain of command and can do what they wish.

I like the idea, and support and approve of it, of making the Chiss a multi-sector government with territory that is tightly packed together.

I like High General and think it works better than Senior General or whatever. Its not awkward to me, it sounds, feels and moves fine.

[Admiral Felire]

About the Chiss, couldn't we just say that its the civilians that use the hyperspace relays while the military are capable of using regular onboard hyberdrives. These hyperdrives are more expensive, technical and larger than normal galactic standard ones which is why they are kept in use by the military only. Or, you could say that it is a long standing policy that only the military has the ability to utilize hyperdrives and its got nothing to do with technology.

Afterall the Empire could have installed hyperdrives on standard TIEs, but they choose not to due to policy not technology.

And on the size of the Chiss, honestly, I never liked it in my view. The very first times we heard about them they seemed to be relatively large - at least more than a score of worlds. The magazine issue that declares them to have 20 or so worlds seemed to be two small. So, we could easily make it 20 'provinces' of something like five or so systems each.

This is pretty much what happens in the Clone army debate on what the definition of 'unit' is.

And if we make them in their own micro mini galaxy than their size is proportionate to the space around them. If they control 100 stars in a small galaxy where other powers control 20 or 30 worlds, then they are massive powers.

[Admiral Felire]

Galactic Astrogration Article

I very much like this and have no problem with this. Well, besides my issue with your statement that all sectors have 50 systems, but that is a relatively minor thing that can be modified and whatnot when coming up with stories.

On your issue of Moffs. I of course agree in the statement of not all Moffs are governors and not all governors are Moffs. This allows for a Moff to be in charge of a Ministry or a department or a whatever. But I also thing it needs to be stated that it seems that alot of Sectors are governed by Moffs. Not all of course, but most or alot.

Physical Astrography

I like this and again, have no problems with it. The fact that you do not actually state specific numbers for auxilary galaxies and all that works for me. It leaves us open.

I also like it because the concept is that the Star Wars Galaxy does not need to expand beyond its local galactic area because they have enough within it to make itself stable and comfortable. So that is good as well.

Astrographical Implications

I want to mention that I think that there are probably some high civilized, well developed and ancient regions in the nearby orbiting galaxies. That not all of them are barbaric outer rim territories.

Okay, so using your point Kamino before Episode 2 was Unknwon Regions because it was lost to the known galaxy. Despite it being in the Outer Rim.

Okay, I like the idea you have for the Unknown Regions. It allows for the ancient hidden stars that can be anywhere even including such places as the core due to something or another.

Using all your points, reading them, absorbing them, agreeing with most of them, I still think it makes no sense for a group of races and cultures like the Chiss and its confederates (though not actually aligned the Chiss had a number of races and nations they worked with) to be in the outer rim of the main galaxy. Having them be either in a pocket galaxy orbiting or in some sort of fringe territory above or below normal galactic space makes a lot more sense.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What is this Admiral General and why do they exist?

Generaladmiral, or admiral general in English, is the rank senior to admiral in the German Navy (in analog to grand admiral). Its not combining ranks of the the army and navy.

I like High General and think it works better than Senior General or whatever. Its not awkward to me, it sounds, feels and moves fine.

Its really arbitrary. High can remain, I just had a whim and decided to see what people thought.

About the Chiss, couldn't we just say that its the civilians that use the hyperspace relays while the military are capable of using regular onboard hyberdrives. These hyperdrives are more expensive, technical and larger than normal galactic standard ones which is why they are kept in use by the military only. Or, you could say that it is a long standing policy that only the military has the ability to utilize hyperdrives and its got nothing to do with technology.

Afterall the Empire could have installed hyperdrives on standard TIEs, but they choose not to due to policy not technology.

I'm leaning this way too.

And on the size of the Chiss, honestly, I never liked it in my view. The very first times we heard about them they seemed to be relatively large - at least more than a score of worlds. The magazine issue that declares them to have 20 or so worlds seemed to be two small. So, we could easily make it 20 'provinces' of something like five or so systems each.

Zahn also originally intended for the Unknown Regions to be "rar there be monsters lol" regions that actually were known to exist but mysteriously avoided, and that they occupy whole pie-wedges of the galactic disk (Zahn apparently confused Star Wars with Star Trek).

This is pretty much what happens in the Clone army debate on what the definition of 'unit' is.

And if we make them in their own micro mini galaxy than their size is proportionate to the space around them. If they control 100 stars in a small galaxy where other powers control 20 or 30 worlds, then they are massive powers.

I don't mind this, but then the Chiss should not be in the Unknown Regions. We can have big Chiss and have them be an insular and mysterious but known outlying power, but then they shouldn't be "unknown." They can be Unknown, but then they'll be scattered in the depths of the halo where they could realistically escape attention.

Galactic Astrogration Article

I very much like this and have no problem with this. Well, besides my issue with your statement that all sectors have 50 systems, but that is a relatively minor thing that can be modified and whatnot when coming up with stories.

I don't think that a sector contains 50 systems. Its just the only figure we're ever given in conjunction with sectors, so the only back-of-the-envelope crudeass figure I can come up with is divide the known number of federated state (1 million) with a known figure for states per sector (50). We don't know the actual average figure, so its the best I had to work with. It could be completely wrong, but I wanted some kind of ballpark figure. That's why I said "on the order of" or "within 10 times or 1/10th of this number."

On your issue of Moffs. I of course agree in the statement of not all Moffs are governors and not all governors are Moffs. This allows for a Moff to be in charge of a Ministry or a department or a whatever. But I also thing it needs to be stated that it seems that alot of Sectors are governed by Moffs. Not all of course, but most or alot.

I think a lot are too. But I also like that its still a real competition and cut-throat for the Moffly seats.

Physical Astrography

I like this and again, have no problems with it. The fact that you do not actually state specific numbers for auxilary galaxies and all that works for me. It leaves us open.

I also like it because the concept is that the Star Wars Galaxy does not need to expand beyond its local galactic area because they have enough within it to make itself stable and comfortable. So that is good as well.

Thank you.

Astrographical Implications

I want to mention that I think that there are probably some high civilized, well developed and ancient regions in the nearby orbiting galaxies. That not all of them are barbaric outer rim territories.

There's always going to be exceptions to the rule in a galaxy of billions of stars. But the trend will always go for shittier and less developed as you go outwards. Whereas 9/10 worlds might be first class nations in the Core, maybe like 1/10 in the fringe. There will still be powers (like Eriadu was, for example).

Okay, so using your point Kamino before Episode 2 was Unknwon Regions because it was lost to the known galaxy. Despite it being in the Outer Rim.

It was Unknown, wasn't it?

Okay, I like the idea you have for the Unknown Regions. It allows for the ancient hidden stars that can be anywhere even including such places as the core due to something or another.

Right.

Using all your points, reading them, absorbing them, agreeing with most of them, I still think it makes no sense for a group of races and cultures like the Chiss and its confederates (though not actually aligned the Chiss had a number of races and nations they worked with) to be in the outer rim of the main galaxy. Having them be either in a pocket galaxy orbiting or in some sort of fringe territory above or below normal galactic space makes a lot more sense.

I tried to say that. The halo is a diffuse spherical cloud of stars which permeates the area of the disk, the bulge, and above and below the disk and extends outward. They're there, it just looks like deep space in pictures because the density of stars is so low compared to the disk and they are far away.

[Admiral Felire]

First of all, I just want to come in and say I love German ranks, the fact that they unite a dozen words into a single string is interesting. I also have to say that yes, using German ranks (with modifications and additions from others) makes a lot of sense for us.

So yeah, that said, I don't oppose it as a general rank though I don't think it actually needs to exist. But htat is just me.

To give Zahn the benefit of the doubt, his novels were the first regular novels to exist in the era after Endor. He had to create it all on his own and did not have much information to base things on. So, really, its not all his fault. Its an issue of timing.

About the Chiss, I finally get what your saying.

Okay, using currently existing canon as it stands the Chiss exist in the Unknown Regions in the vast area of the galaxy unknown to all people. That is why they are Unknown.

Using, your terminology (which I find myself liking and thinking that it is better) they are unknown to the general galaxy but are not Unknown. That is, they won't be found in most maps, but if you go to the high government on Coruscant or the Jedi Temple in the Old Republic you could find them. Along with the words "Do not Enter." They are an Outer Rim territory within one of the perimeter galactic arms and they do know about the galaxy at large, just as they are known, it just that they are pretty much kept all alone. So, if somebody mentions the Chiss to a normal person they are an unknown territory. But if you mention it to a savant they might be able to figure it out.

About sectors, okay, gottcha. I understand, your using it as a numerical bases for easy division of stars into sectors. That works. And its fine, my problem was that in a lot of your explanations it seemed that you thought it was the way it was, not just an approximation. So yeah, thumbs on that.

[montypython]

Isn't Fleet Admiral higher than High Admiral, the latter which is a rank typically associated with commanders of sector forces?

Yeah, there's a bit of ambiguity wrt the levels of authority between the two ranks compared to standard Earth militaries, so I think whatever the group consensus is on rank structure would clarify and streamline things tremendously.

[Vehrec]

When I can spare the time and privacy, I'll hash out a varient on the Mon Remonda that can actually threaten an Executor if properly supported.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Here's a brief timeline concept: I hope Hoth replies in PSW and we can nail down a crude outline for the Clone Wars and rise of the Empire period.

30 BrS (65 BBY) Historians generally accept this (but remains disputed and debated) as the beginning of the Clone Wars

19 BrS (54 BBY) The birth of Anakin Skywalker???

0:00:01 rS (35 BBY) Great ReSynchronization

5 rS (30 BBY) Historians generally accept this (but remains disputed and debated) as the end of the Clone Wars

6?8?10? rS (29?27?25? BBY) The Acclamation of Palpatine as Galactic Emperor, the foundation of the Galactic Empire

16 rS (19 BBY) The Great Purge (includes the Jedi Purge), the Fall of Anakin Skywalker, the Despotic Throne is constitutionally ratified

35 rS (0 BY) The Battle of Yavin, the recess of the Imperial Senate "for the duration of the emergency" begins

38 rS (3 ABY) The Battle of Hoth

39 rS (4 ABY, 0 ABE) The Battle of Endor, the public death of Palpatine, the installation of Pestage as Regent, Imperial Senate indefinitely dissolved

40 rS (5 ABY, 1 ABE) The Liberation of Brentaal IV. Pestage ousted in coup; ERC ousted in Isard's counter-coup, Isard installed as Regent, the reincarnation of Palpatine in his clone on Byss

41 rS (6 ABY, 2 ABE) The Year of the Four Emperors (Drommel, Triocolus, Kadann, and Shadowspawn)

42 rS (8 ABY, 3 ABE) The Liberation of Coruscant

43 rS (9 ABY, 4 ABE) The rehabilitation of the Galactic Emperor on Byss, The Bacta War, the Zsinj Campaign, the marriage of Han Solo and HRH Leia Organa

44 rS (10 ABY, 5 ABE) The Thrawn campaign, the assassination of Supreme Commander Thrawn, the Fall of the Cuitric Hegemony, the Imperial Coalition campaign, the Imperial Mutiny, the Loss of the Liberator and abduction of Skywalker

45 rS (11 ABY, 6 ABE) The reunification, the 2nd coalition campaign and Operation Shadowhand, the final death of Palpatine and the destruction of Byss

46 rS (12 ABY, 7 ABE) The Imperial Interim Council regency, the purges, the Emperor Carivus, the Second Liberation of Coruscant, and the dissolution of the Imperial State, the Constitutional Convention of the New Republic, the Daala incident

When I can spare the time and privacy, I'll hash out a varient on the Mon Remonda that can actually threaten an Executor if properly supported.

That'd be great. The sooner the better.

[Admiral Felire]

I'm not Darth Hope, but participation in ideas is something that I do well.

I would say that the Empire arose around 50 years before A New Hope. The Clone Wars probably took place over a decade, which is something I like. So how about this.

-25,000 I - The signing of the Declaration of Galactic Unification forms the Galactic Republic.

-30 I - Palpatine is elected the Senator from Naboo to the Galactic Senate.

-15 I - Senator Palpatine is chosen to be the Chancellor of the Galactic Senate and President of the Republic.

-10 I - The Clone Wars begins around this point.

0 I - The Galactic Senate declares Palpatine the Emperor.

1 I - The Clone Wars officially ends.

50 I - A New Hope, Battle of Yavin, all that.

54 I - The Battle of Endor occurs. Palpatine dies.

[Admiral Felire]

By the way, I think that the timeline we create needs to be a narrator based timeline. That is, true accurate and exact, not up in the air or based on political or diplomatic lies. If we are creating a story I think we need to know the truth.

By the way in my opinion there is no reason for the Great ReSynchronization. I think that the Galactic Empire should use its own calendar date, which is based on the declaration of Palpatine as Emperor. When the Rebels come back I figure they might as well use either Endor or they would use the calendar of the Galactic Republic.

Or, we could have it so that the Galactic Empire still uses the calendar of the Galactic Republic, which means its dates would be in the 25,000s or so.

[Darth Raptor]

By the way in my opinion there is no reason for the Great ReSynchronization. I think that the Galactic Empire should use its own calendar date, which is based on the declaration of Palpatine as Emperor. When the Rebels come back I figure they might as well use either Endor or they would use the calendar of the Galactic Republic.

Certain Imperials did use the declaration of Empire as year zero and the Neo-Republicans did use the Battle of Yavin. The ReSynch calendar is favored for being politically neutral and BOTH the Imperial and New Republic calendars are actually derived from it. The Great ReSynchronization was done for practical, not political reasons; namely, to reconcile the countless competing calendars in use throughout the galaxy and to establish a formal galactic standard calendar. Just like language, currency, metric, etcetera.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Can someone please find a mod to cut up the PSW thread into a founding thread, a roll-call and recruitment thread (at least this needs to be separated and titled as such to attract attention), and a discussion/debate and move one or some of them here? I IMed Vympel but he hasn't replied (neither has Eleventh Century or a couple others, they haven't even read em). Would anyone like to PM some of the other recruitees named?

[Admiral Felire]

I get it, but to me the calendar used by those in the Galactic Republic would have been the calendar based on the founding of the Galactic Republic. Simple, conscience and a show of membership in the ancient and august body.

I see no reason why that wouldn't work. When Palpatine came in he would have chosen to either use the same calendar or make a new one based on his ascension. And he would have made all use it. Again, simple and practical.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm not advocating anything, I'm just retaining Great ReSynchronization because it gives us convenient and objective and neutral date-fixing for out-of-universe discussion right now. 0 rS is 35 BBY no matter what we do with the Empire's foundation or the Republic's dating system or other dates and dating. So it gives us nice little numbers for easy math when coming up with prospective timelines. Let's standardize on that use, and we can remove it later if it comes down to that as a decision. But since we all might have different ideas of dating systems (i.e., an Empire-based dating system, but we haven't locked down a foundation date), but it'll be too confusing to not use a system we all can understand.

[Admiral Felire]

My problem with the Great ReSynchronization is that its a random date placed in the middle of nothing. Absolutely nothing. It has no basis in anything which is why its a haphazard system.

Heck, even things like making Yavin year 0 have a basis cause we all know what it means.

-18 - Luke Skywalker is born.

0 - Battle of Yavin

Its very easy to figure out. The Great ReSynchronization is not, its clunky.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Look, just record the dates in multiple formats, like I did, for clarity and accessibility. It only took a couple minutes and basic arithmetic.

[Darth Raptor]

Okay, this is me brainstorming about the role of Force-sensitives in general and the Jedi Knights in particular. IP asked for ideas and I really like his and Hoth's conception of a martial society of chivalrous knight-errants. I will be expanding on that.

The Order of Jedi Knights are a theomilitant society of warrior monks and knights templar responsible for the foundation, defense and maintenance of the Old Republic. With their vast knowledge and exceptional abilities the Jedi led the defense of the ancient alliance of great powers (a sort of proto-Galactic Republic, think NATO or the UN during WWII) against the Sith Empire and other hostile polities. The Sith were more or less unified, and had no compunctions with outright conquest. If the proto-Republic was to survive, the great powers of the galaxy had to stand as one. While the Jedi stood for strength and unity, they also stood for liberty and equality. Revered as heroes and trusted as saints by the common citizens of the proto-Republic (having defended them against the Sith and others for generations) they were able to unite the great powers into a confederation. At the end of the final crusade that saw the Sith defeated, the Galactic Republic was finally established.

The Order was independent of the Republic Authority, but had a constitutionally-sanctioned mandate to travel throughout the Republic, righting wrongs, settling disputes, ending conflicts, participating in military campaigns, exploring the galaxy, recruiting members and expanding (through peaceful means) the Republic's sphere of influence. While the Order maintained a strict doctrine of ethics and conduct, individual Knights-errant and their students enjoyed considerable autonomy and discretion in the execution of their duties.

By far their most controversial authority and morally ambiguous function was that of the inquisition. Citing the very real danger of Dark Jedi, resurgent Sith Lords and unstable, self-taught magi, the Jedi maintained a strict monopoly on the theoretical research and practical application of the Force. Individuals with potential were inducted from a very young age and those whose parents or person refused were registered and kept under (discreet) surveillance for the rest of their lives. However, joining the ranks of the Order was considered an unparalleled honor which very few refused. In keeping with the laws of the Republic and their own egalitarian philosophy, alternative religions and Force-centric belief systems were tolerated. Witchcraft, the active exercise of those beliefs (e.g. the Sith, Nightsisters, etc.), was not. The Order also cooperated with secular efforts to scientifically study Force-related phenomena, albeit grudgingly.

[Admiral Felire]

Darth Raptor, I like your take on the Jedi. Its close enough to what we have now that the plots, stories and campaigns that a Jedi and their apprentices have gone on can still fit. It allows for maximum potential with minimum of restraint, and I like that. The mention of allowing religions based on the Force is also good. So yeah, I think that take works very well.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think they could take on pages and squires at a young age, but not infancy, and they should be allowed to leave, they should be given leave and a real education, they shouldn't be fully cut-off from real relationships (I can see that they'd not be allowed to marry and have children until they became retired and weren't 'active duty') and they should NOT use child soldiers! Otherwise, sounds good. Raptor, we got a chronology discussion in PSW, check it out until we get the thread properly chopped up.

[Admiral Felire]

First of all, I very much thing that the Jedi should have the master-apprentice routine which allows for them to have the best training.

I also think that children should be taken as soon as they are declared Force Sensitive. I actually like that aspect. And it leaves us something that Luke can go "No, that doesn't work, I'm discarding it."

I don't think the Jedi should be allowed to leave. Or at least, I don't think they should be allowed to disappear leave. If a Jedi says he doesn't want to be on active Jedi lists anywmore than fine, but he is and always will be a Jedi, because of his training and because of his power. And I like the idea of them quietly watching and monitoring those that choose to leave.

But it does allow us to have some Jedi who join the Empire and become loyal Imperial agents even after the Jedi fall. Anakin could not have been the only Jedi to remain loyal to the legal galactic government.

I think that the Jedi Order should have its own educational programs that teach them pretty much anything and everything they might want to know if they want to know it. So there is the principle master-apprentice training but there are also classes that any Jedi can take at either the Temple on Coruscant or at one of the various approved praxeums situated around the galaxy. I also think that due to the Force, Jedi should teach Jedi and not normals teach Jedi.

I don't have a problem with child soldiers if their life and upbringing make them mentally and socially responsible. And they are under the guidance of an older mentor, their master. Remember, our concepts of childhood and adulthood our ours and not humanities - times past their were many differences. I know I said this before, but I think its a point that needs to be made.

I also think that Jedi should be allowed to have sex, get married and have children. Though most of them will want to do it with fellow Jedi due to the connections that the Force allows for.

[Darth Raptor]

I think they could take on pages and squires at a young age, but not infancy, and they should be allowed to leave, they should be given leave and a real education, they shouldn't be fully cut-off from real relationships and they should NOT use child soldiers!

Absolutely. I honestly didn't mention it because I thought it went without saying. Yourself, Hoth and I have made our opinion on those practices abundantly clear on repeated occasions.

(I can see that they'd not be allowed to marry and have children until they became retired and weren't 'active duty')

This, OTOH, I'm not so sure about. Knights are going to be drawn from an incredibly wide range of species and cultural backgrounds; some of which might not even have analogous social institutions. The NJO (the organization, not the series) had no such restrictions and it makes things like Horn, Katarn and Skywalker families a bit incongruous. Personally, I'd think the discipline necessary to use their powers responsibly would foster a healthy sense of perspective vis a vis family versus duty. I also don't think the "forbidden love" dynamic is necessary for a compelling Anakin-Padmé story. Your fuel efficiency may vary.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Peerage of the Empire

(Grand Prince of the Empire?)*
Prince of the Empire*
(Grand Duke of the Empire?)
Duke of the Empire
Marquess of the Empire
Count of the Empire
Viscount of the Empire
Baron of the Empire

The Baronetage of the Empire

Baronet of the Empire

This is a combination of the Napoleonic French, Russian, British, and German systems.

*Analogy to the Russian usage of the title knyaz and velikiy kynaz, considered the highest titles of nobility, "prince" and "grand prince," respectively. Velikiy kynaz is traditionally translated as "Grand Dukes," but is more properly translated "Grand Princes" or "Great Princes".

[Admiral Felire]

Here is a question for you, would there be any legal Kings or Queens in the Empire.

And how would something like the Queen of Naboo be translated into this rank tier.

And in your opinion does noble rank in the Empire (compared to noble rank in a lesser political institution's like a planet) provide any legal authority or just honor. And do you think that any positions would only be opened to nobles of the Empire.

Also, in your thoughts would such things translate into the Galactic Republic and the New Republic.