EU Fic: RotJ-NJO Era

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm sure Palpatine had some theoretical mechanism by which he could theoretically call the Peerage for consultation and advice like some ersatz parliament. He probably had his architects even build some stupendous gigantism for the purpose. I doubt he ever did call them together and if he had I doubt it would have had any legal value. The main thing to the Peerage is giving someone an Imperial attaboy and making sure the top men of the Empire remain high on the order of precedence and social system by giving them a Peerage on retirement. Also, a Peerage comes with an estate and probably legal privileges.

Sure there are Kings and Queens, but not "of the Empire." And it depends. The oldest nobility might not even have title. Its about blood and time and social pecking orders. You think that the Windsors, Hohenzollerns, Bourbons, and Hapsburgs consider the House of Saud their equal, King or not? There is another emperor in the galaxy besides Palpatine, but who cares. He is not "His Imperial Majesty, the Galactic Emperor". Do you see the Baron Tagge stepping aside from some uppity tennō or podunk shāhanshāh? I don't think the HRH the Marquess Vandron of the Blood Royal thought much of Prince Xizor, royal prince and crown prince or not. I doubt there's a coherent system, that is.

[Darth Hoth]

Its confusing to use "sector" as if it is a standardized unit of spatial volume. I mean they should control what we are told they do as of now. The evidence seems to be pretty sure they control 28 colonies and Csilla. I'm willing to revise that up to systems, or maybe 28 colonial units each containing several inhabited systems. But without whole sale discarding, its hard to revise them to be, all-in-all, much larger in total than an Outer Rim sector under the Empire. Of course in the Unknown Regions they'd be spread across a very large span of space.

I dimly recall something from Vision of the Future that said they controlled a few dozen Sectors or so, meaning (I take it) less spatial and more that number of worlds (50 for each is the standard, yes?). Of course, that was Zahn wanking them (from his minimalist perspective), but if they are to be of any importance at all, they would need at least that, so why not go by it?

Also, the whole business with the fixed-relay system is pretty problematic (how could they even try to have an interventionist foreign policy if they can't go places they don't already have?). Maybe its an intentional system for the collectivist society to maintain control of most transit aside from state monopolized and military missions beyond?

I imagine that true hyperdrive might be rare among them for various economic/cultural reasons (emphasis on the latter), but not unheard of. So, while their regular military might have true hyperdrive for at least part of their ships, while commerce and civilian craft might not (or there might not be any of those, depending on how Socialist we make them). So, essentially, I am with you here.

Here's a brief timeline concept: I hope Hoth replies in PSW and we can nail down a crude outline for the Clone Wars and rise of the Empire period.

I might as well reply here, if we do intend to phase the discussion out of my original thread (which I agree that we should). But wow, you crew got busy over there, did you? Two and a half pages added since I logged off?

30 BrS (65 BBY) Historians generally accept this (but remains disputed and debated) as the beginning of the Clone Wars

19 BrS (54 BBY) The birth of Anakin Skywalker???

0:00:01 rS (35 BBY) Great ReSynchronization

5 rS (30 BBY) Historians generally accept this (but remains disputed and debated) as the end of the Clone Wars

That makes for a Thirty Years War-ish period. All right with me. I might make Anakin a little older, perhaps; I shall get to the details as I address the PSW discussion.

6?8?10? rS (29?27?25? BBY) The Acclamation of Palpatine as Galactic Emperor, the foundation of the Galactic Empire

16 rS (19 BBY) The Great Purge (includes the Jedi Purge), the Fall of Anakin Skywalker, the Despotic Throne is constitutionally ratified

No problems there; I would prefer Palpatine’s appointment to be sooner rather than later. As to the actual nature of the Jedi Purge, how do you imagine it? Long and gradual or sudden as in the film? Personally, I would like it to come creeping, so that the wary can see the writing on the wall, but still subtly enough so that the more trusting and loyal Jedi can be completely surprised (to use an improper analogue, like Röhm greeting the SS men who came to arrest him with affirmations of loyalty to the Führer). On that note, it would suit my sense of irony if some Knight or Lord fought his way through a horde of flunkies to get to the Emperor’s office, wishing to warn him of the “traitors”.

35 rS (0 BY) The Battle of Yavin, the recess of the Imperial Senate "for the duration of the emergency" begins

38 rS (3 ABY) The Battle of Hoth

39 rS (4 ABY, 0 ABE) The Battle of Endor, the public death of Palpatine, the installation of Pestage as Regent, Imperial Senate indefinitely dissolved

40 rS (5 ABY, 1 ABE) The Liberation of Brentaal IV. Pestage ousted in coup; ERC ousted in Isard's counter-coup, Isard installed as Regent, the reincarnation of Palpatine in his clone on Byss

41 rS (6 ABY, 2 ABE) The Year of the Four Emperors (Drommel, Triocolus, Kadann, and Shadowspawn)

42 rS (8 ABY, 3 ABE) The Liberation of Coruscant

43 rS (9 ABY, 4 ABE) The rehabilitation of the Galactic Emperor on Byss, The Bacta War, the Zsinj Campaign, the marriage of Han Solo and HRH Leia Organa

44 rS (10 ABY, 5 ABE) The Thrawn campaign, the assassination of Supreme Commander Thrawn, the Fall of the Cuitric Hegemony, the Imperial Coalition campaign, the Imperial Mutiny, the Loss of the Liberator and abduction of Skywalker

45 rS (11 ABY, 6 ABE) The reunification, the 2nd coalition campaign and Operation Shadowhand, the final death of Palpatine and the destruction of Byss

46 rS (12 ABY, 7 ABE) The Imperial Interim Council regency, the purges, the Emperor Carivus, the Second Liberation of Coruscant, and the dissolution of the Imperial State, the Constitutional Convention of the New Republic, the Daala incident

This is more or less the standard EU, right? Fine with me. But who is the 4th Emperor, Drommel? Is he from some God-forsaken sourcebook? Is it Gaen Drommel from the Adventure Journal? Did he ever have such power or aspirations?

[Darth Hoth]

The Jedi:

The Order of Jedi Knights are a theomilitant society of warrior monks and knights templar responsible for the foundation, defense and maintenance of the Old Republic. With their vast knowledge and exceptional abilities the Jedi led the defense of the ancient alliance of great powers (a sort of proto-Galactic Republic, think NATO or the UN during WWII) against the Sith Empire and other hostile polities. The Sith were more or less unified, and had no compunctions with outright conquest. If the proto-Republic was to survive, the great powers of the galaxy had to stand as one. While the Jedi stood for strength and unity, they also stood for liberty and equality. Revered as heroes and trusted as saints by the common citizens of the proto-Republic (having defended them against the Sith and others for generations) they were able to unite the great powers into a confederation. At the end of the final crusade that saw the Sith defeated, the Galactic Republic was finally established.

Overall agreement; I would perhaps stress the relatively secularised nature of the Order, as opposed to Lucas’s Buddhists. I envision them as the Knights Templar as they were in their later stages, powerful, religious but somewhat liberalised by the time of PrequelFic, sated by the glorious crusades of the past. Before the Clone Wars jump on them, that is . . .

The Order was independent of the Republic Authority, but had a constitutionally-sanctioned mandate to travel throughout the Republic, righting wrongs, settling disputes, ending conflicts, participating in military campaigns, exploring the galaxy, recruiting members and expanding (through peaceful means) the Republic's sphere of influence. While the Order maintained a strict doctrine of ethics and conduct, individual Knights-errant and their students enjoyed considerable autonomy and discretion in the execution of their duties.

A bit like the Templars, again, perhaps; if there were complaints, they would have to be forwarded to the highest Republican authority, rather than handled locally? I also imagine the Order to be rich; they should have actual holdings and the trappings of nobility (e.g., titles such as "Jedi Lord[/Baron]" or "Jedi Prince" from the canon), in a pseudo-anachronistic, vaguely feudal way – they defend the galaxy and have special rights in turn, &c. Ethics would be more chivalrous code and less monastic bullshit. There should definitely be a formal organisation, but it should also definitely be looser than what the prequels had.

By far their most controversial authority and morally ambiguous function was that of the inquisition. Citing the very real danger of Dark Jedi, resurgent Sith Lords and unstable, self-taught magi, the Jedi maintained a strict monopoly on the theoretical research and practical application of the Force. Individuals with potential were inducted from a very young age and those whose parents or person refused were registered and kept under (discreet) surveillance for the rest of their lives. However, joining the ranks of the Order was considered an unparalleled honor which very few refused. In keeping with the laws of the Republic and their own egalitarian philosophy, alternative religions and Force-centric belief systems were tolerated. Witchcraft, the active exercise of those beliefs (e.g. the Sith, Nightsisters, etc.), was not. The Order also cooperated with secular efforts to scientifically study Force-related phenomena, albeit grudgingly.

"Young" presumably being around seven or so for page service, not the toddler conscription of canon. Otherwise, no problems there. Their control should probably not be complete, though; they might miss some backwards or secretive sects, or generally leave them alone if they are deemed harmless.

I think they could take on pages and squires at a young age, but not infancy, and they should be allowed to leave, they should be given leave and a real education, they shouldn't be fully cut-off from real relationships (I can see that they'd not be allowed to marry and have children until they became retired and weren't 'active duty') and they should NOT use child soldiers! Otherwise, sounds good. Raptor, we got a chronology discussion in PSW, check it out until we get the thread properly chopped up.

Strong agreement on all points but the marriage one. I would have no problem with a serving Knight being engaged or married, as per Raptor.

[Darth Hoth]

Nobility:

The Peerage of the Empire

(Grand Prince of the Empire?)*
Prince of the Empire*
(Grand Duke of the Empire?)
Duke of the Empire
Marquess of the Empire
Count of the Empire
Viscount of the Empire
Baron of the Empire

The Baronetage of the Empire

Baronet of the Empire

This is a combination of the Napoleonic French, Russian, British, and German systems.

*Analogy to the Russian usage of the title knyaz and velikiy kynaz, considered the highest titles of nobility, "prince" and "grand prince," respectively. Velikiy kynaz is traditionally translated as "Grand Dukes," but is more properly translated "Grand Princes" or "Great Princes".

No objections to the hierarchy in principle. Do we shoehorn in a specific "Lord" title to account for EU uses of that as a general term for nobility, or do we ret-con the various Lords to Barons? Another question, how do the titles relate to the Throne? For example, as I am sure you know, in Russia, the title of Grand Duke/Prince was typically granted to the sons of Tsars/Emperors and their lines, but obviously it does not have that specific meaning here. Are all titles newly minted and awarded with the coming of the Empire, or are they recognitions of an older tradition (such as the Tagge barony)? If so, what was nobility like under the Republic?

More broadly, just how feudal do you imagine the Empire to be? Is a title an honour and fun thing that might be prestigious at court, or does it carry with it grants of land, as per Fel in X-wing? Obligations of service? Feudal rights over subjects?

[Darth Hoth]

Heh, I was being hyperbolic. Clearly I do like some things about the prequel films, the ROTS novel in particular, and plenty of other EU. Maintaining it in bloc will probably be too difficult so it should be discarded. However, if anything Hoth and I are nostalgic and will keep as much as we can. My personal vision of Episode III doesn't deviate very much, and I'd like to keep characters relatively similar and keep scenes, stuff like that. I'd like to have devious Sith like Maul and Dooku. We'll see what we can do. I'd like to see what Hoth thinks.

Well, I never really got all that deep into PrequelFic thinking, focussing more on the EU-Fic proper. But overall, I am not very enthusiastic for the prequels; if we are redoing them, I would call clean house. That would not mean that we would not reuse particular characters, ideas, or scenes, as you proposed, but given very different mechanisms for the structure of the Republic, the Clone Wars, Palpatine’s rise to power, the Great Purge &c., I think it would be difficult to retain much of even RotS as it looked on screen. The same themes should be there, broadly speaking, but not the actual execution.

Oh, and Hoth, I agree. The PT Republic fucking sucks along with its Jedi, my defense of them in other threads was as much my own private desire for them not to suck so much as it was factual. They totally blow and had what happened coming. But I would like to make it a bit less black/white and more poetic and tragic than that.

That was essentially the crucial point of my last, lengthy reply to your objections to my idea. A halfway sane Republic allows your model to make sense. Glad we remain in agreement.

[Darth Hoth]

As for the original thread in general, it has grown so much that point-by-point replying would be tiring and take massive amounts of time as it stands. Rather, I shall comment on particular ideas that were discussed.

*I like Illuminatus’s model for the Imperial Remnant; some sort of ad hoc blank cheque being conferred by a somewhat legitimate authority makes sense. In the actual story, we should perhaps also explore more in detail how Pellaeon forged his mini-Empire, something that was never addressed in a satisfying faction in the canon.

*For the Jedi Purge, I would envision a gradual pogrom of some sort, underpinned by Palpatine secretly manipulating public opinion against them – perhaps with show trials against prominent Jedi, allegations of various crimes and immorality, &c., as Phillip did with the Templars. Yet it should be subtle enough at first that the Jedi think they can fight it legally – see my post above with the surprised Jedi "loyalist". Depending on circumstances and the consensus here, some Jedi might still set off the actual Purge by his own bumbling as Windu did. Darth Vader should, needless to say, play a prominent part, but it should not be a one-man show. For example, have Hethrir (or if he is too young, Pestage or someone else; I am uncertain on his background) hold grand show trials against a few great Masters (Or Lords/Princes). Show the Inquisitorius being set up as partly the successor of the Jedi, partly a mechanism to control them – one might perhaps even be bold and simply have it be an Imperialised version of the Jedi "Inquisition" that Raptor hinted at and TotJ brought up. Conflicts of interest should be a factor for the Jedi, as individual Masters might be offered amnesty or even positions of power in Palpatine’s service if they help wipe out their kin – Jerec would be one of those who take this offer.

*Broadly, the older the Empire is, the better, with the constraints IP mentioned.

*Han is 29 in Year Zero? Odd; I remember him being 33 by then. Of course, the source for that was some gaming magazine, so it might be of dubious value.

*I elaborated on my idea of the Jedi above; what do you think, Illuminatus, Raptor, everyone?

*The Clone Wars, then. My vision there was, as I said, a Thirty Years War-ish series of interconnected, somewhat muddled conflicts.

Here is a quick draft in broad terms: The Wars might break out for some initially trivial reason – perhaps the Chiss or someone else being angry with some intrusion, perhaps some Republican law or edict irritating some local culture, I know not what – with the Republic making some half-hearted negotiation attempt, but no one realising just how bad it is. The Jedi, on the urging of the Senate, then try to put the conflict down by force, but fail miserably and take relatively major losses, probably due to Palpatine’s machinations (this failed expedition might incidentally replace Outbound Flight as the cause of C’baoth’s death – just an idea). This sets whoever is causing trouble – by now a rather greater faction – against them and unites them, in a way akin to Geonosis, and they end up having to fight a major war for their lives that the Republic proper gradually ends up more entangled in. (This also gives ammunition for anti-Jedi "Peace Protesters" or an analogue who might claim that "Jedi interference" set the Wars off – the Republic did, of course, but they might avoid the flak.)

The Republic might initially be paralysed, since the Wars start as a civil war between members, and only become actively involved as a coherent entity later, probably due to Palpatine’s lobby. In the first part, the Wars might very well be background, if not for the Jedi fighting "on the ground", and the story be about rooting out obstructionists and the "enemy within" and getting the Republic to actually DO something. A bit akin to NJO – our OR should not be nearly as stupid, but on the other hand it is deeply divided and has not faced a major war in centuries, having grown to a large extent reliant on the Jedi to keep the peace (NOT like in the prequels, where they are their ONLY enforcers, but they have let their military become neglected, &c.).

When the Wars actually get going on the Republican/galactic level, their true scale should escalate over time, till they affect the entire Republic in a WW1-mobilised state. This should be at the climax, where or shortly after Palpatine takes power; after that, he leads them to victory, though there are numerous close calls. Throughout, up till close to the end, the Wars should be the kind of confused, Civil War-esque setting that the TYW or perhaps the Russian Civil War was – various discrete, quasi-independent factions contending along with the Republic proper. Think multiple front-lines, shifting alliances as fortunes and leaderships might change. The Jedi themselves might be waging a campaign as allies of the Republic, rather than part of its own forces – this also serves Palpatine’s purposes well in distancing them, if we go with him as a super-puppetmaster.

At the same time, we should not forget the grand scope – there should be fleet battles with thousands of warships at least, planets devastated, bioweapons unleashed, occult forces harnessed, you name it. Chaos, confusion and horror like only propaganda vids or 40k can be. The enemy is dastardly and pours out clones to swamp the Republic, which is forced to adopt mass conscription. Perhaps there are dark sorcerers who pour out beasts and spells, emphasising the quasi-fantasy setting. As Illuminatus said, there should be shades of grey - especially in the beginning, where things are much more ambiguous and various factions might simply be local patriots, libertarians, isolationists or whatnots (a bit like Jabiim in the Republic comics) - but by the end I see no problem in making the remaining enemies the ultimate evil, desperate diehards fighting on for a lost cause like one might imagine Nazi veterans. An occasional figure might be tragic, but overall they are deluded at best and evil fanatics at worst.

Once they are defeated, the victorious Palpatine is made Emperor and commences he rebuilding effort, which eventually culminates in his assumption of outright dictatorial power and the Purge I mentioned above. This would be where our rough approximate of RotS would be.

Just a few ideas, not all that thoroughly thought out; I have had a concept for this halfway going in my head since RotS came out, but no solid plans.

[Darth Hoth]

Oh, and sorry for "spamming" in posts; I tried to be comprehensive, and then divided them by topic for the sake of clarity of content.

[Illuminatus Primus]

All great stuff. I'm going to try and come up with a couple layered historical models to help us coherentize a concept of the prequel/rise of the Empire era.

Let's get back to post-ROTJ. I was thinking of rehabiliating Glove of Darth Vader, Hoth. Any ideas?

[Admiral Felire]

The problem with the Glove of Darth Vader is well, all of it. I mean it was an interesting read but so much of it was soo, problematic. So, I wish you luck on that.

By the way, how are we going to organize the moment right after RotJ movie ends. I mean relating to Imperial Fleet retreat and all that.

I ask because it has a lot to do with Pellaeon and how we are portraying him.

By the way, I think we should both dismiss and ignore the partying that occurs on all planets but Endor. No Coruscant, Bespin and Naboo as that is just plain stupid. Death of Emperor does not mean death of Imperial rule immediately.

[Darth Hoth]

All great stuff. I'm going to try and come up with a couple layered historical models to help us coherentize a concept of the prequel/rise of the Empire era.

Let's get back to post-ROTJ. I was thinking of rehabiliating Glove of Darth Vader, Hoth. Any ideas?

Well, first of all we should attempt to integrate it into the rest of the EU, instead of having it living in a vacuum. We should go by the ret-cons already in effect - e.g., Trioculus's government is set up in opposition to Isard on Imperial Centre. Perhaps one could tilt it to his backers primarily being (professed rather than convinced, in some cases) Palpatine loyalists, who either follow him because he is (supposedly) the Imperial Prince or because they believe this will lend greater legitimacy to their government. Thus, it can have overtones of both royalism and personality cult. The Prophets add their aspect, of course; do we go with them being impostors, or should we use the actual Kadann et al? If we are to stick with the premises as far as possible, probably the former.

We should definitely make it more mature however we can. Needless to say, outright shit and "character assassination" should go if it cannot be tastefully ret-conned (e.g., Han having a happy little sub-urban villa in the clouds. . . ). The problems from the Thrawn Trilogy about micromanagement and minimalism also return x10 and need to be addressed. Overall, this one will need more work on realism than most. The scale alone makes TTT look like Lensmen.

As for the actual plotlines, centered on Kiddie Ken, I am uncertain of just how much we should alter or just rip out. I believe the focus should be changed in most cases, at least. What are your thoughts?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Clearly it should be a court party which decides to move in opposition to Isard as Regent. Perhaps it counts a large number of governors and Moffs amongst it, and perhaps it is the components of the Emperor's Ruling Circle that didn't decide to toe her line and keep their heads down with Dangor.

I had an idea that the "Church of the Dark Side" was not formally called that, but rather that's a slur by the New Republic; that the necromantic faith was designed to split the masses from the party apparatus of COMPNOR, which has its own faction (led by Kaine). So basically Pestage (real) becomes Regent, the COMPNORites decide that with Palpatine dead, its time to finish the revolution and Kaine manages to try and lead opposition to Pestage. Pestage founds the Church in conjunction with Isard for disinformation. Have it that it was rumored and known that a group of Jedi soothsayers (who remained loyal) were secret advisors to the Emperor (this obviously secretly being the Prophets of the Dark Side, but few outside the heirarchy knew who they really were, hence the rumor). So impostors are produced to lead a necromantic faith in the Emperor, which manages to deprive the mass support to the party apparatus for their move against Pestage. Kaine leaves for exile in his governorate with what is left of his power base and sets up the Pentastar Alignment. So Isard takes power, kills off the biggest rivals to her (and ahem coincidentally those major rivals of Dangor in the ERC, because they're both wreckers and in on Palpatine's return conspiracy). The NR has cut off the Alignment from Isard, fortunately for Kaine, and the NR and Kaine more or less avoid each other - the NR doesn't want a second front in the rear, and Kaine wants to wait out for a better day. What's left of the ERC clusters into three factions, the coupists (the ERC faction which spearheaded the coup against Pestage (clone) and composed of rivals to Dangor), which is more or less completely purged and dispersed by Isard; the collaborators (the Dangor coalition); and the oppositionists (the fence-sitters during the run-up to the Pestage coup who now have second-thoughts about Isard). The third faction is particularly agitated because Isard's centralization and consolidation policies have been undermining their power base (many of them are governors and sponsors of governors, whose prerogatives are being assumed by Isard's wartime government). The oppositionist faction of the ERC (clustered around the court party known facetiously as 'the Central Committee' of Grand Moffs or even the tongue-in-cheek 'Mofference') allies itself with Legitimists, and finds an unlikely ally in the Prophets of the Church, who've since leveraged their influence over the masses into power and patronage and drifted significantly from their original Imperial Intelligence orbit (and from Isard). The Church resolves to back a Legitimist candidate with a government formed mostly from amongst the oppositionist ERC. This is the political background I've developed. Who is "Triocolous" exactly, where he comes from, and what his background is we'll decide on. I haven't actually read and never owned GoDV, so you'll have to help me, Hoth. We'll have to decide how much to keep.

[Admiral Felire]

Illuminatus Primus, it seems that what your doing would be very political and insider and all that. So yeah, I am all for it, I love stories with a political bent. It also sounds quite interesting and it would be fun to read in some sort of story or article based format.

[Darth Raptor]

What should the Church be called then? I agree that "Church of the Dark Side" is absurd for something that's supposed to attract popular support. Church of Palpatine? Church of the Immortal Emperor? The Imperial Cult? The Ecclesiarchy?

[montypython]

Here is a provisional rank setup for the SAGroup, CompForce and CompForce Assault (for discussion and consideration) at the Battle of Yavin, from lowest to highest:

SAGroup:
Youth ranks:
Youth member
Section Leader
Senior Section Leader
Band Leader
Senior Band Leader
Cadre Leader
Senior Cadre Leader
Unit Leader
Senior Unit Leader

Adult leadership ranks:
Area Leader
Senior Area Leader
Staff Leader

CompForce:
Enlisted:
Trooper
Senior Trooper
Assault Trooper
Section Leader
Senior Section Leader
Troop Leader
Senior Troop Leader
Chief Troop Leader

Officers:
Junior Assault Leader
Senior Assault Leader
Assault Unit Leader
Senior Assault Unit Leader
Standard Leader
Brigade Leader
Group Leader
Senior Group Leader
Supreme Group Leader
Supreme Staff Leader

CompForce Assault Ranks are the same as the base organization with some small differences:
Brigade Leader, Group Leader, Senior Group Leader, and Supreme Group Leader are replaced with Brigadier, Major General, Lieutenant General and General respectively.

(Ranks are derived from Hitler Youth, SA and SS ranks, along with Harry Turtledove)

My view is that CompForce resembles a mix of both SA Feldherrnhalle and Waffen-SS units, which explains the particular setup here.

[montypython]

Here's a possible revised rank setup for the EUfic, for discussion:

Imperial Army:
Enlisted:
Trooper
Senior Trooper
Lance corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Senior Master Sergeant
Sergeant Major

Warrant Officer
Chief Warrant Officer
Master Warrant Officer

Commissioned Officers:
Cadet
Second Lieutenant
First Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Lieutenant Colonel
Colonel
High Colonel
Brigadier
Major General
Lieutenant General
General
High General
Surface Marshal
Grand Marshal

Combined military/political ranks:
Governor
Moff
Grand Moff

Imperial Navy:
Enlisted:
Spacehand
Senior Spacehand
Petty Officer
Chief Petty Officer
Master Chief Petty Officer

Warrant Officer
Chief Warrant Officer
Master Warrant Officer

Commissioned Officers:
Cadet
Ensign
Sub Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Senior Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain
Line Captain
Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral
High Admiral
Grand Admiral


Supreme Commander (or an Executor)

[Karmic Knight]

What should the Church be called then? I agree that "Church of the Dark Side" is absurd for something that's supposed to attract popular support. Church of Palpatine? Church of the Immortal Emperor? The Imperial Cult? The Ecclesiarchy?

I like Church of Imperial Order or Church of the Immortal Emperor.

[Admiral Felire]

Church of the Immortal Emperor sounds cool in my opinion.

I also don't have a problem with those ranks.

[Vehrec]

Ok, I've been thinking about the Mon Remonda in context with the whole Han Solo vs Warlord Zinji thing. First, it needs to be longer, somwhere between ten and fifteen times longer if it is to go directly toe-to-toe. On the other hand, it might be some sort of Star Battlecruiser, trading off durability which Mon Cal ships have in spades for some speed to fight Iron Fist. Anyways, we definately need something that can challenge a Star Dreadnaught. So I was thinking, arm it with plenty of Super-Heavies. The kind that melt Ice Moons 1000 km wide.

[Admiral Felire]

Here is the question, would the Rebellion manage to actually procure any super-heavy ships, and if they did procure it do you think they could man it. I mean it cannot be easy for them to get 400,000 people to crew a single ship when having many more smaller ships is better.

Plus, as we already know, the Rebels never really had that much infrastructure. They were a smalltime (relatively anyway) terrorist group that had to travel throughout the galaxy never really resting that long at a particular point. And with the exception of Mon Calamar they did not have permanent worlds that they owned with any sort of advanced industrial or personnel resources.

Also, couldn't a smaller ship be designe dto fight and defeat a larger ship. Now I am not talking about a fighter destroying a star destroyer, but if the size disparity is not that great then couldn't the smaller better enhanced ship win?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not by the difference between the canonical 1.2 km Mon Remonda and the 19 km Iron Fist. A lot of the post-Endor support (probably a great majority) will be donated and pledged war materiel and troops from breakaway dominions and client states from the Empire, and defections from the Armed Forces (I've been modeling a lot of the galactic society off of Germany, and I'm thinking that the Generationals of the Armed Forces may be pretty conservative and Republican in character, but stuck around out of respect for Palpatine, a lot more of those sympathizers might leave, especially as the post-Endor ruling class fucks up). Not to mention, by this time the New Republic is the dominant galactic superpower, and must have some sort of developed state apparatus and infrastructure, and conventional military (or at least putting up a decent show of it).

[Admiral Felire]

Yeah, that makes sense. The difference between a kilometer long starship and a 19 km long starship is like a fighter to a star destroyer, the stardestroyer wins.

I also agree with the point that the Alliance will be getting a lot of resource support once it destroys the Emperor.

I also agree that as time gets moved forward their military forces will go from that which they can take and steal to that which they designed purely for combat using the industrial and shipbuilding resources of the foremost purveyors in the galaxy. Which means their ships will go from military nightmares to actual ships designed for war and other such actions.

Which means they will go from a meager force (remember, the Rebel force at the Battle of Endor included every Rebel in the galaxy. I consider this to be those resistance fighting on the galactic scale, not those just fighting on their home worlds or sectors. That is slightly different.

But it does mean that the Rebels go from a small force to a huge outcropping of military personnel and resources in a relatively short amount of time. Couldn't that cause some problems in resource management that would make interesting stories for us.

You know what, I wouldn't be surprised if some sector governments (the Moffs in charge) said to the Rebels. Look I'll join you but you allow me to stay in charge, I'll modify some of my ways and practices but I will still rule this little tiny sector. You gain support, I do not die - we all win.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Here's an idea for a rank system, pretty provisional (I "stretched" the rank system, such that admirals and generals are still, relative to the scale of society, very high ranking officers, and a post captain still captains the main line warships - which keeping with Saxtonian scale should be very large - as opposed to just stacking on top; I developed this from discussions with Publius and consulting his notes):

SUPREME COMMANDER

Supreme Commander Lord High Admiral/Lord High Constable/Lord High Marshal/Lord High Logothete (part of me would like there to be a common rank regardless of the original service of the SCAFI, maybe "Generalissimus of the Armed Forces"? Also an appropriate title if a civilian, with the courtesy style of "Lord.")

NAVY

Grand Admiral
Admiral of the Navy (special rank of the First Space Lord and Chief of Naval Operations [1SL/CNO])

O-17 Fleet Admiral
O-16 Admiral General
O-15 High Admiral
O-14 Admiral
O-13 Vice Admiral
O-12 Rear Admiral
O-11 Counter Admiral
O-10 Commodore
O-9 Line Captain
O-8 Captain
O-7 High Commander
O-6 Commander
O-5 Sub-commander
O-4 Lieutenant Commander
O-3 Lieutenant
O-2 Sub-lieutenant
O-1 Ensign
Officer Candidate Midshipman

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy?

E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer
E-7 Chief Petty Officer
E-6 Petty Officer First Class
E-5 Petty Officer Second Class
E-4 Petty Officer Third Class
E-3 Spaceman
E-2 Spaceman Apprentice
E-1 Spaceman Recruit

ARMY

Surface/Field Marshal General?
Marshal General of the Armies (special rank of the Chief of the Imperial General Staff/Commander-in-chief of the Forces [CIGS/CINCFOR])

O-17 Surface/Field Marshal
O-16 Colonel General
O-15 High General
O-14 General
O-13 Lieutenant General
O-12 Major General
O-11 Brigadier General
O-10 Brigadier
O-9 High Colonel
O-8 Colonel
O-7 Sub-colonel
O-6 Lieutenant Colonel
O-5 High Major
O-4 Major
O-3 Captain
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-1 Second Lieutenant
Officer Candidate Cadet

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Sergeant Major of the Army?

E-9 Sergeant Major
E-8 Master Sergeant
E-7 Sergeant First Class
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-5 Sergeant
E-4 Corporal
E-3 Private First Class
E-2 Private
E-1 Private Recruit

MARINES (I've thought of giving them sort of their own rank system, based on Drakian cases and some of Marina O'leary's use, this is the most provisional; also considered using the French system: "General of [unit type]," etc.)

Captain General of the Marines of the Empire (special rank of the Commandant General Imperial Marines [CGIM])

O-17 General of Marine
O-16 Colonel General
O-15 High General
O-14 General
O-13 Lieutenant General
O-12 Major General
O-11 Brigadier General
O-10 Brigadier
O-9 High Colonel
O-8 Colonel
O-7 Sub-colonel
O-6 Lieutenant Colonel
O-5 High Major
O-4 Major
O-3 Captain
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-1 Second Lieutenant
Officer Candidate Midshipman

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Sergeant Major of the Marines?

E-9 Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant
E-8 Master Sergeant/First Sergeant
E-7 Gunnery Sergeant
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-5 Sergeant
E-4 [Lance?] Corporal
E-3 Trooper/Private First Class
E-2 Trooper/Private
E-1 Trooper/Private Recruit

INTELLIGENCE (highly theoretical, more or less entirely based of Publius' notes and speculation; I want to cite him especially here)

Director of Imperial Intelligence (special rank of the Superintendent General of the Ubiqtorate)

O-17 Director General of Intelligence
O-16 Director General
O-15 Executive Director
O-14 Director
O-13 Sub-director
O-12 Deputy Director
O-11 Assistant Director
O-10 Chief Inspector
O-9 High Inspector
O-8 Inspector
O-7 Sub-inspector
O-6 Assistant Inspector
O-5 Spectator Major
O-4 Spectator
O-3 Sub-spectator
O-2 Neotenant
O-1 Sub-neotenant
Officer Candidate ??Neotenant Candidate??Cadet??

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Master Technarch of Imperial Intelligence?

E-9 Master Technarch
E-8 Senior Technarch
E-7 Chief Technarch
E-6 Technarch First Class
E-5 Technarch Second Class
E-4 Technarch Third Class
E-3 Technician
E-2 Technician Apprentice
E-1 Technician Recruit

As for the COMPNOR goons; there is a seperate New Order Party and COMPNOR; we could use SWified Nazi Party ranks for the former and something else related for the latter. As for COMPForce, I think Observ needs SWified SA or Algermine-SS ranks; Assault should use SWified Waffen-SS ranks.

My NRDF ranks would be broadly similar, except they don't have special grades; Fleet Admiral is replaced with Admiral of the Fleet (and the head of the Navy is one), maybe replace Surface/Field Marshal for their Army, haven't decided.

I like the Church of the Immortal Emperor (they don't dispute he died, so perhaps a better name would be "Church of the Emperor Resurrected", "Church of the Emperor Reborn", or "Church of the Emperor Reincarnate"), but "church" really has specific Christian meanings and connotations I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Something like "The Ecclessia of the Noble Confessors of the Emperor Reincarnate" for the actual body of believers, "Imperial Reincarnatism" (by supporters) and "Palpatinic Necrolatry [worship of the dead Palpatine]" (by opponents). Figuratively called "Submission to Prophecy" (heh, a play on Islam) also by adherents. Its led by the Most Wise Prophetic Synod consisting of supposedly the secret (but widely rumored) body of experts of esoterica and Jedi soothsaying which advised and guided the wise old Emperor. They know prophesize his return and lead the body of those wish to pay fealty and respect to the great sovereign and search for signs of and to precipitate his return.

[Admiral Felire]

Okay, the ranks up to High Admiral work. High Admiral is the rank of an officer that commands a Sector Group.

What we need is to figure out ranks of officers who command more than one Sector Group. And at this point they are more office workers than they are day-to-day overseers of the military units they command.

I know its an official rank but I do not like Admiral General, I think its kinda clunky and I appose it.

I do agree with you placement of Grand Admiral above the normal chain of command. Their authority and imperium (in a way) is pretty much all encompassing when it comes to naval assets. As I said before, a Grand Admiral could travel into a sector and just declare that all naval assets are his to do as he wishes - that is his prerogative. They are quite rare as well.

I also agree with the Space Lord aspect.

I understand the point about Fleet Admiral, I just have a somewhat problem when we consider that Fleets are actually an official level of the OOB of the Imperial Navy. And I know that it might be accurate, but I do want to point out, that in the Imperial Sourcebook Fleet Admirals command fleets. Which mean they are one rank below High Admiral.

I wish we had a Sector Admiral which we could use as the commander of a sector group. Above the Sector Admiral would be the High Admiral. And then above that something else.

Here is a thought, the Sector Group is the largest general grouping of naval might. Anything above the Sector Group is just multiple sector groups (with their own High Admirals) working together.

So, using that, couldn't we just have their be a rank of Lord Admiral to represent their status as more of a commander of multiple High Admirals and their Sector Groups.

On Army ranks I dislike Colonel General, I think its clunky no matter how accurate it seems.

I also think that the Grand Admiral equivalent could be Grand Marshal, it works with the upper ranks above General as they lead into Marshals.

I think that the Stormtrooper ranks should be a much simpler array of ranks. I think that they should also have the ranks of the Army. We should also look at the ranks of the Clone army for some ideas (not automatics, just ideas).

By the way what are the Technarchs and where do they come from?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Okay, the ranks up to High Admiral work. High Admiral is the rank of an officer that commands a Sector Group.

Not anymore. I want to free up the upper ranks. So I pushed the admirals further up. Don't forget, the average sector group described in the Imperial Sourcebook might be outmassed by 1! Executor-class. And the largest craft should still be commanded by captains.

What we need is to figure out ranks of officers who command more than one Sector Group. And at this point they are more office workers than they are day-to-day overseers of the military units they command.

I intend for the upper ranks (General, Admiral, Director and up) to serve that purpose.

I know its an official rank but I do not like Admiral General, I think its kinda clunky and I appose it.

I'm going to use a historical model for self-consistency and coherency. Not an idiosyncratic one based on gut-feelings. If you have a better proposal and an argument for why it is better, I'm willing to take that into consideration.

I understand the point about Fleet Admiral, I just have a somewhat problem when we consider that Fleets are actually an official level of the OOB of the Imperial Navy. And I know that it might be accurate, but I do want to point out, that in the Imperial Sourcebook Fleet Admirals command fleets. Which mean they are one rank below High Admiral.

Yeah, I can countermand the ISB at will. It also has commodores outranking admirals. The fleets in the OOB of the ISB are smaller in complexity than many larger ships in the Imperial Starfleet. I don't want a commissioned officer system where half or more of the ranks are flag/general/director officers. Especially since the NRDF uses a "mere" Admiral of the Fleet as the head of the entire military. To say nothing of very high responsibility admirals and generals like Motti and Tagge, and Rogriss.

I wish we had a Sector Admiral which we could use as the commander of a sector group. Above the Sector Admiral would be the High Admiral. And then above that something else.

We can. But instead I stretched the system in every direction, not just the top. Really, planetary armies should register merely field officer rank in the Empire, honestly.

Here is a thought, the Sector Group is the largest general grouping of naval might. Anything above the Sector Group is just multiple sector groups (with their own High Admirals) working together.

And for formations of the properly scaled society, like even the traffic control of Coruscant, which completely overwhelm the OOB system of the ISB (to say nothing of the host of ships exceeding the size of the ISD, for which there is no room and no means to accommodate them; the ISB considers the ISD, a small ship, to be a line unit in of itself [it actually claims that it ought to be a squadron unit but the Navy fudged it for more SDs, damn minimalism]).

So, using that, couldn't we just have their be a rank of Lord Admiral to represent their status as more of a commander of multiple High Admirals and their Sector Groups.

Lord Admiral is not a sensible rank for anything other than the highest grade of naval officer or a subsidiary rank of the Throne. What should we do, just keep going up and up and up? The Empire doesn't have an Emperor of Emperors of Emperors of Emperors. The entire scale and perspective of society has shifted upwards; the galactic government is their equivalent of nation-states. The average planet is something like our equivalent of a small town at best.

On Army ranks I dislike Colonel General, I think its clunky no matter how accurate it seems.

I think we need to describe our disputes with more than appeals to bellyfeel.

I also think that the Grand Admiral equivalent could be Grand Marshal, it works with the upper ranks above General as they lead into Marshals.

I disagree. The equivalent of Grand Admiral is Field Marshal General or Surface Marshal General if you prefer. Grand Marshal is a superlative Japanese rank, and if you want to use a Japanese model, I'll consider it, but that will change other things.

I think that the Stormtrooper ranks should be a much simpler array of ranks. I think that they should also have the ranks of the Army. We should also look at the ranks of the Clone army for some ideas (not automatics, just ideas).

Yeah I'm not sure about the Marines.

By the way what are the Technarchs and where do they come from?

They are invention (credit goes to Publius). They are senior NCOs in Imperial Intelligence. Imperial Intelligence is an armed service like Navy, Army, and the Marines, and it should have its own enlisted ranks.

[Admiral Felire]

About Admiral General, how about that not all militaries use it and that I don't think it fits here.

And honestly, since I am in this project my opinions matter on whether we utilize it as a common thing. Now its not the only opinion that matters, but it matters. I dislike them and do not then they have the right feel. Isn't that the point of this, to give Star Wars the right feel again?

My official vote on that is not to use it, its not needed, it doesn't work and it shouldn't be there. It the same with the Colonel General thing. I vote that we do not use it.

I say that if we are going to use Grand Admiral for the Navy then we should use Grand something for the army, and in this case its either General or Marshal. Marshal works fine. Uniformity between the services is not a bad thing.

Nor do we have to stick with one real world culture to make our rank structure. We are talking about an military that comes from an entire galaxy. They probably have taken things from multiple sources and if it works it works and we should use it.

Just because we change the numbers within the Sector Group does not mean we are changing the actual category of the Sector Group. It makes sense that the largest normal unit of military operation is the group assigned to the sector, as that is the central organizational level within the Empire.

Oversectors will have more than one Sector Group, and specialized detachments might have either less than a Sector Group or many Sector Groups at their command.

On the Intelligence ranks, I think that the Imperial Intelligence should just use normal bureaucratic agency ranks not made up ranks that come out of nowhere. I like what Publius does, but I don't think that this makes any sense. And despite us using Publius as 'canon' it doesn't mean we cannot change what he wrote.

I vote that the Intelligence uses normal organization ranks.

--

I am not talking about planetary armies. I am talking about those assigned to Sectors of the galaxy. Why should we change the fact that Sector Groups are the premier unit in the galaxy. It works fine for me. More important sectors will have higher ranked admirals in command.

___


I am somewhat hesitate on naval ranks O-7, O-5, O-2. In your opinion what would they do, why are they present.

Does High Commander a rank used on the largest of ships. So the Captain is in command, has multiple High Commanders, and each High Commander oversees a Commander of a of particular section or department of the ship.

I have no problem with O-8 to O-15. Nor do I have a problem with O-17. This is navy of course.