Toby Keith Advocates [Racial] Lynching?

[Gaidin]

Has a song ever gone into absolutely great detail about what the lyrics talk about much less address counter arguments?

[Darth Wong]

Has a song ever gone into absolutely great detail about what the lyrics talk about much less address counter arguments?

Why does it need to go into great detail? Ethical people think of the "good old days in the South" with instinctive revulsion, not nostalgia. The broad strokes of this particular painting are ugly as hell, and you don't need to delve into "great detail" to see that.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Watch the video. Firstly, Kieth and his family are from Oklahoma. Secondly, the video is about tracking downa WHITE murderer. In the video, the only people you see with nooses around their necks are frontier outlaws, and Willie Nelson's character has a flashback to Arizona, not Texas.

But continue to manufacture racism. Its a growth industry.

[Vendetta]

Doesn't that only reinforce the point, that lynching is about mob prejudice rather than justice?

There's a difference?

Mob "justice" is always going to go for the simplistically identifiable outsider, because they're less likely to be part of the mob. That the person targeted has anything to do with the crime they are being lynched for is pretty much irrelevant to the process, as long as the mob gets to vent it's anger on someone.

The only distinction in the race lynchings in the south is that the "crime" that predicated the lynchings was having the temerity to want to be treated like human beings.

[Big Phil]

Here's an interesting article about the man that some folks are calling a racist, redneck conservative who supports lynching black people.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/ ... 0758.shtml

Toby Keith: Voice Of The Patriotic
Sept. 10, 2006(CBS) Country singer Toby Keith has never backed off from a good fight and after 9/11 he had his fighting words ready.

In the fiercely patriot song, "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue" he tells all terrorist foes of America that "we'll stick a boot in your ass."

It received a lot of criticism. "Instead of people just saying, 'Hey, I don't like that song,' all of a sudden they call you names. 'You're a redneck, you're a right-winger, you're automatically a Republican. You're automatically all these things," he told CBS News correspondent Cynthia Bowers.

For the most part, the 6-foot-4-inch Keith sings about women and drinking and has sold upwards of 25 million albums. He also owns a growing chain of restaurants and this past week released his first movie, which is about a fading country singer.

First and foremost, Keith considered himself a songwriter.

"God's gift to me was to be a writer," he said. "And that's what I do best of all. And I'm as gifted at that — as anybody."

Keith grew up in Oklahoma and played football in high school and had a short stint as a semiprofessional player. He worked in the Oklahoma oil fields until the jobs there dried up and all the while he struggled to make it in country music.

His first record "Should've Been a Cowboy" was released in 1993 went to number one on the country charts.

But the song that made Toby Keith a superstar was his emotional "Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue." Keith says he wrote that song in 20 minutes, just days after the attacks — partly as a tribute to his father, who was a veteran. It's subtitled "The Angry American," and it doesn't mince words.

The song brought him a great deal of attention and he had a full-out feud with Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks, who called it "ignorant."

But Keith rode the song-and the controversy-all the way to bank and once again he had a number one hit. He followed that with "American Soldier," which has become a favorite of U.S. forces overseas, many of whom have gotten to know Keith. He spends a couple of weeks a year visiting them in USO shows.

"I just get to shake — pump their fists and thank 'em for — for what they're doing," he said.

His connection to the military is evident in the fans who came to see him just a few days ago in West Palm Beach, Florida.

"I wanna thank the boys and girls proud enough and brave enough to wear our country's uniform wherever they are in the world tonight," he said at the show.

But even Keith is having problems with the war in Iraq, but maintains that he is 100 percent behind the troops.

"When the Iraq war started, I was a little mad because we didn't finish what we started in Afghanistan," he said. "Our troops had to move on into Iraq. Our government asked them to go do it for whatever reason. We won't know for probably 20 or 30 years whether it was the right thing to do or not."

Although Keith has supported President George W. Bush, he says he is not a conservative.

"It's amazing how many Republicans call me for support. And then they go, 'You're a Republican right?' And you go, 'Well I'm actually a lifetime Democrat,'" he said. "And then they go, 'Oh, sorry.' And the Democrats want so bad — the real liberals really want to hate me. And then they go, 'I still hate you, but I can't believe you're a Democrat.' So I'm not a real political guy. I'm a very patriotic guy."

Keith says he trusts one person's instincts: his own. He runs his own record label now. And despite all the "drinkin' and cheatin'" songs, he's been married for 22 years, and has three kids. His latest album is called "White Trash with Money," inspired by an experience of his daughter's.

"Some sorority chick called my daughter a — said she shouldn't be in the sorority cause she's just white trash with money," Keith said. "And she laughed. And my wife was all upset. But I thought it was a great album title."

It's another example of the fight-back spirit he's carried through his life. Ask him about 9/11, and he's just as angry as he was when he wrote his most famous song almost five years ago.

And part of that patriotism is the fighting spirit he's carried through his life. He's just as angry about 9/11 today as he was when he wrote his most famous song five years ago.

"We're at war with the terrorists," he said. "And that if we don't try to do something about it, then it's gonna keep happening here until some of our freedoms are lost."

He ends every concert these days with his songs dedicated to the troops and 9/11: "American Soldier" and "Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue."

"If you believe in it enough, it's worth fightin' for," he said. "And if you're not gonna fight for it, then you deserve to be dictated to, you know — and I'm not willing to do that."

[Gaidin]

Why does it need to go into great detail? Ethical people think of the "good old days in the South" with instinctive revulsion, not nostalgia. The broad strokes of this particular painting are ugly as hell, and you don't need to delve into "great detail" to see that.

Video aside, I guess I just look forward to the day that my grandchildren get branded as homophobes when I tell my own back in the day story. Just because of the general vague picture our society paints regarding gay marrage, whether or not I support it(which I do).

[Darth Wong]

Errmm ... precisely what is it in that article which contradicts the notion that he's a typical flag-waving redneck? The part where it said that he was a high school athlete, who did manual labour before becoming a country and western singer who calls himself a "patriot"? CaptainChewbacca's notion that it's impossible for someone to be registered Democrat if he's a right-winger, as if Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman never existed?

[Glocksman]

It's (vigilante justice) a fairly common theme in country music.

Examples:

Charlie Daniels' Simple Man:

I ain't nothing but a simple man
Call me a redneck, I reckon that I am
But there's things goin' on that make me mad down to the core
I have to work like a dog to make ends meet
There's crooked politicians and crime in the street
And I'm madder than hell and I ain't gonna take it no more
We tell our kids to just say no
And then some panty waist judge lets a drug dealer go
And he slaps him on the wrist and he turns him back out on the town
Well, if I had my way with people sellin' dope
I'd take a big tall tree and a short piece of rope
And hang 'em up high and let 'em swing till the sun goes down

Chorus:
Well you know what's wrong with the world today
People done gone and put their Bibles away
There livin' by law of the jungle not the law of the land
Well the good book says it, so I know it's the truth
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
You'd better watch where you go
And remember where you've been
That's the way I see it I'm a simple man

Now, I'm the kind of man that wouldn't harm a mouse
But if I catch somebody breakin' in my house
I've got a twelve gauge shotgun waitin' on the other side
So don't go pushin' me against my will
I don't want to have to fight you but I durn sure will
So if you don't want trouble that you'd better just pass me on by
As far as I'm concerned there ain't no excuse
For the raping and the killing and the child abuse
And I've got a way to put and end to all that mess
You just take those rascals out in the swamp
Put them on their knees and tie 'em to a stump
And let the rattlers and the bugs and the alligators do the rest

Chorus

Hank Junior's A Country Boy Can Survive

The preacher man says it’s the end of time
And the Mississippi River she’s a goin’ dry
The interest is up and the Stock Markets down
And you only get mugged
If you go down town

I live back in the woods, you see
A woman and the kids, and the dogs and me
I got a shotgun rifle and a 4-wheel drive
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain’t too many things these ole boys can’t do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

Because you can’t starve us out
And you cant makes us run
Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raisin ole shotgun
And we say grace and we say Ma’am
And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn

We came from the West Virginia coalmines
And the Rocky Mountains and the and the western skies
And we can skin a buck; we can run a trot-line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

I had a good friend in New York City
He never called me by my name, just hillbilly
My grandpa taught me how to live off the land
And his taught him to be a businessman
He used to send me pictures of the Broadway nights
And I’d send him some homemade wine

But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
For 43 dollars my friend lost his life
Id love to spit some beechnut in that dudes eyes
And shoot him with my old 45
Cause a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

Cause you can’t starve us out and you can’t make us run
Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raisin ole shotgun
And we say grace and we say Ma’am
And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn

We’re from North California and south Alabam
And little towns all around this land
And we can skin a buck; we can run a trot-line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

If there's racism in it (Beer for my Horses), it's the 'dog-whistle' kind that's not obvious.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Errmm ... precisely what is it in that article which contradicts the notion that he's a typical flag-waving redneck? The part where it said that he was a high school athlete, who did manual labour before becoming a country and western singer who calls himself a "patriot"? CaptainChewbacca's notion that it's impossible for someone to be registered Democrat if he's a right-winger, as if Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman never existed?

I'm sorry, when did I say this? I must have had a stroke. I knew Toby was a democrat a long time ago, and I don't hold it against him.

[Darth Wong]

Why does it need to go into great detail? Ethical people think of the "good old days in the South" with instinctive revulsion, not nostalgia. The broad strokes of this particular painting are ugly as hell, and you don't need to delve into "great detail" to see that.

Video aside, I guess I just look forward to the day that my grandchildren get branded as homophobes when I tell my own back in the day story. Just because of the general vague picture our society paints regarding gay marrage, whether or not I support it(which I do).

Who gives a fuck about the video? Do you really think that the songwriting process and the video directing process are conducted at the same time? Van Halen's song "Jump" was inspired by an incident in which they saw someone standing on a building with a sadistic crowd yelling at him to "jump". But the video was David Lee Roth jumping on a trampoline.

As for the "back in the day" stories, if you act like "the old days" were wonderful, and those old days happened to be before the civil rights era, then yeah, you'd be a redneck racist.

[Darth Wong]

It's (vigilante justice) a fairly common theme in country music.

So is nostalgia for the 19th century, and an almost exclusively white fan base.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As for the "back in the day" stories, if you act like "the old days" were wonderful, and those old days happened to be before the civil rights era, then yeah, you'd be a redneck racist.

So, anyone who longs for a time before 1965 is a racist. Good to know. It couldn't be a desire for simpler living, or a slower pace of life, or for a return to a more rural or agricultural society.

Nope. Its gotta be racism.

[Darth Wong]

As for the "back in the day" stories, if you act like "the old days" were wonderful, and those old days happened to be before the civil rights era, then yeah, you'd be a redneck racist.

So, anyone who longs for a time before 1965 is a racist. Good to know. It couldn't be a desire for simpler living, or a slower pace of life, or for a return to a more rural or agricultural society.

Nope. Its gotta be racism.

Yes. Because that was a HORRIBLY FUCKING RACIST time, you stupid asshole. If you think that it was a better time anyway because of this sepia-tinged bullshit about "simpler living", then you are saying that this horrendous racism was not a big deal. Got it yet, fucktard? Don't you ever wonder why you never run into black people who wish they were back in the days of slavery or Jim Crow? That "simpler living" bullshit does not even come close to compensating for the horrors of that era, unless you think those horrors were no big deal.

[Glocksman]

Actually I assumed he was referring to the Old West. The old John Wayne movies and Bonanza came to mind. I don't even remember black people being showing in those movies very often. It was always some white guy with a mustache and a four in hands being strung up for being a horse thief.

At least that's the impression that popped in my head from reading the lyrics.

Same here.
It may or may not the the true history of the Old West, but it's the one people carry in their heads because of Hollywood.

Now if you put 'Alabama' or 'Georgia' instead of 'Texas' in the lyrics, the Old West association goes away and is replaced by something much more ominous.

[Coyote]

Well, to be honest, it's kinda hard to seperate it. The "good old days" when things were "simpler" meant you could say, do or act as you please without having to worry about the feelings of certain "uppity types" (nudge-wink). Hell, even them bitches knew their place was in the kitchin'.

Now folks have to tread all soft-like to avoid offendin', n'such.

I mean... it's there. Unspoken, perhaps, but... there.


EDIT: Hopefully it's obvious I'm being a little sarcastic here. The "good ol' days" weren't the best for Jews. It was one of those "Long as you know --and stick to-- your place, things'll be fine between us" kinda thing.

[Darth Wong]

Actually I assumed he was referring to the Old West. The old John Wayne movies and Bonanza came to mind. I don't even remember black people being showing in those movies very often. It was always some white guy with a mustache and a four in hands being strung up for being a horse thief.

At least that's the impression that popped in my head from reading the lyrics.

Same here.
It may or may not the the true history of the Old West, but it's the one people carry in their heads because of Hollywood.

Now if you put 'Alabama' or 'Georgia' instead of 'Texas' in the lyrics, the Old West association goes away and is replaced by something much more ominous.

I don't see how someone can become an adult and not draw an association between the 19th century South and inhumane subjugation of black people.

[Darth Wong]

Well, to be honest, it's kinda hard to seperate it. The "good old days" when things were "simpler" meant you could say, do or act as you please without having to worry about the feelings of certain "uppity types" (nudge-wink). Hell, even them bitches knew their place was in the kitchin'.

Now folks have to tread all soft-like to avoid offendin', n'such.

I mean... it's there. Unspoken, perhaps, but... there.

That's basically what I'm saying. It's a package deal; you can't say that you pine for the "good old days" without opening yourself up to what I consider a perfectly reasonable accusation that you don't have a problem with the way certain classes of people were treated back then. That's kind of what it means to say that you prefer a different era.

[Gaidin]

I don't see how someone can become an adult and not draw an association between the 19th century South and inhumane subjugation of black people.

According to my old Lit professor the stumbling block with symbolism is just this. A lot of it amusingly has a bit to do with traditional symbols, sometimes for the sake of making it more easily recognized. Hence the trip up with Texas being associated with the west and not the south, regardless of how far below that parallel it is a long with Georgia and Alabama.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Yeah, Mike's kinda right. Point conceeded.

I still like the song, though. Mostly for the chorus.

[Gaidin]

ghetto edit: not trying to argue the broad picture...never was. Just questioning whether toby was meaning to go "RACISM RAH RAH RAH!" even on an instinctual level.

[Glocksman]

Actually I assumed he was referring to the Old West. The old John Wayne movies and Bonanza came to mind. I don't even remember black people being showing in those movies very often. It was always some white guy with a mustache and a four in hands being strung up for being a horse thief.

At least that's the impression that popped in my head from reading the lyrics.

Same here.
It may or may not the the true history of the Old West, but it's the one people carry in their heads because of Hollywood.

Now if you put 'Alabama' or 'Georgia' instead of 'Texas' in the lyrics, the Old West association goes away and is replaced by something much more ominous.

I don't see how someone can become an adult and not draw an association between the 19th century South and inhumane subjugation of black people.

From the entertainment media.
Texas, despite having been part of the Confederacy, isn't seem in same cultural light as the 'Deep South' states in the east because of over a hundred years of Western dime novels, movies,comics, travelling shows, and TV.
The popular image of late 19th century Texas is cowboys and indians, not the Klan and racial lynchings.

Now we both know that Texas had it share of if it and then some, but that's not the popular image.

Shit, there's probably Americans who think you're living in an igloo or that you're a lumberjack in flannel who speaks French because you're Canadian.

[Darth Wong]

ghetto edit: not trying to argue the broad picture...never was. Just questioning whether toby was meaning to go "RACISM RAH RAH RAH!" even on an instinctual level.

He was meaning to go "good old days and good old southern boys rah rah rah", and like it or not, racism is part of that package. It probably wasn't his emphasis, but that's beside the point.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Shit, there's probably Americans who think you're living in an igloo or that you're a lumberjack in flannel who speaks French because you're Canadian.

If not there's one now who thinks that!

[Darth Wong]

Ignorance is no excuse for itself.

[Glocksman]

Ignorance is no excuse for itself.

No it's not, but it is an explanation of why a lot of people would look at you as if you were crazy for suggesting the song's about race.
Someone who knew a lot about 19th century race relations would listen to the song and hear the racial aspects that Joe Six Pack and Betty Winebox would miss altogether.

Joe and Betty hear it and think 'Clint Eastwood'.