Project: "EU-fic"

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think before the Clone Wars, the existing ships Lucrehulks, Dreadnaughts, whatever should be fucking old. Hundreds or thousands of years. However the breakout of general war will necessitate different tools of war than the past and most of the new ships will be designed for that, with a pittance later for ego and peacekeeping under the Empire (with old republican designs depleted by attrition or fatigue and for propoganda). The civil wars would have all the tooling and lines still at work somewhere, so I actually don't think much of any new designs should be produced except where there is production bottlenecks (i.e., the Empire needs a shitton of TIEs in six months, they can't ramp up production, so they supplement with other fighters like Preybirds or Cloakshapes or some old shit or local shit), or political favoritism (Mon Cals over Clone Wars and Imperial designs), or brief fads and hackneyed concepts for 'transformational' weapon systems and warfighting (think Future Crap Spreader shit like the "New Class"). I expect in the NJO arc they'll still be fighting general war with mostly Clone Wars equipment, because it does the job of fighting total/general war great and its a static galaxy, so why fix what isn't broken? I expect the heated up civil wars are ROTJ to see a return to Clone Wars equipment as its less manpower intensive and more suited for mobilization and general war than the peacekeeping and political requirements of the Imperial inter-war designs like the ISD.

I like the idea of Jedi as KNIGHTS not monk-philosophers. You COULD have different sects and trends within the Jedi ranging from your concept to glorified Republic spies and special forces but there should be a central core of semi-aristocratic knighthood. But different trends at the far-off fringes could resemble Lucastard Jedi (basically all killed off in the first couple months of the Clone Wars due to stupidity in combat), emo-philosopher Jedi of the original NJO, etc.

[Admiral Felire]

I agree with you first paragraph in its entirety. The pre-Clone Wars ships are either designs that are old, really old, or new ships constructed using ancient design plans. Like ancient in fact, with highly understood technology and all that.

Then the Clone Wars break out and new ships of war and commerce and all that are needed. And so they are introduced. The first TIES and ISDs and all that come from this period of time. The ones we later see are different, newer models, but nontheless use the same basic understandings that came from this era.

The post-Endor wars use both Old Republic, Clone Wars and Imperial era ships (as well as various alien designs that come out of nowhere).

Though the Empire will use things like ISD and they will have dozens if not hundreds of versions of different sizes and all that.

I want them to retain their mastery of self, their physical bodies and their minds. I like that as part of their training and philosophy and don't think it should be lost. This does not take away from their ability to act and kick ass as they need to. They need to have that as well. Understanding the body and mind does not make one emo, I don't want that either.

[Galvatron]

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if Lucas hadn't shoved the Jedi Council IN OUR FACES for three fucking movies.

If they'd remained mostly off-screen throughout the prequels (like Coruscant in the OT), I probably wouldn't loathe it so much.

As far as the ships go, I'd like to see the Executor as Admiral Tarkin's flagship during the Clone Wars. Meaning it's old. Maybe not hundreds of years old. But it's not new as in constructed just before TESB.

[Admiral Felire]

In my mind Yoda is listened to and respected, not because he is on the Council, but because he is like 900 years old and has been training Jedi for all that time. Its his personality rather than his position that makes him special.

And I can understand where your coming from, I don't share it as I like the PT Jedi, but I can understand it.

I disagree with you point on the Executor being Tarkin's ship. I think it makes sense that Palpatine would order an Executor custom build for his second in command. Though I have no problem with SSDs being seen in the Clone Wars era.

Just because they can have old ships doesn't mean they won't build new ones.

[ExarKun]

However this pans out, the Jedi should be massively powered down compared to prequels. Vader, Luke, and Obi-wan don't come across as that powerful in the OT, even though Vader and Luke are the most powerful ever. Just imagine how weak regular Jedi were.

Why would the jedi need to be "powered down?" The ones shown in the OT were a broken(literally and figuratively) man, a squire, and an old man who was out of practise. That is not a good statistical survey for the Jedi. While I don't agree with the ridiculously over powered video game characters, I do believe that the Jedi being powerful adds to the fantasy feel that the entire series evokes. Obi-Wan describes the Jedi as the defenders of peace and justice in ANH (I think, my memory is fuzzy) which seems impossible if they were just slightly more powerful than the average citizen.

Oh and if you want to see power in the OT, Luke causes multiple objects to orbit his body, while keeping himself upright on one arm, concentrating on all those tasks while at the same time engaging Yoda in a discussion (again if I remember right). Yoda effortlessly lifting Luke "most powerful ever" Skywalker's X-Wing from the swamp. Vader taking a damaged fighter craft and making it back to Civilization. Causing a proton torpedo to hit the exact spot needed to kill a giant battlestation. Obi-Wan talking to Luke from beyond the grave multiple times.

Those are telekinetic powers of sort, and I don't mind them. We see Vader killing someone from possibly kilometers away, so that's established. What I don't like is how the force gives them an edge in everything in life.

For example, they are the best pilots, just by virtue of being Jedi. Sure seeing little bit into the future gives them a slight edge, but if you're not trained, or don't like flying, how can you consistently be so good? Have we ever seen in EU or the movies a Jedi die while flying (I'm not counting the surprise attack by clones during the purge)? Even Obi-Wan, who hates flying, seems just as good as Anakin, the "best star pilot in the galaxy."

Then you have ridiculous acrobatics of old man like Yoda and Palpatine, thanks to the force. Why wasn't Obi-Wan using it in OT?

Then there's Anakin flying/slowing down his descent in Episode II.

I haven't really read much EU, so may be I'm wrong about all this. I do know that there is some other ridiculous stuff like Palpatine creating force storms that destroy a fleet of ships....

IMO, even the first episode was OK as regards to the Jedi; Obi-Wan, Jinn, and Maul all look decent, the next two make them little too overpowered, and then EU blows them out of proportion

[Galvatron]

I disagree with you point on the Executor being Tarkin's ship. I think it makes sense that Palpatine would order an Executor custom build for his second in command.

That's just it: prior to his death, I see Tarkin as being closer to the emperor than Vader. He'd occupy a similar role to that of Kinman Doriana from the Zahn books. By comparison, Vader's a noob.

[Admiral Felire]

ExarKun

Honestly, I think Jedi should be overpowered, overblown and beyond the level of normal men.

The Force is, after all, Magic and Jedi are pretty much highly powerful Wizards.

To me it shows that sometimes things are unfair, that some have powers others don't. And it also makes it so that one has to decide how to use that power - to use it to dominate others less powerful or to use it to help and work with others.

The power of Jedi should be high up, powerful and unrealistic. It is after all one of the fantastical aspects of Star Wars - its magic. And it shouldn't have limits.

Force Storms, destroying stars, controlling minds galaxies away, peering into the future and past, planets warped by the Force, all of it should exist.

The point to remember is that Force Users are rare, at least rarer than the standard galactic population. Which means that while yes, a situation would be easily solved if a Jedi was set on the mission, one cannot actually always do that. Which means their are so many things that others have to do.

I like my high powered, powerful, unequaled, awesome Force Users and I don't think they should be changed or downplayed.

Galvatron,

I do agree with you that Tarkin must be close - otherwise the Emperor would never had allowed him access to the power of a world destroying superlaser and battlestation. But at the same Vader is a Sith and I think he is on a different level than Tarkin (which is no where above, just different).

So, I don't see a reason why we should make the Executor a Tarkin ship. Now, I have no problem with a story that sees Tarkin on the forward port of a SSD commanding the forces in a battle either in the Clone Wars or the Empire era.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I disagree with you point on the Executor being Tarkin's ship. I think it makes sense that Palpatine would order an Executor custom build for his second in command.

That's just it: prior to his death, I see Tarkin as being closer to the emperor than Vader. He'd occupy a similar role to that of Kinman Doriana from the Zahn books. By comparison, Vader's a noob.

I don't think that at all. Vader has no job there whatsoever except as Palpatine's errend boy or watchdog; its Tarkin's castle. Kinman Doriana is actually a clueless bag man. He thinks he's working for Darth Sidious as an agent in Palpatine's administration (heh).

[Illuminatus Primus]

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if Lucas hadn't shoved the Jedi Council IN OUR FACES for three fucking movies.

If they'd remained mostly off-screen throughout the prequels (like Coruscant in the OT), I probably wouldn't loathe it so much.

As far as the ships go, I'd like to see the Executor as Admiral Tarkin's flagship during the Clone Wars. Meaning it's old. Maybe not hundreds of years old. But it's not new as in constructed just before TESB.

I definitely would like to see a close analog to the Executor-class peeking out as foreshadow and being used by high-ranking officers who'd later be part of Palpatine's retinue and the ruling class. I definitely agree Tarkin needs much more exposure front-and-center in the Clone Wars era. Did you catch what Publius did with him in The College of Moffs chapter of the New Order in Power? We definitely need to emphasize him, maybe a secular and on-the-war-front counterpart to Palpatine, encouraging Skywalker's authoritarian political sympathies, aggressive personality, and power-lust as they work together fighting the wars.

[Galvatron]

What, you don't agree that "Doriana's demise left a gap that Palpatine tried to fill with three other people: Darth Vader, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Mara Jade?"

I guess it doesn't really matter if the Executor was Tarkin's ship or not, but I'd like to see an old ship of the same class in service long before the OT.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You just missed me.

[Galvatron]

I can see Tarkin sanctioning the torture of enemy prisoners for information and convincing Anakin to do it for the greater good, foreshadowing Vader's predilection for torture in the OT.

He'd be the devil on Anakin's shoulder to Obi-Wan's angel. Hell, the emperor needn't even be involved in Anakin's fall if Tarkin does it for him. Which is what I'm aiming for anyway. Keep Palpatine off-screen. Less is more.

[Admiral Felire]

I agree with Illuminatus Primus' last post. I think that we should enhance Han's line about the Executor not being that rare by making such things somewhat common in the Clone Wars and forward. I also don't have a problem (and agree with) Tarkin being in command of one such huge ship. In addition the idea of him working with Anakin is a very good idea I think.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I can see Tarkin sanctioning the torture of enemy prisoners for information and convincing Anakin to do it for the greater good, foreshadowing Vader's predilection for torture in the OT.

He'd be the devil on Anakin's shoulder to Obi-Wan's angel. Hell, the emperor needn't even be involved in Anakin's fall if Tarkin does it for him. Which is what I'm aiming for anyway. Keep Palpatine off-screen. Less is more.

I like their relationship, actually. Palpatine shouldn't always be aloof. His relationship with the Skywalkers is the quintessential interaction of the Saga (the best part of ROTS by far). From his point of view, the Skywalkers are the only things like him in the universe. You get the point if he can't take them and remake them in his own image - the ultimate audience for him as an artist - then the whole thing wasn't even worth it.

Besides, I like the idea of the Sith, and Tarkin is too secular to be associated with that. But building an authoritarian Anakin who is more likely to side with his father figure the despot emperor over his Order? Sure.

[Admiral Felire]

Again I agree with Priumus, Palpatine is not the in the dark figure, I think he should be portrayed and that he should be present in the fall o fa lot of things. His machinations are one of the major points of Star Wars, as his dealing with the Skywalkers.

But I do not have a problem with Tarkin playing a part in Anakin's use of certain things, like torture and whatnot.

[Galvatron]

I liked the idea of the Sith before George Lucas turned Palpatine into one and introduced the Rule of Two. Now I think they suck and smack of minimalism.

And not to crib too much from Zahn, but I rather liked the scene from Outbound Flight where Kinman Doriana introduced Thrawn to Sidious via holonet. I envisioned something similar for Anakin's first encounter with the emperor even before reading that book.

[Admiral Felire]

I can take or leave the Rule of Two, its not that important to me. But I like the part about Palpatine being Sith, it makes sense considering what we saw of him in Return of the Jedi.

Onto the second point, if we use that in the way that Palpatine meets Anakin then how can we use it for when Doriana meets Thrawn, which must happen cause Thawn is that damm awesome.

I kinda liked the idea of Anakin being a Jedi but learning from Palpatine and Palpatine's friends (like Tarkin, for example). So while Anakin is away from Palpatine he is still close by.

[Galvatron]

Why not use it for Thrawn anyway? It's also how Asajj Ventress was introduced to Sidious.

Since OUR Anakin doesn't show up until some time in his mid-teens, he won't be on Naboo at age ten getting patted on his head by the newly-elected Chancellor Palpatine.

Come to think of it, is there some reason why we can't start Episode 1 with Anakin already at age 35 or so?

[Admiral Felire]

Well it depends on the general timeline of his birth and how it coincides with the Clone Wars. Which also is effected by when Palpatine is elected Chancellor.

But yeah, their probably won't be any patting heads on Naboo between kid Anakin and Palpatine.

No kid Anakin visible in the foreguard. Though if he is a kid in the Jedi Order then he will remain at a training center and not go on awesomely cute adventurers.

The question becomes - When does Episode 1 in our vision take place in. Because whenever it does that is when Anakin will be introduced I would think.

[Galvatron]

If I had my druthers, Episode 1 would begin with Obi-Wan showing up on Tatooine at Anakin's moisture farm to recruit him for yet another "damn fool idealistic crusade." Anakin would already be a veteran Jedi Knight and married to Luke's mother (Beru's sister), thus negating any possibility of repeating the whiny teenager and the putrid romance scenes of the real prequels.

[Admiral Felire]

Honestly, that is an option. It would work as much as anything else. I mean if the Clone Wars have been decades long then having him fight in them is not a big deal.

Hear is a thought.

Couldn't Episode 1 be before the Clone Wars start. Episode 2 be during the Clone Wars and Episode 3 be at the birth of the Empire. Wait, this doesn't work, the Purge is not at the birth of Empire.

Or Episode 1 can be middle, Episode 2 be at the birth of Empire and Episode 3 be at the point of the Purge.

Actually, that might work because it gives something epic for both 2 and 3.

Or we could have Episode 1 be at the start of the Clone Wars, Episode 2 at the rise of Empire and most end, and Episode 3 be a decade latter at the Fall and Purge.

While we are not making movies I think we should make the episodes be like general movie format, to keep the feel.

[Galvatron]

I'd have the Clone Wars take place before, during and after the PT.

The one that our heroes participate in would be the Mandalorian invasion of Alderaan.

I know everyone hates Mandalorians now because of Karen "the hottie" Traviss, but I wouldn't wank them out.

[evillejedi]

With the Inexpugnable being 3100m in diameter in the new KOTOR source book this makes the Mandalorian Dreadnaught provisionally a 2200 m vessel based on scaling diagrams from Dustin Weaver (unless we get a length on the Dread in the source book as well) With roughly 90% the reactor size of an ISD at this length, I think that fills the need for the Katana fleet. it fits historically as a design from the Old Republic even if it is derived from an enemy.

Adding an extra zero or two to the Katana fleet count would still make more sense, much better than a fleet of 600m ships that is equivalent to 4 ISDs in volume... With the mando dread at 200 ships an equivalency of 150 ISDs would provide the finder with a solid mobile fighting force from essentially no where.

the 600m dreadnaught can remain as a pocket light cruiser for dispensing local justice and can still claim the title of being 'based' on the older design.

We should also adjust down the crew complements on some of these ships to an amount that doesn't assume 5 shift ISB paranoia (unless that is a goal) and up the fighter complements to something in line with the actual capacities of the hangers (at least 300 tie l/n for an ISD)

The Mon Remonda should be at least promoted to a a transitional upgunned Home One+ mass vessel to give it the survivability to engage Iron Fist for any length of time and make its destruction at Mon calimari more than a foot note.

I'd say drop EP1 as a movie entirely, write the Trade Federation Coup into the background as an alignment of Palpantine's plans and start 'EP1' at the half way point of EP2 leading up to geonosis. EP2 would be much more of the political turmoil necessary to create the Empire and eventually breed Alliance along with much more exposition on the nature of the strategy that palpatine dictated to clear opposition to sith rule. Anakin should be shown with obiwan in the clone wars learning and struggling with his powers, with minimal references to his history (honestly some things are much better left unwritten and not ruined by camp) everything after that would just be fixing junk writing, mandowank and underestimates. The existing arc of palpantine's puppet mastery of both sides of the conflict to organize a centrally controlled empire out of the aging republic without much damage to key industry works well.

the Jedi consul and temple could be nothing more than a kiosk for the order to interface with the Republic in mutually beneficial arrangements.

The new sith war and the Republic dark age would be a great place to do some massive correction of the time line, bringing the KOTOR era of galactic unification to a close and setting up the thousand year peace leading up to the movies. (and also minimizing the discontinuity in Galactic government over the time line, if the sith are in power during a few centuries can it still be defined as the Republic in the history books, I think so... even if there is significant strife) SOmething seriously needs to be done about the battle of Ruusan and the Republic pikemen.

I'd just like to see some Old Mandolorians string up and eviscerate the mandowank clones, anyone that rides open cockpit on a deorbit has serious balls. Before any of the PT stuff came out I was actually hoping that the clone wars was Republic Clones vs a mandalorian invasion...

[Admiral Felire]

Galvatron

Your pretty much saying that Episode 1 should be in the middle of the War. Palpatine will go from Senator to Chancellor in this Episode. Episode 2 be at the birth of the Empire. The war continues on for another year or so. And episode 3 will be like 10 years later and will include the Purge and the Duel.

Twenty years after that is Episode 4.

I actually like that, I think it works. That way we can make it so that how it began has so many different options - we never saw it.

As to your point about the Mandalorean Invasion, I don't really have a problem with it. I hate Karren Traviss take on them, but we are not her, so there won't be a problem. Plus, I once read this awesome story and timeline about them, I wish I knew where it was.

But what sorts of ideas do you have on it.

By the way, I like the idea of having Alderran being invaded. It brings forth a connection to Episode 4.

evillejedi

Interesting point and a very good one. I kinda like the idea of them being huge and ancient, its a nice touch.

2,000 or 20,000 would be a good number. hehe And the size of the ships you propose sound pretty good two. Its like the fleet under Thrawn discovers a lot of new Star Destroyers, that is no small feat.

And yeah, I like the idea of the based on an older design concept.

On the multiple shifts, I wouldn't mind 3 or 4 shifts, since really population numbers are not a big concern for the galaxy spanning government

[ExarKun]

ExarKun

Honestly, I think Jedi should be overpowered, overblown and beyond the level of normal men.

The Force is, after all, Magic and Jedi are pretty much highly powerful Wizards.

To me it shows that sometimes things are unfair, that some have powers others don't. And it also makes it so that one has to decide how to use that power - to use it to dominate others less powerful or to use it to help and work with others.

The power of Jedi should be high up, powerful and unrealistic. It is after all one of the fantastical aspects of Star Wars - its magic. And it shouldn't have limits.

Force Storms, destroying stars, controlling minds galaxies away, peering into the future and past, planets warped by the Force, all of it should exist.

The point to remember is that Force Users are rare, at least rarer than the standard galactic population. Which means that while yes, a situation would be easily solved if a Jedi was set on the mission, one cannot actually always do that. Which means their are so many things that others have to do.

I like my high powered, powerful, unequaled, awesome Force Users and I don't think they should be changed or downplayed.

.

Fair enough