A "realistic" Power Armor unit

[Pulp Hero]

I've been doing some thinking on what a "realistic" power armor unit would be like in a western-nation style space capable military.

Firstly the suits in this hypothetical military themselves are SST "gorilla" style or Starcraft style, but heavier and with limited jumppacks.

Missionwise, I really see power armor as having one main purpose: To take down ground based orbital defenses. My logic is that the enemy can be glassed from orbit by battleships in the open, and in locations that need to be taken relatively intact, power armor has too much brute force. It could also be used in places where a quick strike or POW release is needed, but that is not the "average" mission.

Therefore power armor is going to have a lot of explosive and anti-material weapons, with anti-personnel weapons being a secondary concern (power armor uses speed to avoid enemy troops if possible). Possibly even low yield (<1 Kt) nuclear weapons, depending on the situation.

As for the units themselves I see them being small, maybe 50 man companies, with about ten to fifteeen power armor soldiers. The rest of the company is made of attached mechanics, bio-mechanics (for suit interfacing), an armorer, and Ops-Controllers (communication between PA soldiers and battleship while on mission.) The companies are attached to large infantry or Space Navy groups as needed.

Soldiers treat suits more like airplanes than body armor, and have a pilot's mentality.

The suits are personalized fits for every pilot, which mean quarterly 'fit checks' to ensure the suit is optimized for the pilot. Also every pilot has cybernetic interface into the back of their head to connect to the suit to sync up movement better. Each pilot signs a waiver to have the interface implanted by the Space Navy before joining.

Suits are designed to have manual self destruct of classified sections and a wipe on electronics to be used if a wounded pilot has to abandoned.
***

Thoughts on a "real" power armor unit?

[Batman]

There's no such thing as 'realistic' power armour.

[Pulp Hero]

Thank you.

I'm speaking in terms of getting the nitty details of a daily life right in a unit that would have the mash-up qualifies of infantry/pilots/SAR/Navy traditions.

You know, like a soldier having to fill out a recite form when issued a nuclear weapon, and having sensor and orbital confirmation of detonation when it is used.

Soldiers don't fill out enough recites in fiction.

[Themightytom]

There's no such thing as 'realistic' power armour.

Says BATMAN???


http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/25/sarc ... g-reality/

[Steel]

Well one place they wont be is out in the open, or anywhere with nothing of exceptional value to the enemy. If your company of very expensive power suits is sitting in a field somewhere, then you can say hello to any artillery your opponent might happen to have and bye bye power suits...

Thats the thing about that irks me about the WH40K space marines. What is tougher: a really shitty tank, or a marine? Tank. What has more firepower: the shitty tank or the marine? Tank again. What is going to be present in more numbers on any world that there are space marines deployed to? Yep, any kind of shitty tank. (Also, whats cheaper and easier to build? Tank) So in open warfare, how the hell are marines going to be any use? We should only really see them used for things like boarding hulks, where a fully sealed suit is necessary, so might as well have plenty of protection tacked on. Alternatively, use in close quarters fighting for taking installations that are wanted intact.

[Batman]

There's no such thing as 'realistic' power armour.

Says BATMAN???

If you check out my posting history you'll find that I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I, and most if not all of my gadgetry, are pure fantasy
I AM a comic book character, afterall.

[Ford Prefect]

I think you missed the point Bats, he's asking for practices that would be applied to a 'real' suit of power armour, no matter how implausible the actual unit. You're right in there's no realistic suit of powered armour technologically speaking. Though quite frankly Pulp Hero has the right mentality already.

[Block]

Well one place they wont be is out in the open, or anywhere with nothing of exceptional value to the enemy. If your company of very expensive power suits is sitting in a field somewhere, then you can say hello to any artillery your opponent might happen to have and bye bye power suits...

Thats the thing about that irks me about the WH40K space marines. What is tougher: a really shitty tank, or a marine? Tank. What has more firepower: the shitty tank or the marine? Tank again. What is going to be present in more numbers on any world that there are space marines deployed to? Yep, any kind of shitty tank. (Also, whats cheaper and easier to build? Tank) So in open warfare, how the hell are marines going to be any use? We should only really see them used for things like boarding hulks, where a fully sealed suit is necessary, so might as well have plenty of protection tacked on. Alternatively, use in close quarters fighting for taking installations that are wanted intact.

Verastility, manuverability, survivability, stealth, ability to operate for 36+ hours straight, there's a huge number of things that a space marine is better at. I say survivability because Marines can take cover, dodge, and operate in ways that a tank can not.

[Crayz9000]

Verastility, manuverability, survivability, stealth, ability to operate for 36+ hours straight, there's a huge number of things that a space marine is better at. I say survivability because Marines can take cover, dodge, and operate in ways that a tank can not.

Just playing devil's advocate here (and going off tangent a bit), but how good are the Space Marines at shooting things behind them while running forward at full tilt? I'd imagine it would involve spinning around, running backwards (I don't imagine they have eyes in the back of their head unless they're Chaos space marines), shooting, then turning around and continuing forward.

That's one thing tanks are VERY good at, shooting targets more or less accurately while moving full tilt. Stabilized turrets are wonderful in that regard.

BTW, I find the image of a Space Marine "sneaking" around very amusing, in the same way the image of an elephant on its tiptoes is amusing.

[Themightytom]

There's no such thing as 'realistic' power armour.

Says BATMAN???

If you check out my posting history you'll find that I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I, and most if not all of my gadgetry, are pure fantasy
I AM a comic book character, afterall.

still i savor irony. besides i also posted a link to a working powersuit the military has developed but not yet mass produced.

[Block]

Verastility, manuverability, survivability, stealth, ability to operate for 36+ hours straight, there's a huge number of things that a space marine is better at. I say survivability because Marines can take cover, dodge, and operate in ways that a tank can not.

Just playing devil's advocate here (and going off tangent a bit), but how good are the Space Marines at shooting things behind them while running forward at full tilt? I'd imagine it would involve spinning around, running backwards (I don't imagine they have eyes in the back of their head unless they're Chaos space marines), shooting, then turning around and continuing forward.

That's one thing tanks are VERY good at, shooting targets more or less accurately while moving full tilt. Stabilized turrets are wonderful in that regard.

BTW, I find the image of a Space Marine "sneaking" around very amusing, in the same way the image of an elephant on its tiptoes is amusing.

Well yeah, but scouts are fairly stealthy, and compared to a tank I'd think a Space Marine could be considered rather stealthy. As for the other point, this is true, however how often do you think that's really going to be an issue?

[Azazal]

BTW, I find the image of a Space Marine "sneaking" around very amusing, in the same way the image of an elephant on its tiptoes is amusing.

Nightlords for the win

For the OP, while not truly powered armor, but check out the Heavy Gear game, and on the anime front, VOTOMS and hell, even Blue Gender

[Lord Relvenous]

Just playing devil's advocate here (and going off tangent a bit), but how good are the Space Marines at shooting things behind them while running forward at full tilt? I'd imagine it would involve spinning around, running backwards (I don't imagine they have eyes in the back of their head unless they're Chaos space marines), shooting, then turning around and continuing forward.

That's one thing tanks are VERY good at, shooting targets more or less accurately while moving full tilt. Stabilized turrets are wonderful in that regard.

Marines have targeting links with their bolters and HUDs and also between the servos in their arms and fingers and the sensors on their helmets. There are instances in the fluff where marines have taken snapshots at enemies out of their natural sight range, and the suit takes over and corrects their aiming. For anything ahead of them, Space Marines are some of the best marksmen out there. They can fire pistols very accurately while charging headlong into barricades and hit targets at a very long range with their regular bolters. It is also said that a marine is considered to be wasting ammunition if any of his shots do not hit a target.

They can fire very accurately at full-tilt, and full-tilt for a marine is quite similar to full tilt for a slower tank.

[Swindle1984]

Verastility, manuverability, survivability, stealth, ability to operate for 36+ hours straight, there's a huge number of things that a space marine is better at. I say survivability because Marines can take cover, dodge, and operate in ways that a tank can not.

Just playing devil's advocate here (and going off tangent a bit), but how good are the Space Marines at shooting things behind them while running forward at full tilt? I'd imagine it would involve spinning around, running backwards (I don't imagine they have eyes in the back of their head unless they're Chaos space marines), shooting, then turning around and continuing forward.

That's one thing tanks are VERY good at, shooting targets more or less accurately while moving full tilt. Stabilized turrets are wonderful in that regard.

BTW, I find the image of a Space Marine "sneaking" around very amusing, in the same way the image of an elephant on its tiptoes is amusing.

This may be crazy talk, but I'm betting modern infantry can't just fire behind them with any sort of accuracy while running full-tilt either.

[Sikon]

Thoughts on a "real" power armor unit?

It would be used in applications where orbital fire support, aircraft, and tanks can't reach, focused on being a form of infantry in roles like going into buildings and taking them intact, as opposed to blowing them up and killing everybody inside.

Although technically armored androids or "cyborgs" rather than power armor, sci-fi Terminators provide an illustration of potential utility for the equivalent of a humanoid with high resistance to many of the most common, ordinary weapons plus bonuses like superhuman strength to quickly break through doors and walls. Combine that with heavier weapondry than an unaugmented human infantryman could carry, thousands of rounds of ammo or the equivalent, etc.

Even carrying more sensor equipment than an ordinary infantryman could be useful if future technology allowed such to see through walls with millimeter-wavelength imaging, by other means immediately find any human opponent within hundreds of yards even if hiding behind cover, etc.
That's actually not too far-fetched compared to most sci-fi, as one could imagine means like a neutron activation analysis beam scanning for a concentration of water (higher in hydrogen than dirt or concrete), carbon, etc. in ratios roughly corresponding to a human.

A common concern is that a big disadvantage of power armor could be increased difficulty at stealth versus infrared sensors and the like, but what if certain technology makes it so that humans can't hide well even outside of power armor anyway?

In missions that became an occupation or peacekeeping type situation afterwards, they could be particularly useful. For example, perhaps it takes specialized heavy military weapons like antitank weapons to penetrate their armor but the average criminal or insurgent on the street doesn't have easy access to that, despite regular handguns being everywhere. Again, think of the Terminator movies.

[PeZook]

The thing about destroying ground-based orbital defences I don't understand.

If you can insert a power armor company near an orbital defence site, then you can also insert munitions there.

If you can't, then your infantry is completely useless anyway.

And, since the enemy has an entire planet full of equipment, defending a weapons emplacement from power armored infantry will be ridiculously easy for him, while the attacker has to expend huge amounts of money just to get the 15 or so armor suits to the battlefield, multiplying their costs exponentially.

I can see powered armor used for crowd control or police operations (it would be pretty safe to storm a building if you could just knock down the door and waltz inside, immune to common small arms)

[Teleros]

BTW, I find the image of a Space Marine "sneaking" around very amusing, in the same way the image of an elephant on its tiptoes is amusing.

Don't we see one sneaking around in "Brothers of the Snake" or something?

[Shroom Man 777]

How about ground-based orbital defenses located in (mega)cities that need precision to take out? Orbitally bombarding a mile-long starscraper that's been festooned with ASAT missiles would be pretty lousy for media coverage!

[Vendetta]

The thing about destroying ground-based orbital defences I don't understand.

If you can insert a power armor company near an orbital defence site, then you can also insert munitions there.

If you can't, then your infantry is completely useless anyway.

What about when you want to disable the orbital defenses without destroying them, so that when your enemy wants his planet back you can use the existing orbital defenses to fend him off, rather than spending time and money building new ones.

Infantry can get in and cut power and control circuits, things that are quick and easy to replace, and tough power armoured infantry would be harder to dislodge, meaning that you have a longer window to land your main assault force.

The thing with 40k Space Marines is that they're supposed to be the Imperium's rapid response and shock offensive force, whereas the main body of their armed forces is the Imperial Guard.

What is tougher: a really shitty tank, or a marine? Tank. What has more firepower: the shitty tank or the marine? Tank again. What is going to be present in more numbers on any world that there are space marines deployed to? Yep, any kind of shitty tank. (Also, whats cheaper and easier to build? Tank) So in open warfare, how the hell are marines going to be any use?

In "open warfare" situations, Space Marines have tanks of their own. They're actually one of the better combined arms forces in the setting, as a Marine company will deploy with mechanised infantry, armour support from Predators and Land Raiders, and close air support from Land Speeders, as well as artillery in the form of Whirlwinds. (The Guard have mech inf, tanks, and arty covered, but tend to lack in CAS, Valkyries are alright, but generally few in number compared to the size of the force)

[PeZook]

What about when you want to disable the orbital defenses without destroying them, so that when your enemy wants his planet back you can use the existing orbital defenses to fend him off, rather than spending time and money building new ones.

Infantry can get in and cut power and control circuits, things that are quick and easy to replace, and tough power armoured infantry would be harder to dislodge, meaning that you have a longer window to land your main assault force.

Any semi-competent enemy will defend their huge-ass ground-to-orbit installations with infantry which, compared to the cost of the installation itself, is incredibly cheap. I wouldn't count on being able to get in and neatly cut a few wires: more likely, you will have to grind your way through emplaced defences and hope the enemy didn't detect your drop pods and scramble helicopter gunships to murder your power armored troopers within minutes of them launching the attack. Remember, they're alone, unsupported and using weapon systems which are really easy to detect with sensors, and the enemy had an entire planet full of troops who have nothing else to do than hunt them down and kill them. It's like dropping paratroopers to disable a large country's ICBM silos before invading them: a real long shot, unlikely to work. It's easier to just blast the things to pieces.

[Steel]

Versatility, manoeuvrability, survivability, stealth, ability to operate for 36+ hours straight, there's a huge number of things that a space marine is better at. I say survivability because Marines can take cover, dodge, and operate in ways that a tank can not.

Note how i said open warfare, not special ops. None of the versatility of a marine really comes into play there. As for survivability, practically anything a marine could take cover behind, and a tank could not, would be weaker than the tank armour.

That aside, we know that the marines are immensely costly to train and produce (both in time and resources), whereas the Imperium can churn out hundreds of thousands of tanks and crews in short order. Would deploying marines to a given combat situation be more cost effective than a much greater number of normal infantry and tanks?

In "open warfare" situations, Space Marines have tanks of their own. They're actually one of the better combined arms forces in the setting, as a Marine company will deploy with mechanised infantry, armour support from Predators and Land Raiders, and close air support from Land Speeders, as well as artillery in the form of Whirlwinds.

And that is good and sensible, but in these situations requiring that armoured support how does having a small number of very expensive power armoured troops advantage them over having a very large number of regular troops like the guard?


I dont see power armoured troops being cost effective (ie practical) outside of situations where the enemy is unable to bring their conventional armies to bear. Certainly man for man a power armoured troop is going to be more powerful than a regular trooper. This doesn't mean that the are suddenly invulnerable to orbital bombardment, bombing runs, artillery, and being overrun by superior numbers.

In situations where there is already a big technological or firepower disparity between the forces then power armour could be useful. For peacekeeping as has already been mentioned, making your troops invulnerable to the majority of weapons available to enemy militia would be useful. Similarly in boarding disabled vessels in order to capture people/information or to take control of something like a 40K hulk where the enemy cannot bring large numbers to bear or make use of massive firepower.

Think about it this way, you deploy some space marines to pacify somewhere like Afghanistan, they have a party. You deploy tens of thousands of them on the Mexican border with the objective of capturing say Texas and they'll get cluster bombed same as regular troops, only more easily as there aren't as many of them to bomb. (I'm not so sure on American geography, i was trying to pick somewhere that was pretty empty.)

[Hawkwings]

Versatility, manoeuvrability, survivability, stealth, ability to operate for 36+ hours straight, there's a huge number of things that a space marine is better at. I say survivability because Marines can take cover, dodge, and operate in ways that a tank can not.

Note how i said open warfare, not special ops. None of the versatility of a marine really comes into play there. As for survivability, practically anything a marine could take cover behind, and a tank could not, would be weaker than the tank armour.

That aside, we know that the marines are immensely costly to train and produce (both in time and resources), whereas the Imperium can churn out hundreds of thousands of tanks and crews in short order. Would deploying marines to a given combat situation be more cost effective than a much greater number of normal infantry and tanks?

When have Space Marines ever been used in place of the Guard? Space Marines are always special ops, it's just that they're assault troops too.

And yes, in Brothers of the Snake, in the first story, that space marine snuck up on a bunch of Dark Eldar. Although to be fair, they were slightly distracted.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Any semi-competent enemy will defend their huge-ass ground-to-orbit installations with infantry which, compared to the cost of the installation itself, is incredibly cheap. I wouldn't count on being able to get in and neatly cut a few wires: more likely, you will have to grind your way through emplaced defences and hope the enemy didn't detect your drop pods and scramble helicopter gunships to murder your power armored troopers within minutes of them launching the attack. Remember, they're alone, unsupported and using weapon systems which are really easy to detect with sensors, and the enemy had an entire planet full of troops who have nothing else to do than hunt them down and kill them. It's like dropping paratroopers to disable a large country's ICBM silos before invading them: a real long shot, unlikely to work. It's easier to just blast the things to pieces.

Well, it's not as if the Space Marines will drop down unsupported by armour and what not. Even Dreadnaughts can be dropped from the air.

[andrewgpaul]

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

[Steel]

When have Space Marines ever been used in place of the Guard? Space Marines are always special ops, it's just that they're assault troops too.

Great crusade, Horus Heresy, innumerable short stories (quite a few in Let the galaxy burn and plenty in rulebook fluff). We see so many examples of them fighting as front line troops with the guard. Thats like taking superman and having him as the security at a kryptonite factory (perhaps hes better at it than a regular guy, but its the place where hes most likely to die and can do the least good).

And since when has assault counted as special ops??

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?