Youtube comments: Medieval era=peace and loyalty

hongi · Post by **hongi** » 2008-08-06 02:53am

Ender wrote:
Timotheus wrote:So how much peace and love was there in the Spanish Inquisition?
Those people weren't Christians, so they don't count. Did you miss the part where the middle ages were built around love of god?

Actually not even that, most Jews who converted to Christianity actually converted to Christianity. Some kept the cultural trappings, but that doesn't really prove anything.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-08-06 03:08am

You know, I find it horribly ironic that people who use things like the Internet, electricity, indoor plumbing, mechanized agriculture and modern medical science can turn around and idealize a time period where cutting yourself with a farming tool could lead to amputation, getting accurate information about anything was close to impossible, travelling to the nearest town took half a day, and robbery (with murder included!) on roads was horribly rampant, effectively dooming peasants to spend their entire lives in their home villages.

Also, cities stank - unless they had post-roman sewage systems.

Even if medieval europe wasn't all that opressive, it would still be a shitty place to live in. Most of the fundies who would idealize the Middle Ages can't even be persuaded to give up their fucking cars and use public transport ; How would they feel about having no transport at all, and having to shit in outhouses even in the middle on winter? No showers for you!

Vaporous · Post by **Vaporous** » 2008-08-06 05:43am

I'm more interested in the part where he discusses the Renaissance as being about "The Love of God". The Renaissance is what we call the time period where Europe was rich enough to be pagan again. Anyone else remember the humanist movement in Western Europe and Italy? What was it Savonarola was burning again? Did they hallucinate all of those lying butchers who became popes through bribery and murder? Maybe all of that is part of the MODERN SECULAR CONSPIRACY!

Zablorg · Post by **Zablorg** » 2008-08-06 06:22am

Found another one.

Bull.
All crap.
Give me evidence, authors, titles of books, names of Historians and avenues to find their work and I might be inclined to reply that your not full of crap.

ALL TELEVISION.

Incidentally, I have been to MILAN, FLORENCE, PISA, ROME AND VIENNA.
I've walked through many Cathedrals, as thousands do. Countless souls of the medieval
era were laid to rest benieth the floor of those edifices and I have counted their years.

The dates support the 70 years average life span.

History books? What history books?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2008-08-06 06:26am

The dates support the 70 years average life span.

This person needs to learn how average lifespans are calculated. A well-off medieval person - even a middle class one - could easily live to 70; but throw in a few wars, famines, plagues and the horrific child mortality rates and that number drops fast.

And he conveniently ignores the fact that the cathedral floor was reserved for the important and the wealthy - the ones who had shelter, armed guards and a continuous access to food, as well as a modicum of medical care.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-08-06 06:38am

ROFL

First he demands historians, names and books! and then proceeds to draw sweeping conclusions about medieval society by...citing birth/death dates of the wealthy and the powerful members of this society

Where are his books and published authors that show the middle ages as the wonderland of fluffy bunnies he claims it was?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-08-06 06:45am

It may not be best to attack the middle ages with average life spans; incredibly high infant mortality is bound to skew them. Is there any data on the life span for those who made it past the first two years?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-08-06 06:57am

Surlethe wrote:It may not be best to attack the middle ages with average life spans; incredibly high infant mortality is bound to skew them. Is there any data on the life span for those who made it past the first two years?

Here's an aritcle which gives names and title of a report:

http://www.wonderquest.com/LifeSpan.htm

Then again, I think it's perfectly okay to attack the Middle Ages for the average life span. It doesn't matter if it's the mortality rate which skews the average: it's still horribly shitty.

Seriously, would he like to see 3 out of 10 of his children die young because of easily preventable diseases? Having spiffy cathedrals and churches really doesn't seem to offset that.

Especially if you wouldn't be able to enjoy them since you got drafted into your lord's army, which then marched across half of Europe to depose a Pope he didn't like. Then you died on your way back.

Zablorg · Post by **Zablorg** » 2008-08-06 07:03am

PeZook wrote: Especially if you wouldn't be able to enjoy them since you got drafted into your lord's army, which then marched across half of Europe to depose a Pope he didn't like. Then you died on your way back.

But it's all in the LORDs name! The knowledge that he is one of the spearheads of the LORDs will makes him warm at night!

ShadowRider77 · Post by **ShadowRider77** » 2008-08-06 07:46am

Zablorg wrote:
PeZook wrote: Especially if you wouldn't be able to enjoy them since you got drafted into your lord's army, which then marched across half of Europe to depose a Pope he didn't like. Then you died on your way back.
But it's all in the LORDs name! The knowledge that he is one of the spearheads of the LORDs will makes him warm at night!

Only if their lord won...if he lost, then it meant that the LORD was not on their side, meaning that our peasant was a servant of SATAN!!!

Seriously, though, this is possibly the worst. You get drafted, dragged away from your home and loved ones, force-marched through half Europe on command of some analphabetic imbecile who nowadays couldn't even qualify to fry potatoes at McDonald, but has life-and-death power on you just because he came out of the right pussy, until the idiot fall head-first in some obvious ambush, and you get skewered and turned to shish kebab. And, as you die, you know that whoever will rule in place of the idiot, will surely decide that the land you lived on will be more fruitful if given to a man who can properly farm it, and so your wife and children will be evicted and thrown on the street to starve...

And there is some who idolize Middle Ages...sheeesh...play less D&D and read more history...

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2008-08-06 08:12am

Most armies at that time consisted of mostly mercenaries and nobles. The average peasant would probably have to be more worried of his village getting sacked by invading armies. Ordinary people being drafted and forced from their homes is more typical of modern warfare.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-08-06 08:19am

People who idolize the Middle Ages make the same mistake as those who think living in a postapocalyptic wasteland would be cool:

They think they'd be the ones to have it good.

Yeah, living as a knight in the middle ages wasn't that bad. Guess what? Only a few people were knights. And if they got a bad cut during a tournament, or supported the wrong lord, they were as fucked as anybody else.

And if you were born a peasant...well, people have said enough. At least today, if you are born in some no-perspectives rural town, you have a few options: you can work in a local business, you can start your own business or leave for a big city. If you're determined enough, you can get an education and come to live in the big city permanently, or you can come back, help your father run his farm and then take it over as he grows old. If you're not ambitious at all, you can always work a minimum-wage job and live in a small apartment for the rest of your life, and you'll still enjoy heating, indoor plumbing, plenty of food and a Playstation if you have no other obligations.

As a medieval peasant? Oh, sorry. You can't move away to a city, you'll get hanged if you do! Okay, then I'll start a local business...oops, only one person in the village can legally run a tavern or a mill. If you try to do it, you'll be hanged.

Right, in this case I'll just farm my land and then pass it on to my children...oh, wait, it's not my land, it belongs to the King! I don't get to keep much of what I cultivate, and I have to pay rent, too!

This sucks. I'll just off myself!

Oh, sorry. It's a mortal sin and my family will get ostracized for that. Also, the lord will likely evict them and give the land to someone who can farm it better, unless she can quickly find another husband. If she gets evicted, she may be lucky and end up as a noble's servant (and fucktoy) for food and lodging. If not, she'll die a street beggar.

What an awesome life! Let me at it!

Timotheus · Post by **Timotheus** » 2008-08-06 10:33am

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Setzer wrote:
It's no real surprise they'd romanticize things. The Middle Ages might have been pretty nice for the Church, but it was horrible for everyone else.
Wasn't even nice for the Church. The Church had more power over society in those days, but that didn't stop monasteries from being plundered (and I'm just talking about the Christians here), nuns getting raped, priests slaughtered, the occasional political murder of important churchmen including the pope, and papal succession sometimes being determined by an angry mob. They also got the short end of the health care stick like everyone else.

Considering how far overall health fell after the end of Ancient times I would like to point out that the Church is the reason for a large amount of the poor health.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-08-06 10:51am

Out of curiosity, what about Church hospitals?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-08-06 11:26am

Zixinus wrote:Out of curiosity, what about Church hospitals?

Church "hospitals" were less places for people to get well and more places to make people comfortable as they died. Thanks to all the superstitious bullshit about medicine, things like blood-letting and amputation were incredibly popular treatments.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-08-06 12:36pm

I think its worth pointing out that it's not just fundies who think the Middle Ages were great - in fact I would be surprised if the majority of people who look back on that era with fondness are fundies. There is an absolutely MASSIVE number of people out there who, after absorbing fantasy novels all their life, think that that represents a better, simpler time that we should try to emulate today.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-08-06 12:42pm

Ender wrote:I think its worth pointing out that it's not just fundies who think the Middle Ages were great - in fact I would be surprised if the majority of people who look back on that era with fondness are fundies. There is an absolutely MASSIVE number of people out there who, after absorbing fantasy novels all their life, think that that represents a better, simpler time that we should try to emulate today.

I don't think there's a massive number of people out there who read fantasy novels all their lives at all, never mind wishing they lived in that era.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-08-06 12:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Ender wrote:I think its worth pointing out that it's not just fundies who think the Middle Ages were great - in fact I would be surprised if the majority of people who look back on that era with fondness are fundies. There is an absolutely MASSIVE number of people out there who, after absorbing fantasy novels all their life, think that that represents a better, simpler time that we should try to emulate today.
I don't think there's a massive number of people out there who read fantasy novels all their lives at all, never mind wishing they lived in that era.

You could always make the argument that the Bible counts as a fantasy novel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-08-06 02:01pm

General Zod wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Ender wrote:I think its worth pointing out that it's not just fundies who think the Middle Ages were great - in fact I would be surprised if the majority of people who look back on that era with fondness are fundies. There is an absolutely MASSIVE number of people out there who, after absorbing fantasy novels all their life, think that that represents a better, simpler time that we should try to emulate today.
I don't think there's a massive number of people out there who read fantasy novels all their lives at all, never mind wishing they lived in that era.
You could always make the argument that the Bible counts as a fantasy novel.

Almost nobody reads that piece of crap book either, not even most Christians.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2008-08-06 02:17pm

PeZook wrote:This sucks. I'll just off myself!

Oh, sorry. It's a mortal sin and my family will get ostracized for that.

Oh that's not a problem. Just do what everyone else did and get caught fucking a goat. You'll get burned on the stake (and the goat too, probably), but you will receive a proper Christian funeral afterwards. There are always loop holes

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-08-06 03:00pm

Darth Wong wrote: I don't think there's a massive number of people out there who read fantasy novels all their lives at all, never mind wishing they lived in that era.

There's plenty of people who watch movies, though. And contrary to what Idiot Boy here says, Holywood does not portray the Middle Ages as horrible times to live in its blockbusters. It shows knights and battles and heroes and nice good looking healthy and honorable folksy people.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2008-08-06 03:42pm

Timotheus wrote:Considering how far overall health fell after the end of Ancient times I would like to point out that the Church is the reason for a large amount of the poor health.

Actually, I think that the average farming peasant of Europe did not see much of a change from ancient times until the 1800s, with the advent of the seed drill, cotton gin, and other similar inventions. Otherwise, life was nasty, brutish, and short for the whole of agriculture for the peasant/serf/farmer/slave.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-08-06 07:41pm

PeZook wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: I don't think there's a massive number of people out there who read fantasy novels all their lives at all, never mind wishing they lived in that era.
There's plenty of people who watch movies, though. And contrary to what Idiot Boy here says, Holywood does not portray the Middle Ages as horrible times to live in its blockbusters. It shows knights and battles and heroes and nice good looking healthy and honorable folksy people.

An SCA-like vision of the Middle Ages which got brutally ridiculed on Mystery Science Theatre 3000 by Tom Servo.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2008-08-06 09:06pm

Ender wrote:I think its worth pointing out that it's not just fundies who think the Middle Ages were great - in fact I would be surprised if the majority of people who look back on that era with fondness are fundies. There is an absolutely MASSIVE number of people out there who, after absorbing fantasy novels all their life, think that that represents a better, simpler time that we should try to emulate today.

You also often see "simple life" wanking from the San Francisco hippie set. I remember one incident a couple of semesters ago where some guy in my class thought people living in shithole countries like Nigeria had it better than us, citing the usual bullshit about "people in countries that aren't obsessed with materialism are happier" (more or less). My jaw dropped. I was really sorry it was in a class discussion so I couldn't say what I thought of him ("you're a fucking idiot").

The Noble Savage has always been a popular conceit with rich, decadent city dwellers who've never had to experience the lifestyle they idealize.

Stargate Nerd · Post by **Stargate Nerd** » 2008-08-07 01:08pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: The simple fact is that even having 50 million people to kill was a completely unattainable goal during the Middle Ages, where sustaining a city of 20 thousand people was a spectacularly difficult task.

The only people who could claim to have killed hundreds of thousands are the Mongols, but they are at the extreme end of brutality.[/quote]

30 million during the invasion/s of China IIRC.