EU Fic: RotJ-NJO Era

[Illuminatus Primus]

About Admiral General, how about that not all militaries use it and that I don't think it fits here.

And honestly, since I am in this project my opinions matter on whether we utilize it as a common thing. Now its not the only opinion that matters, but it matters. I dislike them and do not then they have the right feel. Isn't that the point of this, to give Star Wars the right feel again?

My official vote on that is not to use it, its not needed, it doesn't work and it shouldn't be there. It the same with the Colonel General thing. I vote that we do not use it.

I say that if we are going to use Grand Admiral for the Navy then we should use Grand something for the army, and in this case its either General or Marshal. Marshal works fine. Uniformity between the services is not a bad thing.

Nor do we have to stick with one real world culture to make our rank structure. We are talking about an military that comes from an entire galaxy. They probably have taken things from multiple sources and if it works it works and we should use it.

In summary, I think your perspective on nomenclature is pretty superficial, and I think we should stay away from simplistic thinking and piecemeal invention. Are Grand Moff and Grand Vizier analogous to Grand Admiral? They have "grand" in them.

About opinions, sure they are welcome and feeling does matter. But not all feelings are equal. Those supported by a substantive argument and/or with attributed examples and evidence are better than those without.

Just because we change the numbers within the Sector Group does not mean we are changing the actual category of the Sector Group. It makes sense that the largest normal unit of military operation is the group assigned to the sector, as that is the central organizational level within the Empire.

Oversectors will have more than one Sector Group, and specialized detachments might have either less than a Sector Group or many Sector Groups at their command.

The Empire has 10s of thousands of Sector Groups (its comparable to the squad relative to the U.S. Army). Do you think that should be the largest formation? Besides, we already have larger ones - the Groups of Forces at each Regional level, and the Color Weapon Commands at the Oversectorial level. And that's just colonial service on the part of the military, really just garrisons and defensive formations when you think about it. Doesn't include the galactic level, strategic formations at all.

On the Intelligence ranks, I think that the Imperial Intelligence should just use normal bureaucratic agency ranks not made up ranks that come out of nowhere. I like what Publius does, but I don't think that this makes any sense. And despite us using Publius as 'canon' it doesn't mean we cannot change what he wrote.

I vote that the Intelligence uses normal organization ranks.

Imperial Intelligence is an armed service like the Army, Navy, and Marines. This is substantiated by Ysanne Isard wearing a red AFI uniform, and the fact it is stated directly by the Imperial Sourcebook. It is not just a civilian agency.

I am not talking about planetary armies. I am talking about those assigned to Sectors of the galaxy. Why should we change the fact that Sector Groups are the premier unit in the galaxy. It works fine for me. More important sectors will have higher ranked admirals in command.

The OOB of the ISB is predicated on the assumption that planetary-level armies would be commanded by high-ranking general officers. I'm saying they rate only field grade.

I am somewhat hesitate on naval ranks O-7, O-5, O-2. In your opinion what would they do, why are they present.

High Commander is just a new intermediate rank for the Navy. A junior captain, commanding cruiser class and maybe some destroyer class vessels. Sub-commander is another one, for commanding ships like Nebulon-B escort frigates. Sub-lieutenant is the Royal Navy equivalent of the U.S. Navy rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade.

Does High Commander a rank used on the largest of ships. So the Captain is in command, has multiple High Commanders, and each High Commander oversees a Commander of a of particular section or department of the ship.

I imagine that a Captain would command an Eclipse and other lesser ships-of-the-line, and several of the departments could be rated as high commanders.

I have no problem with O-8 to O-15. Nor do I have a problem with O-17. This is navy of course.

Okay.

[Admiral Felire]

My perspective on nomenclature is what sounds right, what works and what makes sense (in no particular order). I am not holden to any real world cultures and are able to make up ranks. I have no problem with bringing in names from various things to come up with something unified. We are talking about a galactic civilization beyond our practice in size, so they could easily create new ranks for things.

I say that we take what we want from multiple sources and unite them in a way to make sense.

I am not talking about Grand Moffs or Grand Viziers or whatever. I am talking about Grand Admirals and the Army equivalent. I do not see why it cannot be two words like everything else - Grand and then Marshal or General. Its simple, it fits with already existing statistics and it works.

I also say that mixing general naval and army ranks (The so-called Admiral General) doesn't make sense. And whether you say that its not an army rank its a purely navy rank, it sounds like an army rank and are readers are more than likely not going to know the exact reason its not. There is no reason for it, the US or Britain do not have Admiral Generals, I don't see any reason for us to either. It is somewhat the same with Colonel General, though not as much as both root words are within the same service.

And don't forget each rank can also have multiple stars within it despite their same name. Two Rear Admirals may theoretically be of the same rank but one is considered upper while the other is lower, or something. Things like that can work.

The main point is to create a clear cut chain of command so that readers can understand who is in charge upon first glance. Readers must be able to understand it, and how its organized.

On Sector Group, I never said its the highest level, I said its the base level for higher organizations. Higher levels of authority exist but they are based on unification of Sector Groups. A Region might have 200 Sector Groups within its command.

Another option we could go with is that the Sector Group is the highest defensive arrangement that is seen. Each Sector has one of them, while Oversectors and others would have multiples.

The actual Empire-wide forces would be established on a different force hierarchy than that of Sector Group.

We also need to figure out the Command/Line/Squadron/System Force/Fleet/Sector Group organization that we are using. That way we can place officers within this categories so that we can have a general sense of things. We also need to figure out the numbers of ships in those units.

__

Couldn't we have Junior Grades and Senior Grades for the upper ranks?

[Admiral Felire]

My Thoughts on Episode 1

The political aspects should continue without much change, i.e., Palpatine should use this as a point to become Chancellor. But since the Galactic Republic is already embroidled in the Clone Wars its not a time of peace.

Naboo could still be invaded and attacked, that is not that big of a change and it could still work. Thus allowing the Queen of Naboo to go to Coruscant and work to make Palpatine Chancellor. And I have said before and I will say again, sometimes a small target can have small military benefit but huge polticial benefit. While Naboo is not a major industiral powerhouse, it is probably poltiically well-connected and taking it out or whatever the forces that attack it do could work for that.

The points are still retained of the movie without having a kiddie Anakin.

We could do it this way
*Naboo is attacked by one faction in the Clone Wars.
*The Republic sends Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his former (but no longer) apprentice, Jedi Knight Kenobi to try and solve the crisis diplomatically.
*They arrive in orbit and the sitaution is worse then it seems to be. They then shuttle down to the planet after trying to be killed by the invading forces.
*They meet up with the Queen and Qui-Gon says that she must leave and head to Coruscant.
*They take a ship and go into hyperspace but as they enter orbit they are fired upon and cannot make it all the way to Coruscant. So Obi-Wan says that he knows somebody on Tatooine, his former apprentice Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker.
*We learn from Obi-Wan that he headed back to his homeworld because his mother was getting sick and so he took some leave from fighting in the wars.
*They head to Tatottine and things happen of an adventious move.
*They then get the ship and go to Coruscant - Kenobi has Anakin come with him.
*They go to Courscant and that scenes that occur in the movie pretty much happens (with the exception of Anakin Jedi testing). Senator Palpatine becomes Chancellor.
*They go to Naboo. Jedi Obi-Wan and Kenobi head after the mysterious Sith they find. Anakin goes into space (with some pilots) to fight against the invasion force. And Amidala goes to the palace.
*Qui-Gon Jinn dies. Obi-Wan kills the Sith. Anakin destroys the ship or soemthing. Padme captures the Viceroy.
*The movie ends with a note that Anakin and Obi-Wan will be heading back into the conflict that is the Clone Wars.

Minimum of change, but what does change is the stupid things. Oh, some of the battles and stuff change as well to be more realistic, but the basic points still stand.

What do you guys think?

[Admiral Felire]

Episode 1 is in the middle of the Clone Wars. And includes Palpatine becoming Chancellor.

Episode 2 will occur a year or so before the end of the Clone Wars. This episode will have a Mandalorean invasion of Alderran. Because the war has gotten to the Core, the Senate makes Palpatine Emperor to deal with the problem as he decides to see fit.

Episode 3 will be ten years after Episode 2 and will have the start of the Jedi Purge and the Duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan, creating Vader. The duel happened because Padme discovered she was pregnant and noticed that Anakin was no longer 'good'. She manges to escape with Obi-Wan to Alderran where she gives birth. She lives for a few more years afterward, acting as Leia's nanny.

Episode 4 is 20 years after Episode 3, as is normal.

These are just options and ideas. Discussion is wanted.

[Illuminatus Primus]

My perspective on nomenclature is what sounds right, what works and what makes sense (in no particular order). I am not holden to any real world cultures and are able to make up ranks. I have no problem with bringing in names from various things to come up with something unified. We are talking about a galactic civilization beyond our practice in size, so they could easily create new ranks for things.

I say that we take what we want from multiple sources and unite them in a way to make sense.

In other words, its just your gut. Well if it really makes you that upset, I could replace admiral general with fleet vice admiral.

I am not talking about Grand Moffs or Grand Viziers or whatever. I am talking about Grand Admirals and the Army equivalent. I do not see why it cannot be two words like everything else - Grand and then Marshal or General. Its simple, it fits with already existing statistics and it works.

"Two words" is now the litmus test for what are and are not valid ranks?

I also say that mixing general naval and army ranks (The so-called Admiral General) doesn't make sense. And whether you say that its not an army rank its a purely navy rank, it sounds like an army rank and are readers are more than likely not going to know the exact reason its not. There is no reason for it, the US or Britain do not have Admiral Generals, I don't see any reason for us to either. It is somewhat the same with Colonel General, though not as much as both root words are within the same service.

Admiral general is a valid rank, and I'm not kowtowing every aspect of the story and terminology to hypothetical readers who are not very educated. Despite the fact the inferred meaning is obvious. Should I never use the word imperium, auctoritas? How about raison d'être? Where does it become acceptable? Where is not acceptable? This dispute is arbitrary.

The U.S. and Britain don't have marshal generals, grand admirals, high admirals, counter admirals, line captains, etc., etc. They also don't have Moffs and Grand Moffs, Grand Viziers and etc. This dispute is arbitrary.

And don't forget each rank can also have multiple stars within it despite their same name. Two Rear Admirals may theoretically be of the same rank but one is considered upper while the other is lower, or something. Things like that can work.

They'd still be marked seperately as different O-numbers in grade.

The main point is to create a clear cut chain of command so that readers can understand who is in charge upon first glance. Readers must be able to understand it, and how its organized.

Which hardly exists with the existing system, with its idiosyncratic high admirals (at the pipsqueak Sector Group echelon level), commodores outranking admirals, and grand admirals who are not really even in the heirarchy, but ersatz ranks assigned to Palpatine's personal naval aides-de-camp and naval plenipotentiaries.

On Sector Group, I never said its the highest level, I said its the base level for higher organizations. Higher levels of authority exist but they are based on unification of Sector Groups. A Region might have 200 Sector Groups within its command.

Perhaps the "group" can exist for an echelon above basic fleet and constitute most sector groups.

Another option we could go with is that the Sector Group is the highest defensive arrangement that is seen. Each Sector has one of them, while Oversectors and others would have multiples.

Personally, I think that "Sector Group" is what they call the naval component of any Sector Command, regardless of size or configuration. It is not a unit in of itself. The Imperial Sector's Sector Group should be configured much differently than that of Gordian Reach Sector. Being much larger for one.

The actual Empire-wide forces would be established on a different force hierarchy than that of Sector Group.

Why? The Oversector Outer's territorial expanse and size gives it more in common with pan-galactic defense than that of the sector.

We also need to figure out the Command/Line/Squadron/System Force/Fleet/Sector Group organization that we are using. That way we can place officers within this categories so that we can have a general sense of things. We also need to figure out the numbers of ships in those units.

At the very least it needs to be regularized, reinterpreted in favor of a more-scale appropriate conception of Sector Commands as garrison and internal security forces with a light "home defense" role.

Couldn't we have Junior Grades and Senior Grades for the upper ranks?

I hate JG and I've already used the British "sub-" prefix instead. SG has been replaced with "high" in my system, taking from the canonical example.

[Vehrec]

Not by the difference between the canonical 1.2 km Mon Remonda and the 19 km Iron Fist. A lot of the post-Endor support (probably a great majority) will be donated and pledged war materiel and troops from breakaway dominions and client states from the Empire, and defections from the Armed Forces (I've been modeling a lot of the galactic society off of Germany, and I'm thinking that the Generationals of the Armed Forces may be pretty conservative and Republican in character, but stuck around out of respect for Palpatine, a lot more of those sympathizers might leave, especially as the post-Endor ruling class fucks up). Not to mention, by this time the New Republic is the dominant galactic superpower, and must have some sort of developed state apparatus and infrastructure, and conventional military (or at least putting up a decent show of it).

A decent show of it is exactly what I was thinking. MR could be the first Star Dreadnaught to slip off the ways of Mon Calamari, a one-off design and status symbol of the Rebellion's coming of age as a serious power in the galaxy. It shows their new ability and willingness to wield power on the same scale as the Old Republic, but at the same time spreads the message of galactic unity because it was built over a disenfranchised world that is now openly accepted.

And I like Admiral General. It harkens back to the Jedi-Generals of the Clone Wars, and as such would be a romanticized rank in popular culture. One associated with daring, brilliant schemes and leading from the front, even if the actual officers do no such thing.

[montypython]

Calling Admiral General as General Admiral would sound and flow better in the rank tables.

[Admiral Felire]

Any comments on my thoughts for Episode 1.

[Darth Hoth]

It might work; I am still considering the details. I would like to minimalise the Mandalorian impact, though. Nothing personal, it is just the mere word setting my defence mechanisms off after Traviss's stupidities.

[Admiral Felire]

Whether we use the Mandaloreans or not (I'm fine with both options) I think that Episode 2 should have an attack on a Core World - either something like Alderran or something like Coruscant. I think that the blatent direct war on a Core World is what spurs the galaxy into giving Palpatine Imperial Powers because nothing else would allow for end of the conflict.

Hey Darth Hoth, whats your take on the rank issue that is cropping up.

[montypython]

Does anyone have issues with my COMPForce and SAGroup ranks?

[Darth Hoth]

SUPREME COMMANDER

Supreme Commander Lord High Admiral/Lord High Constable/Lord High Marshal/Lord High Logothete (part of me would like there to be a common rank regardless of the original service of the SCAFI, maybe "Generalissimus of the Armed Forces"? Also an appropriate title if a civilian, with the courtesy style of "Lord.")

Just an idea, but if we are following the German model, why not a (Lord?) Marshall of the Empire? (Or perhaps a (Lord?) Admiral of the Empire, if the Navy is the senior service.) "Generalissimus" sounds a bit informal to me in modern usage, and not quite correct given the models we are working with.

NAVY

Grand Admiral
Admiral of the Navy (special rank of the First Space Lord and Chief of Naval Operations [1SL/CNO])

O-17 Fleet Admiral
O-16 Admiral General
O-15 High Admiral
O-14 Admiral
O-13 Vice Admiral
O-12 Rear Admiral
O-11 Counter Admiral
O-10 Commodore
O-9 Line Captain
O-8 Captain
O-7 High Commander
O-6 Commander
O-5 Sub-commander
O-4 Lieutenant Commander
O-3 Lieutenant
O-2 Sub-lieutenant
O-1 Ensign
Officer Candidate Midshipman

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy?

E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer
E-7 Chief Petty Officer
E-6 Petty Officer First Class
E-5 Petty Officer Second Class
E-4 Petty Officer Third Class
E-3 Spaceman
E-2 Spaceman Apprentice
E-1 Spaceman Recruit

I am somewhat uncomfortable with the inclusion of both "Rear Admiral" and "Counter-Admiral". I assume you are familiar with the etymology of those terms; essentially, they denote the same rank. Why include both, and of different seniority?

Otherwise, no complaints.

ARMY

Surface/Field Marshal General?
Marshal General of the Armies (special rank of the Chief of the Imperial General Staff/Commander-in-chief of the Forces [CIGS/CINCFOR])

O-17 Surface/Field Marshal
O-16 Colonel General
O-15 High General
O-14 General
O-13 Lieutenant General
O-12 Major General
O-11 Brigadier General
O-10 Brigadier
O-9 High Colonel
O-8 Colonel
O-7 Sub-colonel
O-6 Lieutenant Colonel
O-5 High Major
O-4 Major
O-3 Captain
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-1 Second Lieutenant
Officer Candidate Cadet

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Sergeant Major of the Army?

E-9 Sergeant Major
E-8 Master Sergeant
E-7 Sergeant First Class
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-5 Sergeant
E-4 Corporal
E-3 Private First Class
E-2 Private
E-1 Private Recruit

A bit of the same complaint, but here the problem is even more evident: Why are there two Brigadier ranks? They mean the same thing; both should probably not be in use in the same military. And why is one senior to the other? If the position is needed, we could come up with another specific rank; even "Brigadier/High Brigadier" sounds better.

MARINES (I've thought of giving them sort of their own rank system, based on Drakian cases and some of Marina O'leary's use, this is the most provisional; also considered using the French system: "General of [unit type]," etc.)

Captain General of the Marines of the Empire (special rank of the Commandant General Imperial Marines [CGIM])

O-17 General of Marine
O-16 Colonel General
O-15 High General
O-14 General
O-13 Lieutenant General
O-12 Major General
O-11 Brigadier General
O-10 Brigadier
O-9 High Colonel
O-8 Colonel
O-7 Sub-colonel
O-6 Lieutenant Colonel
O-5 High Major
O-4 Major
O-3 Captain
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-1 Second Lieutenant
Officer Candidate Midshipman

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Sergeant Major of the Marines?

E-9 Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant
E-8 Master Sergeant/First Sergeant
E-7 Gunnery Sergeant
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-5 Sergeant
E-4 [Lance?] Corporal
E-3 Trooper/Private First Class
E-2 Trooper/Private
E-1 Trooper/Private Recruit

See above. Otherwise, I have no real problems with using the USMC model you did. Draka ranks would, I think, be a mistake.

(Worthless trivia: In my fanfics, I use naval ranks for them, inspired by the SEALs and Marine infantry. I do not think we should do that here, though).

INTELLIGENCE (highly theoretical, more or less entirely based of Publius' notes and speculation; I want to cite him especially here)

Director of Imperial Intelligence (special rank of the Superintendent General of the Ubiqtorate)

O-17 Director General of Intelligence
O-16 Director General
O-15 Executive Director
O-14 Director
O-13 Sub-director
O-12 Deputy Director
O-11 Assistant Director
O-10 Chief Inspector
O-9 High Inspector
O-8 Inspector
O-7 Sub-inspector
O-6 Assistant Inspector
O-5 Spectator Major
O-4 Spectator
O-3 Sub-spectator
O-2 Neotenant
O-1 Sub-neotenant
Officer Candidate ??Neotenant Candidate??Cadet??

CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
WO-1 Warrant Officer 1

Senior Enlisted Advisor Master Technarch of Imperial Intelligence?

E-9 Master Technarch
E-8 Senior Technarch
E-7 Chief Technarch
E-6 Technarch First Class
E-5 Technarch Second Class
E-4 Technarch Third Class
E-3 Technician
E-2 Technician Apprentice
E-1 Technician Recruit

This one does bother me a little. First, I am not all that happy with canon having Intelligence be an armed service of its own - it sounds somewhat counterintuitive and makes for unnecessary complications. Is it necessary that we keep that? Most of the existing EU does not appear to acknowledge that ("Special Agent" and "Director" hardly being military ranks), and it came from a sourcebook to start with. If we do stick with it, I would prefer simply having Army-ish ranks.

A question on the rank of Technarch: whence does this come? Is this Publius extrapolating from the "Grade-X Tech" stuff in Mara Jade?

As for the COMPNOR goons; there is a seperate New Order Party and COMPNOR; we could use SWified Nazi Party ranks for the former and something else related for the latter. As for COMPForce, I think Observ needs SWified SA or Algermine-SS ranks; Assault should use SWified Waffen-SS ranks.

Agreement. And the Political Reliability Observers should have Commissar ranks. . .

My NRDF ranks would be broadly similar, except they don't have special grades; Fleet Admiral is replaced with Admiral of the Fleet (and the head of the Navy is one), maybe replace Surface/Field Marshal for their Army, haven't decided.

All right. In addition, I think the Rebels should also have a special air/space arm, even if the Empire does not.

I like the Church of the Immortal Emperor (they don't dispute he died, so perhaps a better name would be "Church of the Emperor Resurrected", "Church of the Emperor Reborn", or "Church of the Emperor Reincarnate"), but "church" really has specific Christian meanings and connotations I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Something like "The Ecclessia of the Noble Confessors of the Emperor Reincarnate" for the actual body of believers, "Imperial Reincarnatism" (by supporters) and "Palpatinic Necrolatry [worship of the dead Palpatine]" (by opponents). Figuratively called "Submission to Prophecy" (heh, a play on Islam) also by adherents. Its led by the Most Wise Prophetic Synod consisting of supposedly the secret (but widely rumored) body of experts of esoterica and Jedi soothsaying which advised and guided the wise old Emperor. They know prophesize his return and lead the body of those wish to pay fealty and respect to the great sovereign and search for signs of and to precipitate his return.

I need to think a little more on this, perhaps (Ugh!) re-read the books.

[Vehrec]

I was looking over your ideas, and I have to say that I don't like your timeline very much. For one thing, I'd much rather see the whole of the Clone Wars rather than just half of it. We can kick the off in the firest movie, sure, but it seems a bit much thematically to introduce Clones and Jedi and Republic and some very major characters all in one movie. Maybe the war starts conventional and goes Clone partway through as both sides run low on volunteers.

Mandelorians should be almost entirely wiped out if they feature at all-Boba Fett must be the last one, and a rather pathetic example defeated by a blind smuggler.

I don't give two shits about the ranking system, it could have GRAND HIGH BUGGERUP in it for all I care.

[Darth Hoth]

Here is a provisional rank setup for the SAGroup, CompForce and CompForce Assault (for discussion and consideration) at the Battle of Yavin, from lowest to highest:

SAGroup:
Youth ranks:
Youth member
Section Leader
Senior Section Leader
Band Leader
Senior Band Leader
Cadre Leader
Senior Cadre Leader
Unit Leader
Senior Unit Leader

Adult leadership ranks:
Area Leader
Senior Area Leader
Staff Leader

CompForce:
Enlisted:
Trooper
Senior Trooper
Assault Trooper
Section Leader
Senior Section Leader
Troop Leader
Senior Troop Leader
Chief Troop Leader

Officers:
Junior Assault Leader
Senior Assault Leader
Assault Unit Leader
Senior Assault Unit Leader
Standard Leader
Brigade Leader
Group Leader
Senior Group Leader
Supreme Group Leader
Supreme Staff Leader

CompForce Assault Ranks are the same as the base organization with some small differences:
Brigade Leader, Group Leader, Senior Group Leader, and Supreme Group Leader are replaced with Brigadier, Major General, Lieutenant General and General respectively.

(Ranks are derived from Hitler Youth, SA and SS ranks, along with Harry Turtledove)

My view is that CompForce resembles a mix of both SA Feldherrnhalle and Waffen-SS units, which explains the particular setup here.

We need a few more ranks if it is to conform to Illuminatus's extended rank table, and I think we should also include Warrant Officer ranks. I would also change the senior rank to something sounding grander, such as "Leader of CompForce of the Empire" or whatnots (more similar to Reichsführer-SS). A minor note on Assault ranks: the General ranks should be in addition to the CompForce-specific ones, not replacing them - e.g. "Group Leader and Major General, Assault".

[Admiral Felire]

Darth Hoth,

I think Lord Admiral and Lord Marshal work fine as the highest officers in charge of their respective services.

I say we drop Counter-Admiral and stick with Rear Admiral if we have to decide between the two.

I agree with you on the use of Special Agent and Director stuff rather than made up terms like Technarch. I don't think they fit, and earlier Primus said they were made by Publius.

While there are Observers I don't think they should be as prevalent or notable as the ones of the SS. But that is just me.

Vehrec

I don't know whether we were going with the idea of Clones being Republic troops like it was in canon. But if we make them the bad guys then we could have it be the clones that invade Naboo instead of droids.

And while I do agree with you on the seeing it all aspect, the movies are supposed to be the biggest events in the time period. What they cover is the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker and the rise of the Empire. To that end I think that showing the begining of the Clone Wars is a somewhat mistake thing to do.

Escalation, sure, but not begining. I also think that the analogy of Palpatine being Churchill to Valorum being Chamberlin is a good one, which means the war must have already been existent.

The only reason I included the Mandaloreans for Episode 2 was that somebody suggested it and since I didn't have either a negative or a positive on the issue, I added it. I don't care whether it sthem or not, though I do like the idea of Alderran or another Core World (like Coruscant) being attacked. That is would be the point of why Palpatine becomes Emperor - the War finally got to the sacred Core rather than the 'lawless' regions.

[Vehrec]

I also think that the analogy of Palpatine being Churchill to Valorum being Chamberlin is a good one, which means the war must have already been existent.

We should avoid Blatent copying of historical events or even following them too closely. Make comprarisions, but don't for the love of the Force make direct connections.

What they cover is the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker and the rise of the Empire. To that end I think that showing the begining of the Clone Wars is a somewhat mistake thing to do.

On the Contrary, show everyone the Galaxy at Peace. Show glittering City-planets, worlds with a hundred billion kilometers of artfully constructed coastline, and the lives the Jedi have lived for over 1000 generations. Then show how it all comes crashing down. The Prequels are night falling on civilization, and to truely apreciate that, we must see the galaxy before the night fell.

[Pelranius]

For the Observer issues, perhaps there should be both a official, visible observer for the sake of formality and morale, and then an infiltrated agent to carry out covert surveillance?

[Admiral Felire]

The connection was done to aid the other writers in this project to figure out the themes that we are going about. Its never going to be mentioned or whatever in the stories. But it is a useful thing to have.

And I see nothing wrong with doing it like that. This is afterall a Science Fiction Fantasy setting.

We only have 3 prequels that we can use. We need to figure out the most important glimpses and decide what would make the best movie ideas (if we were to every make movies). And while I agree with you that seeing the galaxy as it stood for a thousand generations would be entertaining and beautiful and awesome, I don't think its something that fits exactly what we want as a story.

We could technically have Episode 1 be before and at the start of the Clone Wars, Episode 2 be at the near end of it, and Episode 3 be a decade afterward. Episode 2 will have Palpatine become Emperor, Episode 3 will have the duel and the fall of Anakin into Vader.

But honestly, I kinda like the idea of having Episode 1 be in the middle. But that is just me.

Pelranus

I think that idea makes sense. It also shows a sense of intelligence. There are things the official one can learn that the other one cannot, and there are things that the undercover agent can learn that the official one cannot. You gain maximum intellignece.

[Darth Hoth]

For the Observer issues, perhaps there should be both a official, visible observer for the sake of formality and morale, and then an infiltrated agent to carry out covert surveillance?

You have that in the canon already: First, formal Political Reliability Observers with ideological policing their only duty, then CompForce Observers (different branch despite a similar name) being the marginally subtler alternative, more like a Nazi "morale officer" than a Politruk, and finally hidden ISB "sleeper agents" who have entirely different official roles and send their report in secret.

Yes, we do not see it in the films, I know, but WEG turned the Empire into Imperium of Man-style alarmist paranoids with triple-redundant security. . .

[Darth Hoth]

We should avoid Blatent copying of historical events or even following them too closely. Make comprarisions, but don't for the love of the Force make direct connections.

Agreed. Above all, we should not include references to contemporary politics (no "Triad of Evil" shit, &c.).

On the Contrary, show everyone the Galaxy at Peace. Show glittering City-planets, worlds with a hundred billion kilometers of artfully constructed coastline, and the lives the Jedi have lived for over 1000 generations. Then show how it all comes crashing down. The Prequels are night falling on civilization, and to truely apreciate that, we must see the galaxy before the night fell.

That causes timeline problems with the scope of the war that Illuminatus and I imagined. Hmm, perhaps we could have a lengthy, Wheel of Time-style prologue about how the Republic was in peacetime? Otherwise, I would make that a major theme, the war; young heroes like Anakin would not remember peace, to them it would be mystical, while older characters such as Palpatine or the senior Jedi would lament the golden age that was the past.

[Admiral Felire]

WEG turned the Empire into Nazis which is a cultural and political aspect not actually seen or supported in the three orgional trilogy movies. While I love WEG I find that aspect of what they did (and thus the EU did) to be annoying. But its too ingrained for us to change it now.

--

Darth Hoth

Like I said above, my use of the connection was just for our own purposes on a broad level - you know the incompetent war leader is replaced by the competent war leader. That is pretty much the conly connection, and its canon, just remove the 'war' in my above statement.

I think that within the project's internal phase using such basics to sum up a lot of things in a simple point is useful and helps to make things understood between people.

Your second point is also something that I had to work with in trying to figure out how things work. Using the idea of no more than 20 years between movies (and mostly around 10 for each prequel movie) there is no way that we oculd have an Episode set before the chaos.

Of course we could have an Episode 0, which serves to make what the galaxy looks like before the Clone Wars began. It is an Episode within the saga because it will have a huge point, and not be something that occurs in between like novels.

In addition, I like the idea of the young heroes of the Clone Wars and the Empire not knowing the peace and security of the 25,000 year Republic. Which is why the peace, security and order of the Empire is supported - it brought something back that hadn't been seen in almost a century.

[Darth Hoth]

Clearly it should be a court party which decides to move in opposition to Isard as Regent. Perhaps it counts a large number of governors and Moffs amongst it, and perhaps it is the components of the Emperor's Ruling Circle that didn't decide to toe her line and keep their heads down with Dangor.

I thought it could be some kind of reaction from the Grand Moffs and other Outer Rim-dependent bigwigs who did not like her "withdraw to the Core" edict and set up an alternative government; this would explain why the Grand Moffs are heavily overrepresented on the Council. Or maybe not; the Palpatine connection should probably be emphasised in any case.

I had an idea that the "Church of the Dark Side" was not formally called that, but rather that's a slur by the New Republic; that the necromantic faith was designed to split the masses from the party apparatus of COMPNOR, which has its own faction (led by Kaine). So basically Pestage (real) becomes Regent, the COMPNORites decide that with Palpatine dead, its time to finish the revolution and Kaine manages to try and lead opposition to Pestage. Pestage founds the Church in conjunction with Isard for disinformation. Have it that it was rumored and known that a group of Jedi soothsayers (who remained loyal) were secret advisors to the Emperor (this obviously secretly being the Prophets of the Dark Side, but few outside the heirarchy knew who they really were, hence the rumor). So impostors are produced to lead a necromantic faith in the Emperor, which manages to deprive the mass support to the party apparatus for their move against Pestage. Kaine leaves for exile in his governorate with what is left of his power base and sets up the Pentastar Alignment. So Isard takes power, kills off the biggest rivals to her (and ahem coincidentally those major rivals of Dangor in the ERC, because they're both wreckers and in on Palpatine's return conspiracy). The NR has cut off the Alignment from Isard, fortunately for Kaine, and the NR and Kaine more or less avoid each other - the NR doesn't want a second front in the rear, and Kaine wants to wait out for a better day. What's left of the ERC clusters into three factions, the coupists (the ERC faction which spearheaded the coup against Pestage (clone) and composed of rivals to Dangor), which is more or less completely purged and dispersed by Isard; the collaborators (the Dangor coalition); and the oppositionists (the fence-sitters during the run-up to the Pestage coup who now have second-thoughts about Isard). The third faction is particularly agitated because Isard's centralization and consolidation policies have been undermining their power base (many of them are governors and sponsors of governors, whose prerogatives are being assumed by Isard's wartime government). The oppositionist faction of the ERC (clustered around the court party known facetiously as 'the Central Committee' of Grand Moffs or even the tongue-in-cheek 'Mofference') allies itself with Legitimists, and finds an unlikely ally in the Prophets of the Church, who've since leveraged their influence over the masses into power and patronage and drifted significantly from their original Imperial Intelligence orbit (and from Isard). The Church resolves to back a Legitimist candidate with a government formed mostly from amongst the oppositionist ERC. This is the political background I've developed. Who is "Triocolous" exactly, where he comes from, and what his background is we'll decide on.

Might work. I have not really thought it through, but it sounds good. We should probably emphasise the importance of the mutineers, as they are the main antagonists for the Alliance in that arc; i.e., they should have some chance of actually pulling their stunts off.

I haven't actually read and never owned GoDV, so you'll have to help me, Hoth. We'll have to decide how much to keep.

Here is a piece on GoDV that should be good introduction to the plot and show the feel of it. Be warned, though, that you read at your own peril, it is retarded enough to give the weak of heart a stroke or two.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think you're on to something by having the governors left out in the wilderness having a greater slice of the pie in their attempt at setting up a state as they are abandoned/challenged by Isard's centralization policies. Sort of foreshadowed by Kaine's withdrawal to his own powerbase which he changes into a self-sufficient holdout. And this tendency and experience on the Rim can be the basis/inspiration for the Moff Council-based politics of Pelleaon's Imperial Remnant.

[Darth Hoth]

Well, yes, there is a connection there. Also, they would take less damage from the post-DE destruction of the central Imperial state, with them already having set up alternative mechanisms in earnest. Which, in turn, might explain them eventually gaining the upper hand versus the Core warlords.

[Admiral Felire]

I like the idea of the Moffs in the outer rim going no to Issard and thus setting up their own internal and allied political systems. In other words as things fracture they fracture into Core and Rim first. Then later on the Core fractures into different minor forces and the Rim unity fractures into its own forces. The Rim forces are then regained by Thrawn (for the most part). They fracture again after his defeat.