Second Galactic Empire (Independent Project)

[Admiral Felire]

First of all, this is not deviating from TNOiP because we are not talking about Palpatine's Empire, so there is nothing in there that we are stuck with. We are talking about an Empire established a thousand year hence which is based on on the Second Republic and First Empire, as well as in parts to the First Republic.

And yes, Darth Raptor, that is the point I was trying to get at. He is in charge, he is doing what he wants, so he doesn't need to delegate it that much. But because he is one man he does not agents to support him - which means various other officials.

But I honestly don't see how what I have written is that far from that which we have already. I mean Palpatine ruled and spoke when he wanted to, despite his various political appointees. But just because the Emperor rules directly, well, there might be a need for a guy whose job is to organize all the paper work so that he can govern and not micro-manage.

I'm really interested in knowing what others think.

I just think that there is no reason for us to throw out a concept just because its not supported by real world facts, we are talking about a fictional universe after all.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You don't actually need to change anything about the First Empire to get that, though. The Grand Vizier and ERC were essentially Palpatine surrogates appointed to keep things chugging along while he played dark wizard in the basement. There was nothing stopping him from taking a more active role beyond a lack of inclination on his part and for the sake of perpetuating convenient myths. Presumably, if you've got an Empire where the Galactic Emperor is "knee deep" in stuff then there wouldn't be a Grand Vizier or ERC. The Emperor would be doing all that personally rather than delegating it.

I'm against deviating from TNOiP more than we have to in order to get a "good" and stable Galactic Empire. For those purposes, it's pretty clear what has to go. The rest should stay.

I agree completely. Publius' works are canon for the project, and the second Empire should follow the form of the first where possible to maintain continuity. Oh, and the "ERC" wasn't the Palpatine surrogates, but rather the conglomeration of interests and court power that coalesced in opposition to Pestage's regency in the first year after Endor, and was responsible for deposing him a coup (replacing him with a troika), and would later reassume power (under the leadership of Dangor) once Isard abandoned Coruscant. You're thinking of the His Imperial Majesty' Most Serene Ruling Council. There's the Imperial Ruling Council (Palp surrogates), the Emperor's Ruling Circle (post-Endor court faction), and the Imperial Interim Ruling Council (the post-Palpatine, Crimson Empire regency).

The issue is that you insist on calling it the "head of government", which it is not. And Palpatine ruled very, very hands-off.

[Admiral Felire]

I don't have a problem with using real world examples as evidence. What I have a problem is when we are limited by the real world despite what might be better for us. If what we want cannot be done through what has occurred in the real world, then I am all for making something new, unique or different.

I am not for hamstringing the creative process of setting building because of any need for 'realism'. If its fun, if it works, and if its interesting and good then I am all for implementing it.

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To me the placement of the statement of Head of Government or Head of State means who gets the authority to act as he sees fit. There can be vice agents and that is technically what the Prime Minister is in my example. He is a vice ruler for the Emperor in matters of bureaucracy. The authority and responsibility is in the Emperor, he just acts out those policies and authority so the Emperor does not directly have to.

So yeah, I disagree with the point that just because he appointed a Prime Minister that Prime Minister is head of government. That Prime Minister is Prime because he oversees the other ministers, not because he is ultimately in charge of the process of government.

I honestly don't have a problem with making the Emperor an autocrat. If he is a Force User and remains in the light, if he has heavy training and a powerful Senate and body to make sure he does not fall - than I am all for it. On a galactic level having an autocratic government is not a bad thing if it doesn't touch the day-to-day lives of its citizens, which it more than likely won't as that is the practice of the sector and planetary governments.

But at the same time, there will be some things he cannot do. And these things will be laid clearly in the Imperial Constuttion. They will be narrow things, things that won't effect him from day to day or year to year, but they might make it so he cannot use Death Stars or exterminate a race without Senate approval or become Sith or something.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with using real world examples as a basis, what I have a problem is when we are limited to only the real world and not to what we need it to be.

Its the same thing with the creation of ranks, titles positions and all that. Just because its not done in the real world doesn't not mean it should not be done in the world of Star Wars.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Autocrats don't rule according to constitutions. He can't be an autocrat and be limited by a constitution. And I'm just saying. If we're using a mixed system with a Senate, there should be a semi-independent head of government. Call him the chancellor, or the prime minister, or minister-president, whatever. Have him usually subject to the monarch but have some leeway, and so you can have interesting political situations as the monarch, aristocracy, and senate compete over control of government policy.

[Darth Raptor]

To me the placement of the statement of Head of Government or Head of State means who gets the authority to act as he sees fit. There can be vice agents and that is technically what the Prime Minister is in my example. He is a vice ruler for the Emperor in matters of bureaucracy. The authority and responsibility is in the Emperor, he just acts out those policies and authority so the Emperor does not directly have to.

So yeah, I disagree with the point that just because he appointed a Prime Minister that Prime Minister is head of government. That Prime Minister is Prime because he oversees the other ministers, not because he is ultimately in charge of the process of government.

It's important to remember that this is a monarchy. In a republic, final authority would be vested in the people, not the head of government. In a monarchy, final authority is vested in the monarch. The head of government is just that, with extrinsic authority in either case. By your logic, the President of the United States isn't the head of government because he answers to the people. This is a non-issue; you're simply laboring under a factual misconception. Nothing of importance is being contested here.

[Admiral Felire]

Yeah I know that he cannot be an autocrat, I'm just saying that I wouldn't mind if he was.

Though I will say this, a constitution could be set up to limit other positions and not the Emperors. But that is not what we are talking about here, so yeah. Moving on.

Okay, while I agree with you that there should be some sort of semi-independent position so that we can have stories around the conflict, I don't think it should be the executive. Why don't we make it the legislative instead that has some independent positions.

We could call it the Chancellor and have the positition be elected by the Senate from amongst its own number. While the Emperor can call for his removal, it is the Senate that has to vote to make that work. The Chancellorship cannot be permanently disbanded and the Senate's ability to voice its opinion cannot be blocked.

This was done so as to make it so the disbanding of the Senate for the duration of the emergency cannot actually happen.

And of course it allows us to have stories in which the legislative leadership has problems with the executive leadership - headed by the Emperor - and then, thus, stories ensure.

Story options are good, especially if we are going to do things like internal political problems, which I am always up for.

At the same time though, I think the ability of the Emperor to visit and see the Senate should not be restricted. He doesn't have to ask permission to enter or watch, he can do it at anytime and no meeting of the Senate can be denied to him (not to his agents, to him). This would lead to some secret things that cause entertaining incidents in the setting.

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By the way, Illuminatus Primus have you posted the ideas you mentioned you had about the Second Empire in this thread. I would be interested in reading how you thought it should be organized and systematized.

[Admiral Felire]

Darth Raptor,

The President is the Head of Government because he oversees, using his personal authority as President, th executive branch and the Cabinet. I want that for the Emperor, I want him to oversee the executive branch and the cabinet of the Second Galactic Empire.

That is my issue. It has nothing to do with who holds all the cards - the people or the monarchy - and everything to do with who is able to direct and present and create policy. I want it to be the Emperor, and if he can do that, if he can direct and manage the executive branch than he is by declaration the Head of Government.

That is what I want.

[Darth Raptor]

What I'm trying to say is that you already HAVE what you want and whatever reforms we make to the Imperial system are unlikely to change that. The Emperor will NOT be an irrelevant figurehead and he WILL be the font of power for the executive branch. The rest is semantic quibbling.

However, I am 100% against another autocracy. A strong monarchy doesn't need to be an absolute monarchy. Not in order to satisfy your requirements. We can meet them easily and without rendering the main saga meaningless.

[Admiral Felire]

I never said that he should be an autocrat, I just said a lot of power should be in his hands.

I mean I wouldn't mind if he was, but I am not sent on that so yeah, no problem with him not being one.

Isn't all politics semantic quibbling, that is what they do. I was just pointing out exactly what I wished for it to be organized like, which means he should be declared Head of Government like the US President.

Now, I am more set on the actual power than I am on certain terms being used. But I just want those reading and contributing to this thread knowing how I am thinking on certain issues.

So that is fine, though I think we should come up with a general organizational chart of the government of the second Galactic Empire. It would come in handy.

That and maybe general history thoughts.

[Illuminatus Primus]

My idea is kind of like Galvatron's from PSW (well, we're both inspired by common sources, the original script drafts for ANH); a dynastic-style Empire with a strong Emperor that actually works for awhile, maybe a hundred to a couple hundred years. The old Jedi would be dissociated from the State but not persecuted, just all their prerogatives and privileges taken away, they're on their own wandering about, replaced by an order of statist Jedi like your concept (I don't know if I'd call them Jedi). Its all hunky-dory until the succession is usurped by an asshole member of the Imperial House in cahoots with the Sith or some other dark side prick. They eventually become the power behind the throne in conjunction with traitors and power-hungry amongst the government, aristocracy, and/or peerage.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, that's more or less what I had in mind. The Jedi were marginalized long before they were eradicated.

Obi-Wan, of course, was always the idealist and continued to serve in his official capacity as a military commander during the Clone Wars thinking he could still make difference within the confines of a continually deteriorating system.

[Admiral Felire]

I agree with you on all your points up until we get to the dynastic struggles. I will talk about them in the next paragraph. I also agree with your point that some of the Old Jedi still exist and are allowed. I figure they are allowed to operate due to the truest the Empire gives to their training and the fact that they monitor themselves. The New Jedi (the ones used by the Empire) call themselves Jedi to reference back to history, but most of their training is different. Also, I called them the Imperial Order of Knights Jedi, or Imperial Knights. Jedi is only used in the official name, not everyday speech.

Okay, I don't have a direct problem with the idea of their being a problem with the dynastic system. That is all campaign possibility and is cool. Its just that I would like to explore more on the cocnept before I directly say yes to it.

Okay, so the Empire existed for a couple of hundred years with multiple successions all hunky dory and normal. Then something happens and a succession crisis occurs. Which will be the main plot of our story at this point.

It would be an interesting twist if the 'good guys' are those that are fighting for the return of the real Emperor to his thrown, while the 'bad guys' are the ones that replaced him. In other words both the good and the bad are Imperials, just different sides of the block - one wants the 'good emperor' to gain power while the other wants the the 'evil sith emperor' to rule. You gotta have the Sith.

The third faction wants a return to republic but they are not a major force by any stretch of the imagination.

But I don't know if I really want the Empire to have already fallen to corruption and darkness by the time in our plot. I mean falling yeah, but not to the point that it has been dark for centuries.

You know, we could look at the original plot line of Star Wars, it might give us some ideas on the good empire deal.

[Admiral Felire]

Galvatron

This thread is about the Second Galactic Empire a thousand years in the future. So their is no Obi-Wan, hehe.

But your point about the Jedi being marginalized could still be used. In this case they were marginalized and replaced by the Imperial Knights order of force users. Most of them remain loyal to the Empire despite its increasingly dark nature.

So the entire point would be for your heroes to rescue the empire from itself and bring back its goodness. hehe

I don't think there should be a Jedi Purge, though the Sith behind the 'evil' empire could conduct witch hunts on loyalist Imperial Knights who refuse to bow down to the increasingly evil orders.

[Galvatron]

I'm just here to hurl out random ideas hoping that some of them will take root and grow. You can ignore the ones that don't apply to this concept.

[Admiral Felire]

Random ideas are awesome. I once took a single sentence that somebody threw at me and created a 100 page setting from it. So yeah, ideas are very welcome and appreciated.

Here is a question for you Galvatron, how would have the Second Empire be operated and formed and what would be the interesting story twist that you would want out of it.

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An idea for plot would be the use of the soul exchange power that Palpatine used in Dark Empire. Star Wars is a fantasy myth in a science fiction based universe so we could recycle some mythos. One of which is the concept that sometimes one should look deeper then who is the bad guy. That what it appears to be might not be exactly what it is.

The Sith are patient, and they are capable of waiting a long time secretly and with no one the wiser until they act. So they waited a thousand years and then watched silently as an Empire was formed, an Empire that they themselves had no part in bringing about. They knew that the Jedi and other factions would look to see if it was a Sith plot, which occurred the Jedi and other agents looked hard but found nothing linking. Because there was nothing to find.

The Sith sat waiting as the Empire grew and matured. Survived various plots and incidents. Eventually they found a child of the reigning Emperor that was perfect for their manipulation. And after some time they used their ancient Sith powers to pretty much cause the soul of the Sith Master reigning for that era to go into the body of the Imperial Prince.

And as one learns that cycles exist Star Wars, the Imperial Prince had a twin brother. The possessed brother managed to gain the throne when the father died while the other brother went off acting as an Imperial Agent. But things decades after the possessed brothers rule began that started making the other brother worried. Darkness seemed to begin falling around the Empire that was a shining beacon of light.

Then things finally overflowed, the Emperor sent agents to kill the other brother who was required to go underground. To try and gather support to figure out what had happened and to try and save the galaxy from the mad performances of the brother.

This is where things begin - something major just happened that brought attention of the galaxy to the darkness growing at the heart. And the Prince just declared a Royal Injunction against his brother. The fight has begun. Sides are forming.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't want the bad Emperor to be a Sith or any of that. I want him to be a sniveling man too small for his ambition, an avaricious schemer who lusted for power and made a Faustian bargain with the Sith or Krath or whatever and opened Pandora's Box. He then became marginalized as a puppet. I think its more interesting to have an emperor who exists but is being used by his power behind the throne. This is also what happened in the early Lucas scripts.

Also, my concept was that the bad emperor would usurp the throne by force or assassinate the claimants in the order of succession ahead of him, or rig the electoral process (if it is an electoral monarchy).

[Admiral Felire]

The point of my idea above is that the Emperor is not actually the Sith - the dude that is possessing the soul is the Sith. So while instead of having the "Luke, I am your father" moment we have the "You mean my brother is still inside their, and he is still good. We need to save him" moment, which is equally as epic and cool. And its a myth fitting the genra which is another bonus.

In this case you still have the emperor who made a bargin, but didn't realize what was getting into, he just has a been possessed by another soul.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I like the idea of the emperor being controlled by his advisers because he's a weak man, from the early scripts. And I'd like to keep the possession think to an extremely rare trick, one Palpatine has because of his peerless knowledge.

[Admiral Felire]

That could work, of course, I'm not saying it cannot. But I kinda like the big reveal that the Emperor is actually not evil, rather just controlled. (using my possession idea)

And it is still a rare trick. Having one Sith a thousand years in the future use it doesn't make it common.

[Darth Hoth]

Autocrats don't rule according to constitutions. He can't be an autocrat and be limited by a constitution.

Actually, Nicholas II did and was, after 1906; the Fundamental Laws then erected defined the Emperor's authority as a "limited autocracy", however oxymoronic that sounds. Just an anecdote. . .

I would agree that, due to all historical precedent and particularly the models we are using, the Emperor should not head his own government. This would be an appointed task, vested in a lesser (a Chancellor or whatever). I do believe that the Emperor should be the commander-in-chief, though in all likelihood he would delegate the actual responsibilities of the office to someone else (perhaps the Chief of the Imperial Staff or another senior military professional). I also like the idea of the Sith/Dark Side cult being a power behind the throne instead of actually holding it. THat makes for a fair amount of sly politicking, especially in the beginning when their hold is still tenuous.

Can we still have COMPNOResque fascists being antagonists, though? Maybe as a false flag operation against the throne by the Sith?

[Admiral Felire]

I think that a COMPNOR analog should exist as a non governmental social agency. It won't be called that, after all, but something like it should exist. After all, the origonal one back in the pre-Empire days was just an organization designed to look for new and innovative ways for the Republic to survive. What I don't think is that they should be given official polticial power. That would be considered a threat.

[Pelranius]

Should there be any political competition to the COMPNOR analogue though?

I doubt that an autocracy would allow for one organization to monopolize the mass participatory politics of the day without allowing someone else to keep them in check.

[Admiral Felire]

Having multiple socially induction parties makes a lot of sense when one considers that whole unified and unitied, the Second Empire does not have the single central always existing powerhouse that the first did - no Palpatine. So because of that there are going to be a number of competing instutitons with 'Imperial' support operating. Some on worlds, some in sectors, and some galaxy wide. The COMPNOR-analog is one, I would think there would be others.

We need to come up with the basic idoelogy (in the sense of one or two words) to describe to this COMPNOR. And then we could find other platforms and create organizations around them.

[Admiral Felire]

General Timeline of Events

around a thousand post current - Due to galactic crisis xyz the Galactic Senate gives imperium to one of its Senators, who uses that power to recreate the Galactic Empire. This Senator is also a fully trained Light Side Jedi. This happened after a period of resurgent love of the Palpatine Era (kinda like how we honor the Romans, despite them being quite barbaric).

century after formation - The first Emperor of the Second Empire realizes that he has only a few years left to live so he voluntarily sets down from the Throne. He has it so his son, also a Jedi, becomes the Emperor. The Writ of Succession is created detailing the laws and practices of making a person an Emperor.

many centuries or a few millennium pass - The succession rules are followed to the letter for all these years. Some problems development but most enjoy the fact that the empire exists and most nobles work for its betterment (and their own, but their own is based on the empire's survival).

The future present - the Emperor is getting old but before he can name his successor from amongst his two sons he dies under mysterious circumstances. Before one of the sons can get back to Coruscant the other son manages to force his claim to the Throne. Through the use of force, gile and other political nonsense he is declared the Emperor.

What nobody knows is that the man who is actually the Emperor does not really rule. The actual powerhouse behind the puppet ruler is a coterie of Imperial Officers and Sith. They begin turning the various Imperial agencies from their pretty well-to-do state and into that of corruption. A purge happens against those Imperial Knights that refuse to follow the new Emperor.

Deep in the Outer Rim, the other son is not sure that anything is wrong at first. But as time goes on he realizes that all is not as it seems. Thus begins the adventures to try and gather support, defeat the forces of the Empire (under his brother's control) and bring back the glory that was his government. But he knows that he needs to be careful because he doesn't want to shatter the Empire, he wants it to survive.

(The above is taken from various discussions in the EU Project threads. Including a lot of ideas from Primus.)

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The idea that the regular Jedi are still allowed operation in the galaxy, though with the restriction that they cannot declare they speak for the government, is a nice one.

The good brother would probably use those surviving loyal Imperial Knights as well as gathered Jedi into his forces.

[Pelranius]

For other political parties, we could have libertarian types like the Rationalists, various political vehicles for specific species (i.e. Bothans) and noble houses (i.e. the Tagges), more reformed minded, tolerant people (along the lines of Windcaller and Pellaeon), frontmen for technocratic interests (the military, bureaucracy) and socialist inspired movements.