A "realistic" Power Armor unit

[Vendetta]

And that is good and sensible, but in these situations requiring that armoured support how does having a small number of very expensive power armoured troops advantage them over having a very large number of regular troops like the guard?

Smaller and simpler organisational structure, theyre easier to move around the galaxy to a place where armoured force needs to be deployed than the Guard, and can face down emerging threats whilst a full Guard mobilisation happens.

They can also operate as a concentration of force in open battle, where the enemy won't be able to bring to bear the kind of firepower required to deal with them without being overwhelmed by guardsman and Imperial Guard armour on the rest of a battlefield. (The Third Armageddon War was fought this way, overwhelming Guard presence with Marine companies mixed in to provide concentrated offensive force)

[PeZook]

Well, it's not as if the Space Marines will drop down unsupported by armour and what not. Even Dreadnaughts can be dropped from the air.

There's the slight problem of needing a relatively secure orbit for that, though.

Plus, in the kind of situation we're talking about (advance forces that are supposed to seize defence emplacements), dropping in tanks is really counterproductive - they require lots of resources, and are relatively easy to destroy if the enemy has complete control over the area.

Same problem as with powered armor suits, really. In real life, saboteurs are almost always pure infantry: they're harder to detect, they don't need support, spare parts and fuel, they can live off the land and they're expendable. And, of course, there's no way they can succesfully take and hold a large facility by themselves ; If you want to actually seize stuff, you use Ranger batallions or something similar, and the only way you can do that is if the defences are already penetrated, at least partially.

And since when has assault counted as special ops??

Since forever? Special = not done normally.

The Saint Nazaire raid was a special op, and it was also a huge assault by a brigade-sized force. So was Utah Beach - it was done by Rangers, using specialized custom-built equipment.

It was also thought to be impossible to do before they actually did it.

[Peptuck]

Thoughts on a "real" power armor unit?

Been working on a Command & Conquer fic where I tried integrating the Zone Trooper armor in with to other GDI weapons, and eventually I started interpreting them as a sort of highly mobile fire support unit for infantry and armor.

Basically, instead of the "lolz heug armor invincible!" Space Marines, ZTs don't have much heavy armor, instead using their suits' superior carrying capacity to mount jetpacks, targeting computers and sensors, and their heavy railgun rifles. They pick up targets fed to them by EVA units, UAV recon, or GDI troops in the area, jetpack or simply jog to a proper firing position while their computers and sensors plot a firing solution, and then fire their railguns the moment they've got an angle and a target. They're mostly used as medium fire-support for infantry, targeting and destroying emplacements or enemy armor, and as flanking escorts for tanks and other amror in difficult terrain, as their mobility and sensors give them a better ability to spot and eliminate threats in urban or broken terrain.

They've got their limitations, as the suits are too bulky and the railguns take too long to charge up, making them ill-suited for close combat or room-clearing. The lack of armor and delicate systems in their suits mean that ZTs can't slug it out with enemy armor, and anti-personnel weapons or enemy rifle infantry can easily kill them if they get caught in the open. They're very much a hit-and-run support unit, and not frontline infantry.

I know, it doesn't fit perfectly with how they work in-game, but its the only way I could think of to integrate Zone Troopers in a realistic setting using all their notable traits and abilities.

[Block]

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

Because you can't recover intel with a bomb. You also don't need air superiority, bunker busters and you don't have to get through an air defense net.

[Steel]

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

Because you can't recover intel with a bomb. You also don't need air superiority, bunker busters and you don't have to get through an air defense net.

How the hell do you come to the conclusion that you can teleport in a terminator squad, each of which weighs several hundred kilos and is a big chunk of metal, but you cannot teleport in a bomb?

Terminators are not really known for their intel gathering skills. If you want people or equipment intact in the facility you could just use a biological or chemical weapon.

[Peptuck]

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

Because you can't recover intel with a bomb. You also don't need air superiority, bunker busters and you don't have to get through an air defense net.

How the hell do you come to the conclusion that you can teleport in a terminator squad, each of which weighs several hundred kilos and is a big chunk of metal, but you cannot teleport in a bomb?

Terminators are not really known for their intel gathering skills. If you want people or equipment intact in the facility you could just use a biological or chemical weapon.

This is the Imperium of Man. Novel tactics like teleporting bombs is heresy.

[SAMAS]

When have Space Marines ever been used in place of the Guard? Space Marines are always special ops, it's just that they're assault troops too.

Great crusade, Horus Heresy, innumerable short stories (quite a few in Let the galaxy burn and plenty in rulebook fluff). We see so many examples of them fighting as front line troops with the guard. Thats like taking superman and having him as the security at a kryptonite factory (perhaps hes better at it than a regular guy, but its the place where hes most likely to die and can do the least good).

And since when has assault counted as special ops??

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

Because Terminators are(usually) selective in their destruction. Sure, If I needed that installation destroyed, I could send in a bomb. But I don't want it destroyed. I want it taken. Bombs can't capture important officers for interrogation. Bombs can't hold the building from attempts to retake it before the rest of my forces arrive. Bombs can't scout the area for more targets of opportunity. Bombs can't react if the situation changes.

[SAMAS]

Additionally, Bombs usually can't re-place themselves for maximum structural damage.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There's the slight problem of needing a relatively secure orbit for that, though.

That's where the Imperial Navy comes into play?

Plus, in the kind of situation we're talking about (advance forces that are supposed to seize defence emplacements), dropping in tanks is really counterproductive - they require lots of resources, and are relatively easy to destroy if the enemy has complete control over the area.

You are talking about tanks carting around with enough power to run for hours to days (if I recall). Barring any problems, there's also the option of orbital bombardment if it really comes to it.

Same problem as with powered armor suits, really. In real life, saboteurs are almost always pure infantry: they're harder to detect, they don't need support, spare parts and fuel, they can live off the land and they're expendable. And, of course, there's no way they can succesfully take and hold a large facility by themselves ; If you want to actually seize stuff, you use Ranger batallions or something similar, and the only way you can do that is if the defences are already penetrated, at least partially.

There are stealth units within the the Imperial Guard that could go in early if I recall. Also, Space Marines can go without food for a while, if I recall.

[Steel]

When have Space Marines ever been used in place of the Guard? Space Marines are always special ops, it's just that they're assault troops too.

Great crusade, Horus Heresy, innumerable short stories (quite a few in Let the galaxy burn and plenty in rulebook fluff). We see so many examples of them fighting as front line troops with the guard. Thats like taking superman and having him as the security at a kryptonite factory (perhaps hes better at it than a regular guy, but its the place where hes most likely to die and can do the least good).

And since when has assault counted as special ops??

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

Because Terminators are(usually) selective in their destruction. Sure, If I needed that installation destroyed, I could send in a bomb. But I don't want it destroyed. I want it taken. Bombs can't capture important officers for interrogation. Bombs can't hold the building from attempts to retake it before the rest of my forces arrive. Bombs can't scout the area for more targets of opportunity. Bombs can't react if the situation changes.

Well see the above post for types of real world bomb that can take the place intact, let alone what the future civilisations will have at their disposal. Terminators don't have any means of subduing prisoners quickly, and given the imperiums interrogation techniques, i dont think you're likely to get many people coming quietly.

Additionally, Bombs usually can't re-place themselves for maximum structural damage.

You seriously think that swapping out a squad of terminators for an equal weight of explosives will have difficulty destroying any structure based on where they are located?? You could destroy an entire Hive with normal nuclear weapons for the weight of a terminator squad, let alone the weapons the IoM can use.

[Steel]

There's the slight problem of needing a relatively secure orbit for that, though.

That's where the Imperial Navy comes into play?

A secure orbit that isnt there if the orbital defences you are proposing dropping right on top of exist.

Plus, in the kind of situation we're talking about (advance forces that are supposed to seize defence emplacements), dropping in tanks is really counterproductive - they require lots of resources, and are relatively easy to destroy if the enemy has complete control over the area.

You are talking about tanks carting around with enough power to run for hours to days (if I recall). Barring any problems, there's also the option of orbital bombardment if it really comes to it.

When it gets to the stage of using and needing tanks, why are you using the power armour? Are they really going to be that much more effective than normal troops to justify their massively incerased drop weight, size and cost?

Same problem as with powered armor suits, really. In real life, saboteurs are almost always pure infantry: they're harder to detect, they don't need support, spare parts and fuel, they can live off the land and they're expendable. And, of course, there's no way they can succesfully take and hold a large facility by themselves ; If you want to actually seize stuff, you use Ranger batallions or something similar, and the only way you can do that is if the defences are already penetrated, at least partially.

There are stealth units within the the Imperial Guard that could go in early if I recall. Also, Space Marines can go without food for a while, if I recall.

So what are the marines doing planetside that the regular guard cant then exactly?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

A secure orbit that isnt there if the orbital defences you are proposing dropping right on top of exist.

That effectively renders any ground action moot?

When it gets to the stage of using and needing tanks, why are you using the power armour? Are they really going to be that much more effective than normal troops to justify their massively incerased drop weight, size and cost?

Jeez, ever heard of combine ops? Since when do Tanks operate alone, even in modern day?

So what are the marines doing planetside that the regular guard cant then exactly?

Most of the ground action is conducted by the Imperial Guard. Space Marines are for places which offer more resistance than the average Imperial Guard infantry regiment can't handle. They are after all, Shock forces meant to fight on the front line. You know, a number of modern armies do have elite front line troops.

[Vain]

Remember that there are more occupied planets in the Imperium than there are space marines, period. There is no question that the Imperium stamps out orders of magnitude more shitty tanks than space marines, let alone however many gajillion (it's a science term) Imperial Guard grunts that there are. I would not be surprised if it turned out that the Imperium has more capital ships in its navy than it has individual space marines.

There is no question that they are expensive, rare special ops troops who are used primarily in situations that suit their strengths. The galaxy is in such a state of constant warfare on a such a huge scale, and the space marines are few enough in number, that I assume that the corner case situations that they are ideally suited for are still numerous enough to tax their resources.

[PeZook]

Space Marines have one giant advantage going for them in the insane world of 40K: Reliability. A Guard regiment fighting Chaos is always suspect. Space Marines aren't, and you can use them for prolonged periods of time on warp-infested battlefield with little risk of them falling.

And, of course, if the Guard has genetically engineered supermen capable of purging an entire regiment without breaking a sweat, this probably does good things for their loyalty.

[Rye]

Alternatively, a regiment of PDF troopers is no use if a dozen Terminators teleport into your command bunker.

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

There'll be something left to capture and use?

[andrewgpaul]

Frankly, it depends on how thick a mountain you can force a teleport beam through. It's possible you might be able to teleport into somewhere you couldn't bomb, or at least, not without unacceptable collateral damage.

PeZook, Lufgt Huron might disagree with you regarding the absolute loyalty of Space Marines. The only chapter with a 100% loyalty rating is the Grey Knights.

[Lord Relvenous]

PeZook, Lufgt Huron might disagree with you regarding the absolute loyalty of Space Marines. The only chapter with a 100% loyalty rating is the Grey Knights.

I was about to mention this also, but i think i know what he means. Guard units fighting chaos, demons, Dark Eldar, really any terrifying thing are less likely to stiffen the line in response to the greater threat and are more likely to break ranks and turn the battle into a rout. Space Marines will fight to the last, glorifying the Emperor as they do. A good example of the great value of Space Marines on the front lines can be seen in Warriors of Ultramar. In the book, the world of Ultramar is under siege by a Tyranid splinter fleet. During the attacks on the world capitol, the Tyranid brood utilized extremely hazardous biological infectants and weapons on the defenders. The IG were not able to stay on the front lines because of their inability to survive this. The Space Marines were tasked with holding the lines during these preliminary assaults, then after the bombardments, the IG soldiers could return and hold the line with them. Also, after a line of defense is broken, eighty-odd Marines are able to fight a delaying action long enough to allow thousands of Imperial guardsmen to reach the next line of defense. That's the value of a highly-trained, heavily armed and armored force.

[PeZook]

PeZook, Lufgt Huron might disagree with you regarding the absolute loyalty of Space Marines. The only chapter with a 100% loyalty rating is the Grey Knights.

They're not 100% loyal, but there's an order of magnitude difference between SMs and Guard, and the SMs will only be likely to turn if they fight hardcore Chaos shit. If you send them to put down a rebellion, they will not join it, and can serve as an excellent tool to discourage any Guard general with delusions of grandeur from doing something stupid.

[SAMAS]

Great crusade, Horus Heresy, innumerable short stories (quite a few in Let the galaxy burn and plenty in rulebook fluff). We see so many examples of them fighting as front line troops with the guard. Thats like taking superman and having him as the security at a kryptonite factory (perhaps hes better at it than a regular guy, but its the place where hes most likely to die and can do the least good).

And since when has assault counted as special ops??
Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

Because Terminators are(usually) selective in their destruction. Sure, If I needed that installation destroyed, I could send in a bomb. But I don't want it destroyed. I want it taken. Bombs can't capture important officers for interrogation. Bombs can't hold the building from attempts to retake it before the rest of my forces arrive. Bombs can't scout the area for more targets of opportunity. Bombs can't react if the situation changes.

Well see the above post for types of real world bomb that can take the place intact,

Which post? The one above this one or the ones above mine don't say much on the subject.

[ let alone what the future civilisations will have at their disposal.

And if they don't have them?

Terminators don't have any means of subduing prisoners quickly,

They're called Power Fists.

and given the imperiums interrogation techniques, i dont think you're likely to get many people coming quietly.

Quietly or not, come they shall.

Additionally, Bombs usually can't re-place themselves for maximum structural damage.

You seriously think that swapping out a squad of terminators for an equal weight of explosives will have difficulty destroying any structure based on where they are located?? You could destroy an entire Hive with normal nuclear weapons for the weight of a terminator squad, let alone the weapons the IoM can use.[/quote]

And if you don't want to destroy the hive? Or the city around the base? Or the base around the command center? Or the command center itself? Again, we're trying to take things intact here. If I wanted it destroyed without consideration to collateral damage, I have this lovely thing called a Lance that doesn't have to worry about teleporting at all.

[white_rabbit]

They're called Power Fists.

To expand on this, if you are using Terminators to capture someone, I expect simply pointing a large bore cannon or two at them might work well.

Alternitively, the Termies can use auxiliary grenade launchers attached to powerfists, their stormbolters theoretically can be used in this role as well. Grenade harnesses are used with terminator armour occasionally too.

gas-grenades or stun bombs aren't exactly unknown in 40k either.

Frankly, it depends on how thick a mountain you can force a teleport beam through. It's possible you might be able to teleport into somewhere you couldn't bomb, or at least, not without unacceptable collateral damage.

Teleport beam penetrative capabilities range from the "five metres" of solid material in Codex Imperialis, to an entire planet in a Ciaphas Cain novel.

I expect theres some middle ground and variables like density of matter, sensors etc.

A secure orbit that isnt there if the orbital defences you are proposing dropping right on top of exist.

Secure orbit ? These guys aren't designed to operate in a secure orbit, they are designed to drop into the teeth of opposing defensive forces, kick the shit out them, then leave the cleaning up to the Imperial Guard.

This is the Imperium of Man. Novel tactics like teleporting bombs is heresy. Razz

No it isn't, its actually a fairly viable tactic, they do it quite often, they just send a team along with the bomb to make sure it goes off in the right place most of the time.

Teleportation isn't exactly a smooth ride either.

Terminators are not really known for their intel gathering skills. If you want people or equipment intact in the facility you could just use a biological or chemical weapon.

You can wibble about all the alternative methods for doing shit for a long time, ultimately you are still going to have situations in which these things are either impossible, don't work, or you simply can't tell whats going on well enough, and you have to put boots on the ground.


Its basically the same reason we still have infantry today, and SWAT teams, and HRT, and whatever, rather than just lobbing tear gas/nerve gas/grenades in through holes blasted in the building/target and so forth.

When it gets to the stage of using and needing tanks, why are you using the power armour? Are they really going to be that much more effective than normal troops to justify their massively incerased drop weight, size and cost?

You can argue that this possibly isn't the case, but since the Imperium has pretty much got an unthinkable amount of resources at its disposal, and is only really limited by how fast it can move said resources around, having teams of supersoldiers who can deploy really fast, operate independant of normal logistical networks and do everything plain better is actually really useful.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is the Imperium of Man. Novel tactics like teleporting bombs is heresy.

Actually Dewthwatch marines use their teleporters to do it when they tried diverting a Tyranid Hive fleet.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thats the thing about that irks me about the WH40K space marines. What is tougher: a really shitty tank, or a marine? Tank. What has more firepower: the shitty tank or the marine? Tank again. What is going to be present in more numbers on any world that there are space marines deployed to? Yep, any kind of shitty tank. (Also, whats cheaper and easier to build? Tank) So in open warfare, how the hell are marines going to be any use? We should only really see them used for things like boarding hulks, where a fully sealed suit is necessary, so might as well have plenty of protection tacked on. Alternatively, use in close quarters fighting for taking installations that are wanted intact.

Wait a second, are you trying to tell me that Space Marines don't use vehicles? What about the Land Raider, or the Rhino, or the Predator variants? What about the Thunderhawks? Power armor isnt a replacement for a tank in the Space Marines, its a piece of gear designed to boost the already-formidable capabilities of the Space MArines (make them tougher, give them more firepower, better sensory capability, etc.)

Why are those terminators better than a bomb in most situations?

I smell sci-fi wankery here.

[Ford Prefect]

I smell sci-fi wankery here.

I smell silliness. Terminators are obviously better because bombs can't punch people in the face and shout stuff like 'I find your quaint attempts at harming me highly amusing!'.

[SAMAS]

I smell sci-fi wankery here.

I smell silliness. Terminators are obviously better because bombs can't punch people in the face and shout stuff like 'I find your quaint attempts at harming me highly amusing!'.

That too.

[Commander 598]

I thought this was about "realistic" powered armor and not the no longer even actually human super soldiers of about 40,000 years in the future who can tear tanks apart with their bare hands.