IoM vs New Republic

[Connor MacLeod]

The Imperium, on the other hand, is HEAVILY militarzied (over-militarized) has a huge amount of territory (tens of millions to billions of worlds)

The last time I was into the 40k debate I had not seen any evidence for more than 1-10 million imperial worlds. Where did the tens of millions to billions of worlds come from?

Most of it is more recent material (dark Hersesy and other novels like Relentless) suggesting a billion plus worlds, but the William King space Wolf novles (the second one) mentioned a calc of around 30-40 million worlds at least, possibly more (And used the context of "millions")

If you want evidence for the scope of the ships, look to Dark hEresy and 5th edition (the latter for example, had millions upon millions of ships and billions of astropaths being fragged by the psychic backlash of some uber-being the Imperium executed... affected thousands of systems tops.)

Fact is, the Imperium is ALOT more tougher and powerful than initially assumed in prior "vs" on this board. Even my own prior conclusions need revision.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Imperium, on the other hand, is HEAVILY militarzied (over-militarized) has a huge amount of territory (tens of millions to billions of worlds)

The last time I was into the 40k debate I had not seen any evidence for more than 1-10 million imperial worlds. Where did the tens of millions to billions of worlds come from?

I don't see how it came from anywhere when the 40k rulebook fluff states there are 1,000,000 worlds. Yes there is a certain level of error in the count, but not three orders of magnitude.

Yeah, and battlefleet gothic (and a number of other sources: the space wolf novels, some of the Chapter Approved compilations, the Inquisition Sketchbook, BFG magazine, even as far back as the old Space Fleet stuff) also indicated millions of worlds.

I'd just point out that the same "million worlds only" argument can be applied to the Empire too, even though we have evidence for many more worlds (tens of millions, more likely billions.) so its a bit hypocritical to say "It works for SW but not for 40K"

[Sidewinder]

The Imperium of Man vs. the New Republic is like Bruce Lee vs. a Mike Tyson who's been lobotomized in his prime; the New Republic may have a stronger military, it may have better endurance (industrial capacity, human and material resources), but it has NO WAY to use these advantages in anything close to effectiveness.

When ONE star system threatens to succeed from the New Republic (Corellia in the 'Legacy of the Force'), it's a major crisis that paralyzes the Republican government (giving Jacen Solo, as Darth Caedus, an opportunity to seize control) and threatens to tear apart the entire Republic.

If ONE star system tried to succeed from the Imperium of Man, the yahoos responsible for this idea (along with EVERYONE associated with them) will be killed by Officio Assassinorum operatives, inquisitors, Imperial Guard units from neighboring systems, Space Marines, or an exterminatus, whichever the High Lords think is most appropriate; the crisis is nipped in the bud while the rest of the Imperium just goes about its business.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yeah, and battlefleet gothic (and a number of other sources: the space wolf novels, some of the Chapter Approved compilations, the Inquisition Sketchbook, BFG magazine, even as far back as the old Space Fleet stuff) also indicated millions of worlds.

I'd just point out that the same "million worlds only" argument can be applied to the Empire too, even though we have evidence for many more worlds (tens of millions, more likely billions.) so its a bit hypocritical to say "It works for SW but not for 40K"

I always thought it was around 51 million populated worlds based on the old 1 million member worlds, or states, and their dependancies for the old republic / empire. I've not seen any SW material hinting at billions of worlds beyond what is mentioned regarding worlds on the rim used purely for mining operations.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, if I put them edge to edge, I figured it would just be a rehash of all the logistical problems involved with campaigning in Tau territory. I just wanted a way for them to be able to strike at each other's territory with no great difficulty.

I don't think that's going to be a problem. For one thing, the Warp in the Empire isn't going to be nearly as turbulent, if at all (less connection and fewer psykers, remembeR?) As I recall, thats a prime reason they NEED the astronomican (to basically have something to home in on in the Warp, its too turbulent for computer or other navigational systems to accurately be trusted.)

Hell we know from myriad sourcees that the Astronomican is essential but not CRITICAL - they can use computer navigation, pre-mapped/planned routes (Dark Heresy) or short range astropathic/Navigator navigation (over a few tens of LY I think in the 40K galaxy) - and those should be more reliable. And most Imperial Navy warships in 40K are BUILT with long term operation in mind, so long-term travel wouldn't be an issue too (less so than for the NR at least.) Astartes might need to make other arrangements tho.

Frankly though I think the real problem with "logistics" against the Tau is that a.) the Imperium has bigger fish to fry and b.) the Tau are (yet) too small to really bother with unless they feel like it. Every attempt to attack the Tau has not been a concerted effort but rather a smaller-scale one amassed by someone iwth a PErsonal Agenda (and as a result tend to be alot more ill equipped than such expeditions are meant to be. Out of universe, this is an excuse to prevent the Imperium from curbstomping the Tau, of course..)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, and battlefleet gothic (and a number of other sources: the space wolf novels, some of the Chapter Approved compilations, the Inquisition Sketchbook, BFG magazine, even as far back as the old Space Fleet stuff) also indicated millions of worlds.

I'd just point out that the same "million worlds only" argument can be applied to the Empire too, even though we have evidence for many more worlds (tens of millions, more likely billions.) so its a bit hypocritical to say "It works for SW but not for 40K"

I always thought it was around 51 million populated worlds based on the old 1 million member worlds, or states, and their dependancies for the old republic / empire. I've not seen any SW material hinting at billions of worlds beyond what is mentioned regarding worlds on the rim used purely for mining operations.

Certain WEG sourcebooks like SOTE and the Core Rules had mention of the Empire holding billions of worlds. I think the DESB may have as well. So yeah, its alot larger.

the "1 millioin worlds plus 50 million colonies/protectorates" quote got changed when WEG revised the rules it was now "millions of worlds plus countless colonies/protectorateS" or something to that effect. I suppose you could say they at least double/tripled the original figure, but that would be kinda conjectural.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Imperium of Man vs. the New Republic is like Bruce Lee vs. a Mike Tyson who's been lobotomized in his prime; the New Republic may have a stronger military, it may have better endurance (industrial capacity, human and material resources), but it has NO WAY to use these advantages in anything close to effectiveness.

When ONE star system threatens to succeed from the New Republic (Corellia in the 'Legacy of the Force'), it's a major crisis that paralyzes the Republican government (giving Jacen Solo, as Darth Caedus, an opportunity to seize control) and threatens to tear apart the entire Republic.

If ONE star system tried to succeed from the Imperium of Man, the yahoos responsible for this idea (along with EVERYONE associated with them) will be killed by Officio Assassinorum operatives, inquisitors, Imperial Guard units from neighboring systems, Space Marines, or an exterminatus, whichever the High Lords think is most appropriate; the crisis is nipped in the bud while the rest of the Imperium just goes about its business.

Part of the problem with the efficiency of the NR depends heavily on who is in charge. Mon Mothma was rather effective, and Leia wasn't bad either (she at least managed to get things done.) Gavrisom was average.

In NJO onwards, you tend to get alot less effective leaders. Fey'la mainly.

I should note that technically the NR ended some time around Star By Star and was replaced with yet a NEW government. Even though the change is only cosmetic (and you've still got the ineffecutal rulers, though they had some promise in the Dark Nest novels.) Its still not the NR, and thus may be beyond the bounds of the debate. (Not that you really need to look beyond the NJO for the incompetence of the NR government under Fey'lya, though.)

Mind you, if the Imperium declares a Crusade and comes on in overwhelming fashion (which IMHO is likely. Stealthier approaches could be done - they have the ability -but they lack effective means to deploy them into SW until they map that galaxy. An invasion is not nearly so constrained.) that probably WOULD stir their asses. And a big reason the Vong were so lucky (and the NR so inept) was because they'd spent decades infiltrating the galaxy and messing around with things (in the Empire, in the Republic, in the NR, etc.) That sabotage won't be present here (though there still will be corrupton and idiocy.)

[Darksider]

Actually, the Vong have had more than decades to screw around with galactic politics.

In the first KOTOR game, Canderous tells a story about him encountering a Vong Scout ship.

[Falkenhayn]

Actually, the Vong have had more than decades to screw around with galactic politics.

In the first KOTOR game, Canderous tells a story about him encountering a Vong Scout ship.

Not unprecedented in IoM either. The Eisenhorn omnibus gives an example of an Inquisitor who went deep cover mole for ~73 years to destroy a recidivist cult. The operatives in question have access to the IoM's choicest juvenat treatments and augmentic programs, to the effect that 120-130 is a healthy middle-age for Inquisitors. Radical Inqusitors (Radical used in the 40k context describing the School of Thought opposite Purtians) also have no qualms about working with aliens.

Depending on their style or Ordo, Inquisitors are very often attended by staffs running from a handful to hundreds of individuals (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Dark Heresy) specializing in just as many skill sets as their are people. These are official operatives, who are often mated with established networks of local contacts who have an unofficial working relationship with the Inquisitor (Dark Heresy).

The Corporate/Criminal underworld in SW'verse is absurdly powerful. It helps the IoM immensely to have operatives with more experience moving through that part of galactic society than we can't easily fathom. This is one of those things where having a private interest that can handle DS level logistics may not be that good.

[Darth Hoth]

They never say it is one; it is a weird UFO that might be one. Which does not make sense, given that in NJO, the Vong were starved and running into the galaxy as quickly as they could, with worldships literally dying because of their tardiness. Why, if they had been there thousands of years earlier and could have attacked a super-weak polity like the prequel-era Republic, the only guys around to make the NR look militarised and efficient?

[Falkenhayn]

Edit: 3rd Paragraph "can't" should be "can".

[Darth Hoth]

Certain WEG sourcebooks like SOTE and the Core Rules had mention of the Empire holding billions of worlds. I think the DESB may have as well. So yeah, its alot larger.

Any quotes? Not that I doubt you, but it might be good to see the original wording.

And a big reason the Vong were so lucky (and the NR so inept) was because they'd spent decades infiltrating the galaxy and messing around with things (in the Empire, in the Republic, in the NR, etc.) That sabotage won't be present here (though there still will be corrupton and idiocy.)

Is the extent of their wrecking ever stated, or just implied? The only overt pre-invasion sabotage we see (well, that and ExGal) is Nom Anor stirring up trouble on Rhommamool (sp?), which the minimalists apparently thought made for a galactic crisis. Now, I might remember him thinking he had done similar things before, but the infiltration still appears to be fairly minimal, if one looks at the galactic scale. Which would make sense in its own way, as they would not wish to be discovered prematurely and probably took extreme cautionary steps, drastically limiting the placement of Praetorite agents.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, the Vong have had more than decades to screw around with galactic politics.

In the first KOTOR game, Canderous tells a story about him encountering a Vong Scout ship.

Not unprecedented in IoM either. The Eisenhorn omnibus gives an example of an Inquisitor who went deep cover mole for ~73 years to destroy a recidivist cult. The operatives in question have access to the IoM's choicest juvenat treatments and augmentic programs, to the effect that 120-130 is a healthy middle-age for Inquisitors. Radical Inqusitors (Radical used in the 40k context describing the School of Thought opposite Purtians) also have no qualms about working with aliens.

Depending on their style or Ordo, Inquisitors are very often attended by staffs running from a handful to hundreds of individuals (Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Dark Heresy) specializing in just as many skill sets as their are people. These are official operatives, who are often mated with established networks of local contacts who have an unofficial working relationship with the Inquisitor (Dark Heresy).

The Corporate/Criminal underworld in SW'verse is absurdly powerful. It helps the IoM immensely to have operatives with more experience moving through that part of galactic society than we can't easily fathom. This is one of those things where having a private interest that can handle DS level logistics may not be that good.

Perhaps, but a.) they have to find/locate them and infiltrate them, which won't be easy not so much because they're resistant to infiltration (if the Vong can do it, the Imperium can.) but because we're talking about two different universes. They have to get to that universe, they have to investigate it enough to locate said groups, figure out what they're purposes are and how extensive they are, so on and so forth. Again, this is something they can do, but it takes time.

Moreover, even allowing quick/easy infiltration, this will deny one of the key factors that hampered the NR in the NJO - active sabotage. The Imperium won't have decades with which to screw around with the SW galaxy to make conditions more suitable to conquest.

The NR will still be somwhat inept, corrupt, and still refrain from taking offensive iniative, though. And for the Imperium early on, a direct attack/Crusade is still going to be more efficient than waiting to infiltrate and sabotage. (If for no other reason the Imperium will fear the potential of contamination by such heretical beings, especially since they're large enough to be a potential threat.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Certain WEG sourcebooks like SOTE and the Core Rules had mention of the Empire holding billions of worlds. I think the DESB may have as well. So yeah, its alot larger.

Any quotes? Not that I doubt you, but it might be good to see the original wording.

SOTE sourcebook page 74

The civilization of the Galactic Empire spans billions of stars, from Coruscant - the heart of the Empire - to remote Outer Rim worlds like Tattooine and Gall.

Star wars RPG 2nd edition revised, page 6

Before you can adventure in the galaxy, you better know something about it. First off, its Big - the Empire rules billions of worlds.

[Darth Hoth]

Thanks, it is appreciated.

[TC Pilot]

Is the extent of their wrecking ever stated, or just implied? The only overt pre-invasion sabotage we see (well, that and ExGal) is Nom Anor stirring up trouble on Rhommamool (sp?), which the minimalists apparently thought made for a galactic crisis. Now, I might remember him thinking he had done similar things before, but the infiltration still appears to be fairly minimal, if one looks at the galactic scale. Which would make sense in its own way, as they would not wish to be discovered prematurely and probably took extreme cautionary steps, drastically limiting the placement of Praetorite agents.

Nom Anor makes an appearance in Crimson Empire as a manipulator of Xandel Carivus, one of the conspirators in the Interim Ruling Council and the last Emperor. This means he was present in the galaxy for at least 14 years, and the Yuuzhan Vong had already been at the galaxy's doorstep since even before the Clone Wars, when their initial assault on Zonoma Sekot was beaten off.

[Falkenhayn]

Perhaps, but a.) they have to find/locate them and infiltrate them, which won't be easy not so much because they're resistant to infiltration (if the Vong can do it, the Imperium can.) but because we're talking about two different universes. They have to get to that universe, they have to investigate it enough to locate said groups, figure out what they're purposes are and how extensive they are, so on and so forth. Again, this is something they can do, but it takes time.

Not as much time as we may think, though. Sienar, SoroSuub and KDY are publicly traded companies. They want to be found. The Rogue Trader is the ideal agent for these contacts; with nigh inviolable rights to large amounts of valuable commodities available on his personal approval alone. They can play Good Cop/Bad Cop with the Inquisition, to peal SWverse polities away from the NR. The Inquisition's experience in dealing with "bussinesses" and "governments" in every possible meaning of those words is only a plus.

That time may well be available. Though the universes are overlapping "ven diagram" style, which portions are overlapping aren't specified. Distance from major fleet bases and the well-traveled warp roots to them will slow mobilization, which is going to be massive in the case of a galaxy threatening Crusade. Its highly likely that the first institutions to react will be the Navy, the Inquisition, and Rogue Traders

Moreover, even allowing quick/easy infiltration, this will deny one of the key factors that hampered the NR in the NJO - active sabotage. The Imperium won't have decades with which to screw around with the SW galaxy to make conditions more suitable to conquest.

I understand the second sentence clearly enough, but I'm not quite sure on your meaning in the first. Could you clarify? This may be a "duh" thing, but I'm in the process of packing for a move and it's midnight where I live.

The NR will still be somwhat inept, corrupt, and still refrain from taking offensive iniative, though. And for the Imperium early on, a direct attack/Crusade is still going to be more efficient than waiting to infiltrate and sabotage. (If for no other reason the Imperium will fear the potential of contamination by such heretical beings, especially since they're large enough to be a potential threat.)

Surely, but where will it be launched from? How long will it take to mobilize? It all depends on the point of contact between the 'verses, which isn't specified. You've brought this up already and the thread author hasn't modified the conditions.

Agents like Inquisitors and Rogue traders operating with their institutional experience and knowledge of local resources are going to chase the Navy as fastest responders. At least until we know a distance between the area of operations and a major logistical hub (like, Hydraphur/Cadia sized at least for what we're talking about). The battlespace will be confused as all hell to say the least, and planning anything other than a general advance into it is going to take a while.

[HSRTG]

Why, exactly, would 1/3 of the population suddenly be attacked by daemons? what makes SW sapient beings any more susceptible to PotW than the countless trillions upon trillions of humans and other aliens in 40k that don't have daemons popping out of their heads daily?

If the galaxies are overlapping a large chunk of the Star Wars galaxy is going to be in the Eye of Terror. A bit more here and there in the few other free standing warp storms (Largest two being the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath and the Maelstrom). Maybe less than a third, but still a decent chunk are going to be in places where the laws of physics are laughed out of town.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As there a chance that the Adeptus Mechanicus might ramp up production just so to get their hands on new STCs in the NR? After all, the technology in the NR would offer them something new to chew on. The Ad Mech guys are also known for scouting for new technologies.

[Darth Hoth]

Nom Anor makes an appearance in Crimson Empire as a manipulator of Xandel Carivus, one of the conspirators in the Interim Ruling Council and the last Emperor. This means he was present in the galaxy for at least 14 years, and the Yuuzhan Vong had already been at the galaxy's doorstep since even before the Clone Wars, when their initial assault on Zonoma Sekot was beaten off.

I know he has been there for over a decade. My question was, has he actually been wrecking all that time, as opposed to merely spying? If they wanted their invasion to be secret, it might make sense to keep a low profile. The implied great magnitude of the Vong pre-invasion sabotage is never seen.

[Darth Hoth]

As there a chance that the Adeptus Mechanicus might ramp up production just so to get their hands on new STCs in the NR? After all, the technology in the NR would offer them something new to chew on. The Ad Mech guys are also known for scouting for new technologies.

Would they not think the technology alien and heretical if it did not originate with Man in the Age of Technology? Then again, they might decide to go forward with it anyway, once its superiority has been suitably demonstrated. Reverse engineering will take a lot of time, though, given the differing nature of the galaxies' tech/infrastructure bases.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As there a chance that the Adeptus Mechanicus might ramp up production just so to get their hands on new STCs in the NR? After all, the technology in the NR would offer them something new to chew on. The Ad Mech guys are also known for scouting for new technologies.

Would they not think the technology alien and heretical if it did not originate with Man in the Age of Technology? Then again, they might decide to go forward with it anyway, once its superiority has been suitably demonstrated. Reverse engineering will take a lot of time, though, given the differing nature of the galaxies' tech/infrastructure bases.

Well, I thought the Ad Mech aren't as puritanical with alien technology as with the Imperium at large.

[Darth Hoth]

Well, I thought the Ad Mech aren't as puritanical with alien technology as with the Imperium at large.

Well, I am hardly the greatest resident expert on 40k, so I might be wrong. But they always struck me as very conservative.

[NecronLord]

They're simultaneously conservative and not.

The best example offhand would be the Adranti, a human-centric but probably multi species empire in the Calixis sector, exterminated by the Imperium because they practiced forbidden genetic experimentation. While the Mechanicus don't generally proliferate Adranti technology, they go to great lengths to aquire and study it, and they do reproduce and use it. Even though they'll happily shoot anyone else who does.

[Cykeisme]

Well, I thought the Ad Mech aren't as puritanical with alien technology as with the Imperium at large.

Well, I am hardly the greatest resident expert on 40k, so I might be wrong. But they always struck me as very conservative.

When it comes to dealing with technology, the Adeptus Mechanicus is pratically synonymous with the IoM, since we're talking about the ability to develop, engineer and manufacture.

Addressing the point directly.. the AdMech is fractious, not unlike the Inquisition (though perhaps less so).
Generally the AdMech is puritanic, believing that Xeno technology is unholy and heretical, since the xenos do not honour their machine spirits, and those spirits do not come from the Omnissiah. This is obvious because the Omnissiah only serves Mankind.

There are, however, more radical Magos who are curious enough to pull apart xeno technology to see how it works. After all, if there is knowledge to be gained, and it can be used for the betterment of Mankind's goals, why not?