Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2008-08-08 06:22pm

Coyote wrote:Heehee.... Europe... fighting. A war. *snicker*

I said "war in Europe" not "Europe fighting or starting a war" as some kind of unified political-military entity. In case you didn't realize that was a response to Zeon's suggestion Russia should start a "decisive war" to break the NATO attempts to "destroy what remains of Russian people" and "end Russofobia". (Remnants of Russian people? Russians ending Russophobia by starting a war?)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-08-08 06:25pm

I'm sure Russia saying "fuck you" to NATO and then unleashing war machines will illustrate to the Western people that Russia is not a warmongering nation to fear, but a place of kittens and rainbows. Yes, those kittens and rainbows have ICBMs and sarin; details, details.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2008-08-08 06:53pm

Besides addition of East European countries to NATO is an extension of political unification and growth of Europe rather than some attack on Russia. Addition of these countries added nothing to NATO's ability to wage war. In fact before joining countries must adopt NATO standards which means dumping all current weaponry (usually old Soviet) and buying NATO ones in whatever limited quantities they can (like buying a dozen F-16s). As a result the military of each nation is actually downsized radically.
More importantly no Eastern European country can (or will be able to) afford any of the fancy toys like aircraft carriers, heavy bombers or any other power projection tools essential in even thinking about attacking Russia.

Unless Russia feels that having Afganistanesque token regiments from various Eastern European countries on it's territory after it's hypothetical defeat from US forces and neutralization of it's nuclear arsenal constitutes unacceptable growth of NATOs capabilities.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-08-08 08:18pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Sweet fuck all. And why should they even bother with anything? Who, frankly, wants to get into a land war with Russians when all sorts of other problems plague the nations of the world today?

Hey, I hear total war is a great way to make people forget about mortgage repayments and food inflation.

You're not being hysterical enough. Please cease posting and save bandwidth for other, more strident posters.

It kinda saddens me that people can start from 'not really Russia's fault' and then just stop at 'lol war is kool' and not follow that to any consequences of that. What's the worst that could... oh, yeah. Whoops.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled hysteria.

Pelranius · Post by **Pelranius** » 2008-08-08 08:44pm

On a lighter note, I awaited with bated breath for the neocon agitprop factories to produce the new edition of their Russophobic swill for popular consumption.

This might take their little pseudo minds off of Iran.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2008-08-08 08:58pm

Pelranius wrote:This might take their little pseudo minds off of Iran.

Speaking of Iran, the tinfoil hatters are claiming this is a distraction for Israel and/or the US bombing the shit out of Iran in the near future, if they haven't done so already.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2008-08-08 09:08pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:May we see the Russian Army finally put the line down on the pathetic attempts of NATO to encircle, constrict, and destroy what remains of Russia and the Russian people--a decisive war which will shatter once and for all the pathological hatred of the Russian people and Russia spread by such purveyors of hate as Zbigniew Brzezinski and their continuous efforts to destroy all things Russian.

Word to the wise-Americans start to hate other countries less after they lose wars (especially against the USA), not after they win them.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2008-08-08 09:39pm

Okay let me see if I've got this right:

South Ossetia is attempting to break away and form an independent state. Georgia refuses to acknowledge or allow this. Russia is involved because this mess is right on their border. When Georgia attacked recently, a bunch of Russians got killed, and now everyone's really angry.

Is that it? Or are there other factors involved?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-08-08 09:58pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Okay let me see if I've got this right:

South Ossetia is attempting to break away and form an independent state. Georgia refuses to acknowledge or allow this. Russia is involved because this mess is right on their border. When Georgia attacked recently, a bunch of Russians got killed, and now everyone's really angry.

Is that it? Or are there other factors involved?

I think South Ossetia actually wants unity with North Ossetia.

Post by **Steve** » 2008-08-08 10:03pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Okay let me see if I've got this right:

South Ossetia is attempting to break away and form an independent state. Georgia refuses to acknowledge or allow this. Russia is involved because this mess is right on their border. When Georgia attacked recently, a bunch of Russians got killed, and now everyone's really angry.

Is that it? Or are there other factors involved?

Bit more complicated.

Basically, IIRC, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are both breakaway regions of Georgia. Back in the early 90s South Ossetia declared itself independent and Georgia opposed it, but lacked the strength to do anything about it, especially since South Ossetia is filled with Russians and Russia was generally backing them. Russia and Georgia agreed to permit Russian peacekeepers into the area and to not rock the status quo, which left South Ossetia unrecognized.

Over the years, the Ossetians, even the non ethnic Russians, have nevertheless claimed Russian citizenship, speak Russian, use Russian currency, etc. And their seperatism has grown more and more active.

Now things have come to a head, the Georgians have lost their patience, and have quite frankly played into Russia's hands.

Karrick · Post by **Karrick** » 2008-08-08 10:52pm

I'd like to know just what the Georgians were thinking they were going to get away with. Did the thought that Russia would fight even occur to them? It can't possibly have, because there's no way a fight with Russia could end well for Georgia.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-08-08 11:13pm

Georgian aircraft goes down, Russian 2S3s and Grads rock out

Darth Mordius · Post by **Darth Mordius** » 2008-08-08 11:21pm

Remember, if an ethnic group wants to split from its country, Russia will fight to support its right to do so!

Except Chechnya.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2008-08-08 11:44pm

Darth Mordius wrote:Remember, if an ethnic group wants to split from its country, Russia will fight to support its right to do so!

Except Chechnya.

No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should. The Chechens were particularly disgusting bastards, not only did they kill Russians, the enslaved them. Russia did the world a fucking favour in crushing the slave-trading, women-abusing, pieces of shit. You can thank Western Russophobia for any sympathy that Chechnya's separatists have gotten, because they really don't deserve any.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-08-09 12:05am

I'm mystified as to just what the Georgians hope to achieve with this stupid attack. Their troops have received a smattering of "Western" training in recent years and apparently they think that's enough to take South Ossetia and Abkhazia - these fools are in the situation where they're attacking an enemy on it's home ground, where they have no support, and the enemy is supported by a great power, directly.

They're mad. The 58th Army has already deployed forces, and more are likely on the way - a VDV Division is just across the border and has been since July, conducting military exercises, for fuck's sake:-

Karrick · Post by **Karrick** » 2008-08-09 12:23am

Adrian Laguna wrote:No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should. The Chechens were particularly disgusting bastards, not only did they kill Russians, the enslaved them. Russia did the world a fucking favour in crushing the slave-trading, women-abusing, pieces of shit. You can thank Western Russophobia for any sympathy that Chechnya's separatists have gotten, because they really don't deserve any.

Right, the Russians never did anything even slightly reprehensible in Chechnya.

Darth Mordius · Post by **Darth Mordius** » 2008-08-09 12:30am

Adrian Laguna wrote:No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should.

So if Americans in Mexico take up arms against the government, you support the right of Mexico to bomb cities in the U.S.? Recall that South Ossetia is part of Georgia, the majority of Russians citizens in South Ossetia are ethnically Ossetian and the Russian government granted them Russian citizenship in order to help their case for secession.

Adrian Laguna wrote:The Chechens were particularly disgusting bastards, not only did they kill Russians, the enslaved them. Russia did the world a fucking favour in crushing the slave-trading, women-abusing, pieces of shit. You can thank Western Russophobia for any sympathy that Chechnya's separatists have gotten, because they really don't deserve any.

First, lets see some independent sources for the claim that Chechens are human rights abusers on par with the Saudis.

Second, are you claiming that human rights abuse justifies invasion and brutal repression? Would you support a Russian invasion and occupation of the U.S. complete with summary executions and indiscriminate and inappropriate bombing?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-08-09 12:35am

Darth Mordius wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should.
So if Americans in Mexico take up arms against the government, you support the right of Mexico to bomb cities in the U.S.? Recall that South Ossetia is part of Georgia, the majority of Russians citizens in South Ossetia are ethnically Ossetian and the Russian government granted them Russian citizenship in order to help their case for secession.

Wrong analogy.

If Mexican immigrants in America call for their part of the country to be put back in Mexico, and if the Mexican government had "peacekeepers" there, and then the Americans responds by bombing the ever-living hell out of the place - then, yes, Mexico should respond.

Darth Mordius · Post by **Darth Mordius** » 2008-08-09 12:47am

Shroom Man 777 wrote: Wrong analogy.

If Mexican immigrants in America call for their part of the country to be put back in Mexico, and if the Mexican government had "peacekeepers" there, and then the Americans responds by bombing the ever-living hell out of the place - then, yes, Mexico should respond.

I wasn't making a direct analogy to the situation at hand, I was expanding Adrian's principle of war to protect ones nationals.

hongi · Post by **hongi** » 2008-08-09 12:48am

Karrick wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should. The Chechens were particularly disgusting bastards, not only did they kill Russians, the enslaved them. Russia did the world a fucking favour in crushing the slave-trading, women-abusing, pieces of shit. You can thank Western Russophobia for any sympathy that Chechnya's separatists have gotten, because they really don't deserve any.
Right, the Russians never did anything even slightly reprehensible in Chechnya.

He never said that Russia was squeaky clean.

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2008-08-09 12:54am

Vympel wrote: They're mad. The 58th Army has already deployed forces, and more are likely on the way - a VDV Division is just across the border and has been since July, conducting military exercises, for fuck's sake:-

[img]snip[/img]

For the uninitiated, VDV is the cyrillic acronym for a Mechanized/Armored Division?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-08-09 12:58am

I think the VDV are Spetznaz.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2008-08-09 01:01am

Darth Mordius wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should.
So if Americans in Mexico take up arms against the government, you support the right of Mexico to bomb cities in the U.S.?

When has Russia bombed Georgian cities? Military bases and ports, yes because in a country that small, they are legitimate military targets, but otherwise, they have stayed away from targets in Georgia proper.

First, lets see some independent sources for the claim that Chechens are human rights abusers on par with the Saudis.

Chechnya: From Past to Future., for example

Second, are you claiming that human rights abuse justifies invasion and brutal repression? Would you support a Russian invasion and occupation of the U.S. complete with summary executions and indiscriminate and inappropriate bombing?[/quote]
If the US was perpetuating those acts of abuse were directed against Russian citizens, you mean?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **fgalkin** » 2008-08-09 01:02am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I think the VDV are Spetznaz.

VDV are Paratroopers- elite Russian units comparable to the US Marines in terms of reputation.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-08-09 01:06am

Falkenhayn wrote: For the uninitiated, VDV is the cyrillic acronym for a Mechanized/Armored Division?

It's not a cyryllic acronym (duh) and it stands for airborne troops. Russia's airborne troops are just mechanized as fuck compared to NATO.

On the whole mess, it's a classic example of two dicks fucking with each other because of national pride. Ossetia would've never felt as strong as it did if they didn't get Russian support, and Russia supported them because they were resentful that the USSR fell apart. They poked Georgians, who just couldn't bear the thought that their little country was splitting into pieces, and the Georgians reacted in a clasically dickish way. NATO involvement didn't help and never should've happened, of course, since it gave the idiots confidence they could takeo on Russia and win.

The big losers in the whole thing are, of course, the civilians.