Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

First, lets see some independent sources for the claim that Chechens are human rights abusers on par with the Saudis.

Chechnya: From Past to Future., for example

-fgalkin

I'm surprised it never even occurred to any one that the Chechens were hardly even remotely squeaky clean considering that Islamic Fundies were fighting right along side them, which was well reported.

[Karrick]

Right, the Russians never did anything even slightly reprehensible in Chechnya.

He never said that Russia was squeaky clean.

So he's saying that I can sympathize with one side for suffering various atrocities, but not the other side, despite their also suffering various atrocities. Instead, I can only sympathize with the second group because of a supposedly systemic and not entirely unreasonable fear of Russia. So the Chechens deserved whatever they got, I won't dispute that. But that doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for someone who just had their city reduced to a bombed out husk because their city was just reduced to a bombed out husk. Chechnya was an extraordinarily nasty situation all around, and saying someone can only sympathize with the Chechens because they're afraid of Russia is... kind of demeaning.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

And while people in this thread fap to their Russophobia, the hospital, university, and regional parliament in Tskhinvali have all been destroyed by artillery bombardment from the Georgian Army, along with numerous residential districts, in a heroic continuation of the Bush doctrine by the glorious warriors of the Georgian State.

[hongi]

So he's saying that I can sympathize with one side for suffering various atrocities, but not the other side, despite their also suffering various atrocities. Instead, I can only sympathize with the second group because of a supposedly systemic and not entirely unreasonable fear of Russia. So the Chechens deserved whatever they got, I won't dispute that. But that doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for someone who just had their city reduced to a bombed out husk because their city was just reduced to a bombed out husk. Chechnya was an extraordinarily nasty situation all around, and saying someone can only sympathize with the Chechens because they're afraid of Russia is... kind of demeaning.

I think you should re-read Adrian Laguna's post:

No, if Russian citizens are being killed, then Russia will fight to protect them, as any nation should. The Chechens were particularly disgusting bastards, not only did they kill Russians, the enslaved them. Russia did the world a fucking favour in crushing the slave-trading, women-abusing, pieces of shit. You can thank Western Russophobia for any sympathy that Chechnya's separatists have gotten, because they really don't deserve any.

I'm pretty sure he regrets the deaths of innocent Chechnyans.

[fgalkin]

Right, the Russians never did anything even slightly reprehensible in Chechnya.

He never said that Russia was squeaky clean.

So he's saying that I can sympathize with one side for suffering various atrocities, but not the other side, despite their also suffering various atrocities. Instead, I can only sympathize with the second group because of a supposedly systemic and not entirely unreasonable fear of Russia. So the Chechens deserved whatever they got, I won't dispute that. But that doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for someone who just had their city reduced to a bombed out husk because their city was just reduced to a bombed out husk. Chechnya was an extraordinarily nasty situation all around, and saying someone can only sympathize with the Chechens because they're afraid of Russia is... kind of demeaning.

Cause and effect. Many people are afraid of Russia, thus they support its enemies, be they Chechens, or Georgians, or whoever.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Mordius]

Rather than type up my lost post all over again, I will just say that on the Ossetia situation i essentially agree with PeZook.

Regarding Chechnya, I am certainly not claiming that the Chechens are squeaky clean or anything of that nature. They have repeatedly bombed civilians, kidnapped people etc. Human Rights Watch on Chechen Atrocities.

What I take issue with is Adrian's claim that somehow the Chechens were such horrible people that Russia was required to conquer and then oppress them for the good of the world. In case it escaped anyone's attention, the Chechen atrocities are in response to the continued Russian occupation.

And while people in this thread fap to their Russophobia, the hospital, university, and regional parliament in Tskhinvali have all been destroyed by artillery bombardment from the Georgian Army, along with numerous residential districts, in a heroic continuation of the Bush doctrine by the glorious warriors of the Georgian State.

Fuck off. Is it Russophobia to point out that invading another country is wrong? If it makes you feel better, I'll point out that your own country is a far greater exporter of evil. By comparison Russia looks positively saintly. Oh no! Mindless Anti-Americanism!.

Cause and effect. Many people are afraid of Russia, thus they support its enemies, be they Chechens, or Georgians, or whoever.

I though I should point out that I know Russia does get a lot of shit thrown at it by the West. Some of it unjustly, but the fact is Russia does a bunch of bad shit, as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch attest. The difference is that Russia's sins are more widely reported and known than America's or Canada's (Guess what! We hold Arabs without trial or criminal charge and torture them too!).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Fuck off. Is it Russophobia to point out that invading another country is wrong?

Fuck off. The Russians are not invading anyone--they are coming to the aide of the independent state of South Ossetia, most of whose population is of Russian citizenship, and which is being occupied by the support of the American Imperialists and their anti-Slav sentiments.

If it makes you feel better, I'll point out that your own country is a far greater exporter of evil. By comparison Russia looks positively saintly. Oh no! Mindless Anti-Americanism!.

The United States is indeed a vast exporter of evil, particularly against slavs. I won't dispute you there at all; I opposed the Bosnian intervention, the Kosovo war, etc, since the moment I could talk, and they were the main reasons I hated Clinton, just like I despite Chimpus for his and his administration's mind-numbing support of the Georgian butchers in this developing conflict.

[Karrick]

I'm pretty sure he regrets the deaths of innocent Chechnyans.

I stand corrected.

Cause and effect. Many people are afraid of Russia, thus they support its enemies, be they Chechens, or Georgians, or whoever.

This concept of Russophobia is pretty obnoxious. Russia isn't the nicest nation on the planet. Suddenly pointing that out makes me some sort of Bush crony? I've seen this "with us or against us" mentality somewhere before. I don't think the Russians were entirely justified in their actions in Chechnya, but I never claimed that Chechen separatists were either (they most certainly were not). I'm simply suggesting that, deserving or not, having your city shelled into oblivion around you would be extremely unpleasant and is not something I would wish on someone.

This time around (in South Ossetia), I think the Russians are justified in the actions they have taken and that Georgian bravado and stupidity are primarily at fault. I certainly don't think there's any justification possible for shelling an inhabited city indiscriminately.

[Darth Mordius]

Fuck off. The Russians are not invading anyone--they are coming to the aide of the independent state of South Ossetia, most of whose population is of Russian citizenship, and which is being occupied by the support of the American Imperialists and their anti-Slav sentiments.

Word it how you like. Russia is getting itself involved in the fighting which is going to cause far more people to die, all to grab a bit of land and dick over old enemies. Of course, the Georgians are doing the same thing.

The United States is indeed a vast exporter of evil, particularly against slavs. I won't dispute you there at all; I opposed the Bosnian intervention, the Kosovo war, etc, since the moment I could talk, and they were the main reasons I hated Clinton, just like I despite Chimpus for his and his administration's mind-numbing support of the Georgian butchers in this developing conflict.

I agree, although I don't think the U.S. is motivated by any particular dislike of Slavs; they oppose the Russians because the Russians are strong and thus a competitor.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Some latest reports, including Russian language sources:

1. "Approximately 06:00 UTC, unnamed source of the Russian military command, told Russian media that the units of 58th Army completely cleansed of the Tskhinvali from Georgian forces."

2. Russian 4th Air Army has reportedly bombed the Baku-Tblisi--Turkey oil pipeline and attacked infrastructure and shipping in Poti harbour; Georgian army bases throughout the country have been struck.

3. The main Georgian air-fields have been hit and it is possible and even probable that the entire Georgian Air Force has already been destroyed (it's quite small), mostly on the ground.

4. Abkhazia has launched a counter-offensive into Georgian-held territory in support of South Ossetia, supported by Russian aviation bombing targets in Georgian-occupied portions of Abkhazia (the Koldori Valley) to clear the path for their ground troops.

5. Numerous Georgian Army bases all around the country have been reportedly attacked by Russian aircraft, including one where 200 US service personnel were training Georgian troops, though none were harmed in the attacks.

6. The town of Gori (Gorti?) near the border with South Ossetia has been extremely heavily bombed by Russian aviation with Georgian Army supply dumps being destroyed and resupply convoys for their forces attacking Tshkinvali being hit. In at least one case of collateral damage local Georgians claimed to a Reuters correspondent that an apartment block had been destroyed but otherwise the damage was confined to military targets.

7. At least 1,600 people are reported dead in South Ossetia alone, plus Russian troop casualties, Georgian casualties from the fighting and from the bombings, and possible casualties along the Abkhaz--Georgian frontier. This means that in less than 48 hours of fighting it's possible that on the order of 2,000 people have already been killed, making this an exceptionally high-intensity conflict within recent history.


And, just to confirm that first one, The Russian Army formally claims the full liberation of South Ossetia from Georgian attack.

JAVA, Georgia (AFP) — The Russian army said Saturday it had taken the South Ossetian capital after sending in tanks and troops to fight off a Georgian offensive aimed at winning back the breakaway province.

As the conflict which has left hundreds dead escalated, Russian warplanes bombed and virtually destroyed a key Georgian port and hit another city.

The Russian army announced it had "liberated" the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali after more fierce fighting around the city, which Georgian and South Ossetian forces had both previously claimed to control.

"Tactical battalions have completely liberated Tskhinvali from Georgian military forces," General Vladimir Boldyrev, the head of Russia's ground forces, was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies after paratroopers were airlifted into the city.

Russia backs the separatist government and sent in troops on Friday in response to the pro-West Georgia's military campaign to reestablish control over the province which broke away in the early 1990s.

The South Ossetian government said more than 1,600 people have been killed in the fighting which has heightened international fears of a return to the wars of the 1990s in the Caucusus.

The United States and the European Union prepared a joint a delegation to seek a ceasefire but Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev said his country had launched a military operation "to force the Georgian side into peace".

Georgia said a Russian aerial bombardment had "completely devastated" the Black Sea port of Poti in attacks which the country's UN ambassador likened to "a full-scale military invasion".

Poti is a key port and staging post for moving oil and other energy from the Caspian Sea to the West.

Russian warplanes also bombed the Georgian city of Gori, killing civilians, Georgia's Public TV reported.

Georgian officials said Russian planes on Friday bombed near a military base in Vaziani, a military airport in Marneuli, and a railway junction and an airport in Senaki. There was no immediate reaction from Russian forces.

Russia has denied Georgian claims that it had shot down six Russian planes.

Russian tanks and troops rolled into the province on Friday in response to Georgia's offensive to regaining control over the province that broke away from Tbilisi in the early 1990s.

As the troop build-up and clashes intensified, a senior military official said Georgia planned to pull its entire 2,000-strong military contingent from Iraq within the next three days.

"We are actually in the stage of preparing our departure," Colonel Bondo Maisuradze, chief of Georgia's military operations in Iraq, told AFP.

The South Ossetian government reported a mounting toll from the fighting. Spokeswoman Irina Gagloyeva told Russia's Interfax news agency there were now 1,600 dead in Tskhinvali alone.

Georgia has only confirmed 30 dead amongst its forces while Russia says three more troops were killed Saturday taking its toll to 15.

The Russian leader held a new emergency meeting on the conflict at the Kremlin.

"Our peacekeepers and units subordinate to them are now carrying out an operation to force the Georgian side to peace," Medvedev was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

In the streets of Tskhinvali, home to an estimated 20,000 people, tanks were seen burning, and women and children ran for cover.

An AFP reporter in South Ossetia saw women, children and elderly people riding buses toward the Russian border, fleeing the fighting.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said hospitals in Tskhinvali were overflowing with casualties.

Georgian authorities denied reports that President Mikheil Saaksashvili had evacuated government buildings in Tbilisi and was preparing to introduce martial law.

On the diplomatic front, the United States -- a champion of Georgia's bid to join NATO -- called for an immediate ceasefire and Russian withdrawal.

"We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a statement.

The European Union and NATO also called for a halt to hostilities.

The UN Security Council was to meet again Saturday to agree on a call for an immediate ceasefire after talks failed Friday.

Television images showed Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and trucks rumbling towards South Ossetia -- plus Georgian ground forces hammering rebel positions with lorry-mounted rockets.

South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s. It has since been a constant source of friction between Georgia and Russia, which opposes Tbilisi's aspirations of joining NATO and has supported the separatists without recognising their independence.

South Ossetia has long sought unification with North Ossetia, which is inhabited by the same Ossetian ethnic group but ended up across the border in Russia after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.

In the pro-Russian South Ossetian stronghold of Java, hundreds of volunteers gathered to volunteer to fight the Georgians.

[Siege]

2. Russian 4th Air Army has reportedly bombed the Baku-Tblisi--Turkey oil pipeline and attacked infrastructure and shipping in Poti harbour; Georgian army bases throughout the country have been struck.

Huh, Vympel called it back on page 2...

Oh, and expect Russian aircraft to accidentally drop PGMs on Georgia's oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Apparently the 98th from Ivanov might have been involved in the operation, though regardless it seems that the VDV made a combat jump at dawn and seized Tskhinvali from the Georgian occupiers by coup de main while 58 Army's ground units encircled the city from the north.

[PeZook]

You know, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the thought processes of Georgia's leadership that led to this, and can't arrive at any other conclusion save "They're all idiots".

Seriously. Not even the existence of a massive conspiracy of elites bent on world domination explains this move.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I can only think of them expecting NATO support. Dumb, but less so than any other explanation.

I also recall Carter's former foreign secretary talking about this whole affair having more to do with the BTC pipeline.

[Edi]

It's a stupid move and just presents Russia with a reward for all the intentional trouble it has stirred in the region for the past 17 years. It has consistently supported the separatists, arming them, training them, giving them other military support, intelligence and other resources and enabled them to commit attacks on Georgians. So in effect they have waged 17 years of war by proxy against Georgia until they got an excuse for a full-scale invasion.

The more Russian soldiers die in this, the better. It's a foregone conclusion what happens to Georgians and South Ossetians, military and civilian alike.

[[R_H]]

I think the VDV are Spetznaz.

Some of the VDV are Spetznaz, but they're controlled by the GRU and sometimes under the command of the VDV (they usually wear VDV uniforms, but can wear others to blend in). In the North Caucasus Military District, there's a recently activated brigade (in the Krasnodar region) of Spetznaz GRU, the 10th Mountain ObrSpN.

[ray245]

I can only think of them expecting NATO support. Dumb, but less so than any other explanation.

I also recall Carter's former foreign secretary talking about this whole affair having more to do with the BTC pipeline.

Why the hell would NATO help them?

Sigh...can't we have a peaceful olympics?

[K. A. Pital]

Technically, Ossetia and Abkhazia fought a bloody civil war with Georgia, which our soldiers stopped by forcibly separating the ethnic conflic and creating de-facto three nations.

If you say that Russia is guilty of stopping the Georgian civil war, hereby partitioning the Georgian state in the 1990s, you should consider the Karabach war, which was simply a bloodbath, and think again if Russia is the instigator of the ethnic strife in the region, or a participant who tries to quell it. Especially given the past experience.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The more Russian soldiers die in this, the better. It's a foregone conclusion what happens to Georgians and South Ossetians, military and civilian alike.

You know, I've been pretty gung-ho for this from the opposite side, but at least I have the fucking ethical decency to want it to be minimal casualty. You're just a fucking worthless whore of a shitstain to actively desire the death of conscripted troops, whatever the fuck you think of their government.

[loomer]

The more Russian soldiers die in this, the better.

What the fuck is wrong with you? A russian soldier is still a person. You are literally hoping for the deaths of numerous innocent people who are there purely because of the political bullshit, some not even of their own will.

Russia has conscription. Let's say they fully deploy their army. You will be hoping for the deaths of people who had no desire whatsoever to be soldiers and serve in the armed forces, you sociopathic fuck.

[mr friendly guy]

The more Russian soldiers die in this, the better. It's a foregone conclusion what happens to Georgians and South Ossetians, military and civilian alike.

You know, I've been pretty gung-ho for this from the opposite side, but at least I have the fucking ethical decency to want it to be minimal casualty. You're just a fucking worthless whore of a shitstain to actively desire the death of conscripted troops, whatever the fuck you think of their government.

I could be wrong, but I read it as he was refering to how "more russian soldiers dying would be better" in the propaganda sense, ie Russia could milk use it to justify whatever to its citizens.

[[R_H]]

Did anyone see the press statement Bush just made in Beijing?

At one point he said something along the lines of "Georgia is a sovereign nation, and its territorial boundaries must be respected." What a fucking joke. Just like Iraq, eh Bush? Oh wait, America invaded it for shittier reasons.

[Broomstick]

Whilst I have no real hatred of Russia, I also notice that their government is quite arrogant at the best of times. I think the rather....uh, foaming at mouth description you just wrote is rather OTT.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has openly said before that he thinks the whole Russian people alive today need to be punished for the systematic crimes he claims happened due to their nature (rather than rulers or anything) over hundreds of years and all of Russian culture to be rebuilt along more western lines...

People need to get over bullshit notions of racial guilt because it's NOT helpful. Would the world have benefited if we were continuing to punish Japan and Germany for World War II?

Blaming it on their "nature" is just bald-faced racism.

[Broomstick]

Gotta love when people on the other side of Atlantic get all trigger happy. Yes that's what we need in Europe, another "decisive" war. War to end all wars!!

Heehee.... Europe... fighting. A war. *snicker*

What's the joke?

There isn't one.

Last time a significant part of Europe went to war, when the dust settled there were 50 million dead (give or take a few). I fail to see any humor in that. But then, the history they teach in schools is deplorably deficient. Yes, there are issues with supply of resources being cut off from Russia, but shortages didn't stop either the Nazis or the Japanese from riding roughshod over other countries.

What Georgia fails to consider is that they may not be important enough to the west for the west to ride to their rescue. And the Big Bully in the west, the US, is already stretched thin by combat in the Middle East and has no desire to piss off Russia. Indeed, it may well be in US interests to side with the Russians here for purely pragmatic reasons, like not antagonizing the Russians and not getting into yet another armed conflict.

[Broomstick]

You know, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the thought processes of Georgia's leadership that led to this, and can't arrive at any other conclusion save "They're all idiots".

The lesson here is that when you're small and weak don't poke the big, angry bear with a sharp stick.