SDNWorld Redux - Casting Call & Planning

[Lonestar]

Repeat my request, how much would a few modernised Iowa's cost me under the point system?

32pts each.

[Coyote]

MARINE EXPEDITIONARY UNIT:
50 POINTS TOTAL
(Can spend MORE points to increase their TRAINING or EQUIPMENT levels to "Professional" or "Elite")

ELITE EQUIPMENT allows for:
3 LCAC (Landing Craft Air Cushion) instead of usual "Normandy-style" landing ships with front ramps that drive up to beach. Anything less than "ELITE EQUIPMENT" purchase defaults to standard landing boats.

Some Limitations:
MEUs must have an Amphibious Assault Ship to operate from.
MEUs cannot be fielded with anything less than Gen-II vehicles.
MEUs must have AT MINIMUM "Conscript" level TRAINING and EQUIPMENT modifiers. You cannot use an MEU with "Screaming Horde" level training or gear.



MARINES:
Approximately 2,200 Marines total (including vehicles crews, mechanics, riflemen, etc).


VEHICLES:
4 Heavy Tanks (at least Gen-II)
7 Light Armored Vehicle/Gun system (Tracked or Wheeled)
15 Amphibious Assault Vehicle (Tracked or Wheeled)
6 155mm howitzer
8 M252 81mm mortar
8 BGM-71 Tube Launched, Optically Tracked, Wire Guided (TOW) missile weapon system
8 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile

SUPPORT GEAR:
2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit
1 LMT 3000 water purification unit
4 Tractor, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering
2 Rough Terrain Forklift
3 D7 bulldozer
1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck
4 Logistics Vehicle System
7 500 gallon water containers
63 HUMVEE-type utility vehicles
30 Medium trucks


AIR UNIT:
4 Attack helicopters
3 Utility helicopters
12 Medium lift assault helicopters
6 Heavy lift assault helicopter
6 V/STOL attack jets


MEUs are expensive because of the Aircraft.

[Mr Bean]

Repeat my request, how much would a few modernised Iowa's cost me under the point system?

32pts each.

So a shore bombarding thirty year old battleship is worth more than a full equipped brand new Nimitz Class Nuclear carrier?

Hell how much will a vintage(All original parts including 60 year old firecontrol) WWII Yamato cost me? 50 points?

Me-thinks your pricing guide needs a rethink.

[phongn]

Crap, I used the existing spreadsheet model for my Army and Marines, looks like I'll have to re-cost it. Also, I noticed it looks pretty much like it's based on the BCT; any pointers on how I might integrate it onto my more traditional division-based system?

[Coyote]

Crap, I used the existing spreadsheet model for my Army and Marines, looks like I'll have to re-cost it. Also, I noticed it looks pretty much like it's based on the BCT; any pointers on how I might integrate it onto my more traditional division-based system?

Just add 'em up: 3-5 Brigades makes a Division.

Now you can mix & match: 2 Infantry + 1 Armored Brigade makes for a Infantry Brigade with organic tank support.

I'll have to do the same with Aviation Brigades, I guess.

[Sea Skimmer]

Shady, my advice is more frigates. Even if you limit your fleet to the Black Sea (and leave me and Stas to guard the Bosphorous and beyond), your LHDs are kinda useless if you can't guard them adequately.

Otherwise, should be fine.

A Polnocny is an LSM to begin with, Landing Ship Medium, a smaller form of an LST, not an LHD. The things are only about 850 tons, a Ropucha LST is close to three times as big. Modest sized landing ships like that are useful even if you don’t intend to make amphibious landings or have a major navy, simply because they can transport heavy equipment and logistics supplies quickly and cheaply along the coast, or to otherwise inaccessible coastal islands.

As for the original point system, its ceased to have any meaning to me, and I’ll be fielding a military based on analysts of China-South Korea-Japans force structures and budgets scaled to a 5 trillion GDP. I suspect this is going to work out to be much bigger then what points would say you could have. We should have never worried about more then aircraft and warships anyway; army equipment is cheap relatively speaking, and much of it lasts almost forever, and the differences from one widget to the next are least pronounced in land warfare vs air and sea fighting. People should be able to afford to have just plain hoards of equipment.

For Armies people should be working out force structures… how many divisions do I have with how many regiments in each one active and reserve ect…, not trying to account for every last truck and towed artillery piece. I’m not necessarily in agreement with Coyotes point’s values, but its much closer to what we need then using points to directly buy weapons. After all, for an army the real cost is simply in constantly running and training the force, not buying its weapons. Even our principalities could reasonably have 6000 tanks if they’ve never scrapped anything newer then 1954 vintage.

[RogueIce]

Well, that got messy fast. I'm going to blame Coyote for the whole thing.

Anyway, in an attempt to bring things somewhat back on track...

Trucks/Humvees/whatever:

Yes it was generally assumed that these came with your army, and that you don't need to worry about points for them. When me and Beo were working it up we'd already agreed it'd be too much of a hassle to mess with those. Hence the reason they weren't included on the spreadsheet. Give us some credit here, you guys.

If you want to stick .50 cals on them you go right on ahead. They'll fall easily to even 3rg gen MBTs and AFVs anyway so it's no big deal.

Maritime Helicopters:

Just use the utility/cargo points for them as whatever their base airframe (SH-60 = utility, MH-53 = cargo, etc). The way the USN does it is (roughly) 12 helos to an HSL, with detachments for the various surface ships. That means a lousy 2 points gets you 5 HSLs, or 60 SH-60s or whatever to equip your ships. 6 points gets you 180 which should take care of most people for cruisers, destroyers, and frigates. You'll probably need more for carriers though.

The way I'd figure it (myself) is to see how many helos each ships needs and multiply by, say 2. Then just round to 30 or whatever. Of course not all of your ships get deployed at once so you can lowball it some too.

The whole points system is trying to strike a balance between realism and playability. Not everyone is like Sea Skimmer and can look at a GDP and your "example" countries and figure it out from there. But overcomplicating and working yourselves up and just ditching systems wholesale is overdoing it. You guys couldn't even wait for me or Beo to come in and try and answer some of your questions on the table we worked up before you all got in a panic, declared it hopeless and are now scrambling to find a total replacement? Yeesh.

For a few other questions I saw:

For Bean's Iowa idea I'd say make it like a CGN: less expensive than a regular CV but not be a whole lot. Gotta figure with a legacy ship like that it's costing you more to run it than a modern ship anyway.

On the Heavy vs Medium SP artillery thing, Medium is 155mm or thereabouts. Basically what most armies field as their "high end". Heavy is for stuff bigger than that: some of the "Big Guns" Germany had in WWII for example (203mm and such) and for those who like their railway artillery. Field incidently is around 105mm. This goes for the towed arty as well.

Coyote
Beowulf put up an example of a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (three MEUs) awhile back: I can repost it if you want. Since you're using three Wasps anyway that should fill it out nicely (though you may went a second MEB just so they get some downtime).

Also, all you have for 'phibs are the LHDs and that's not going to truck around a full MEU. You need some LSDs and LPDs as well (the USN currently uses one of each or something close to that: LHD, LSD, and LPD in an ESG).

Can we please have a little less of throwing up your hands and declaring everything is hopeless and give more than two or three of the same people a chance to respond in the future? That'd be nice.

[Coyote]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios, just present an idea to simplify things...

[RogueIce]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios, just present an idea to simplify things...

It's not the ideas so much as I'm blaming you for getting people all into the "OMG complicated!!" tizzy. Which isn't really your fault but you're an easy target.

Anyway your idea is a little too simple I think. I'd probably beat out the US Army with heavy units, legacy/old guard standard with elite equipment with those point totals.

[Raj Ahten]

As long as we are all going over OOB's and such, I'll just go ahead and repost mine for everyone to critique. Things I'm wondering about include the number of support aircraft like tankers I have and the number of helicopters I have. Some people seemed to be buying ridiculous numbers of the things. I want enough to transport my airborne Regimen if needed and generally support the rest of my force in a bush warfare situation with long distances involved. Any observations on the force would be welcome. I have a mix of extensive littoral zones, forest and plains in my nation, with a mountain range dividing the forests and the plains.

Army Order of Battle

1st. Brigade “Pride of Indhopal”
-1st Armored Regiment (A “Heavy” Regiment)
-22nd Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)
-1st Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)

2nd. Brigade
-5th Armored Regiment (A “Heavy” Regiment)
-31st Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)
-9th Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)

3rd. (Reserve) Brigade
-4th Armored Regiment (A “Heavy” Regiment)
-2nd Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)
-3rd Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)
-16th Infantry Regiment (Mechanized Infantry)

Air Defense Brigade
-Contains 48 heavy, 72 Medium, and 48 light SAM units.

Independent Regiments:
-2nd Airborne Regiment (2000 airborne assault troops and 16 Field Towed Artillery pieces)
-7th Infantry Regiment (2000 marines with 16 Field Towed Artillery pieces)
-1st Special Forces Regiment (Special Forces Group with 750 troopers)
-8th Artillery Regiment (Artillery Regiment)

Not on Official Org Charts:
-Special Reconnaissance Group (240 Elite Commando's)

Equipment:
17000 Infantry
2000 marines
2000 Airborne assault troops
750 mid-range special forces
240 High End Special Forces
570 Modern MBT’s
1620 3rd. gen IFV’s
208 Light SAMs
72 Medium SAMs
48 Heavy SAMs
208 Medium Self Propelled Artillery (M109 Paladin)
36 Field Towed Artillery
27 MRLS

Air Force Order of Battle

-4 5th gen. Fighters (F-22 Raptor)
-212 4th gen. Fighters (Saab Gripen)
-22 4th gen. Ground Attack
-64 3rd gen. Fighters (Mirage F1)
-10 tankers
-2 Heavy EWACS
-6 Light EWACS
-64 Trainers
-12 Strategic Lift Aircraft
-36 Tactical Lift Aircraft
-12 Light Maritime Patrol
-150 Utility Helicopters (Blackhawks and variants)
-60 Heavy Lift Helicopters (Chinook)
-36 Light Attack Helicopters (Gazelle)
-60 Attack Helicopters

Naval Order of Battle
-6 Attack Subs (Type 212 U-boat)
-6 Frigates (2 Sachsen class, 4 Halifax class)
-4 Destroyers (Arleigh Burke Class)
-1 Large LHD (unique design)

[Coyote]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios, just present an idea to simplify things...

It's not the ideas so much as I'm blaming you for getting people all into the "OMG complicated!!" tizzy. Which isn't really your fault but you're an easy target.

Anyway your idea is a little too simple I think. I'd probably beat out the US Army with heavy units, legacy/old guard standard with elite equipment with those point totals.

We can up 'em a bit. Add an extra point to certain things.

But bear in mind that most folks will economize on things like Conscript level training and equipment, with only a couple Elite/Guard brigades to use as spearhead forces.

I do admit I want to avoid turning this into a number-crunching game, which happened a few time sin the old threads-- all the stuff about payload boosts on missiles and rockets, thrust-per-square-inch ratios and all that other eyes-glazing-over brain-mushing stuff.

[Setzer]

Why don't we just have generic formations, and assign points costs to them? That way, you can field a tank division made of three tank regiments and one mechanized regiment, an attached artillery unit, SAMs, Helicopters, etc?

That way, people can create units of whatever strength they like, with appropriate modifiers for equipment and training?

EDIT: I'm thinking we should have the basic unit be battalions (for tanks, artillery, and infantry) squadrons for aircraft, and individual ships for navies.

[Lonestar]

So a shore bombarding thirty year old battleship is worth more than a full equipped brand new Nimitz Class Nuclear carrier?

Hell how much will a vintage(All original parts including 60 year old firecontrol) WWII Yamato cost me? 50 points?

Me-thinks your pricing guide needs a rethink.

I was just busting your balls.



But I figure at least 16pts, from a manpower perspective, and yeah, trying to maintain older stuff and coming up with parts for older bits of machinery that can't really be replaced would drive the costs up substantially.

[Mr Bean]

I was just busting your balls.

Bring on the Bismark!

But I figure at least 16pts, from a manpower perspective, and yeah, trying to maintain older stuff and coming up with parts for older bits of machinery that can't really be replaced would drive the costs up substantially.

16 points I can buy, I'm not planning on building a fleet of the things. But since I'm playing a semi-backwards super-power I need my prestige toys.

And a Reworked(Year down the line) Battleship with 16inch guns afront and enough VLS tubes to the rear to throw 350+ missiles into action could even be a nasty customer.

*Edit, That was the purposed rework right? Yank the back gun off the Iowa, add another two CWIS's and throw on six MK 41 blocks for a total of 366 possible missiles?

[Shroom Man 777]

Siege did tell me that I needed an Iowa-class cruiser called the Iron Shroom.

I will have it!

[Mr Bean]

Siege did tell me that I needed an Iowa-class cruiser called the Iron Shroom.

I will have it!

At the first sign of a Shroom anywhere but in your world leaders name I will declare total war on your country. I have it on good authority that Lonestar will join in as well least some embarrassing photos from September of 2004 be made public.

[Shroom Man 777]

Fuck you, Mongolia

My country is called Shroomania.

[Lonestar]

At the first sign of a Shroom anywhere but in your world leaders name I will declare total war on your country. I have it on good authority that Lonestar will join in as well least some embarrassing photos from September of 2004 be made public.

Alright, I'm damned confused and your PM just confused me even more..I seemed to have purged my photos from SDN: THE EARLY YEARS, well, years ago. Especially since during that time frame you mentioned I was doing workups getting ready for my deployment.

My head hurts! PM me and draw me a fucking picture!

[RogueIce]

Why don't we just have generic formations, and assign points costs to them? That way, you can field a tank division made of three tank regiments and one mechanized regiment, an attached artillery unit, SAMs, Helicopters, etc?

That way, people can create units of whatever strength they like, with appropriate modifiers for equipment and training?

EDIT: I'm thinking we should have the basic unit be battalions (for tanks, artillery, and infantry) squadrons for aircraft, and individual ships for navies.

Beowulf was nice enough to make up some example units (mostly based on regiments and he did some divisions as well) to give you some rough guidelines. He even included the total number of points for said units, so you can just add those up (that includes the helicopters and everything else he lists within each unit).

And it's even in the very first post of the "Building your countries" thread so there's no excuses for not seeing it.

But nice guy that I am, here it is again:

Said example units:

3 MEFs - marine expeditionary regiment
60 AAV
60 LAV
2700 marine infantry
30 tanks
24 Light ADA
2 BN arty
12 AH-1
45 UH-60
15 CH-53
24 AV-8B+(air)
19.5 pts

Heavy Regiment
1000 infantry
120 IFV
60 tank
16 Light ADA
1 BN medium SP arty
400 engineer
9.5 pt

Mech Infantry Regiment
2000 infantry
180 IFV
30 tank
16 Light ADA
1 BN medium SP arty
400 engineer
9.5 pt

Infantry Regiment
2000 infantry
1 BN field towed arty
2.25 pt

Artillery Regiment
3 BN med SP arty
1 BN MLRS
5 pt

Division Aviation Regiment
Attack Helicopter BN
2x Utility Helicopter BN
Heavy Lift Helicopter BN
7 pts

Armored Cav Regiment
120 tanks
120 IFV
500 infantry
1 BN med SP arty
11.5 pts

Airborne Division
7200 parachute troops (8 units)
4 BN field towed arty
4 BN utility helicopter
2 BN attack helicopter
2 BN heavy lift helicopter
23 pts

Armor Division
3000 infantry
360 IFV
180 tank
48 Light ADA
16 Medium ADA
6 BN medium SP arty
1 BN MLRS
Attack Helicopter BN
2x Utility Helicopter BN
Heavy Lift Helicopter BN
1200 engineer
42.5 pts

Infantry Division
6000 infantry
540 IFV
90 tank
48 Light ADA
16 Medium ADA
6 BN medium SP arty
1 BN MLRS
Attack Helicopter BN
2x Utility Helicopter BN
Heavy Lift Helicopter BN
1200 engineer
42.5 pts

As for the points, the groups they come in (60 MBTs, 120 IFVs, etc) are more-or-less a regiment (give or take...) so you can formulate as you want. And if you have spares, go for it: it gives you stuff for training, as well as items that sit around...waiting to be sold to those with the cash.

[MKSheppard]

Hum. So I got like 1,500 points to play with.

Let's see: 500 points to airforce...

3rd Generation Medium Bomber as proposed by phong - 0.5 pts per bomber - that gives me 1,000~ B-47 Stratojet clones.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Coyote, just a question: why did you could the two EA-18F Growlers as 2 points? Unless you are saying 1 flight of F/A-18E/F are worth 2 of those.

Also, why 2 points for 2 miserable LAMPs helis? 2 points would give 60 utility copters. Even if LAMPs helis are twice to three times the price of the army equivalents, they'd be worth 20 utility copters.

Not to mention, even factoring in pilot training and all, 1 LAMP = 1/2 an Arleigh Burke or a F-100 frigate is way out of proportion.

[Coyote]

Coyote, just a question: why did you could the two EA-18F Growlers as 2 points? Unless you are saying 1 flight of F/A-18E/F are worth 2 of those.

Also, why 2 points for 2 miserable LAMPs helis? 2 points would give 60 utility copters. Even if LAMPs helis are twice to three times the price of the army equivalents, they'd be worth 20 utility copters.

Not to mention, even factoring in pilot training and all, 1 LAMP = 1/2 an Arleigh Burke or a F-100 frigate is way out of proportion.

Attack helos were factored at 2 pts each, IIRC, and any ASW helo (such as the LAMPS on the back of a destroyer) were deidedt o be attack helos.

And there was no standard of the EF-18 Growlers, so I charged them as if they were AWACS.

Bear in mind, that was the price scale I didn't come up with; my preferences was to give each ship its compliment of embarked helos as part of the ship.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Coyote, just a question: why did you could the two EA-18F Growlers as 2 points? Unless you are saying 1 flight of F/A-18E/F are worth 2 of those.

Also, why 2 points for 2 miserable LAMPs helis? 2 points would give 60 utility copters. Even if LAMPs helis are twice to three times the price of the army equivalents, they'd be worth 20 utility copters.

Not to mention, even factoring in pilot training and all, 1 LAMP = 1/2 an Arleigh Burke or a F-100 frigate is way out of proportion.

Attack helos were factored at 2 pts each, IIRC, and any ASW helo (such as the LAMPS on the back of a destroyer) were deidedt o be attack helos.

And there was no standard of the EF-18 Growlers, so I charged them as if they were AWACS.

Bear in mind, that was the price scale I didn't come up with; my preferences was to give each ship its compliment of embarked helos as part of the ship.

Yeah but, 2 points for 24 of attack helicopters, unless you are talking about 2 points for a whole squadron.

[DarthShady]

So I was checking out Shep's thread(Data Dump Center) and I see countries like Syria(and others) have a lot more shit with a GDP of $71.74 billion. While Duchies are limited to a lot less with a GDP of $350 bill.

That sucks and I personally want a larger military. I am thinking of following Skimmer's example and doing it that way. I like the points system because it makes things easier but it gives me a lot less than if I do it Skimmer's way.

I mean look at Greece they are the closest by GDP.

Greece
Population: 11.2 million
Area: 131,000 km2
GDP: $342 billion
GDP (Per Capita) $30,000

Army: 110,000 men
1,700 MBTs
500 AIFVs (BMP)
1,600 APCs (M113s)
729 Towed Arty
400 SP Arty
500 ZSU-23-2s
1,000 Stingers
20 x AH-64As

Navy: 19,000 Men
8 SSKs
2 DDGs (Charles F Addams)
12 Frigates (MEKOs etc)
40 Patrol and Coastal Combatants
8 ASW Helos

Air Force: 30,200 Men
389 Combat Aircraft; (A-7s, F-16s, F-5s, Mirages)

[Coyote]

Yeah but, 2 points for 24 of attack helicopters, unless you are talking about 2 points for a whole squadron.

Ahh, sweet-- I'll redo my points.

That was one of the things that bugged me about the system-- sometimes you're spending points for one item, sometimes for a set block of items.