Obama: "It's like these guys take pride in being ignora

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

Ender wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Ubiquitous wrote:Why would we take into account anything but his latest stated policy? Tony Blair was once a socialist loon, but by the time he left number ten he was a conservative. Peoples opinions evolve and it seems like Obama has evolved [well, regressed] onto the anti-nuke bandwagon.
His website, with latest updated policy statements available in .pdf form, shows his advocacy for safe nuclear energy, and states explicity that nuclear cannot be ruled out of the energy equation.
The PDF he released over twitter the other day was a pack of weasel words I see tossed out every time someone wants to say "no nukes" without saying "no nukes".
That has been his position since starting his campaign. The paper on energy policy has been up on his website for more than a year and it has not been "reedited".

Furthermore, it's more difficult for Obama to navigate this issue because of the anti-nuclear bias of the general public, who he has to appeal to. It's all well and good for McCain to say he's going to build 45 new nuclear power stations by 2015 since it's going to sound good for the red-meat crowd he panders to while knowing it's not really going to come off on schedule (and that he's probably as committed to nuclear as Chimpus Caesar is —which is to say, not at all, since it doesn't help the oil industry). Obama is still having to address a broader crowd to win the election and a large percentage of that crowd are simply scared of the atom.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Adrian Laguna
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4736
Joined: 2005-05-18 01:31am

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Basically, the Greenpeace morons never vote Republican, so McCain can say he wants an atomic grid from coast to coast without any consequences. Obama, on the other hand, could lose certain retarded one issue voters if he trumps up nuclear power too much.
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

I was arguing with a McCain supporter at work about energy policy and how both McCain and Sean Hannity were full of shit when they say that the 'drill everywhere' policy would bring significant relief.

The lynchpin of my stance was that Bush's own Department of Energy's EIA (and the agency head is a Bush appointee) says otherwise and than price reductions from said policies would be 'not significant'.

His response was 'I don't believe them'. :shock:
He went on to say that those so-called experts weren't oilmen, and that oilmen had proved the government wrong before.
The example he cited was the speed with which the oil fires were put out in Kuwait and Iraq after Gulf War I.

After this, I just gave the fuck up.
I have another guy that believes the EIA's stats and analysis, but is totally unwilling to believe that Sean Hannity is fucking lying on the subject and actually told me 'Why would Hannity lie?'. :roll:
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
Adrian Laguna
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4736
Joined: 2005-05-18 01:31am

Post by Adrian Laguna »

So... McCain's an oil man now and the EIA doesn't employ them?
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

Adrian Laguna wrote:So... McCain's an oil man now and the EIA doesn't employ them?

The snark is with you, but you aren't a Jedi yet. :D
Seriously though, with people such as these two my armchair psychologist guess is that it takes balls to admit to yourself that you've been played for a fool and that most people don't have the fortitude to admit to such.

It's easier for them to wonder what mental illness propelled this ex conservative Republican into apostasy than it is to look at the facts behind why I changed my mind. :lol:
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
American Infidel
Youngling
Posts: 73
Joined: 2008-07-01 04:00am

Post by American Infidel »

Glocksman wrote:The lynchpin of my stance was that Bush's own Department of Energy's EIA (and the agency head is a Bush appointee) says otherwise and than price reductions from said policies would be 'not significant'.
That's interesting. Where did you get this information from?
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

American Infidel wrote:
Glocksman wrote:The lynchpin of my stance was that Bush's own Department of Energy's EIA (and the agency head is a Bush appointee) says otherwise and than price reductions from said policies would be 'not significant'.
That's interesting. Where did you get this information from?
McCain himself said as much, mere months ago. But if that's not good enough for you, here you go:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html
The projections in the OCS access case indicate that access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030. Leasing would begin no sooner than 2012, and production would not be expected to start before 2017.
I await your inevitable right-wing weaseling.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
CaptainZoidberg
Padawan Learner
Posts: 497
Joined: 2008-05-24 12:05pm
Location: Worcester Polytechnic
Contact:

Post by CaptainZoidberg »

Why hasn't Obama ever argued that because of the inevitable Peak Oil, it's better to try to preserve nearby oil resources for when we REALLY need them or for national emergencies?

Also, on the issue of Obama's nuclear stance, it looks like he's trying to pander to radiation-fearing citizens in Nevada, and not the greenpeace crowd (who are probably
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

I hope Obama's campaign starts making ads showing the relevant portion of the EIA report enlarged and circled in red, the way the Daily Show often does, and then point out that McCain is selling a fairy tale, if they haven't done so already. It's obvious that the media at large will not point out McCain's lies, and not everyone watches The Daily Show.

Given the mileage that McCain got from the "inflating tires" comment, I think it would be good to point out that as small as that effect is, it would still have more effect than allowing offshore drilling.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Pulp Hero
Jedi Master
Posts: 1085
Joined: 2006-04-21 11:13pm
Location: Planet P. Its a bug planet.

Post by Pulp Hero »

[OT rant]
Ugh, that fucking strawmen pisses me the fuck off. No, inflating your tires won't magically make every problem go away, but it is something easy and helpful that has an impact at the lowest level. Around here there were talk show hosts mocking Obama and declaring that people ought to do the opposite as some kind of protest and that Obama doesn't have the right to tell people what to do. What the fuck is wrong with people, they aren't willing to take even the simplest fucking steps to help out, expecting politicians to use magic to fix everything. I don't understand why we fought to keep the South in the Civil War, I really don't.
I can never love you because I'm just thirty squirrels in a mansuit."

"Ah, good ol' Popeye. Punching ghosts until they explode."[/b]-Internet Webguy

"It was cut because an Army Ordnance panel determined that a weapon that kills an enemy soldier 10 times before he hits the ground was a waste of resources, so they scaled it back to only kill him 3 times."-Anon, on the cancellation of the Army's multi-kill vehicle.
User avatar
Stargate Nerd
Padawan Learner
Posts: 491
Joined: 2007-11-25 09:54pm
Location: NJ

Post by Stargate Nerd »

Pulp Hero wrote:[OT rant]
Ugh, that fucking strawmen pisses me the fuck off. No, inflating your tires won't magically make every problem go away, but it is something easy and helpful that has an impact at the lowest level. Around here there were talk show hosts mocking Obama and declaring that people ought to do the opposite as some kind of protest and that Obama doesn't have the right to tell people what to do. What the fuck is wrong with people, they aren't willing to take even the simplest fucking steps to help out, expecting politicians to use magic to fix everything. I don't understand why we fought to keep the South in the Civil War, I really don't.
It's not too late. Let's move the blue folks in red states into blue states and vice versa. Then we can merge to form a new super power with Canada.
User avatar
Darksider
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2002-12-13 02:56pm
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.

Post by Darksider »

Stargate Nerd wrote: It's not too late. Let's move the blue folks in red states into blue states and vice versa. Then we can merge to form a new super power with Canada.
At this point, I really don't think the canadians would want even the blue northern states.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
Eulogy
Jedi Knight
Posts: 959
Joined: 2007-04-28 10:23pm

Post by Eulogy »

Stargate Nerd wrote:
Pulp Hero wrote:[OT rant]
Ugh, that fucking strawmen pisses me the fuck off. No, inflating your tires won't magically make every problem go away, but it is something easy and helpful that has an impact at the lowest level. Around here there were talk show hosts mocking Obama and declaring that people ought to do the opposite as some kind of protest and that Obama doesn't have the right to tell people what to do. What the fuck is wrong with people, they aren't willing to take even the simplest fucking steps to help out, expecting politicians to use magic to fix everything. I don't understand why we fought to keep the South in the Civil War, I really don't.
It's not too late. Let's move the blue folks in red states into blue states and vice versa. Then we can merge to form a new super power with Canada.
They wouldn't merge. They'd annihilate each other.
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
Eulogy
Jedi Knight
Posts: 959
Joined: 2007-04-28 10:23pm

Post by Eulogy »

DAMN IT! Forget what I just said. :oops:
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
American Infidel
Youngling
Posts: 73
Joined: 2008-07-01 04:00am

Post by American Infidel »

This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Ugh, I have to listen to my boss at work hock Gingrich's "Drill Here, Drill Now" agitprop to our customers on a daily basis. Its all I can do to not say that it'll never make a difference.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

American Infidel wrote:This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
Sigh:
Office of Integrated Analysis and Forecasting, Energy Information Administration (EIA) May 2008 report wrote:The opening of the ANWR 1002 Area to oil and natural gas development is projected to increase domestic crude oil production starting in 2018. In the mean ANWR oil resource case, additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR reaches 780,000 barrels per day in 2027 and then declines to 710,000 barrels per day in 2030. In the low and high ANWR oil resource cases, additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR peaks in 2028 at 510,000 and 1.45 million barrels per day, respectively. Between 2018 and 2030, cumulative additional oil production is 2.6 billion barrels for the mean oil resource case, while the low and high resource cases project a cumulative additional oil production of 1.9 and 4.3 billion barrels, respectively.

Crude oil imports are projected to decline by about one barrel for every barrel of ANWR oil production. Opening ANWR results in the lowest oil import dependency levels during the 2022 through 2026 time frame, when oil import dependency falls to the minimum values of 46 and 49 percent for the high and low oil resource cases, respectively. During that timeframe, the mean resource case and AEO2008 reference case project an average oil import dependency of 48 and 51 percent, respectively. Because ANWR oil production is declining after 2028, U.S. oil dependency rises to 51 percent in 2030 in the mean resource case, compared to 54 percent in the AEO2008 reference case. The high and low resource cases project a 2030 oil import dependency of 48 percent and 52 percent, respectively.

Additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR improves the U.S. balance of trade. Cumulative expenditures on foreign crude oil and liquid fuels between 2018 and 2030 are reduced by $202 billion dollars (2006 dollars) in the mean oil resource case and reduced by $135 and $327 billion dollars in the low and high oil resource cases, respectively.

Additional oil production resulting from the opening of ANWR would be only a small portion of total world oil production, and would likely be offset in part by somewhat lower production outside the United States. The opening of ANWR is projected to have its largest oil price reduction impacts as follows: a reduction in low-sulfur, light crude oil prices of $0.41 per barrel (2006 dollars) in 2026 for the low oil resource case, $0.75 per barrel in 2025 for the mean oil resource case, and $1.44 per barrel in 2027 for the high oil resource case, relative to the reference case.

ANWR Production Uncertainties

There is much uncertainty regarding the impact of opening ANWR on U.S. oil production and imports, due to several factors:

• The size of the underlying resource base. There is little direct knowledge regarding the petroleum geology of the ANWR region. The USGS oil resource estimates are based largely on the oil productivity of geologic formations that exist in the neighboring State lands and which continue into ANWR. Consequently, there is considerable uncertainty regarding both the size and quality of the oil resources that exist in ANWR. Thus, the potential ultimate oil recovery and potential yearly production are highly uncertain.

• Oil field sizes. The size of the oil fields found in ANWR is one factor that will determine the rate at which ANWR oil resources are developed and produced. If the reservoirs are larger than expected, then production would be greater in the 2018 through 2025 timeframe. Similarly, if the reservoirs are smaller than expected, then production would be less.

• The quality of the oil and the characteristics of the oil reservoirs. Oil field production rates are also determined by the quality of oil found, e.g., viscosity and paraffin content, and the field’s reservoir characteristics, i.e., its depth, permeability, faulting, and water saturation. This analysis assumes oil quality and reservoir characteristics similar to those associated with the Prudhoe Bay field. If, for example, the oil discovered in ANWR has a considerably higher viscosity than the Prudhoe Bay field oil, e.g., over 10,000 centipoise, then oil production rates would be lower than projected in this analysis.

• Environmental considerations. Environmental restrictions could affect access for exploration and development. Also, legal challenges to the BLM’s leasing program and to its approval of seismic data collection and of specific oil field projects could significantly delay ANWR oil development and production.

Although there is considerable uncertainty regarding future ANWR oil production, the current upper limit to ANWR oil production is the transportation capacity of TAPS. TAPS has maximum throughput capacity of 2.136 million barrels per day. 3 The high ANWR oil resource case comes closest to reaching this pipeline capacity, when total North Slope oil production peaks at 1.9 million barrels per day in 2026.
That report, available through the Centre For American Progress website (you click on the .pdf link labeled "increase domestic crude oil production starting in 2018") lays out a case showing that ANWR won't be the black gold strike it's cheerleaders say it will, that it's effect on prices will be negligible, and that it will take a decade at least to bring online —which means it will do dick for consumers in the long-term and less than dick for them in the short-term.

The plain and simple fact is that oil is a dying option for this nation's energy needs —a reality the GOP consistently refuses to deal with.

Really, who do you think you're dealing with around here?
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

American Infidel wrote:This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
Why do you act like the default assumption in science is that oil is present, as opposed to not present? Are you a geologist? Or just some clown who thinks GWB is a "tough leader" and thinks the Confederate flag is about culture.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

American Infidel wrote:This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
As I expected, when confronted with evidence that disproves McCain's bullshit claims as you requested, you simply move the goalposts. Typical. You are doing a fine job of proving all the stereotypes about right-wingers.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
American Infidel
Youngling
Posts: 73
Joined: 2008-07-01 04:00am

Post by American Infidel »

Darth Wong wrote:
American Infidel wrote:This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
As I expected, when confronted with evidence that disproves McCain's bullshit claims as you requested, you simply move the goalposts. Typical. You are doing a fine job of proving all the stereotypes about right-wingers.
Your posted report only dealt with the OCS. Pointing out that inadequacy is "moving the goalposts"? Whatever. At least Degan responded with something informative.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

American Infidel wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
American Infidel wrote:This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
As I expected, when confronted with evidence that disproves McCain's bullshit claims as you requested, you simply move the goalposts. Typical. You are doing a fine job of proving all the stereotypes about right-wingers.
Your posted report only dealt with the OCS. Pointing out that inadequacy is "moving the goalposts"? Whatever. At least Degan responded with something informative.
Refusing to admit that McCain is full of shit is the important thing here, and you look for every excuse you can in order to do that. You're still doing it, by focusing on how complete various stages of the proof of this fact have been, rather than admitting that yes, McCain is full of shit.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

American Infidel wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
American Infidel wrote:This report only deals with the outer continental shelf. If I were trying to discredit the drilling option, I would go with a report that also takes other sources into consideration over this one.
As I expected, when confronted with evidence that disproves McCain's bullshit claims as you requested, you simply move the goalposts. Typical. You are doing a fine job of proving all the stereotypes about right-wingers.
Your posted report only dealt with the OCS. Pointing out that inadequacy is "moving the goalposts"? Whatever. At least Degan responded with something informative.
Don't you be invoking my name in your defence, you little turd. I hit you in the face with ANWR to further demonstrate the overall point —that The Gimp is full of shit by bandwaggoning on the "we'll drill our way out of the energy crisis" party line. Mike or anybody else who's been involved in Peak Oil discussions you have zero awareness of might well have done so if I hadn't gotten to it first. The overall point remains the same: The Gimp is full of shit. Kindly do us the favour of acknowledging it.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
American Infidel
Youngling
Posts: 73
Joined: 2008-07-01 04:00am

Post by American Infidel »

Darth Wong wrote: Refusing to admit that McCain is full of shit is the important thing here, and you look for every excuse you can in order to do that. You're still doing it, by focusing on how complete various stages of the proof of this fact have been, rather than admitting that yes, McCain is full of shit.
So the completeness of the proof isn't the important thing here, but my not posting what you think I should is?
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

I would love to see anyone who embraces the 'Believe the last thing they stated' measuring stick to evaluate what exactly McCain will do as President, short of open up oil reserves that won't be producing anything for over a decade and a pathetically small amount at that. It is an election. Rhetoric is not to be relied on. Actions and words, or are people too dumb for that?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

American Infidel wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Refusing to admit that McCain is full of shit is the important thing here, and you look for every excuse you can in order to do that. You're still doing it, by focusing on how complete various stages of the proof of this fact have been, rather than admitting that yes, McCain is full of shit.
So the completeness of the proof isn't the important thing here, but my not posting what you think I should is?
In case you are too fucking stupid to recognize this, this thread is about the politicians. And I see you are still looking for excuses to not admit that McCain is full of shit. The fact is that I provided evidence that McCain was full of shit about off-shore drilling. Patrick went on to provide evidence that McCain was full of shit about ANWR too, but that hardly means that my evidence was insufficient to conclude that yes, McCain is full of shit.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Post Reply