Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Adrian Laguna]

Fuck, I read it again and realized there is no "the other" after "and". Nevermind what I said.

[Broomstick]

The wording was somewhat ambiguous - and another comma wouldn't have hurt, either.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So... by that reasoning the US should give back a substantial portion of Texas and Arizona to Mexico (probably California and New Mexico as well), and Quebec should be an independent nation.

Amusingly, when I move to Canada (it seems more likely these days than France, for sundry reasons mainly involving that I have to factor someone important in my life, not just me), it will be as a Francophone to Quebec, which means that I have toyed with the idea of running for political office with the Bloc. I'd find that a really awesome position to be in, actually.

And, oh yes, let's reinstate the Confederate States of America immediately.

Their treatment of African Americans made their aspirations unethical.

And Tibet really is Chinese because, you know, it doesn't matter that China encouraged large numbers of Chinese to move there - right now there are parts of Tibet majority Chinese so that "territorial entity" should just shut the fuck up and comply with their Chinese overlords.

I support the complete union of the Chinese State--Tibet has been a part of China for centuries, and will continue to be a part of China, so, you are quite right.

Now, to be honest, I haven't a pony in this race - for all I know in a perfect world South Ossetia should be Russian. Or maybe Georgian. Or, I don't know, a protectorate of Proxima Centauri. The fact is, there world is littered with ethnic enclaves of people who "should" be part of a different nation than the one they're in (Africa in particular is bad for this) and redrawing all the borders is impractical for pragmatic reasons.

I suspect that, as in most such conflicts, both sides have dirty hands.

Well, if you want to start launching rocket artillery at the homes of civilians, you should pay a goddamned price for it.

But, on a less logical note - Marina, will you stop sucking Russian cock quite so hard? We know you love authoritarian regimes, but give it a break.

But they're so big and strong! *giggles*

I would hardly call Russia an authoritarian regime right now--it would frankly be better off as one, since there is so much corruption right now in the current kleptocracy. Anyway, it's an issue of the Russian society as a whole, not just their leadership--pretty much Any Russian head of state here would do the same thing.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What business has Russia, catering to the wants and desires of citizens of Georgia?

All the business it pleases to have, in particular based on the fact that the borders of Georgia are by no means legitimate and are fully open to revision.

By this logic, Washington, D.C. had no right whatsoever to oppose the secession of the southern states of the Union in 1861.

Based on mere secession? certainly. Based on slaveholding, no, you stupid shit. The war was fought over slavery, not over secession. If the Ossetians were eating babies, I'd be cheering the Georgians. But here, it's the Georgians who are executing all adult Ossetians they find.

Also by this logic, Western intervention on behalf of non-Serbian ethnics in both Bosnia and Kosovo is perfectly justified. Let us all remember that these are actions you have spoken out against as evidence of Slavophobia – because huge “supermajorities,” as you put them, of Kosovar Albanians don’t count; only blessed Serbians.

No, you stupid shit, I stated those reasons are invalidated by the fact that the fucking Bosniaks worshiped the ideal of the SS Hanjar Division and other vile nazi-era crimes their fathers had committed, and wanted to impose Sharia law on all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Popular participation of the South Ossetian population is irrelevant. The Russian government’s issuing those passports and assuming responsibility for those individuals identical to those undertaken on behalf of its own citizens was a violation of the principle of Georgian sovereignty.

Georgia has no real right to its present sovereign borders, as those were established by fiat by the fundamentally illegitimate Soviet government.

How about Putin’s law?

No worse than America, where we now are going to be locking people up indefinitely AFTER they've served their sentences, shitcock.

And I'm just waiting to hear you try and play balance-the-scales in the Balkans as you calculate which ethnic group has committed the least atrocities, and is therefore, by some ridiculous philosophy only you can understand, eligible to hold sway over all others for their moral betterment or some such (which is really the only thing I can assume would justify their continued subjugation -- and that's really what it was, under Serbian government).

It's more about what they're doing RIGHT NOW. The Georgians lost their right to South Ossetia, you dumbshit, the moment they decided it was moral to use rocket artillery to slaughter civilians in their homes, fuckwad!

]

Hm… A polyglot nation… now where could I find another such example of peoples amalgamated largely by circumstance. Could it be… in Russia, perhaps?

A polyglot nation which has been unified for centuries and which has a coherent national identity shared by all but two or three disaffected fringe minorities on the outerlands, comprising a fraction of a percent of the population, and which was developed before the illegitimate communist regime came to power.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Please do NOT presume to speak for all "exile" families - you certainly don't for mine!

Fact is, while life was often reasonable for those in the upper classes (which, apparently, your family was) for the average peasant (which my family was) life sucked, sucked, sucked under the Tsars - which had a LOT to do with why the Revolution occurred!

Oh, my family is a bunch of fucking abusive bastards, for all I have a love-hate relationship with my heritage, I acknowledge it, so there's nothing to it but to admit you're right. And they weren't extremely upper class--rather, extremely minor nobility who had an equally minor estate along the southern reaches of the Volga. My grandfather was a Tsarist artillery officer, fought with Wrangel in the Crimean in the Civil War, as I noted, and then went into exile to Paris in 1920 from Sebastopol, where my father was born. It's a bit of a romantic thing for me.

Abiding love for the Russian Empire? Fuck that noise - when my grandparents fled for their lives to a country halfway around the world most of the "love" of the empire had already been burned from them, and when they realized how much better life was in the US, despite language barriers, discrimination, and being shit poor, they never looked back. They even stopped speaking Russian in their homes, they wanted no part of either Tsarist or Communist Russia. To hell with all of them!

Heh, my family never spoke Russian at home either--it was the language of peasants. They were fluent in French (the language of the upper classes) and German (the language at home) instead.

Of course, we see this reflected in your love of authoritarian government, Marina - you always fancy yourself on top, among the elite. It never crosses your mind that you would be far more likely to end up under the wheels of the state, being ground to dust for the benefit of those above you. Such is usually the lot of peasants and misfits in the authoritarian state.

As a matter of fact, I tend to see myself as a scurrying little minor functionary somewhere, hardly at the top or among the elite, but insulated. And I am intelligent enough to certainly have such a position--even Russia was not totally unmeritocratic during the Tsardom. I'm very beautifully excellent at addressing people with superlatives, and don't really find a shame in doing so. It's arrogant of you to assume I'd be at top--no, it's just that I find I'd be a better fit in such a society than in one which demands on-time performance and constant work effort like a modern capitalist society, and demands it cheerfully no less.

Well, bravo for you - as it happens my family was ethnically Russian and it did jack shit for us. While there are some things I do admire about Russia, both historically and culturally, and I usually get along quite well with Russians I meet, neither the Tsars nor the Communists are governments I would have wanted to live under

I got the impression that your family was Jewish, not at all Russian by the Russian view of things, which means it was horrifically repressed, confined to the pale of settlement, and regularly subjected to extremely violent pogroms by paramilitary Orthodox groups.

How about the fear that if they do they their remaining territory will be nibbled away through subversive tactics of various sorts?

As a general rule, sovereign nations do not willingly yield territory.

That's why there's a war being fought. And if they join NATO afterwards, they can stop the bleeding--we'd never let a NATO member lose territory.

What if Europe doesn't want Georgia? That leaves them in the shitter, doesn't it?

Everyone seems pathetically willing to defend the place despite its habit of shelling innocent civilians.

[starslayer]

I would hardly call Russia an authoritarian regime right now--it would frankly be better off as one, since there is so much corruption right now in the current kleptocracy.

WTF? Are you saying that authoritarian regimes don't suffer corruption or something, or that they are less prone to corruption than other governments?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I would hardly call Russia an authoritarian regime right now--it would frankly be better off as one, since there is so much corruption right now in the current kleptocracy.

WTF? Are you saying that authoritarian regimes don't suffer corruption or something, or that they are less prone to corruption than other governments?

I was actually thinking of Lukachenko becoming president of a union of Russia and Belarus, actually.

[Saxtonite]

The last war had Russia invade with 10:1 numerical superiority, planes and heavy armour. The casualty ratio was almost exactly 10:1 in Finland's favour.
It's in the "Stupid Wars" book actually .
(Stupid Wars: A Citizen's Guide to Botched Putsches, Failed Coups, Inane Invasions, and Ridiculous Revolutions: Ed Strosser, Michael Prince).

The Fins were to the Russians what the Russians were to the Germans when it came to Winter-warfare. On skis.

here's a nice demotivator on it. works for me

[[R_H]]

Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia'

Georgia says its forces have withdrawn from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, and that Russian troops are now in control of the regional capital.

An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".

Georgia says Russia has brought an additional 10,000 soldiers across its frontiers, readying for a raid.

Earlier, Russian jets bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

There was no independent confirmation of the attack, although the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, who was in Tbilisi, said he had heard a loud explosion about the same time.

Georgian troops have pulled back to positions at or south of those held on 6 August, when the current hostilities began, said Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.

He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.

Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.

Earlier, Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called for an immediate ceasefire to stop what he described as an "annihilation" of his country's democracy.

In the absence of independent verification, there are conflicting figures about the casualties suffered on both sides but the numbers appeared to rise sharply on Saturday.

Based on Russian and South Ossetian estimates, the death toll on the South Ossetian side was at least 1,500. According to Moscow, all but a few of the dead were civilians.

'Fatal blow'

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused Georgia of genocide against the South Ossetian people and defended Moscow's military action to intervene directly.

On Saturday, he flew to the Russian city of Vladikavkaz, close to the border with South Ossetia, where he met those who had fled the violence.

He said the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow", suggesting that it was unlikely that South Ossetia would re-integrate with the rest of Georgia after the conflict.

He said the conflict had created at least 34,000 refugees.

This figure wildly conflicts with that cited by the UN refugee agency, which it says is based on information supplied by both sides.

The UN estimates that about 2,400 people have fled South Ossetia to other parts of Georgia while between 4,000 and 5,000 have crossed the border into Russia.

Redrawing the map

Meanwhile, a joint delegation of the US, EU and the Organisation of Security and Co-operation in Europe is heading to Georgia in the hope of brokering a truce.

It comes as a third emergency session of the UN Security Council ended without an agreement on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.

But emissaries from the US and Europe who are Nato members may not be seen as honest brokers by the Kremlin when it comes to Georgia, BBC's diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says.

The danger now is that Russia will not only use this crisis to demonstrate its military power in the region, but argue it is time to redraw the map, she adds.

Moscow has said there can be no "consultations" with Georgia unless Georgian forces withdraw to the positions they held outside South Ossetia before Thursday.

Meanwhile Russian jets have bombed several towns, including the central Georgian city of Gori, where Georgian troops had been massing to support forces engaged in South Ossetia.

Georgian TV has also shown pictures of damage to the Black Sea port of Poti, the site of a major oil shipment facility, after a reported Russian air strike.

President Saakashvili told the BBC on Saturday that Moscow wanted to take control of energy routes to Europe and accused it of "war crimes" against civilians.

His parliament has approved a presidential decree declaring that the country is in a state of war for 15 days.

An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".

To protect who's civilians? Georgians? I doubt it's to protect those dirty rebel S.O.s, you know, the ones who's city was bombarded and only after that the civilians were given three hours to leave.

He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.

Yeah, the Russians are creating mass S.O casualties...oh wait, wait kind of bullshit is this? Yeah, they're the ones massacreing and maiming their citizens.

Earlier, Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called for an immediate ceasefire to stop what he described as an "annihilation" of his country's democracy.

What kind of a retard are is their president? Maybe he should stop trying to suck EU and American cock for a second. Have the Russian ground forces actually crossed into Georgia? Did they march into Tlibsi? They weren't the ones that annhililated the democracy, it was the politicians who gave this failed abortion emergency powers that did.

President Saakashvili told the BBC on Saturday that Moscow wanted to take control of energy routes to Europe and accused it of "war crimes" against civilians.

Again, what a fucking retard. And the Western media (cough, CNN) sucks up his shit like nothing else.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Haven't you legally defended the claim of Israel to the Occupied Territories, and this is like, uh, quoted on this very site? Does their actions against civilians not undermine their claim to territory?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Haven't you legally defended the claim of Israel to the Occupied Territories, and this is like, uh, quoted on this very site? Does their actions against civilians not undermine their claim to territory?

Don't I have the right to change my fucking beliefs over a period of six years? Or do you WANT me to always remain the libertarian pro-Israel, neo-con trending little hawk-bitch I was in 2002? Because I sure as hell regret voting for Bush these days, what with that horrifying ruling that Hamdan will be permanently held AFTER his legal sentence he has been handed down in a duly constituted court of law has expired. You know, I'd grown to hate the fucking incompetence of the Bush administration over the past two years to the point of loathing them, but I'd never been prepared to accept it was both unconstitutional and criminal until I heard that, which was ironically today.

And you feel the puerile need to bring back things I said six years ago, when I was twenty, that I now sorely regret. Oh well, whatever.

[hongi]

It's more about what they're doing RIGHT NOW. The Georgians lost their right to South Ossetia, you dumbshit, the moment they decided it was moral to use rocket artillery to slaughter civilians in their homes, fuckwad!

So what happens when both sides are roughly equal in craptacular morality? Who do you support?

[Darth Wong]

It's more about what they're doing RIGHT NOW. The Georgians lost their right to South Ossetia, you dumbshit, the moment they decided it was moral to use rocket artillery to slaughter civilians in their homes, fuckwad!

So what happens when both sides are roughly equal in craptacular morality? Who do you support?

Why do you have to pick a side in such a case?

[ray245]

Seriously, we are lucky to have the internet around...so we are not stuck with a one-sided viewpoint of the war...


Too bad certain dumbass still view the western media as unbiased and right in every infomation they provide. When I tell them that, they immediately start saying liberal=better in everything.

[Norseman]

Earlier in the day, Georgian troops scattered along the frontline seemed convinced that victory was within their grasp.

What the fuck made them think they could take on Russia and win? Oh, right, they thought they could attack South Ossetia with no consequences.

The only connection between Russia and South Ossetia is a long tunnel through the mountains. Destroy the tunnel and the Russians can't send in reinforcements. Basically Georgia gambled that they could get to the tunnel, block it, and thus present Russia with a Fait Accompli.

[Broomstick]

And Tibet really is Chinese because, you know, it doesn't matter that China encouraged large numbers of Chinese to move there - right now there are parts of Tibet majority Chinese so that "territorial entity" should just shut the fuck up and comply with their Chinese overlords.

I support the complete union of the Chinese State--Tibet has been a part of China for centuries, and will continue to be a part of China, so, you are quite right.

Tibet is a distinct ethnic and cultural entity, for all your wanking of empires.

Will you next argue that we should give Spain back to the Arabs because at one point it was part of a Muslim empire?

But, on a less logical note - Marina, will you stop sucking Russian cock quite so hard? We know you love authoritarian regimes, but give it a break.

But they're so big and strong! *giggles*

I would hardly call Russia an authoritarian regime right now--it would frankly be better off as one, since there is so much corruption right now in the current kleptocracy.

Right. Because there was no corruption under the Tsars....

By this logic, Washington, D.C. had no right whatsoever to oppose the secession of the southern states of the Union in 1861.

Based on mere secession? certainly. Based on slaveholding, no, you stupid shit. The war was fought over slavery, not over secession.

Marina, what the FUCK are you smoking? The American Civil War was a fight over states' rights and secession, of which slaveholding was a part.

You arrogant little bitch - who are YOU to determine the morality of entire nations? Not to mention that bit in the prior post where, oh, let's just give away Estonia and Latvia to Russia, oh, well because Russia is so fucking wonderful...

If the Ossetians were eating babies, I'd be cheering the Georgians. But here, it's the Georgians who are executing all adult Ossetians they find.

Bullshit, you little asshole. Produce evidence of this genocide or retract that statement.

Popular participation of the South Ossetian population is irrelevant. The Russian government’s issuing those passports and assuming responsibility for those individuals identical to those undertaken on behalf of its own citizens was a violation of the principle of Georgian sovereignty.

Georgia has no real right to its present sovereign borders, as those were established by fiat by the fundamentally illegitimate Soviet government.

By that argument, what right does Russia have to its current borders? Got news for you honey - whether you like it or not, the USSR was a recognized and "legitimate" government. You don't get to decide who is and isn't a "legitimate" nation based on what YOU like. That is, in fact, one of the most unsavory traits of an American, the arrogance of passing moral judgment on other nations and either building them up or destroying them based on your personal bias. In that, you and Dubya are twins and you'd fit right in with the Bush clan.

How about Putin’s law?

No worse than America, where we now are going to be locking people up indefinitely AFTER they've served their sentences, shitcock.

Feel free to leave the country any time you want, sister, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out. You have made it very clear you despise the government you live under, apparently oblivious to the fact that it is one of the very few systems where you can publicly make such statements without consequences, so I'm baffled as to why you stay here. Go find a suitable autocracy and live there.

Please do NOT presume to speak for all "exile" families - you certainly don't for mine!

Fact is, while life was often reasonable for those in the upper classes (which, apparently, your family was) for the average peasant (which my family was) life sucked, sucked, sucked under the Tsars - which had a LOT to do with why the Revolution occurred!

Oh, my family is a bunch of fucking abusive bastards, for all I have a love-hate relationship with my heritage, I acknowledge it, so there's nothing to it but to admit you're right.

Thank you - you really should reflect on the idea that, from what you have told us, your family IS a bunch of abusive bastards and you should re-examine the fantasy notions of life under a king (or Tsar) they have instilled in you.

And they weren't extremely upper class--rather, extremely minor nobility who had an equally minor estate along the southern reaches of the Volga.

I didn't say you were "high nobility" or "extremely upper class" - you were upper class, that is, above the VAST majority of the populace who were peasants that were treated like absolute shit most of the time. In other words, your family's experience was atypical.

It's a bit of a romantic thing for me.

Get over it. Your family myths are based only loosely on reality at best.

Abiding love for the Russian Empire? Fuck that noise - when my grandparents fled for their lives to a country halfway around the world most of the "love" of the empire had already been burned from them, and when they realized how much better life was in the US, despite language barriers, discrimination, and being shit poor, they never looked back. They even stopped speaking Russian in their homes, they wanted no part of either Tsarist or Communist Russia. To hell with all of them!

Heh, my family never spoke Russian at home either--it was the language of peasants.

Right, you fuckshit - MY FAMILY WERE PEASANTS. Hence, they spoke RUSSIAN. Are you having problems with reading comprehension?

My grandparents so despised the Tsarist Russia you fantasize about that they gave up using their native language.

They were fluent in French (the language of the upper classes) and German (the language at home) instead.

Yes, as I pointed out, your family were upper class and thus their experiences were atypical of the average Russian.

Of course, we see this reflected in your love of authoritarian government, Marina - you always fancy yourself on top, among the elite. It never crosses your mind that you would be far more likely to end up under the wheels of the state, being ground to dust for the benefit of those above you. Such is usually the lot of peasants and misfits in the authoritarian state.

As a matter of fact, I tend to see myself as a scurrying little minor functionary somewhere, hardly at the top or among the elite, but insulated.

No, I see you as a despised misfit. How much tolerance do you think authoritarian systems have for transsexuals? Authoritarians like everything to fit in nice, neat boundaries and your very existence violates boundaries. Tell me, what was the fate of homosexuals, bisexuals, crossdressers, and other gender benders in Tsarist Russia? Your intelligence will not save you from prejudice based upon your gender.

It's arrogant of you to assume I'd be at top--

What the fuck --!? I NEVER said you'd be at the top, indeed, I've been saying you would be on the bottom. Just another demonstration of how your fantasies depart reality when it comes your idealized love of authoritarian government.

Well, bravo for you - as it happens my family was ethnically Russian and it did jack shit for us. While there are some things I do admire about Russia, both historically and culturally, and I usually get along quite well with Russians I meet, neither the Tsars nor the Communists are governments I would have wanted to live under

I got the impression that your family was Jewish, not at all Russian by the Russian view of things, which means it was horrifically repressed, confined to the pale of settlement, and regularly subjected to extremely violent pogroms by paramilitary Orthodox groups.

Well THANK YOU bitch for telling my I'm not what I am. Yes, we were Russian peasants. I'm sorry if you find that incomprehensible. Of course, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Jews to intermarry with human beings, being a separate species of animal. And, of course, it was perfectly OK for the Russians to do horrible things to Jews who were those nasty, alien invaders because life was such a fucking paradise for Orthodox Russian peasants. Germans never intermarried with Russians, no one ever crossed religious lines, and there's no Mongol blood in my ancestry, just ignore my relatives with epicanthal eye folds.[/sarcasm] Of course, that fits into your fantasy of a pure Russia rather than the actual messy facts of history.

Marina - shut the fuck up. You are pissing me off and you're talking shit. Seriously, you have issues with my heritage being BOTH Jewish and Russian? Is it THAT totally incomprehensible to you? Has it occurred to you that there was a REASON we fled the damn country, like someone sufficiently violated law and custom as to come under threat of death?

And you seriously think there'd be a place for someone such as yourself in such a system of government and society? If they couldn't hammer you into a hole THEY chose they would break you.

How about the fear that if they do they their remaining territory will be nibbled away through subversive tactics of various sorts?

As a general rule, sovereign nations do not willingly yield territory.

That's why there's a war being fought. And if they join NATO afterwards, they can stop the bleeding--we'd never let a NATO member lose territory.

Again - why the FUCK do you think NATO would want Georgia?

What if Europe doesn't want Georgia? That leaves them in the shitter, doesn't it?

Everyone seems pathetically willing to defend the place despite its habit of shelling innocent civilians.

Who the FUCK is defending "shelling innocent civilians"? No one. And I, for one, have NOT been defending Georgia, I think they shot themselves in the foot on this one, it was supremely stupid. As many others have pointed out.

Marina, what the hell is wrong with you tonight?

[Broomstick]

Earlier in the day, Georgian troops scattered along the frontline seemed convinced that victory was within their grasp.

What the fuck made them think they could take on Russia and win? Oh, right, they thought they could attack South Ossetia with no consequences.

The only connection between Russia and South Ossetia is a long tunnel through the mountains. Destroy the tunnel and the Russians can't send in reinforcements. Basically Georgia gambled that they could get to the tunnel, block it, and thus present Russia with a Fait Accompli.

Well, they fucked up, didn't they?

[Darth Wong]

I support the complete union of the Chinese State--Tibet has been a part of China for centuries, and will continue to be a part of China, so, you are quite right.

Tibet is a distinct ethnic and cultural entity, for all your wanking of empires.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Do you think it's actually reasonable to turn back the clock, to a time when nationhood was synonymous with ethnicity? Think this over carefully; you are attempting to reverse one of the greatest advancements in human rights and human thought in all of history.

We live in an era when nationhood is considered an aspect of geography, not ethnicity. For you to argue that "distinct ethnicity and culture" is a justification for secessionism is to lend credence to the notion that this was a bad idea, and we should go back to the notion that nation = race.

If a region has been part of a country for centuries, that is a perfectly reasonable argument. If nothing else, it is squatter's rights: the same ones Americans invoke to explain why they don't go home to their respective countries of ethnic origin and leave the Natives in charge.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Tibet is a distinct ethnic and cultural entity, for all your wanking of empires.

It's not distinct, it's called the Sino-Tibetan language family, the Sino-Tibetan sociographic/cultural spectrum etc for a reason. Notice how it doesn't say Sino-Korean or Sino-Vietnamese, but Sino-Tibetan, and that these peoples share a common ancestry and form of speech, which has been backed up by the fact they've been part of the same nation for centuries.

Will you next argue that we should give Spain back to the Arabs because at one point it was part of a Muslim empire?

Why the hell does this have anything to do with Tibet, which is currently already a part of China?

:roll: Right. Because there was no corruption under the Tsars....

Oh, hell, it was nearly as bad, but at least the society worked. You're right, the Tsarist regime deserved to fall. I never once expressed support for it in this thread, however, just a romanticism toward Russia.

You arrogant little bitch - who are YOU to determine the morality of entire nations? Not to mention that bit in the prior post where, oh, let's just give away Estonia and Latvia to Russia, oh, well because Russia is so fucking wonderful...

Well, I'd practice realpolitik if I ran a country, because it would be my job to do so for the good of my citizens. The morality of nations can however be evaluated just like the morality of, say, God. If Mike can condemn God for firebombing Sodom and Gamorrah, despite his being God, I can condemn Georgia for filling civilian neighborhoods in Tskhanvali with rocket fire, despite Georgia being a nation-state.

Bullshit, you little asshole. Produce evidence of this genocide or retract that statement.

It was reported on Russia Today, and on several Russian-language sites, and is the official position of the Russian government. None of which will sway your mind, because they're Russian sources. However it's been repeatedly proved in this thread beyond a reasonable doubt that the Georgians did start the war with surprise rocket artillery attacks on civilians, and isn't that immoral enough for you?

By that argument, what right does Russia have to its current borders? Got news for you honey - whether you like it or not, the USSR was a recognized and "legitimate" government. You don't get to decide who is and isn't a "legitimate" nation based on what YOU like. That is, in fact, one of the most unsavory traits of an American, the arrogance of passing moral judgment on other nations and either building them up or destroying them based on your personal bias. In that, you and Dubya are twins and you'd fit right in with the Bush clan.

Oh holy fucking shit, you feel like you can make such comparisons when the Soviets KILLED TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE and RESETTLED TENS OF MILLIONS MORE BY FORCE? Get off it. The modern Russian borders are incorrect, anyway, Russia has full right to all the Russian-language areas on its borders that were part of its territory from the 1500s and 1600s straight into the 1990s until the USSR collapsed. Why should those Russians be massively oppressed by those states just because the Soviets incorporated them in their arbitrary boundaries? Because you say so?

Feel free to leave the country any time you want, sister, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out. You have made it very clear you despise the government you live under, apparently oblivious to the fact that it is one of the very few systems where you can publicly make such statements without consequences, so I'm baffled as to why you stay here. Go find a suitable autocracy and live there.

Working on it. Got someone to sponsor me for the PRC already, if I want to go there.

Thank you - you really should reflect on the idea that, from what you have told us, your family IS a bunch of abusive bastards and you should re-examine the fantasy notions of life under a king (or Tsar) they have instilled in you.

Which I don't hold to. I've said on numerous occasions on this board that SUCH A SYSTEM WILL NEVER AGAIN EXIST BECAUSE IT IS FOUNDED ON TRADITION AND THE TRADITIONS ARE DEAD.

That said, I will readily admit that even those beliefs of mine have changed toward a decisively more negative view toward history again, viz.: God is the Panopticon. Once Meredith (Eris) led me into thinking like that (the cunning minx really is probably the smartest person on the board), my whole grip on my prior worldview has been falling apart. But I'd still goddamned well defend Russia anyway, irrespective of the governmental details, because they're simply in the right here.

I didn't say you were "high nobility" or "extremely upper class" - you were upper class, that is, above the VAST majority of the populace who were peasants that were treated like absolute shit most of the time. In other words, your family's experience was atypical.

Conceded in part, though my grandfather ended up working in a woolen mill to support his family after ending up in exile, so we haven't lived a life of idle riches since about 1916 or so.

Right, you fuckshit - MY FAMILY WERE PEASANTS. Hence, they spoke RUSSIAN. Are you having problems with reading comprehension?

My grandparents so despised the Tsarist Russia you fantasize about that they gave up using their native language.

I don't really fantasize about it, I just have a few picturesque visions of a lost era.

No, I see you as a despised misfit. How much tolerance do you think authoritarian systems have for transsexuals? Authoritarians like everything to fit in nice, neat boundaries and your very existence violates boundaries. Tell me, what was the fate of homosexuals, bisexuals, crossdressers, and other gender benders in Tsarist Russia? Your intelligence will not save you from prejudice based upon your gender.

Well, actually, in the late 19th century the Russian government was more or less run by a clique of homosexual bureaucrats, and the nobleman who coordinated for the assassination of and himself assassinated Rasputin was a noted transvestite.

What the fuck --!? I NEVER said you'd be at the top, indeed, I've been saying you would be on the bottom. Just another demonstration of how your fantasies depart reality when it comes your idealized love of authoritarian government.

To assume that I assumed it.

Well THANK YOU bitch for telling my I'm not what I am. Yes, we were Russian peasants. I'm sorry if you find that incomprehensible. Of course, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Jews to intermarry with human beings, being a separate species of animal. And, of course, it was perfectly OK for the Russians to do horrible things to Jews who were those nasty, alien invaders because life was such a fucking paradise for Orthodox Russian peasants. Germans never intermarried with Russians, no one ever crossed religious lines, and there's no Mongol blood in my ancestry, just ignore my relatives with epicanthal eye folds.[/sarcasm] Of course, that fits into your fantasy of a pure Russia rather than the actual messy facts of history.

What the hell? I was providing a listing of Tsarist crimes to you in a ready admission of the regime's tyranny and evil, and you turn that around into my being a member of the Black Hundreds or something? Which one of us has gone off the deep-end tonight, exactly? So eager to see things in me that you won't see what I'm saying?

Marina - shut the fuck up. You are pissing me off and you're talking shit. Seriously, you have issues with my heritage being BOTH Jewish and Russian? Is it THAT totally incomprehensible to you? Has it occurred to you that there was a REASON we fled the damn country, like someone sufficiently violated law and custom as to come under threat of death?

I was providing a litany of how the government treated you which included their refusal to recognize you as Russians, as part of my description of the evils of the Tsarist regime. Which you refused to acknowledge I was doing, because you have this obsession with making me out to be a Tsarist paramilitary or something. Go piss on my grandfather's grave, the old fucking bastard, not on me.

And you seriously think there'd be a place for someone such as yourself in such a system of government and society? If they couldn't hammer you into a hole THEY chose they would break you.

at one time in my life I tried to convince myself that there was less hammering done in the past. I'm not that foolish anymore. No, there'd be no place for me, or at least the place that existed, even if it led to great power, would leave me fundamentally unhappy. Byzantium or the Ottoman Empire or China, and I could be a court eunuch, but no, there was nothing for me in Tsarist Russia and never would be. Of course, I never advocated the restoration of Tsarist Russia or said I wanted to live in it, either.

Again - why the FUCK do you think NATO would want Georgia?

Because the USA, which leads NATO, is actively campaigning for Georgian membership in NATO.

Marina, what the hell is wrong with you tonight?

I want to know since when in this thread, in what alternative universe, did I start singing Zhanna Bichevskaya songs and going around on a horse killing random Jews with a sword. Because that's sure as hell what you're making me out to be when I was the one readily pointing out the evils and crimes of the Tsarist regime which my idiot fucking family supported.

[Broomstick]

I support the complete union of the Chinese State--Tibet has been a part of China for centuries, and will continue to be a part of China, so, you are quite right.

Tibet is a distinct ethnic and cultural entity, for all your wanking of empires.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Do you think it's actually reasonable to turn back the clock, to a time when nationhood was synonymous with ethnicity?

Marina is trying to justify Russia annexing South Ossetia based on the population being ethnic Russians... and you're calling ME on the carpet?

Personally, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that Tibet was a theocratic shithole before the current Chinese invasion, but I digress...

As far as Tibet being "part" of China - in 600's AD it was an independent kingdom. Said kingdom's troops briefly occupied part of China in 763... maybe it's China that's part of Tibet? As early as 821 or 822 (record keeping being somewhat ambiguous at the time) a treaty was enacted between the two separate nations of China and Tibet. In the 18th Century Tibet was under Chinese control. By 1850 Tibet had supposedly expelled all foreigners and was once again a separate entity. In 1913 the Dalai Lama explicitly declared Tibet and independent nation. In 1950 the Chinese invaded and ran off the Dalai Lama and ushered in the current state of affairs.

In other words, Tibet, like many other nations, has at times been an independent nation and at times been a vassal of another nation. One could just as easily argue that Poland doesn't exist, or Finland, based on a similar history of on-again off-again sovereignty.

Tibet IS a distinct entity. The argument is whether or not there is a distinct NATION of Tibet. Marina, wanking for empires as usual, is making the argument that because Tibet has at least once been under the rule of China it is and always will be a part of China. Hence my comment that Spain is still part of a Muslim empire. Or, for that matter, Poland should be considered part of Russia (which is has been at times) although I think the Poles would have a very different opinion about the matter.

If a region has been part of a country for centuries, that is a perfectly reasonable argument. If nothing else, it is squatter's rights: the same ones Americans invoke to explain why they don't go home to their respective countries of ethnic origin and leave the Natives in charge.

But as recently as 1950 Tibet was functioning as an independent nation, and there is historical evidence of Tibet and China being separate nations. It would be one thing if Tibet, like the Republic of Texas, had voluntarily become part of a larger nation but that's not what happened. For that matter, although both Hawaii and Texas are currently part of the United States there is no denial on the part of anyone that they were once sovereign nations in their own right - dismissing Tibet as "always part of China" flies in the face of history regardless of its current status. Likewise, Scotland, England, Wales, and Cornwall are acknowledged to have historically been independent nations - again, even if they're part of Great Britain today no one is claiming that Scotland somehow doesn't exist or isn't a real entity because it's "always" been British. Or maybe we should give the Republic of Ireland back to England because they ruled it for, what, 800 years? But, funny, isn't it, that Ireland exists as a separate nation, isn't it?

No, modern nations are not delineated just on ethnicity (past nations have occasionally been multi-racial/multi-ethnic as well, usually large empires) but it is certainly one factor among many. If Tibet had historically been filled with Han Chinese that would be one thing, but that's not the facts. Likewise, just because South Ossetia is (it is claimed) 70% ethnic Russians is not enough on it's own to declare it a separate country it certainly is a factor to be weighed. Occupation for a period of time is a factor as well, but Ireland demonstrates that even more than half a millennium of occupation is not a final determining factor.

Historically, a "nation" was a piece of land ruled by a government capable of keeping other nations out. In other words, might making right. By that standard, if South Ossetia enlists the aid of an ally that enables them to expel the forces of Georgia they become a real nation (they just better hope that ally doesn't swallow them up). Is that the best standard? I don't think so, but it's closer to reality than almost anything else thrown out in this thread.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

They're not ethnic Russians, they're Ossetians who have Russian citizenship, and I've never said otherwise (though the issue of Russian minorities in the non-Russian states around Russia is another matter, due to the fact that they are harshly repressed). Do like lying THAT much?

[Edi]

The South Ossetian conflict turned to full scale war on Friday when Russian troops supported by tanks and bombers attacked the South Ossetian capital.

Wow. So why did the Russians attack a capital of a friendly unrecognized state? That's just wrong.

Georgian troops stormed Tskhinvali. That happened before any Russian troops did anything.

Yes. It even says that in the piece of the article I quoted. It states that the conflict erupted to open warfare on Friday when Russian troops entered the fray. It also says that the Georgian troops attacked the capital on the Thursday/Friday night ("early hours of Friday morning" as I translated). The order of things in that section is a little strange after translation from a completely different language because not quite all the nuance makes it through, but all the relevant shit is in there. Read ALL of it.

So yeah, the photo gave it away, it's biased rag.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Go fuck yourself with a cattleprod. Apparently you can't read and can't be bothered to listen to anything other than what you want to hear and you have in your infinite wisdom decided that even when the evidence is staring you right in the face that it's irrelevant. Just fuck off.

I'm so frigging lost. Did Georgia attack the capital of SO, or did Russia? The aggressor in this conflict seems to depend on who you ask.

Only if you ask propaganda rags in Finland.

What bridge did you crawl out from under, you fucking goat-molesting troll? Or did somebody bomb it until it collapsed on top of you? You go right fucking ahead and provide some evidence for the claim that HS is a propaganda rag or fuck off.

[Darth Wong]

Tibet is a distinct ethnic and cultural entity, for all your wanking of empires.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Do you think it's actually reasonable to turn back the clock, to a time when nationhood was synonymous with ethnicity?

Marina is trying to justify Russia annexing South Ossetia based on the population being ethnic Russians... and you're calling ME on the carpet?

Yes, because you seem to place excessive weight upon ethnicity as a determining factor.

Personally, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that Tibet was a theocratic shithole before the current Chinese invasion, but I digress...

As far as Tibet being "part" of China - in 600's AD it was an independent kingdom. Said kingdom's troops briefly occupied part of China in 763... maybe it's China that's part of Tibet? As early as 821 or 822 (record keeping being somewhat ambiguous at the time) a treaty was enacted between the two separate nations of China and Tibet. In the 18th Century Tibet was under Chinese control. By 1850 Tibet had supposedly expelled all foreigners and was once again a separate entity. In 1913 the Dalai Lama explicitly declared Tibet and independent nation. In 1950 the Chinese invaded and ran off the Dalai Lama and ushered in the current state of affairs.

OK, so that makes the situation at least as well-established as that of Israel. And I would make the point that during the period when China lost control of Tibet, the Europeans were raping China. If not for that particular circumstance, it's rather doubtful that China would have lost control.

In other words, Tibet, like many other nations, has at times been an independent nation and at times been a vassal of another nation. One could just as easily argue that Poland doesn't exist, or Finland, based on a similar history of on-again off-again sovereignty.

Yeah, well, an awful lot of stuff changed in the middle of the twentieth century for obvious reasons. That was a period of serious turmoil, but attempting to restore the prior situation is an absurd goal. Especially when the prior situation has no more intrinsic moral weight than the current situation.

Tibet IS a distinct entity. The argument is whether or not there is a distinct NATION of Tibet. Marina, wanking for empires as usual, is making the argument that because Tibet has at least once been under the rule of China it is and always will be a part of China.

That is not what she said. She said that Tibet had been part of China for a long time. That's not the same as saying "as long as it was ever part, at any time in history". You are loudly, aggressively employing strawman attacks, and then wondering why I'm calling you on the carpet?

[Duckie]

Since no one else is going to point this out:

Broomstick brought up the Republic of Texas in her attempt to prove why Tibet was not a part of China, which is ironic, because if you think about it, it's sort of the same situation in South Ossetia.

Texas/Ossetia wants to join Russia/USA, but Mexico/Georgia which owns them by law due to borders won't let them.

However, ironically, there is even more justification because Texas was fighting a revolution: it'd hadn't won the revolution 20 years ago.

Further, Texas was a result of US settlers moving into Mexican land and then seceding, which is not what Ossetia has done. Also, Texas was mainly a revolt because the culture of the Texans and Mexicans clashed, mainly over Slavery, which was illegal in Mexico. Ossetia has done nothing of the sort.

So which is it? Is Texas allowed to join the US in order to preserve its culture of human chattel bondage, or is Ossetia not allowed to join Russia because they wish to be a part of it for reasons less heinous?

If Texas is allowed to join the US but Ossetia can't join the Russian Federation, why are they different? Enlighten me.

[hongi]

Seriously, we are lucky to have the internet around...so we are not stuck with a one-sided viewpoint of the war...


Too bad certain dumbass still view the western media as unbiased and right in every infomation they provide. When I tell them that, they immediately start saying liberal=better in everything.

Honestly can you stop?