Mexican troops cross border, briefly detain US Agent

[Darth Ruinus]

Other portions of the Mexican army are also shooting at the drug cartels.

Around 25,000 troops have been mobilized in the Mexican Drug War. Also, seriously? Mexican recon groups into America? Simple misunderstandings causing a war between America and fucking Mexico? Mexico has its own damn wars with its drug cartels to start a war with America.

[Guardsman Bass]

I'm more concerned about the fact that they held up a border agent - wouldn't it be obvious that he's, well, an American border agent? Other than that, this isn't surprising - the border in these areas is not particularly clear unless you have GPS or the like, and I highly doubt most detachments of the Mexican Army along the border have them. Most likely, they just got lost chasing some smugglers.

[Darth Ruinus]

I'm more concerned about the fact that they held up a border agent - wouldn't it be obvious that he's, well, an American border agent?

Could some coyotes or something be disguising themselves as border agents? Maybe they didn't believe him at first until he was able to provide conformation?

[Superman]

Well, if this isn't a reason for Congress to declare war and invade Mexico, I don't know what is.

[Death from the Sea]

So why does Mexico get so outraged with the US over it's immigration and border policy if they have armed military units patrolling their side of the border?

[Guardsman Bass]

So why does Mexico get so outraged with the US over it's immigration and border policy if they have armed military units patrolling their side of the border?

Keep in mind that they probably only trust the military to actually capture and bring these guys in; the Mexican gangs are fucking dangerous, and the Mexican police tends to be as corrupt as fuck (hence why Calderon is using the military to patrol Ciudad Juarez in its current spat).

[Thanas]

The Mexican government is just not that crazy. They'd have to be completely out of their minds to intentionally conduct military recon with the intent of seizing U.S. territory.

Their predecessors in 1848 were crazy enough to refuse an American offer to end the war after the US Army secured the territory north of the Rio Grande, in exchange for the end of the war and the land we wanted we'd give Mexico money as reparations, but the refused even though their army was out of it's league. And the war ended with the stars and stripes fluttering over Mexico City.

Rgese present day incursions may be accidental, but these accidents shouldn't be happening and resolutions to them should be implemented ASAP, lest they be misconstrued.


Given that there are "minuteman" groups out there pissing to mark American territory, a shootout between the rednecks and 'lost' Mexican troops is only a matter of time.

Since the border watching rednecks tend to be unarmed though as more likely scenario would be 'lost' Mexican troops bumping into a US military patrol, that'd be fun.

It's 'accidents' like this that start wars

Hey look. It is the paranoid idiot again, masturbating furiously to the thought of american troops shooting mexicans.

Seriously, are you really such a caricature or do you really believe in such bullshit?

[Darth Ruinus]

From what my parents tell me (damn I need to read up on Mexican history) keep in mind that back then Mexico was stuck with dictator after dictator who didn't listen to what the population wanted. So no, its not like all of Mexico was refusing to end the war, they just couldn't do shit.

Now that I think about it, Mexico has had a few civil wars throughout most of its history right?

[Duckie]

Now that I think about it, Mexico has had a few civil wars throughout most of its history right?

Mexico's history basically is a giant strech of civil wars.

[Shogoki]

There were 2 major civil wars in Mexico and a few more localized conflicts, yes, but the foreign invasions didn't help, there were 2 french invasions, 2 spanish attempts at recolonization, the US war, of course, and even the british were anchored off shore at one point ready to storm in (the french beat them to it, though, complete with appointment of a puppet Emperor). It was a very sad state of affairs for the entirety of the 19th century. I would even say Mexico wasn't even really an independent country till the early 20th.

[Darth Wong]

The Mexican government is just not that crazy. They'd have to be completely out of their minds to intentionally conduct military recon with the intent of seizing U.S. territory.

Their predecessors in 1848 were crazy enough to refuse an American offer to end the war after the US Army secured the territory north of the Rio Grande, in exchange for the end of the war and the land we wanted we'd give Mexico money as reparations, but the refused even though their army was out of it's league. And the war ended with the stars and stripes fluttering over Mexico City.

...

Hey look. It is the paranoid idiot again, masturbating furiously to the thought of american troops shooting mexicans.

Seriously, are you really such a caricature or do you really believe in such bullshit?

He seems to think that the military balance of power between the US and Mexico in 1848 was similar to what it is today.

Also, it's a common attitude among Americans to declare that foreigners are simply "crazy" if you can find some evidence that any of them ever did anything stupid or irrational, and that this means they can and would do anything, no matter how idiotic. No sense of proportionality is required. That's why most Americans seem to think that if Iran got a nuclear weapon, the very first thing they would do is attempt to nuke Washington DC.

[Darth Ruinus]

, there were 2 french invasions,

The Pasty War is pretty ridiculous.

Man, Veracruz has been attacked by the French and help captive for one month by pirates. I miss it.

[FSTargetDrone]

To be fair, the only people who do get up in arms about returning the southwest to Mexico are white, middle class, college kids, and the occasional La Raza militant idiot.

(rhetorically) It's astonishing how little some (or most) of the people in the US know about Mexicans. Other than paranoia about illegals streaming over the border or consumption of poor facsimiles of Mexican food (Taco Bell), I bet most people don't understand that most Mexicans' interests in the US involve shopping, visiting family, touring or simply working in the US. And most of those people who enter the US illegally aren't here to do anything nefarious. They are here to work, mostly. Very few Mexicans have little desire to sweep across the Rio Grande and reclaim long-lost lands.

There were 2 major civil wars in Mexico and a few more localized conflicts, yes, but the foreign invasions didn't help, there were 2 french invasions, 2 spanish attempts at recolonization, the US war, of course, and even the british were anchored off shore at one point ready to storm in (the french beat them to it, though, complete with appointment of a puppet Emperor).

As an aside, I am distantly related to Francisco Madero who was a revolutionary and president of Mexico. He helped to overthrow a dictator and was then himself assassinated. Talk about internal conflict.

Oh, and let's not forget The Zimmermann Telegram!

In Short:

A note sent in 1917 from the German Foreign Minister to his ambassador in Mexico, containing details of a proposed alliance against America; it was intercepted and published, strengthening US public support for war against Germany as part of World War One.

The Background:

By 1917 the conflict we call The First World War had been raging for over two years, drawing in troops from Europe, Africa, Asia, North America and Australasia, although the main battles were in Europe. The main belligerents were, on one side, the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires (the 'Central Powers') and, on the other, the British, French and Russian Empires (the 'Entente' or 'Allies').

The Zimmermann Telegram:

Sent through a supposedly secure channel devoted to peace negotiations (a transatlantic cable belonging to Scandinavia) on January 19th 1917, the 'Zimmermann Telegram' – often called the Zimmermann Note - was a memo sent from the German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmermann to the German Ambassador to Mexico. It informed the ambassador that Germany would be resuming its policy of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare (USW) and, crucially, ordered him to propose an alliance.

If Mexico would join in a war against the US, they would be rewarded with financial support and re-conquered land in New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. The ambassador was also to ask the Mexican President to propose his own alliance to Japan, a member of the Allies.

[Guardsman Bass]

Now that I think about it, Mexico has had a few civil wars throughout most of its history right?

Mexico's history basically is a giant strech of civil wars.

Sort of - aside from the Zapatista Uprising in Chiapas in 1994 (which was mainly concentrated in the Chiapas state in the far south of Mexico and which didn't threaten the survival of the Mexican government and/or regime in power at the time), Mexican has been mostly united since the late 1920s (when they finally got the Cristero revolt under control). Before that, though, especially in the early- to mid- 19th Century . . .

Like I said, it has nothing to do with "re-taking the Southwest" or any nonsense like that - said troops are probably there as part of Mexican President Felipe Calderon's anti-crime offensive (he's got troops in Ciudad Juarez as well). I don't think he trusts the Mexican police, particularly the local police in these areas. I think we have some actual Mexican members here, or at least one - I wonder what their perspective is on this?

[loomer]

Thank god Charles Askins is dead, or it would definitely be a war.

Because he would have shot them all, dragged them back to base, and boasted about doing it in a live teleconference.

With the Mexican president.

While masturbating onto his 1911.

[Shogoki]

Sort of - aside from the Zapatista Uprising in Chiapas in 1994

That wasn't even a real conflict, it was a son from a well off family that was a Che Guevara cocksucker with philosophy degree sweet talking some natives into "raising in arms" with wooden rifle shaped sticks. After the army moved in, and a few "encounters" everyone realized this, and it was basically over, with likely no more than a few hundred casualties directly caused by combat, tension remained in the area for a few years, but the government basically let them be since fighting them just meant massacre.

Eventually they even let a representative speak in front of the congress and basically said they wanted money and power, got laughed at, and the whole movement lapsed into irrelevancy.

The drug cartels are a bigger problem than they ever were.

[Darth Ruinus]

I think we have some actual Mexican members here, or at least one - I wonder what their perspective is on this?

Well, I'm Mexican-American. So, I'm 50% there.

[Steve]

Their predecessors in 1848 were crazy enough to refuse an American offer to end the war after the US Army secured the territory north of the Rio Grande, in exchange for the end of the war and the land we wanted we'd give Mexico money as reparations, but the refused even though their army was out of it's league. And the war ended with the stars and stripes fluttering over Mexico City.

And just where did you get this idea of what happened?

The truth is that even during the Mexican-American War Mexico was still in a state of political chaos with the government's control very tenuous to the point that no Mexican authority felt stable enough to make territorial concessions to the US government, which BTW intentionally instigated the war (Polk's "American blood has been shed on American soil" polemic to Congress when he was referring to the skirmishing in the disputed region between the Nueces, the northern border of Tamaulipas under Mexican maps, and the Rio Grande, which the Republic of Texas had claimed as its southern border).

The US actually gave slight encouragement to the deposed Santa Anna to return and reclaim power (which he did to some degree) in order for peace to be made... and Anna of course turned around and didn't dare give the US the concessions it desired because to do so would weaken his position politically as well.

It wasn't some case of crazy Mexicans refusing to accept defeat, it was simply a lack of fortitude among their leaders because they knew whoever made such an agreement was putting his political career and perhaps his life on the line.

Furthermore, the balance of power wasn't quite so distorted. The Mexican army was experienced due to the fight with Texas and other rebellions and disturbances and it usually outnumbered American forces, which won usually due to luck, clever maneuvering, or because the US Army fielded superior artillery. Buena Vista was quite close in outcome and Scott's expedition from Vera Cruz was on a thin string with his communications under constant threat (due in part to the Mexican regulars' tendency to violate parole) due to the fact that his army was quite small compared to the country they were being asked to march through, maintain lines of communication and supply through, and to fight in.

It took the capture of Mexico City to convince the Mexican authorities that the war had to be ended. And so they negotiated Guadalupe-Hidalgo with Nicholas Trist, Polk's personal emissary.... who in doing so ignored Polk's recall order, as Polk had turned against Trist since sending him. Trist, in fact, would go uncompensated for his part in negotiating the treaty and ending the war until 1870.

Mexico's situation in late 1847? The US held Matamoros and other sections of northern Mexico, Vera Cruz and Mexico City, key points in California as well as the trading town of Santa Fe, and though it was not known on either side during the talks, US troops had also successfully occupied the major coastal towns of Baja California. The Yucatan was racked by a native revolt that would cause the local mestizo and white population to appeal to the United States for annexation. There was rumbling in Chiapas that might have seen parts of that Mexican state end up being absorbed by Guatemala.

There's no telling how history might have gone if Nicholas Trist had obeyed his recall order, or if the Mexican authorities had lost their nerve and refused to give into American terms, or if the Senate had not ratified the unpopular treaty (the anti-war faction opposed the idea of gaining that much territory, the pro-war side thought the Mexicans weren't giving enough). The US might be bigger today, Mexico might have splintered, hell, the US Civil War might have begin earlier or had a far different temper if Mexican-populated areas had been directly absorbed into the Union as territories and eventually States.

Jack Bauer, a historian who wrote a book on the war that I have read, was of the opinion that the war may have ended because John Q. Adams died that February, as his death forced a recess in Congress to prepare for his memorial as an ex-President and may have given time for tempers to cool and permit the Senate to ratify the treaty despite its unpopularity. (It is somewhat ironic to consider this if you consider Adams' had devoted his life to service in the Republic and had indeed spent most of his years in one position or another of public office. The idea of a man who dedicated himself to "duty" served a purpose even with his death is pretty cool.)


*gets off soapbox*

[Broomstick]

Um, a small squad of Mexican military get lost in terrain that can only be described as "rough" and "wild", bump into a US border guard, there are a few tense minutes as they two parties talk, the Mexicans basically say "Oops, sorry, we're in the wrong place" and leave 4 minutes later. Is that essentially what happened? That's no invasion.

The US/Mexican border isn't a big stripe painted on the ground, you know. I can easily see people accidentally misplacing it. Hell, it happens on the US/Canadian border, too. 42 such incidents does sound high, but it is a long border. How many such mix-ups were there last year and the year before?

The GPS thing is a good idea, but GPS isn't infallible. You'll still have occasional incidents of this sort even with GPS, though I'd expect they'd be fewer.

[Phantasee]

The US/Mexican border isn't a big stripe painted on the ground, you know. I can easily see people accidentally misplacing it.

Don't be ridiculous! Everyone knows there is a giant black stripe going across the desert! How else would the illegals know they had reached the US?

I wonder about those Minutemen. Do they ever "accidentally" cross the border, as well? And I mean accidentally, on purpose, and accidentally, for real.

[ExarKun]

Link

Mexican troops cross U.S. border, hold agent

Wed Aug 6, 2008 6:58pm EDT


(Reuters) - Mexican soldiers briefly held a U.S. Border Patrol agent at gunpoint in a remote stretch of the Arizona desert after they mistakenly strayed north across the border, authorities said on Wednesday.

Tucson sector Border Patrol spokesman Mike Scioli said four Mexican soldiers wearing desert camouflage and carrying weapons confronted the agent early on Sunday morning as he patrolled a border road in the Tohono O'Odham nation southwest of Tucson.

Scioli said the agent repeatedly identified himself in English and Spanish. After four minutes the soldiers lowered their weapons and crossed back in to Mexico on foot.

The stretch of desert is frequently crossed by human and drug smugglers from Mexico, and the border line in the area is not always clearly marked, Scioli said.

A spokesman for the U.S. State Department said the incursion had been brought to the attention of the Mexican government, and appeared to be accidental.

"Our understanding is that this encounter stemmed from a momentary misunderstanding as to the exact location of the U.S.-Mexican border," Gonzalo Gallegos said.

"We recognize that occasional incidents such as this can and do occur. But we take the misunderstanding seriously, as does the Government of Mexico."

Incursions by Mexican military personnel into the United States over the nearly 2,000-mile (3,200-km) southwest border are not uncommon. Scioli said 42 incidents had been reported since October 1 last year.

(Reporting by Tim Gaynor; editing by Alan Elsner)

One 'mistake' I could understand, but 42 in under a year, in an era of GPS? How is this not an act of war or something?

Yeah, what a shame they didn't pull gps devices out of their asses. Or may be they should get some glasses and look at that big red seperation line painted in the send

[Surlethe]

I wonder how many US border patrolmen accidentally cross the border in a year. I'll bet it's a similar number.