Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[CJvR]

I see a BBC reporter convoy was deliberately targeted by an Su-25.

From which side?

[Admiral Valdemar]

The side dealing the most damage now. That should be obvious. Are the Georgians in the habit of blowing their own cities up now?

[Straha]

No. That would be a reasonable way for a German ruler in the 1930s to regain the Danzig corridor, a crucial factor in German sovereignty, at the time, without plunging Europe into a massive war. Any government in power at the time could not have done anything except act to regain the corridor, and in my opinion such a partition would be the only way to do so without causing a war that would kill millions of people (I do happen to have humanitarian impulses, though nobody may believe me).

So, just to be clear, Georgia forcibly controlling and repressing dissent inside its own borders: Uncool.
Russia and Germany expanding their territory on unwilling people through force and then subjecting them through brute power: Perfectly acceptable?

That the SS Handzar Division existed in the 1990s is, surely, beyond doubt? And surely, too, the Bosniak government made a conscious choice to employ it, yes? They voluntarily employed a unit of 6,000 men who proudly took on the identity of an SS unit and fought in a war of atrocities in the name of that SS unity, and the Bosniak government chose to integrate them into their armed forces for the duration of that conflict. Those are indisputable facts.

Actually, if you re-read the article, it shows quite clearly that the local government authorities do not like the soldiers. In fact the police chief even apologized for their actions to the reporter according to the article. It would not surprise me in the least if these mercenaries declared themselves to be part of the Bosnian army to be on the winning side when the dust settled. Can you show evidence of any of their SS ideology showing up in other units or from Bosniak officials in power then or now?

[Ubiquitous]

Here is the latest, updated video of the attack on the BBC reporter by the Russian Su-25:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm

Pretty scary stuff. Thankfully, the Russian pilot had shit accuracy.

[Darth Wong]

It begins and ends here: a state exists because other states agree that it does.

Several questions come to mind:

1) What makes this criterion more valid than any other?

2) How many other nations must recognize a state before it exists according to this criterion?

3) When did America first exist as a state according to this criterion?

4) Hypothetically speaking, if a region considered itself a state, and held elections, and the vast majority of its residents considered itself a state, but outside countries refused to recognize it, would it not be a state?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Russia and Germany expanding their territory on unwilling people through force and then subjecting them through brute power: Perfectly acceptable?

The only area that would have resisted is Bohemia, and I proposed making it an autonomous protectorate. If it wanted independence again, it would probably be granted. If the Russians and Poles don't want to be immoral, well, they can just not invade.

Actually, if you re-read the article, it shows quite clearly that the local government authorities do not like the soldiers. In fact the police chief even apologized for their actions to the reporter according to the article. It would not surprise me in the least if these mercenaries declared themselves to be part of the Bosnian army to be on the winning side when the dust settled. Can you show evidence of any of their SS ideology showing up in other units or from Bosniak officials in power then or now?

Why would they have come there except to fight for the Bosniaks in the first place, praytell?

[xerex]

The only area that would have resisted is Bohemia, and I proposed making it an autonomous protectorate. If it wanted independence again, it would probably be granted. If the Russians and Poles don't want to be immoral, well, they can just not invade.

On the contrary, had I been ruler of Germany at the time I would have also annexed the Sudetenland. For that matter I would have annexed the rest of Bohemia and then made an offer to the Poles and Soviets to make a three-way annexation of the Baltics, with Germany getting Memelland and the Danzig Corridor, the Poles getting the rest of Lithuania and receiving Courland to provide a new seaport, and the Soviets getting Estonia and the other half of Latvia (to sweeten the deal for the Poles, I'd offer them about half of Slovakia with the other half and Transcarpathian Ruthenia going to Hungary)

I suspect Slovakia and the Baltic states would also have objected

[xammer99]

Here is the latest, updated video of the attack on the BBC reporter by the Russian Su-25:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm

Pretty scary stuff. Thankfully, the Russian pilot had shit accuracy.

That is a damn interesting video.

This whole presents some very interesting questions and demonstrations.

On the one hand, the Russians are showing that they are quite willing to go to the mattresses to "liberate" a friendly ethnic group (read humiliate a former possession that got to friendly with a rival).

On the other, a former possession tried a bit to hard to demonstrate its independence by going it alone against the bear.

So I wonder what the ramifications of this are gonna be in the broader picture. How much more attractive will NATO membership look now? How will this weigh on the decisions of NATO members against allowing former soviet possessions in? Will this push other possessions who aren't so interest in NATO into forming some sort of mutual defense pact amongst themselves? Or will the former possessions allow themselves to get drawn more deeply back into Russias orbit? Also given the number of ethnicities resident within Russia... might we now see some of them getting a bit uppity on their own on Russias new precident of sticking up for them?

Oh and the big one... attacking that Pipeline... That's an attack on the economic interests of Turkey, a NATO member.

So many nifty possibilities!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The only area that would have resisted is Bohemia, and I proposed making it an autonomous protectorate. If it wanted independence again, it would probably be granted. If the Russians and Poles don't want to be immoral, well, they can just not invade.

On the contrary, had I been ruler of Germany at the time I would have also annexed the Sudetenland. For that matter I would have annexed the rest of Bohemia and then made an offer to the Poles and Soviets to make a three-way annexation of the Baltics, with Germany getting Memelland and the Danzig Corridor, the Poles getting the rest of Lithuania and receiving Courland to provide a new seaport, and the Soviets getting Estonia and the other half of Latvia (to sweeten the deal for the Poles, I'd offer them about half of Slovakia with the other half and Transcarpathian Ruthenia going to Hungary)

I suspect Slovakia and the Baltic states would also have objected

I already address that issue. I don't really understand, either, how a hypothetical response to another bullshit comment by someone in this thread has turned into its own goddamned entirely fictional debate, yeesh. Do you want to go start an off-topic thread about "what would you do if you ruled Germany in the 30's" instead, mayhaps?

[Broomstick]

You would understand, Kast, if you bolstered identity and self-esteem with purple and bellicose rants substantiated by pretentious references to your noble and racial heritage. Duh.

I'm trying to see where my inviting Broomstick to piss on my grandfather's grave and calling my family a bunch of abusive fucks

That IS the impression of them you've given us, with your tales of childhood woe and lack of love and other such things.

What you can't seem to grasp is that not everyone sees the same set of facts the same way and, frankly, your masturbatory fantasies about the great days of the Tsars is making my gorge rise. You attempted to discredit MY family's historical experience by dismissing us as Jews and not True Russians(TM) despite the uncomfortable-to-you FACT that I have ancestry that IS True Russian(TM) by your definition and their life sucked, too. If speaking out against your bullshit notion that Russia under the Tsars was some sort of fucking paradise for the average Russian is "pissing on your grandfather's grave" I'll go suck down another couple liters of water and have at it again because, you ignorant little bitch, all your histronic protesting will NOT change the truth of the matter or the facts of history.

You are, of course, permitted to have your opinions no matter how insane they may be, but realize you are distinctly in the minority here. Having Russian ancestry does NOT make you a Russian - you're an American, get over it. Having minor noble ancestry does not make you nobility, nor, in this day and age, guarantee you shit.

Odd, isn't it - Edi and Stas Bush actually come from two nations with centuries of animosity between them, butted heads on this board in this thread, and yet have been more rational and civilized towards each other, even in heated disagreement, that YOU have had Marina. Why are you, halfway around the world, getting more worked up about this than the people who actually live in or near the same time zone as Georgia and South Ossetia?

You're starting to sound and act like Arnold Rimmer.

[Pelranius]

On a lighter note, the neocon chest thumping in other boards which shall remain unnamed has reached DPRK levels of hysteria. There are absolute fuckwits who are now claiming that South Ossetia is the new Sudtenland (frighteningly, many are military professionals who I often sought advice from for various matters).

[FSTargetDrone]

Here is the latest, updated video of the attack on the BBC reporter by the Russian Su-25:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm

Pretty scary stuff. Thankfully, the Russian pilot had shit accuracy.

That reporter was remarkably composed in the back seat there.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That IS the impression of them you've given us, with your tales of childhood woe and lack of love and other such things.

What you can't seem to grasp is that not everyone sees the same set of facts the same way and, frankly, your masturbatory fantasies about the great days of the Tsars is making my gorge rise. You attempted to discredit MY family's historical experience by dismissing us as Jews and not True Russians(TM) despite the uncomfortable-to-you FACT that I have ancestry that IS True Russian(TM) by your definition and their life sucked, too. If speaking out against your bullshit notion that Russia under the Tsars was some sort of fucking paradise for the average Russian is "pissing on your grandfather's grave" I'll go suck down another couple liters of water and have at it again because, you ignorant little bitch, all your histronic protesting will NOT change the truth of the matter or the facts of history.

Have at it, certainly, I don't get along with my family. The only goddamned point to all of that was to explain the historical connection with Russia. Shit, I'm less Russian than you are, Broomstick. I'm as Russian as fucking bochwurst. My family nontheless lived there for about 150 years, so I have a certain affinity with the Russian people which may or may not be misplaced. I was just trying to explain that my interest in the Russian side of this conflict was based off of personal reasons rather than the previously supposed ideological nutjobbery attested to, which I actually don't have.

Anyway, are you quite done with accusing me of antisemitism? I never, Never, NEVER, NEVER said your family wasn't Russian, I said that Russians would have seen them as Jews, you whiny fucking dolt! You do this ALL THE FUCKING time on the board, and I'm sure everyone is sick of it! You misinterpret things, throw a hissy fit over them, and then refuse to back down. Jesus fucking christ, and you're calling me crazy? You are the only fucked up bitch on this board who could have managed to turn my willingness to try and COMPROMISE with you and ADMIT TO THE CRIMES OF THE TSARIST ERA onto an attack on your family! And here I admired you and respected you and now I'm just goddamned well crying over the fact that you've chosen to misinterpret me so thoroughly.

The goddamned Tsarists did some absolutely horrible things to Jews, including the fact that they CONSIDERED THEM TO BE PARASITES WHO WERE NOT ACTUALLY RUSSIANS AND NOT ACTUALLY PART OF THE RUSSIAN STATE. And that's what I was referencing, Jesus fucking christ, that horrible and fully worthy of condemnation attitude which led to tens of thousands of deaths and the repression of millions and continues today in the form of unending antisemitism. And when I try to admit that to acknowledge that the Tsarist regime was extremely fucked up and bad, you twist that around to make it seem like I was defending them--why? Because you WANT me to be an evil autocrat? Because you've decided in your head that I am one and I can't ever change, or something? What the hell did I do to deserve that?

You are, of course, permitted to have your opinions no matter how insane they may be, but realize you are distinctly in the minority here. Having Russian ancestry does NOT make you a Russian - you're an American, get over it.

I AM working on changing that. Now that I've come to accept how this country's course is wrong, I'm actually going to pony up and get the fuck out--just give me seven or eight years to get my life in order, thanks much.

Having minor noble ancestry does not make you nobility, nor, in this day and age, guarantee you shit.

As if I don't know that already. I learned that the goddamned hard way, thank you very much. Granted, I probably am a lot more bitter than anyone who was born poor, but you can't fault me for that, I think, with such an abrupt fall from grace and prosperity as I had.

Odd, isn't it - Edi and Stas Bush actually come from two nations with centuries of animosity between them, butted heads on this board in this thread, and yet have been more rational and civilized towards each other, even in heated disagreement, that YOU have had Marina. Why are you, halfway around the world, getting more worked up about this than the people who actually live in or near the same time zone as Georgia and South Ossetia?

You're starting to sound and act like Arnold Rimmer.

Whatever. This isn't a miss manners forum, and you've already made clear that you don't care anything about what I think, just what you want me to think.

[Axis Kast]

Or maybe, *gasp!* the most suitable solution for any problem is one based on the context of that situation, rather than a one-size-fits-all approach! Maybe we should INVESTIGATE THE LOCAL SITUATION and try to make the best and most ethical decision based on the circumstances of that particular region! But no, Comical Axi needs to have a one-size-fits all Absolute Law governing the disposition of territories, because he's a fucking neocon fuckhead.

I do believe you are the one attempted to export your proposed justification for Russian behavior (and accompanying solution to Georgia’s problems) to other times and places – namely, 1991 and 1938.

I am the one explaining why Russia’s behavior in South Ossetia has been dirty pool and why the Russians do not necessarily have any special rights to that region.

In the 16th century. Civilization has advanced considerably since then, and people in those areas have also gotten used to living as Russians for 400 years or so. Re: Mike's point.

In other words, as long as you can hit someone for 400 years, you too can be a legitimate empire with the presumptive right to speak for others. Isn’t that what Georgia is doing? Making sure that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have plenty of time to get used to Georgians?

The NATO response should have been based impartiality, the Russian interest in Serbia as a bellweather should have been respected to avoid the Russians seeing this as an assault on their sphere of influence, and by avoiding turning Sebria into an enemy we could have avoided the fucking Kosovo mess, where the expulsions only started AFTER we started bombing.

We can agree that NATO played its cards poorly vis-à-vis the Russians, who obviously felt that their traditional interests were swept aside.

You’re simply weaving lies, however, when you blame NATO airstrikes for Serbian ethnic cleansing. The Kosovars were receiving shit on a stick before NATO became involved; the Serbs later tried to give it to them that much worse when the curtain began to fall.

Do you blame police officers, too, when they come to break up a fight and somebody ends up cracking another person’s skull while trying to get “last licks” before he’s tackled to the ground?

Not in the current context, dumbshit. Stuff your absolutes.

But your claim is that Georgia lost its presumptive to right to sovereignty over regions that didn’t want to be associated with it when it decided to behave “immorally.” Hence, my point follows.

And that's why there's a war, duh.

And, if you believe this, then you have to admit that Russia is undertaking a powerplay based entirely on self-interest. This isn’t merely a case of Moscow defending its own; they created this enclave of Russians in somebody else’s backyard.

Why should I cater to the refusal of the average American to learn foreign languages? I'll talk with Fima about where some translations might be available, and not from official government-owned sources, either. But it's also very clear with that Ralph Peters article that the American "media" is ten times more fucking biased than the Russian media. He sounds like he's making a bigger deal out of this than the fucking Georgians themselves are! And you want to trust sources like that more than the Russian sources? Whatever.

Are you actually going to address the issue at hand, which is the credibility of Russian news media, or are you going to continue to hand wave and claim that everyone should have the same taste in language study as you?

Because the Serbs at least managed autonomy and most of the old core of these types of scum was gutted, certainly; the end result was better than it could have been, to be sure. But how exactly is a government which even hires 6,000 mercenaries who style themselves as an SS division being moral?

The Serbs managed “autonomy” by doing what the Chinese government does in Tibet and Xinjiang. Oh, and by responding to agitation for national independence with rape, torture, and mass slaughter.

A government which even hires 6,000 mercenaries who style themselves as an SS division isn’t being moral. Of course, when the alternative is being killed wholesale, there’s not much point quibbling. Leaving aside the fact that the Serbs committed the same kinds of atrocities that those 6,000 scumbags seem to endorse.

China hasn't just fallen apart at the seams, dumbass.

Once again, this is implicit approval of the Iron Fist approach. Why the sour apples about Georgian behavior, then?

Even if the Ossetians themselves did intentionally target civilians, that does NOT give the Georgians the right to slaughter Ossetian civilians, and the Russians have been quite judicious in their own use of force, with only the typical collateral damage we've dished out in Iraq and Serbia, etc.

Once again, moral outrage is one thing; common practice, another. This is par for the course. Getting in a snit because Georgians do it marks you as someone who cares about Just War. It doesn’t immediately make the Georgians stand-out betrayers of everything the international community holds dear.

It's nice when it happens, though, isn't it? And the Russians have a nice big hammer to make it happen with.

Actually, the Russians are cleaning up shop after a cunningly laid trap that the Georgians walked right into. It was one of those situations in which Russia had the upper hand (nay, the future victory) in pocket from Day One.

Or maybe Russia is a MORE responsible polyglot nation than Georgia, and therefore incorporates them? Ossetia, after all, is not going to become an independent country either way.

So now we’re going on who would think would a more responsible government? The United States is almost certainly more responsible than a divided Iraqi government with ethnic feuds to settle.

Yeah, just like Broomstick said that and was conceding and apologizing a couple hours later? You just all have big hate-ons for Russia.

That’s the best you can do? I accuse you of refusing to play with proper definitions and you cry that I hate Russia?

Personally? I just think you can’t bare to criticize the people why fly the neat machines you like to watch so much.

If the Russians were impartial, good. The Georgian savagery deserves it.

Peacekeeping is generally supposed to involve impartial parties, not partial ones – and the Russians were partial. They dispensed political services in the recognized territory of another nation. They moved military equipment into the hands of a rebel army.

Now for Mike’s questions…

What makes this criterion more valid than any other?

It is simply the way the world works.

Why is Russia a state? Its borders and government therein are recognized by the rest of the world as legitimate and inviolate. You may then argue that the rest of the world is unable to change these borders, physically, or that it has no interest in transgressing them even if it is able, but the end result is still external acknowledgement.

Why wasn’t Rhodesia a state? It had self-defined borders contiguous with a self-governing British protectorate. It had government within those borders. But due to its moral outrages as defined by the rest of the international community, it went unrecognized. And this obviously “mattered” in the physical realm: Rhodesia was subject to all sorts of embargoes and had to tiptoe carefully around various laws in host countries in order to enjoy certain benefits or the possibility of trade.

How many other nations must recognize a state before it exists according to this criterion?

Typically, a supermajority. In practice, unrecognized entities either go entirely unrecognized (Katanga) or have a handful of willing clients in the international system that grant them the essentials for life in limbo.

When did America first exist as a state according to this criterion?

When the British left and those who wanted to do business with the United States could stop skulking past the Royal Navy.

Hypothetically speaking, if a region considered itself a state, and held elections, and the vast majority of its residents considered itself a state, but outside countries refused to recognize it, would it not be a state?

Not de jure, no. The sovereign authority would be, by definition, obliged to correct the “defect.” It’s how sovereignty works.

Why would they have come there except to fight for the Bosniaks in the first place, praytell?

The question isn’t whether they lent their services to a people or government in extreme duress, but whether they represent an actual constituency in popular Bosniak opinion, or a splinter group of armed thugs with a peculiar ideology whom nobody is powerful enough to really contest in their immediate area-of-operations.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You would understand, Kast, if you bolstered identity and self-esteem with purple and bellicose rants substantiated by pretentious references to your noble and racial heritage. Duh.

I'm trying to see where my inviting Broomstick to piss on my grandfather's grave and calling my family a bunch of abusive fucks

That IS the impression of them you've given us, with your tales of childhood woe and lack of love and other such things.

What you can't seem to grasp is that not everyone sees the same set of facts the same way and, frankly, your masturbatory fantasies about the great days of the Tsars is making my gorge rise. You attempted to discredit MY family's historical experience by dismissing us as Jews and not True Russians(TM) despite the uncomfortable-to-you FACT that I have ancestry that IS True Russian(TM) by your definition and their life sucked, too. If speaking out against your bullshit notion that Russia under the Tsars was some sort of fucking paradise for the average Russian is "pissing on your grandfather's grave" I'll go suck down another couple liters of water and have at it again because, you ignorant little bitch, all your histronic protesting will NOT change the truth of the matter or the facts of history.

You are, of course, permitted to have your opinions no matter how insane they may be, but realize you are distinctly in the minority here. Having Russian ancestry does NOT make you a Russian - you're an American, get over it. Having minor noble ancestry does not make you nobility, nor, in this day and age, guarantee you shit.

Odd, isn't it - Edi and Stas Bush actually come from two nations with centuries of animosity between them, butted heads on this board in this thread, and yet have been more rational and civilized towards each other, even in heated disagreement, that YOU have had Marina. Why are you, halfway around the world, getting more worked up about this than the people who actually live in or near the same time zone as Georgia and South Ossetia?

You're starting to sound and act like Arnold Rimmer.

Thank you. This is exactly why I'm fed up and exasperated. There's simply not excuse other than an obvious case of inappropriately allocated feelings of identity and self-esteem wrapped up in pompous historical heritage for your insane rantings. Stas Bush LIVES IN FUCKING RUSSIA, not the tenous link that you share with Romanov Russia and I with the Mexican Revolution's Villaistas. But unlike you, I don't repeatedly find reference to talk about my father not being around, about how a link with the campesinos makes me feel biased one way or another about Mexican immigration or drug smuggling and blah blah blah. You're a fucking pain in the ass to deal with and tiresome. You're offensive and opaque to the comments and feelings of others, and the only thing you can dredge up is that mommy and daddy weren't nice and you have identity issues so you need this. Every thread you participate in you mutilate with this utter horseshit, Marina. Its not any fun. That's what it is. Pretentious, wannabe, horseshit.

[Steve]

Broom, did you read my post to you last night at all? The part where I specifically pointed out what Marina said and the rather clear wording of it that showed your "she said we were Jews and couldn't be Russians!" reaction to be completely wrong?

Did you miss that or did you willingly ignore it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ugh, and more anti-Americanism too, from the idiot who plans on financing her future and education with U.S. government subsidized educational institutions and on the same breathe talks about the fucking KREMLIN being a force for good in rearranging borders. Because I'm sure with her issues it'd be just delightful to live there instead.

Plenty of people find a way to criticize Marina, to express their opinions, but you have to turn everything into a goddamn panegyric or polemic and bend it all to your sob stories and Great Struggle. We sympathize, we do. But its not appropriate, and its completely ridiculous to drag it into a discussion of geopolitics.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Thank you. This is exactly why I'm fed up and exasperated. There's simply not excuse other than an obvious case of inappropriately allocated feelings of identity and self-esteem wrapped up in pompous historical heritage for your insane rantings. Stas Bush LIVES IN FUCKING RUSSIA, not the tenous link that you share with Romanov Russia and I with the Mexican Revolution's Villaistas. But unlike you, I don't repeatedly find reference to talk about my father not being around, about how a link with the campesinos makes me feel biased one way or another about Mexican immigration or drug smuggling and blah blah blah. You're a fucking pain in the ass to deal with and tiresome. You're offensive and opaque to the comments and feelings of others, and the only thing you can dredge up is that mommy and daddy weren't nice and you have identity issues so you need this. Every thread you participate in you mutilate with this utter horseshit, Marina. Its not any fun. That's what it is. Pretentious, wannabe, horseshit.

You little fucking dipshit. Is this a homophobic attack on me?

Because I can't see it being anything else, seeing as, you know, what I originally said IS THE COMPLETE FUCKING EXACT OPPOSITE OF THIS.

What the fuck am I supposed to do when I have people ACCUSING ME OF BEING A DEFENDER OF THE ROMANOVS BECAUSE I LISTED OUT SOME ROMANOV ATROCITIES?

I mean, WHAT THE FUCK?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Do you realize how far you've gone over the edge in your insane hatred of me when you start twisting my words around to mean the exact opposite thing and then use that to bash me? What the hell do you people think you are doing? What the hell are you reading in your heads? I DO NOT support authoritarian monarchy and if I ever say I do in the future than you can gladly kick the shit out of me, OK? I DO NOT SUPPORT IT.

And what I said in this thread was a LITANY OF THE CRIMES of an authority monarchy, NOT in support of it!

This is motherfucking insane! YOU are acting motherfucking insane!

[Illuminatus Primus]

You little fucking dipshit. Is this a homophobic attack on me?

Because I can't see it being anything else, seeing as, you know, what I originally said IS THE COMPLETE FUCKING EXACT OPPOSITE OF THIS.

What the fuck am I supposed to do when I have people ACCUSING ME OF BEING A DEFENDER OF THE ROMANOVS BECAUSE I LISTED OUT SOME ROMANOV ATROCITIES?

I mean, WHAT THE FUCK?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Do you realize how far you've gone over the edge in your insane hatred of me when you start twisting my words around to mean the exact opposite thing and then use that to bash me? What the hell do you people think you are doing? What the hell are you reading in your heads? I DO NOT support authoritarian monarchy and if I ever say I do in the future than you can gladly kick the shit out of me, OK? I DO NOT SUPPORT IT.

And what I said in this thread was a LITANY OF THE CRIMES of an authority monarchy, NOT in support of it!

This is motherfucking insane! YOU are acting motherfucking insane!

Jesus Christ. I never said anything about your sexual identity. I said your identity, as demonstrated by Broomstick, you have this repeated tendency to launch into diatribes implying you're part of some protected nobility. Everyone else feels this coming off of you.

[Steve]

May I also remark that even if one can rightfully be skeptical about Russian sources, it is bad pool to simply stamp them "biased" and refuse to consider them at all? Take them with a grain of salt, by all means, but rejection out of hand does nothing for the debate save declare where your sympathies lie and that you refuse to consider alternative views.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The point isn't standing behind Romanov Russia, its implying you're a partisan of Russia because of race identity and then treating us to a paragraph of "my ancestors were nobles from blah blah blah" - what the fuck does that have to do with this thread?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The point isn't standing behind Romanov Russia, its implying you're a partisan of Russia because of race identity and then treating us to a paragraph of "my ancestors were nobles from blah blah blah" - what the fuck does that have to do with this thread?

Not race identity. I am not ethnically Russian, something else I repeatedly stated. I said "cultural affinities." It was just an offhand remark explaining where my sympathies came from, to demonstrate that I was NOT supporting Russia out of a knee-jerk love for authoritarianism, Primus. Now if you cool down and think about that for a moment, you may realize just how badly you misinterpreted me.

And, again, the original statement in bolded colour for everyone to see:

I got the impression that your family was Jewish, not at all Russian by the Russian view of things, which means it was horrifically repressed, confined to the pale of settlement, and regularly subjected to extremely violent pogroms by paramilitary Orthodox groups.

How the hell has this been managed to be turned into a defence of the Russian Empire? I mean, seriously, what the fucking hell?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Ugh, and more anti-Americanism too, from the idiot who plans on financing her future and education with U.S. government subsidized educational institutions and on the same breathe talks about the fucking KREMLIN being a force for good in rearranging borders. Because I'm sure with her issues it'd be just delightful to live there instead.

Plenty of people find a way to criticize Marina, to express their opinions, but you have to turn everything into a goddamn panegyric or polemic and bend it all to your sob stories and Great Struggle. We sympathize, we do. But its not appropriate, and its completely ridiculous to drag it into a discussion of geopolitics.

I have no desire to live in Russia for social reasons. I am however simply defending the idea that they might be better rulers of South Ossetia and Abkhazia than the Georgians--a completely unrelated issue.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Okay, well its easy to think its about race identity when you went on a rant about Zbignew Brzezinski trying to destroy the Slav, and America trying to wreck Slavs, etc., etc. I don't think its fair to discard the sovereignty of Georgia simply because the collapse of the Soviet State was not handled well. And I don't think rallying behind Wilson-style ethnic self-determination is the right way to deal with a state that's not guaranteeing protections for its citizens and rule of law. Not every tribe gets a country. Sorry.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Jesus Christ. I never said anything about your sexual identity. I said your identity, as demonstrated by Broomstick, you have this repeated tendency to launch into diatribes implying you're part of some protected nobility. Everyone else feels this coming off of you.

I see myself as a bit of a world-citizen, really, seeing as I'd be comfortable in more or less any country, and have lost my strong national instincts over the past few years. I'd defend Russia, China, India, und so weiter all the same way. And I'm certainly not a part of a protected nobility. There was no diatribe here, just my trying to explain the reason I felt an affinity for Russia, which promptly blew up because Broomstick is looking for a fight.