Gainesville FL Full of Troglodytes (Gender Identity Rights)

[Illuminatus Primus]

By MEGAN ROLLAND
Sun staff writer

Published: Sunday, February 3, 2008 at 6:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, February 2, 2008 at 11:09 p.m.
A heated and vocal response to a new Gainesville ordinance that extends rights to transgender individuals has garnered national attention.

Frequently asked questions
>Does this ordinance allow a man to enter a women's restroom?

"An employer cannot require an individual whose gender identity is inconsistent with their sex use a unisex bathroom," says Charles L. Hauck, senior assistant city attorney. "That individual would be allowed under the ordinance to use the sex-designated bathroom consistent with their gender identity, regardless of their (biological) sex. A refusal of the employer to allow such individual to utilize their gender-identity-consistent bathroom, by forcing the individual to use a unisex bathroom, would appear to be a violation of the ordinance."

>Does this ordinance allow a man to enter a women's dressing room?

"Where the employer (or business such as a fitness center) provides shared facilities for its employees (or customers), which are distinctly private in nature where being seen fully unclothed is unavoidable, such as shower rooms and dressing rooms . . . Denial of access to and use of such facilities on the basis of gender identity would be permitted if the employer provides reasonable access to and use of adequate facilities that are not inconsistent with the employee's gender identity," reads the city's transgender ordinance. Commissioner Craig Lowe, who helped draft the ordinance, says providing alternate accommodations for a transgender customer would be required only if such additions were "readily available" - in other words, not cost-prohibitive.

Discussion of Monday night's City Commission vote appeared on the much-read Drudge Report Tuesday and Wednesday this week.

These days, municipalities voting to include "gender identity" as a group of people protected from discrimination is part of a growing trend, not only in Florida but across the nation.

Last summer, both West Palm Beach and Lake Worth passed protections for transgender people, and according to their city governments, there was no protest during the implementation or problems afterward.

"It wasn't even a blip on the screen here," said Lake Worth Mayor Jeff Clemens, adding that there have been no issues since the law was implemented either. "I think the entire community took it in stride. We believe it's important to treat every person the same no matter what their gender identity."

Minneapolis became the first city to protect its transgender population in 1975, and the civil rights department for the city hasn't documented any problems. Since 1975, 93 cities and counties, 13 states and the District of Columbia have enacted similar laws.

Yet in Gainesville on Monday, public comment on the issue lasted more than two hours, and e-mails are still being sent to those who voted to approve the ordinance: Mayor Pegeen Hanrahan and Commissioners Craig Lowe, Jeanna Mastrodicasa and Jack Donovan.

The ordinance defines gender identity as "an inner sense of being a specific gender, or the expression of a gender identity by verbal statement, appearance, or mannerisms, or other gender-related characteristics of an individual with or without regard to the individual's designated sex at birth."

That definition broadens the range of application to not only people who have undergone sex-change operations, but also the people in a community who are transitioning from one gender to another or those who simply project themselves as a gender other than what they were born, said Jennifer Sager a private practice psychologist who does specialty work in transgender issues in Gainesville.

"The heart of the definition is not on any type of objective or measurable criteria," said Commissioner Ed Braddy, who was one of three on the commission to oppose the ordinance. "It simply goes on how someone feels, so that is sort of ripe for abuse."

Braddy said that when domestic partnership benefits became available, one of the first people to apply were brothers in a fraternity house as a practical joke. He said that illustrates the need for these ordinances to be as narrowly defined as possible.

Sager said that studies estimate one out of every 2,000 individuals in the world has had sexual reassignment surgery. Sager said that because sexual reassignment surgery is so expensive, most transgender people don't fall into that category.

"An estimated one in 200 people are transgendered, meaning they have some amount of feelings that they have gender incongruence," Sager said.

An estimate based on people who have contacted The Sun and their acquaintances has identified at least 12 people in the Gainesville area who are protected by the new law.

While the population is small, Brian Winfield, director of communications for Equality Florida, said it is a group of people very heavily discriminated against.

"It's absolutely essential," Winfield said. "Just this past year . . . in Largo, a small town outside of St. Petersburg, they fired their city manager after 14 years of service to the city . . . simply because the city manager announced that he was transitioning from male to female.

"We're talking about someone who earned $140,000 a year, and can't find a job because they're transgendered."

But the clause extending fair employment to transgendered people isn't the one drawing criticism. Business owners say they are concerned about the public accommodation portion of the ordinance, which requires people not be denied access to public facilities based on the fact that they identify with a gender other than what they were born as.

Joe Cirulli, founder of Gainesville Health & Fitness Centers, the city's largest fitness provider, was among those who waited in line to address the City Commission Monday night. His comments were quick and to the point: How would this affect GH&FC, which provides showers and locker rooms for both men and women at all its centers except for its one women's center that has facilities only for women.

Josh Alterman, owner of Alter Ego Fitness in Gainesville, shares Circulli's apprehension. "It does concern me," said Alterman. "I would be very uncomfortable letting a transgender customer into our female restroom, and I think that would make our female customers very uncomfortable."

The ordinance in Gainesville specifies that a business is allowed to deny transgender people access to facilities where being seen naked is unavoidable, provided that access to an equal facility is available.

Commissioner Craig Lowe, who helped draft the ordinance, maintains that providing such alternate accommodations for a transgender customer would be required only if such additions were "readily available" - in other words, not cost-prohibitive.

Still, the prospect of where to place transgender customers in locker rooms has thrust gyms and athletic clubs to the forefront of the issue.

"If I had to do construction within my facility and it was costing me money, that would be a concern," Alterman said. He said that his gym at 101 SE 2nd Place happens to have a separate unisex bathroom that he would be willing to let anybody use.

However, because that bathroom doesn't have a shower, Alterman said it might not meet requirements of being "equal."

Commissioner Braddy has opposed the ordinance from the beginning as something that is bad for business.

"It makes a claim on other people's property," Braddy said.

The general standing fear among those who oppose the ordinance seems to be that a man dressed as a woman can now legally enter a women's bathroom.

"A majority of the people, really, really are opposed to the bathroom and shower thing," said Carol Daly, a Gainesville resident who was frustrated to find that the anti-discrimination ordinances in both Miami Beach and Key West are actually less strict than Gainesville's. Both of those cities' laws exempt discrimination on the basis of sex in restrooms and shower rooms. "I wouldn't have any trouble" if Ganesville's ordinance had similar exemptions, Daly said.

Daly's goal is to get restrooms excluded from the new city ordinance, which already exempts shower rooms or locker rooms, as long as access to an equal facility is available.

Tom Oosterhoudt, former Key West commissioner and author of Key West's transgender law, said the exemption was included in that city's ordinance primarily for schools.

"The actual effect of the ordinance is non-consequential,'' Oosterhoudt said. "Normally, and 9 times out of 10, transgender people use the restroom and nobody's going to ever know.

"I haven't heard the least bit of flak. There has been no outrage or no situation where someone said 'oh, man, that law was bad.' ''

And as for concerns that the Gainesville ordinance will put females at risk in the restrooms, Nora Spencer, director of the University of Florida Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Affairs, contends that most of those fears are unfounded. "I think there's a misunderstanding about who exactly is a threat, statistically," Spencer said. "People think that pedophiles and rapists are transgender people, but the truth is 95 percent of these threats are middle-aged heterosexual men."

"Trans people are using bathrooms now and have been forever," Spencer said. "People probably didn't even realize they were in there."

This is a pretty liberal town, for the population size, density, and location, that's for sure, but I'm really taken aback by the force of the troglodyte response has been revolting. I'm assailed by "keep men out of women's bathrooms" signs and petitions on street corners all throughout town. It was enough to make me upset on the way to breakfast the other day, because I just hadn't ever seen anything so hateful so prevalently. That and my boss - an ardent conservative - makes comments all the time about it. I was wondering if anyone had advice about how to deal with that, other than shutting the fuck, which is what I have been doing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Also, I lived in Largo, and I was around when they drove the poor woman out, even though she'd done a fine job of being city manager.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Because people are totally going to tell that I'm transexual in the bathroom!

*snickers*

Let's come up with a simple test here: If you look like a man, use the men's room. If you look like a woman, use the women's room.

Granted, I don't even legally exist in Texas, Oklahoma, or Kansas, so there's obviously much worse in this nation, but I find the issue hilarious. These people clearly think of crossdressing 55-year old men on the Jerry Springer show when they imagine transexuals, and think of 6'5" 250lb linebackers with stubble on their faces and cheap wigs in miniskirts and super-high-heels caking on makeup in a public bathroom and trying to peak under the stall door. No, people, it's just a girl who needs to use the restroom like everyone else..

Ah, well, at least I live in the Pale where this isn't an issue.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Does anyone else have friends or coworkers who are bigotted? How do you defuse that awkward moment where they say something and you know your face goes "wow that's ignorant/hateful"? Because for me it makes me as uncomfortable as public racism.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Does anyone else have friends or coworkers who are bigotted? How do you defuse that awkward moment where they say something and you know your face goes "wow that's ignorant/hateful"? Because for me it makes me as uncomfortable as public racism.

I'm simply not sure it's possible to avoid.

[Darksider]

[quote="The Duchess of Zeon
Granted, I don't even legally exist in Texas, Oklahoma, or Kansas, [/quote]

I don't mean to pry but, What the fuck?

Shouldn't that be against some form of federal law or something?

[Ender]

Does anyone else have friends or coworkers who are bigotted? How do you defuse that awkward moment where they say something and you know your face goes "wow that's ignorant/hateful"? Because for me it makes me as uncomfortable as public racism.

Bite my tongue and hope no one overheard. Though with me its family so you can't crash down as hard as you would on your buddy.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Because people are totally going to tell that I'm transexual in the bathroom!

*snickers*

Let's come up with a simple test here: If you look like a man, use the men's room. If you look like a woman, use the women's room.

Just don't use the urinal in the ladies' room, and nobody will notice.

*rimshot*

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't mean to pry but, What the fuck?

Shouldn't that be against some form of federal law or something?

According to court rulings in those states (in contrast with Idaho, Tennessee, and Ohio, where you will be merely always considered male even if you have full reconstructive surgery), transexuals are neither male nor female, and yet no third category exists, meaning it is actually technically illegal for any transexual woman to possess ID from those states regardless of what the sex marker said, making it impossible for her to legally have ID. The other 44 states of the Union generally tend to be fairly decent about it, by way of comparison.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Because people are totally going to tell that I'm transexual in the bathroom!

*snickers*

Let's come up with a simple test here: If you look like a man, use the men's room. If you look like a woman, use the women's room.

Just don't use the urinal in the ladies' room, and nobody will notice.

*rimshot*

Let's not make rimshots when discussing bathrooms, shall we? It's just unhygienic.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Because people are totally going to tell that I'm transexual in the bathroom!

*snickers*

Let's come up with a simple test here: If you look like a man, use the men's room. If you look like a woman, use the women's room.

Just don't use the urinal in the ladies' room, and nobody will notice.

*rimshot*

That was extremely offensive, for future reference.

[Oskuro]

I would only see a problem if the transgendered person were to reveal a perfectly male penis when getting nude on a female locker room... And only because even open minded women wouldn't feel comfortable in such a situation.

Same the other way around, even in my open-mindedness, it would come as a bit of a shock to see the man getting undressed beside me has a vagina down there.



As for bigoted people and their claims... Depends on your relationship with them. If they value you, and you value them, then those subjects should eventually fade because they know they are bothering you... if not, or worse, if they are in a position of power (say, a boss, or a family member you don't want to upset), then it's toungue-biting time.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That's why you providing dressing rooms with changing stalls with doors.

[Dark Hellion]

Duchess, I accidentally clicked on the photo after the link, and while your face is cute at normal size, its kinda frightening when its HUGE!

Anywho, I have to think, if someone makes a big fuss over transsexuals sharing the bathroom, shouldn't we also have a lesbian only ladies room? They are afraid of being checked out while in the pisser right? Or is it just the squirmy they are different from us thing, because last I checked, pre-op transsexuals have these things called penises, which most ladies prefer to the vag? So maybe its just me being drunk, but most of the bitching is childish nonsense from oversensitive women and more importantly, the bitchy little men who want to control them. Because god forbid you have to go the bathroom with a bunch of other people who are women, because that would be horrible.

Keep fighting the good fight Duchess. You are one of the most interesting people I know on the 'net (that's saying a lot) and I hate the fact that the world is against you because of such a stupid and silly thing as gender. You would think people would grow up eventually, but no luck. I hope you the best DH.

[Rye]

It's entirely predictable and entirely sickening. As soon as really "heartfelt" contempt for variation, especially sexual variation (to a lesser extent, clothing variation) get addressed, painful growth like this inevitably occurs and it can go both ways depending on how humane vs tribalistic the local population is on such matters.

As for how to deal with it, I would probably ask for a quick private chat with your boss and say I had a friend go through it and his comments are hurtful. Assuming he has respect for you, he'll not kick up a fuss about it at least in your presence.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because people are totally going to tell that I'm transexual in the bathroom!

*snickers*

Let's come up with a simple test here: If you look like a man, use the men's room. If you look like a woman, use the women's room.

Just don't use the urinal in the ladies' room, and nobody will notice.

*rimshot*

Oh my God. Are you this fucking ignorant? Jesus.

[Broomstick]

I think it was meant as a joke.

[Darth Wong]

Does anyone else have friends or coworkers who are bigotted?

Dude, everyone has bigoted coworkers. Friends you can do something about, but coworkers are people you're stuck with, so you just have to suck it up, be professional, and ignore it. Only talk about the issue if they start the conversation, in which case you have the handy answer if they get upset: "Hey, I'm not the guy who wanted to talk about this".

And I like to ask the question: "suppose you had a cousin who was <gay|trans|muslim|getting an abortion>. Would you disown your own blood?"

Of course, sometimes the answer is "yes", in which case you know you're dealing with a class A douchebag. But a lot of times, a question like that does tend to moderate their responses.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think it was meant as a joke.

It was, though I guess it was in poor taste. I appologize to Marina.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think it was meant as a joke.

It was, though I guess it was in poor taste. I appologize to Marina.

Extremely poor taste. It implies things about my behaviour (and biology, at this point after this long on this high dose of hormones) that are pretty nasty, frankly. That said, I wasn't offended, because I expect such comments as a matter of course anyway; that's what I have a thick skin for, rather as a necessity.

[Darksider]

According to court rulings in those states (in contrast with Idaho, Tennessee, and Ohio, where you will be merely always considered male even if you have full reconstructive surgery), transexuals are neither male nor female, and yet no third category exists, meaning it is actually technically illegal for any transexual woman to possess ID from those states regardless of what the sex marker said, making it impossible for her to legally have ID. The other 44 states of the Union generally tend to be fairly decent about it, by way of comparison.

How in the hell is this legal under anti-descrimination laws?
I suppose transexuals are the one group whose rights no one is willing to fight for.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

According to court rulings in those states (in contrast with Idaho, Tennessee, and Ohio, where you will be merely always considered male even if you have full reconstructive surgery), transexuals are neither male nor female, and yet no third category exists, meaning it is actually technically illegal for any transexual woman to possess ID from those states regardless of what the sex marker said, making it impossible for her to legally have ID. The other 44 states of the Union generally tend to be fairly decent about it, by way of comparison.

How in the hell is this legal under anti-descrimination laws?
I suppose transexuals are the one group whose rights no one is willing to fight for.

Anti-discrimination laws for transexuals do not exist in most of the country, nor at the federal level. Hell, they don't exist for gay people in most of the country or at the federal level. You can fire someone for no other reason than that, being transexual or gay, in about half of America, even if they are your best employee otherwise.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Does anyone else have friends or coworkers who are bigotted?

Dude, everyone has bigoted coworkers. Friends you can do something about, but coworkers are people you're stuck with, so you just have to suck it up, be professional, and ignore it. Only talk about the issue if they start the conversation, in which case you have the handy answer if they get upset: "Hey, I'm not the guy who wanted to talk about this".

And I like to ask the question: "suppose you had a cousin who was <gay|trans|muslim|getting an abortion>. Would you disown your own blood?"

Of course, sometimes the answer is "yes", in which case you know you're dealing with a class A douchebag. But a lot of times, a question like that does tend to moderate their responses.

I do shut the fuck up, but its just the isolated feeling of being outed as a CommehSocialiberal Sympathizer with the Subhuman Traitors to America when I feel like I give a deer-in-headlights look that betrays my strong judgment toward their comments. I meant more like, has anyone suffered workplace discrimination on account of their political or social beliefs?

[Darth Wong]

I do shut the fuck up, but its just the isolated feeling of being outed as a CommehSocialiberal Sympathizer with the Subhuman Traitors to America when I feel like I give a deer-in-headlights look that betrays my strong judgment toward their comments. I meant more like, has anyone suffered workplace discrimination on account of their political or social beliefs?

You give the "deer in headlights" look because you're afraid of getting outed. I never give that look; my reaction to a troglodyte is usually a bemused smirk. Of course, that can annoy people, because they get the impression that I'm looking down on them even if I don't say anything. Of course, this impression is absolutely correct.

[Broomstick]

I meant more like, has anyone suffered workplace discrimination on account of their political or social beliefs?

Yes. I have.