Iraq - M1A1 and Upgrade to M1A1M Abrams Tanks

[Sidewinder]

There is NO CHANCE of the Iraqis selling a M1 tank without the various US intelligence services finding out about it and tracking down the thing. Tanks are HEAVY, they require special equipment to move them (the aforementioned HETs) because the tracks wear down very quickly on roads, they use fuel faster than a wino can drink (Iraq may have a lot of oil wells, but they don't have a lot of refineries, so it's easier to track where the fuel is going), they need regular maintenance, specially trained maintenance crews to do this, and spare parts for them to avoid becoming 50-ton paperweights...

And there's no way they could jury rig something to carry the tank? Really, after all that nonsense the militia pulled and what not, you are giving the intel services too much credit for their abilities.

An M1 weighs 60-70 tons, depending on model. Moving something that fucking heavy is NOT a trivial task.

If you want an idea of how hard it is to move an M1 without having it drive itself (and wear down its tracks, requiring replacement parts that the US intelligence agencies can track), go to the Oshkosh Defense website and study the Heavy Equipment Transporter. Notice the specially designed flatbed trailer the tank is on? Does that look like something you can jury rig without having the damn thing break apart from the weight of its cargo (the tank)?

The US Army used modified versions of commercial tractor trailers during the Gulf War, but found out commercial tractors can't handle the weight of an M1, so they asked Oshkosh to design a tractor trailer that CAN. And before you suggest using the Russian version of the HET to move an M1 Abrams, note that Russian tanks are lighter than their American contemporaries (the T-72 weighs 41-45 tons, depending on model).

[Kanastrous]

I suspect that, somewhere in a nation the size of Iraq, there is at least one heavy-equipment transporter capable of moving an M1A1...

[Sea Skimmer]

Stealing an M1A1 Abrams is completely possible if someone had high level connections to actually get hold of the tank at all… but who gives a shit? Other then the special armor, which will no doubt be downgraded, nothing on the tank is exactly secret. We’ve sold over 1,500 of the things to other Mid East nations in case people forgot that, and Egypt actually locally assembled over 500 of its share.

[Lonestar]

As for depot level maintenance, its funny anyone would even being that up (and no I don’t believe they are so incompetent that a throw track is depot level for an instant)

I do. Fuck, I've helped a Bahraini naval officer(read: did it for him) load a UNIX OS that I was unfamiliar with, using the manual that came with the system. He kinda stood around helpless with his thumb up his ass for who knows how long until we pulled in across the pier and he asked if we could send someone over to help.

Fuck that ship was falling apart too. And we sold it to them!

I have no confidence, none, on Arab militaries being able to perform their own maintenance.

[Sea Skimmer]

Bahraini is barely a city state, let alone a real country; I’m not surprised a tiny ass place with a patrol boat navy before we gave them an old Perry has trouble keeping the thing running. It is however a fact that Arabstates can and do keep large mechanized militaries running, and some very difficult to work on aircraft too like the MiG-25, which Iraq was flying all the way into 2003. They might not do a US quality job but they don’t really have too, espically not to win against insurgents with few heavy weapons. They can stand and fight and hit our tanks and die in place in the best western traditions too, even when the situation is clearly hopeless, as was demonstrated by the Republican guard and even the Iraqi regular Army 12th armored division in 1991. But everyone just goes ‘lol the shells bounced off’ and assumes that means Arabs can’t ever fight no matter what.

Anyway, I happen to be very confidence bet that we can find a shitload of USN officers who don’t know a fucking thing about computers too.

[Lonestar]

Anyway, I happen to be very confidence bet that we can find a shitload of USN officers who don’t know a fucking thing about computers too.

Typically USN officers have trained personnel beneath them who know how to read a fucking manual. And if Bahrain, a well-to-do country can't even produce technicians who can maintain the fucking material condition of a frigate, I am disinclined to think other Arab countries can perform similar "feats" of logistics.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And there's no way they could jury rig something to carry the tank? Really, after all that nonsense the militia pulled and what not, you are giving the intel services too much credit for their abilities.

An M1 weighs 60-70 tons, depending on model. Moving something that fucking heavy is NOT a trivial task.

If you want an idea of how hard it is to move an M1 without having it drive itself (and wear down its tracks, requiring replacement parts that the US intelligence agencies can track), go to the Oshkosh Defense website and study the Heavy Equipment Transporter. Notice the specially designed flatbed trailer the tank is on? Does that look like something you can jury rig without having the damn thing break apart from the weight of its cargo (the tank)?

The US Army used modified versions of commercial tractor trailers during the Gulf War, but found out commercial tractors can't handle the weight of an M1, so they asked Oshkosh to design a tractor trailer that CAN. And before you suggest using the Russian version of the HET to move an M1 Abrams, note that Russian tanks are lighter than their American contemporaries (the T-72 weighs 41-45 tons, depending on model).[/quote]

You are a fucking moron aren't you? Have you ever heard of garage engineering? I don't think you do, since all you seem good for is googling. Have you seen Americans mod their cars? Oh I don't think you have.

[Sidewinder]

You are a fucking moron aren't you? Have you ever heard of garage engineering? I don't think you do, since all you seem good for is googling. Have you seen Americans mod their cars? Oh I don't think you have.

You're seriously deluded if you think "garage engineering" and the American art of hot rodding is comparable to designing a transport system that can carry a 70-ton tank hundreds of miles across roads of variable quality (and not have a blowout when it drives over a pothole or two hundred, as you'd find in third world nations) in variable weather conditions (Korea gets very fucking cold in wintertime, while Iraq is obviously very fucking hot, and US military equipment MUST function in both environments with minimal modifications).

[CmdrWilkens]

As a comparison take the interim solution the Marine Corps came up with...standard flatbed trailer reinforced and attached to the LVS system (a system which, mind you, has a 445hp and a max 1250 lb/ft of Torque ) you can get about 20-25mph and about half of your already crappy fuel efficiency. Oh yeah and you will probably start blowing through the trailer tires in record time.

[Coyote]

To be honest, even if they did sell an M1 to a place like Iran, it wouldn't do the Iranians much good, since they don't have the infrastructure to produce copies. It'd be the one tank (or however many they bought) until it wore down/got destroyed.

They could probably make monkey-parts for it (replacement track of some quality) and eventually make home-made ammunition for it, but it would never be able to reach its potential again.

[Sea Skimmer]

Iran can and does build its own main battle tanks, in the form of the Zulfiqar which is basically an M-60 crossed with a T-72. The only problem with an Abrams would be the electronics, which could be imported anyway, and the special armor. However I suspect Iran is more then capable of devising a basic form of composite armor, after all that only takes 1960s technology. The real issue would simply be that Iran has no use for a 70 ton tank, while the US military is more then able to blow up its own M1s.

[Pelranius]

Iran could always ask China and Russia for help on the composite armor, and get some sort of decent electronics off the black market if Beijing or Moscow prove to be reluctant.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I definitely agree this will help keep the Iraqis in our pocket, and is part of the advantage.

[Phantasee]

There is NO CHANCE of the Iraqis selling a M1 tank without the various US intelligence services finding out about it and tracking down the thing. Tanks are HEAVY, they require special equipment to move them (the aforementioned HETs) because the tracks wear down very quickly on roads, they use fuel faster than a wino can drink (Iraq may have a lot of oil wells, but they don't have a lot of refineries, so it's easier to track where the fuel is going), they need regular maintenance, specially trained maintenance crews to do this, and spare parts for them to avoid becoming 50-ton paperweights...

And there's no way they could jury rig something to carry the tank? Really, after all that nonsense the militia pulled and what not, you are giving the intel services too much credit for their abilities.

An M1 weighs 60-70 tons, depending on model. Moving something that fucking heavy is NOT a trivial task.

If you want an idea of how hard it is to move an M1 without having it drive itself (and wear down its tracks, requiring replacement parts that the US intelligence agencies can track), go to the Oshkosh Defense website and study the Heavy Equipment Transporter. Notice the specially designed flatbed trailer the tank is on? Does that look like something you can jury rig without having the damn thing break apart from the weight of its cargo (the tank)?

The US Army used modified versions of commercial tractor trailers during the Gulf War, but found out commercial tractors can't handle the weight of an M1, so they asked Oshkosh to design a tractor trailer that CAN. And before you suggest using the Russian version of the HET to move an M1 Abrams, note that Russian tanks are lighter than their American contemporaries (the T-72 weighs 41-45 tons, depending on model).

Tractor-trailers move overweight loads regularly from Edmonton to Fort MacMurray. The trucks they were using in 1991 had only 425HP, and I've seen trucks from that era. They don't hold a candle to the power of modern tractors. 500HP Mercedes motors are pretty common around here for gravel trucks, with better CAT and Detroit and Cummins engines (in terms of HP) even more common. Hell, I drive a truck with 475HP and that's on the low side for our fleet.

Western Stars are made for hauling that sort of shit. Don't discount local ingenuity so quickly, Sidewinder.

[Phantasee]

Sorry, the trucks the US military was using in 1991*