Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

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Post by fgalkin »

Darksider wrote:
nickolay1 wrote:Furthermore, there have been photos and videos showing Georgian troops using civilian vehicles, similar to the one used by the reporters.
So the russian's response to Georgian troops using civillian vehicles is to blast everything in sight?

Yes, that will certainly alleviate western fear of russia.

God dammit. Why can't anyone fight a war in a civilized fasion anymore. Why do they always have to involve civillians?
Excuse me? Are you retarded? The plane had just finished attacking Georgian forces, the reporter points it out clearly. It wasn't just a bunch of civillian vehicles in the middle of a road, it was a bunch of civilian vehicles similar to those used by Georgian forces right next to a group of Georgian soldiers. What is the reasonable assumption in this case?

I am happy that the BBC crew wasn't hurt, but frankly, it's their own damn fault for choosing to travel with a Georgian unit.

Have a very nice day.
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Post by Darksider »

Flagg wrote:Yeah, damnit! Why can't we go back to the days of... Umm... Wait... I got nothin'
touche'. I suppose there really hasn't been a time when civillians haven't been involved in warfare to some extent. I just wish modern militaries would exercise a little more fire discipline, ya know? If it isn't a confirmed military or military-industrial target (EX: tank factory) and isn't currently shooting at you, leave it alone dammit!
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Post by Darth Wong »

Darksider wrote:
Flagg wrote:Yeah, damnit! Why can't we go back to the days of... Umm... Wait... I got nothin'
touche'. I suppose there really hasn't been a time when civillians haven't been involved in warfare to some extent. I just wish modern militaries would exercise a little more fire discipline, ya know? If it isn't a confirmed military or military-industrial target (EX: tank factory) and isn't currently shooting at you, leave it alone dammit!
Frankly, once we decide that it's OK to hit "military-industrial" targets rather than just "military" targets, then pretty much everything becomes fair game. Do you really think there's some sharp division between the civilian and military economy? How do you think the military is paid for? With fairy wishes? And how do you think military industry would survive without the civilian industry around it? There is no wall of separation between military and civilian economic-industrial activities.

Either you resolve to hit only military units themselves, or you tell yourself that it's OK to hit "infrastructure" and admit to yourself that yes, all civilians just became fair game.
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Post by Darksider »

Darth Wong wrote:
Either you resolve to hit only military units themselves, or you tell yourself that it's OK to hit "infrastructure" and admit to yourself that yes, all civilians just became fair game.
I suppose that the line between targeting a tank factory and targeting a steel plant is easy to cross, if it's even there in the first place. I just wish we could come up with a better way of fighting wars that didn't get so damn many innocent people killed.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
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Post by Darth Wong »

Darksider wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Either you resolve to hit only military units themselves, or you tell yourself that it's OK to hit "infrastructure" and admit to yourself that yes, all civilians just became fair game.
I suppose that the line between targeting a tank factory and targeting a steel plant is easy to cross, if it's even there in the first place. I just wish we could come up with a better way of fighting wars that didn't get so damn many innocent people killed.
That "better way" is to become better at brinksmanship. Once a war starts, it tends to continue until that line is crossed between hitting military units and hitting the civilian nation which supports them. The real problem is that so many governments and people suck at brinksmanship; once they start rattling sabres, there is so much pressure to go to war that it becomes almost inevitable.
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Post by Edi »

I need to get back to this thread later, since it has certainly ballooned since my last post in it. I would like to offer an apology for my comment about Russian soldiers in my first post in this thread. It was bigoted, mean-spirited, malicious and as Marina observed, born of prejudices rooted in national history. Unlearning such things intellectually and doing so at a more visceral level are two entirely different things.

I would also like to separately apologize to Stas Bush and fgalkin especially. You didn't need that sort of shit from me. I'm sorry.
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Post by Broomstick »

Guardsman Bass wrote:Incidently, could a mod split off the whole bit about how the Bosnians may or may not have had Nazi sympathies along with the whole spat between Broomstick, IP, and the Duchess?
Yes, please, can we do that? We seem to have multiple threads here all mooshed together (and yes, I am partly to blame for that)
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I'm not holding any grudges, Edi.

Personally the whole war is a huge mess, and most people in Russia wish that it ends sooner, since our soldiers from the SFPC are dying because of some local ambitions of smaller nations.

Most of the leaders there are nationalist assholes, from Abkhazia to Georgia proper. It's the people who get to suffer for military actions.

The whole thing just looks like Nagorny Karabach 2.0, and that's certainly not something anyone in Russia wants. :(

Also yes, I live in Russia and I actually can be sent to the warzone, unlike most people speaking in this thread. I can also say that in this case I would take arms and do my duty. However, so far I have not been called upon.
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Post by Pelranius »

Stas Bush wrote:I'm not holding any grudges, Edi.

Personally the whole war is a huge mess, and most people in Russia wish that it ends sooner, since our soldiers from the SFPC are dying because of some local ambitions of smaller nations.

Most of the leaders there are nationalist assholes, from Abkhazia to Georgia proper. It's the people who get to suffer for military actions.

The whole thing just looks like Nagorny Karabach 2.0, and that's certainly not something anyone in Russia wants. :(

Also yes, I live in Russia and I actually can be sent to the warzone, unlike most people speaking in this thread. I can also say that in this case I would take arms and do my duty. However, so far I have not been called upon.
What branch would you serve in, if you don't mind me asking?

This whole business sounds like those wonderful little Balkan or Latin American disputes that happened a century ago. I sincerely pray that this is not the case.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:I'm not holding any grudges, Edi.

Personally the whole war is a huge mess, and most people in Russia wish that it ends sooner, since our soldiers from the SFPC are dying because of some local ambitions of smaller nations.

Most of the leaders there are nationalist assholes, from Abkhazia to Georgia proper. It's the people who get to suffer for military actions.

The whole thing just looks like Nagorny Karabach 2.0, and that's certainly not something anyone in Russia wants. :(

Also yes, I live in Russia and I actually can be sent to the warzone, unlike most people speaking in this thread. I can also say that in this case I would take arms and do my duty. However, so far I have not been called upon.
I thought, assuming the Belorussian I talked to is up to date, that you could escape service if you had a university degree? Though in wartime I guess it doesn't matter.
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Post by Broomstick »

Can we quickly recap for those who might not care to re-read 15 pages?

Please correct anything I get wrong.

Georgia has a district/region called South Ossetia with a separatist movement that has apparently been supported by Russia involvement. Russia sent troops called peacekeepers into South Ossetia. Georgia started shelling/bombing South Ossetia's capital and took out some, all, or most of the Russia troops, along with destroying buildings and killing/injuring civilians. Casualities in South Ossetia number in the thousands, though personally I am unclear how many are Russia troops vs. civilians. Perhaps no one really knows at this point.

Well, the Russians came to the aid of the South Ossetians, some/many of whom hold Russia citizenship, plus of course their peacekeepers. Small scale war ensued. Georgia had their asses handed to them. Half the Georgian navy was sunk. The Russians are conducting aerial bombing raids. Georgia, now losing, has retreated and is now asking for a cease fire. Apparently the Russians aren't done shooting/bombing yet.

The West - US/Europe/NATO - is apparently siding with Georgia, but at this point it is calls for calm, a cease-fire, and scolding Russia rather than anyone wanting to wade into the mess. I have heard reports of Russia entering Georgia proper, but last I heard this was unconfirmed.

Have I got that right so far?

Alright, can anyone answer this question for an American who is not conversant with the history here - why the fuck did Georgia decide to attack a city and target Russian troops? I mean, yes, attempting to unify a nation by starting a conflict with an outside enemy can work, but the balance of power here is so lopsided you have to wonder what the hell we're they smokin' at the time they decided this was a good idea. I'm sure there was SOME rationale for this (and the timing, with everyone watching the Olympics, probably was deliberate) but I'm just not getting it. Yes, yes, nations try to suppress rebellions and break-aways, but this was a really clumsy way to go about it, especially since there had been 20 years or so without open shooting conflict. Seriously, what the fuck? The US, arguably still the world's strongest military, would hesitate to go to war with Russia (that was the Cold War, after all - how to avoid a shooting conflict with the USSR which was very much dominated by Russia) what the hell was Georgia thinking?

I'm also seeing some parallels between Iraq invading Kuwait and the forces coming to aid Kuwait driving all the way to Bagdad and the Russians aiding South Ossetia possibly driving all the way to Tbilisi. Of course, there are significant differences as well, such as Kuwait unquestionably being recognized internationally as a sovereign state and a multi-national coalition riding to Kuwait's aid rather than a strictly unilateral deal.

There was also a brief comparison with the Republic of Texas earlier - Texas was split from Mexico by Americans who moved there with the frank intention of taking over the territory for a variety of reasons. Texas split away, formed an independent republic, then joined the US (although I understand there are still lingering resentments and conflicts between Anglo and Hispanic Texans, just not much killing over it these days). Again, there are differences, but there seems to be similarities as well with the South Ossetia position. Are there other such circumstances in history I am not aware of?
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Post by PeZook »

I thought, assuming the Belorussian I talked to is up to date, that you could escape service if you had a university degree? Though in wartime I guess it doesn't matter.
No, you just get moved to the reserves, which means you can get called up to fight in a time of war.

You can only "escape service" with a degree in the sense that you don't have to do the 12 months (or however long it takes in Russia now) in peacetime.

Though to be honest, university educated folks would most probably end up in the support branches, since most of those people are moved to the reserves with no basic training at all, meaning that any units created out of them would be completely worthless in combat ;)
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Let's do some notes.

1) Georgia has a region called South Ossetia which is for 15 years not controlled by Georgia, and Russian forces are stationed in the area for the same amount of time. It was not supported actively until Georgia suddenly turned anti-Russian and expelled Russian military bases. This resulted in state political and PR support for Abkhazia and S.Ossetia as the sole regions where Russian military bases remain, as part of the Peacekeeper forces.

2) Georgia attacked South Ossetia's capital of Tshinvali during the start of the Olympics and also co-incidentally with the time when Medvedev and most of Russia's administration are on vacation (mid-August).

3) Their attack was overwhelmingly successful, since it was massive and done in a surprise fashion. They managed to take over Tshinvali (the Russian forces rolled back) and the only corridor from S.Ossetia to N.Ossetia, effectively conquering it.

4) Russian government kinda napped, but awakened a bit later when the situation became clear, and within meaningful response time, attacked the Georgian positions in S.Ossetia near Tshinvali and the rear bases in Gori, at the same time pressing back into Tshinvali with the Army units deployed from North Caucasus.

5) Only a few rocket boats (1 definetely confirmed) was sunk. But apparently this is half of the Georgian Navy :lol: the Red Banner Black Sea Fleet folks reported only 4 battle-worthy rocket boats engaging them, so I guess... :lol:

6) Russia did not enter Georgia, but it bombed military objects of the "2nd echelon" meaning bases and military districts, in the towns and villages of Georgia.

7) Medvedev said Russian troops will not enter Georgia, but instead remain confined to S.Ossetia, but they will subdue with bombardment any forces firing at them.

8) Russia does not accept Georgia's ceasefire because apparently some units remain in vinicity of Tshinvaly and still are firing and shelling the city. Maybe it s a bad chain of command problem in Georgia, maybe - "informantion warfare" stunt.
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Post by PeZook »

Stas Bush wrote: 8) Russia does not accept Georgia's ceasefire because apparently some units remain in vinicity of Tshinvaly and still are firing and shelling the city. Maybe it s a bad chain of command problem in Georgia, maybe - "informantion warfare" stunt.
I'm guessing Ossetia is a huge mess right now, so it's not totally inconceivable that some ground commanders didn't hear about the unilateral ceasefire. Russia is in total control of the airspace, after all, and I'd imagine they have vast superiority in EW, too.
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Post by RogueIce »

Stas Bush wrote:Let's do some notes.

1) Georgia has a region called South Ossetia which is for 15 years not controlled by Georgia, and Russian forces are stationed in the area for the same amount of time. It was not supported actively until Georgia suddenly turned anti-Russian and expelled Russian military bases. This resulted in state political and PR support for Abkhazia and S.Ossetia as the sole regions where Russian military bases remain, as part of the Peacekeeper forces.
Why were the peacekeepers there, anyway? I heard something of a UN mandate. Did they have that or were they there simply because Russia wanted them to be?

As for the whole thing, I'm not clear. Did they have peacekeepers or other units in places other than South Ossetia and Abkhazia before Georgia expelled them? Or did Georgia say they wanted the Russians gone totally and they didn't comply? Could you clear that up?
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Just an image.
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Why were the peacekeepers there, anyway? I heard something of a UN mandate. Did they have that or were they there simply because Russia wanted them to be?
They had a UN Mandate - more than that, OSCE stated that both Georgia and S. Ossetia have a right to territorial intergrity and self-administration, with S. Ossetia explicitly defined as the territory in the borders of the former SO Autonomous region.
Did they have peacekeepers or other units in places other than South Ossetia and Abkhazia before Georgia expelled them?
We had military bases, but PCs were only in Ossetia and Abkhazia since they had a UN Mandate for up to 20,000 people or so.
Or did Georgia say they wanted the Russians gone totally and they didn't comply? Could you clear that up?
Georgia expelled all Russian military bases in Georgia proper, but could not do so in Abkhazia and Ossetia. Due to a murky status, it posed problems for NATO appliance.

Maybe that clears things up ;)
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Post by phongn »

Looks like the US is flying the Georgian troops in Iraq back.
International Herald Tribune wrote: US begins flying Georgian troops home from Iraq

The Associated Press
Sunday, August 10, 2008

BAGHDAD: The U.S. military began flying 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq on Sunday, military officials said, after the Georgians recalled the soldiers following the outbreak of fighting with Russia in the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

The decision was a timely payback for the former Soviet republic that has been a staunch U.S. supporter and agreed to send troops to Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition.

Georgia was the third-largest contributor of coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain, and most of its troops were stationed near the Iranian border in southeastern Iraq.

The U.S. military has played down concerns about the redeployment, saying it may have "some impact" in the near term but no significant long-term effect on Iraq's security.

"We want to thank them for the great support they've given the coalition and we wish them well," military spokesman Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll said earlier Sunday at a news conference.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, had asked the U.S. military on Friday to provide transportation.

"We are supporting the Georgian military units that are in Iraq in their redeployment to Georgia so that they can support requirements there during the current security situation," said Col. Jerry O'Hara, another military spokesman in Baghdad. "Flights have in fact begun today and Georgian forces are redeploying."

He declined to disclose flight details. But another senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information, said the military would fly the troops back "to the republic of Georgia.

The officials also said American units had been shuffled in their area of responsibility to compensate for the departure of the Georgians.

O'Hara said that even though the loss of forces was unexpected, "we can and are accommodating the changes."

Most Georgian troops moved last year from the relatively safe Green Zone in Baghdad to an area southeast of the capital to help interdict supplies allegedly being smuggled to Shiite extremists from Iran. More than 100 remained in Baghdad to help secure the Green Zone.

At least five Georgians soldiers have died in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

Some Iraqis welcomed the Georgian withdrawal, saying they're tired of the presence of U.S-led foreign troops.

"God willing, not only the Georgian forces will withdraw but all other troops will leave our country and security and stability will come back to our land," Baghdad resident Ghada Adnan told Associated Press Television News.

Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes.

In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, began overwhelming bombing and shelling attacks against Georgia and Georgian troops.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Won't it take nearly a week of non-stop flying to get 2000 people back, along with their equipment, or do they have their equipment back in Georgia?

Though it seems, the Iraqis are glad to see them gone, which is hardly a big surprise.
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Post by Aaron »

Darksider wrote:
So the russian's response to Georgian troops using civillian vehicles is to blast everything in sight?

Yes, that will certainly alleviate western fear of russia.

God dammit. Why can't anyone fight a war in a civilized fasion anymore. Why do they always have to involve civillians?
Look I hate to break it to you but in a war when the enemy starts using civvie vehicles than you start targeting civvie vehicles. Why do you think that NATO vehicles have huge signs on the back in Afghanistan warning the locals to stay back?
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

PeZook wrote:
Stas Bush wrote: 8) Russia does not accept Georgia's ceasefire because apparently some units remain in vinicity of Tshinvaly and still are firing and shelling the city. Maybe it s a bad chain of command problem in Georgia, maybe - "informantion warfare" stunt.
I'm guessing Ossetia is a huge mess right now, so it's not totally inconceivable that some ground commanders didn't hear about the unilateral ceasefire. Russia is in total control of the airspace, after all, and I'd imagine they have vast superiority in EW, too.
That isn't really reported in US news. I guess there's a definite deliberate misreporting huh.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Well, today Russia lost another 3 peacekeepers to GRAD MRLS fire, that doesn't look like everyone got the "ceasefire" part.

However, Medvedev and Putin both state that the "mission is mostly accomplished", "the forces will not move further than S.Ossetia" and "soon the mission would be complete". The General Staff reports that Georgian army units have been encircled down by Tskhinvali outskirts and are surrendering.

The Abkhazian Kodori Gorge meanwhile: apparently a large group of Georgian military units were encircled, and now are offered a "lay down arms" ultimatum, or be destroyed.

Seriously, I wonder what Georgia really wanted to achieve. The victim card? It won't help to restore their military infrastructure or anything. Perhaps if Ossetia was swiftly captured and no Russian troops managed to cross over the Roki Tonnel, Georgia could "negotiate" a ceasefire on it's own terms.

But that was really a fool's gamble.
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CaptHawkeye
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

Stas Bush wrote:
Seriously, I wonder what Georgia really wanted to achieve. The victim card? It won't help to restore their military infrastructure or anything. Perhaps if Ossetia was swiftly captured and no Russian troops managed to cross over the Roki Tonnel, Georgia could "negotiate" a ceasefire on it's own terms.

But that was really a fool's gamble.
Ah I see. They have an Imperial Japan complex. "Make such a great first effort that the big guy won't even feel like fighting back." Too bad that never works.
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Vympel
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Post by Vympel »

Ubiquitous wrote: Pretty scary stuff. Thankfully, the Russian pilot had shit accuracy.
He would have to be super-human to hit a small group of "infantry" with the equipment at his disposal in a standard Su-25. S-8 rockets just aren't intended to hit a target that small, and he only fired three, which is probably all he had time for during his run. You'd need more than that to guarantee kills against such a small group.
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PeZook
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Post by PeZook »

Stas Bush wrote: But that was really a fool's gamble.
It was a fool's gamble mostly because taking the tunnel doesn't stop Russia from bombing the shit out of Georgia if you piss it off enough, and of course Russia could just try and take it right back. It's not like they don't have a huge assortment of various special forces, including paratroopers with some ridiculously heavy equipment.

In fact, a single VDV division has equal numbers to a significant portion of the Georgian military.

I'm back to my prior assessment: Saakashvili is a complete idiot.
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Post by Coyote »

I think Georgia was expecting the US/West to ride in, force a cease-fire in place, probably bog things down in the UN or something and give the Georgians time to consolidate. Basically, they expected a less-robust Russian response, and a more-robust Western one.

Whoops.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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