Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[VT-16]

I guess the only upside is an increased approach towards EU and NATO membership now? There's nowhere else for Georgia to turn to after the war is over and they need to rebuild.

[Kane Starkiller]

Georgians sent 2000 troops to support the USA in Iraq and when they needed help what does US/NATO do? A big nothing. I would say NATO looks pretty goddamn useless in the eyes of Georgian people and government right now.

[VT-16]

NATO maybe, but I'd say there would be some elements who'd appreciate being part of some kind of organization/union that's far removed from Russia right about now. :P

[Coyote]

There'll be some serious re-evaluations of Georgia on our part, too-- in a way, the timing is fortuitous, for GW Bush is in no position to help out much now that he has less than 100 days left before decision time (felt good typing that out) and the new President will have the chance to see what a "key ally" Georgia is, all champing at the bit for an ethnic-enclave war on the southern tip of Russia.

It's hard to blame Russia for feeling encircled, watching the map change colors over time. Sometimes it seems like NATO and Russia are like two kids in the back seat of a car on a long road trip, with the NATO kid constantly holding his finger a millimeter from the Russia kid, saying, "I'm not touching yoooouuu!"

In a funny world, Russia would just join NATO and the EU, have open-border access to all their trade partners, and essentially begin the road towards peaceful dominance through trade and energy. It'd also give the Chinese a pucker factor. Oh, well.

[Vympel]

NATO's not interested in Georgia, never were. And even if they were, all Georgian hopes of joining NATO are most assuredly gone forever. If Georgia had been a member of NATO like Bush wanted a few months ago, then the'd have been obliged to go to war with Russia over this. No fucking way would they put themselves in such a ridiculous position.

Georgia can go to blazes, for all they care, and rightfully so.

[Darth Wong]

Georgians sent 2000 troops to support the USA in Iraq and when they needed help what does US/NATO do? A big nothing. I would say NATO looks pretty goddamn useless in the eyes of Georgian people and government right now.

Iraq was a US operation, not a NATO one. Do not confuse the issue, fucktard.

[Darth Wong]

Watching CNN on the weekend, it was easy to get the impression that the Russians started this conflict, not the Georgians.

Of course, they only covered it when they weren't covering what they called "the big story of the weekend", which was John Edwards admitting he had sex with someone outside his marriage.

[Kane Starkiller]

Iraq was a US operation, not a NATO one. Do not confuse the issue, fucktard.

Don't be silly. No one looking for military support joins NATO because of Belgium and Netherlands. They join because US is there and because NATO support really means US support.

[Darth Wong]

Iraq was a US operation, not a NATO one. Do not confuse the issue, fucktard.

Don't be silly. No one looking for military support joins NATO because of Belgium and Netherlands. They join because US is there and because NATO support really means US support.

And this has precisely nothing to do with Iraq, moron. Get it, tard? Going to Iraq had NOTHING to do with NATO, because Iraq was not a NATO operation. Georgia tried to ingratiate themselves directly with the US, believing in the American rhetoric that America repays its friends. Anyone who studies history knows how ridiculous this is; if America has no treaty obligations (and sometimes even if it does), it will gleefully shit all over a country that has befriended it in the past.

Saying that NATO looks bad for not rewarding a country's participation in Iraq is top-level idiocy. Period.

[Coyote]

If Georgia had been a member of NATO like Bush wanted a few months ago, then the'd have been obliged to go to war with Russia over this.

Would they? If a NATO member launches an aggressive war on someone else, the alliance is under no obligation to come running... are they?

That'd be a stupid alliance if it were the case...

[Coyote]

Of course, they only covered it when they weren't covering what they called "the big story of the weekend", which was John Edwards admitting he had sex with someone outside his marriage.

2 years ago, even.

Yeah, we have... 3 major wars, an economic crisis, an energy crisis, environmental deterioration, and the Olympics. Oh, no, there's nothing much to talk about at all.

I hate US "news". I actually get more useful news & info ...right here, actually.

[Kane Starkiller]

Saying that NATO looks bad for not rewarding a country's participation in Iraq is top-level idiocy. Period.

I never said that. I said that "US/NATO" looks useless in the eyes of Georgia. I never made any moral judgment about NATO's action or inaction. And yes for all intents and purposes US is NATO. If US refuses to help Georgia you can be sure no other NATO country will have the means or the will. I'm not saying that's good or bad it's simply how things are.

[Vympel]

Would they? If a NATO member launches an aggressive war on someone else, the alliance is under no obligation to come running... are they?

The problem is the definition of "someone else". South Ossetia isn't a recognized sovereign state, it's considered part of Georgia. Accordingly, Georgia could invoke Article 5 on the basis that Russia was attacking them, never mind the actual situation.

Anyway, the issue of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are precisely the reason why NATO balked at allowing Georgia membership. That was Bush's stupid idea, luckily he's not The Decider of NATO.

Unfortunately, the fact that Georgia was America's darling in the Caucasus probably had an effect on Georgia's decision making process. To their extreme detriment.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Saying that NATO looks bad for not rewarding a country's participation in Iraq is top-level idiocy. Period.

I never said that. I said that "US/NATO" looks useless in the eyes of Georgia. I never made any moral judgment about NATO's action or inaction. And yes for all intents and purposes US is NATO. If US refuses to help Georgia you can be sure no other NATO country will have the means or the will. I'm not saying that's good or bad it's simply how things are.

Why should Nato, excepting another unilateral action by the US, do anything? There are no treaty obligations whatsoever. Any attempt by Nato to get involved would have wider problems.

The Georgian President can go blame Nato and use the news media to go ahead with his whining about the lack of Nato support, and obviously the nationalist fucktards would buy it, but at the end of the day, Nato has no obligations to do anything whatsoever.

[Glocksman]

Of course, they only covered it when they weren't covering what they called "the big story of the weekend", which was John Edwards admitting he had sex with someone outside his marriage.

2 years ago, even.

Yeah, we have... 3 major wars, an economic drisis, an energy crisis, environmental deterioration, and the Olympics. Oh, no, there's nothing much to talk about at all.

I hate US "news". I actually get more useful news & info ...right here, actually.

Between SD.net, the Beeb, and a few other sites, I get more real news in a day than I get in a week of reading/watching the traditional US media outlets.

We won't even mention Fox 'News'.

[Coyote]

Unfortunately, the fact that Georgia was America's darling in the Caucasus probably had an effect on Georgia's decision making process. To their extreme detriment.

US Policy has been, obviously, to push east so we have bases in striking range of the Middle East and Iran... pulling out of Germany (which is far to the "rear", now, and expensive) and going to places like, well... Georgia, where the eceonomy is brittle at best and the prescence of an American base can easily dominate the social and political landscape.

Especially after Turkey proved to be "leass than accomodating" in the lead-up to the 2003 war.

Bush would have loved to have Georgia-- parked at Iran's border-- be an un-assailable land-based aircraft carrier to strike at the Ayatollahs. Iran would (maybe) hesistate to strike back, since it would mean bringing all of Europe in.

That and having a strategic eye on all the gas & oil crap around the Caspian.

There are very good reasons for an imperial US to be interested in Georgia, none of which really benefit anyone else. A US more interested in brokering deals and being respectful of others' needs and backyards would have no need to get its hackles up over Georgia, of all places.

[CaptainChewbacca]

So, my morning radio said Russian troops had crossed from SO into neighboring Georgia. Any truth to that?

Also, is it Oh-see-shuh, Oh-set-tee-uh, or Oh-set-tia?

[Kane Starkiller]

Why should Nato, excepting another unilateral action by the US, do anything?

Again it's not about whether they should. NATO can't do anything without US. That's the point. If US makes it clear it won't help you beyond token protest joining NATO looses it's appeal and forces you to rethink your relationship with Russia namely seek accommodation with it.

[Darth Wong]

And yes for all intents and purposes US is NATO.

No it's not, and you're an idiot. The fact that the US is NATO's biggest partner does not mean you can regard NATO as an extension of the US, which is what you're doing. Once more: Iraq has NOTHING to do with NATO. Whatsoever.

[Crown]

First off, let me just say that this thread delivers.

Second; Broomstick and Illuminatus Primus could you two please, for the love of Xenu lay the fuck off Marina about the whole 'Russian heritage' schtick? There are an entire plethora of arguments she's advocating that you could butt heads over, but frankly I support Marina 100% on the issue as to whether or not she was 'demeaning' or 'disavowing' any of Broomstick's heritage.

As a neutral third party observer Marina was not saying that as either a Russian peasant or a Jew in Russia your grandparents wouldn't have had it hard (euphamism on my part), she just took what would be the 'worst case' scenario (in this case being a peasant Jew in Tzarist Russia) and said she could very well understand why anyone from that era, in that position, wouldn't hold any love for it and that they were exaclty in their rights.

I understand that after the scream-fest that has gone by it my be hard for you to recant this position Broomstick but believe me, as someone who has a long, very public history of disagreeing with Marina on pertty much every issue under the Sun (and more than a few above it), as someone that has no reason to defend her or argue her case, your feelings of slight are magnified by an erroneous misunderstanding. Let it go.

[Kane Starkiller]

No it's not, and you're an idiot. The fact that the US is NATO's biggest partner does not mean you can regard NATO as an extension of the US, which is what you're doing. Once more: Iraq has NOTHING to do with NATO. Whatsoever.

Of course I can regard NATO as an extension of US. Or perhaps you can point me to a military conflict where troops from other NATO countries did not participate as an extension (a light one) of the core US forces.
Or to put it another way: every time NATO acts it does so as an extension of the US, when it doesn't act (like in Iraq) then it doesn't matter and it's useless either way.

[Broomstick]

Won't it take nearly a week of non-stop flying to get 2000 people back, along with their equipment, or do they have their equipment back in Georgia?

Why would it take a week to get 2000 people back to Georgia?

It does, of course, depend on what they're using to fly them back, but a couple of big transports should get the job done quickly. Let's face it, it's a convenient way for the US to say "We support Georgia" without actually getting involved in a fight. I presume the Russia military will have an eye on those jets and will make sure no unfortunate incidents occur - regardless of differences the US and Russia do NOT want a war with each other.

[Broomstick]

Second; Broomstick and Illuminatus Primus could you two please, for the love of Xenu lay the fuck off Marina about the whole 'Russian heritage' schtick?

I've shut up about it. My last post about it was several pages ago. I apologized for what I actually thought I should apologize for with the words "I apologize for the misinterpreting your words". Why are YOU bringing it up again?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Won't it take nearly a week of non-stop flying to get 2000 people back, along with their equipment, or do they have their equipment back in Georgia?

Why would it take a week to get 2000 people back to Georgia?

If you are talking about 2000 people alone, that's easy.

But if you are talking about 2000 people, plus IFVs and other equipment, one then has to commit a number of transports to transport the whole lot over. Optimistically, 3 days round the clock flying?

[Crown]

Second; Broomstick and Illuminatus Primus could you two please, for the love of Xenu lay the fuck off Marina about the whole 'Russian heritage' schtick?

I've shut up about it. My last post was several pages ago, why are YOU bringing it up again?

Because you acted poorly, wrongly and un-becoming your more level headed posting habit... And I stopped reading around then. Why, should I have to justify trying to right a wrong anyway?