Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Bounty]

Looks like Russia isn't ready to take its toys and go home yet:

Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening.

Moscow said it had launched a raid on the town of Senaki to stop Georgia from attacking Russian forces in South Ossetia, another breakaway region.

As the fighting continued in South Ossetia, foreign envoys were pressing for a ceasefire in the conflict.

Each side accuses the other of carrying out atrocities in the region.

Fighting in South Ossetia erupted late last week when Georgia launched an overnight assault on the territory.

Russia, which supports the province's bid for separation, then bombed targets throughout Georgia and moved troops into the region and into Abkhazia.

On Monday EU envoys were attempting to broker an agreement between Tbilisi and Moscow.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili signed an EU-backed ceasefire, but the document was rejected by Moscow.

And leaders from both countries carried on a war of words, with Russia accusing Georgia of genocide, and President Saakashvili hitting back with claims of ethnic cleansing.

[Broomstick]

Second; Broomstick and Illuminatus Primus could you two please, for the love of Xenu lay the fuck off Marina about the whole 'Russian heritage' schtick?

I've shut up about it. My last post was several pages ago, why are YOU bringing it up again?

Because you acted poorly, wrongly and un-becoming your more level headed posting habit... And I stopped reading around then. Why, should I have to justify trying to right a wrong anyway?

I apologized already. Shut the fuck up about it - that's what you want, isn't it?

On Edit: The apology post is on Page 14 - I tried linking directly to it since you apparently have "stopped reading" the thread but wasn't able to do so.

This is my VERY LAST POST on that particular matter.

[TheMuffinKing]

US Helps Georgians return from Iraq



By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writer Sun Aug 10, 12:48 PM ET

BAGHDAD - The U.S. military began flying 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq on Sunday, military officials said, after the Georgians recalled the soldiers following the outbreak of fighting with Russia in the breakaway province of South Ossetia.
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The decision was a timely payback for the former Soviet republic that has been a staunch U.S. supporter and agreed to send troops to Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition.

Georgia was the third-largest contributor of coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain, and most of its troops were stationed near the Iranian border in southeastern Iraq.

The U.S. military has played down concerns about the redeployment, saying it may have "some impact" in the near term but no significant long-term effect on Iraq's security.

"We want to thank them for the great support they've given the coalition and we wish them well," military spokesman Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll said earlier Sunday at a news conference.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, had asked the U.S. military on Friday to provide transportation.

"We are supporting the Georgian military units that are in Iraq in their redeployment to Georgia so that they can support requirements there during the current security situation," said Col. Jerry O'Hara, another military spokesman in Baghdad. "Flights have in fact begun today and Georgian forces are redeploying."

He declined to disclose flight details. But another senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information, said the military would fly the troops back "to the republic of Georgia.

The officials also said American units had been shuffled in their area of responsibility to compensate for the departure of the Georgians.

O'Hara said that even though the loss of forces was unexpected, "we can and are accommodating the changes."

Most Georgian troops moved last year from the relatively safe Green Zone in Baghdad to an area southeast of the capital to help interdict supplies allegedly being smuggled to Shiite extremists from Iran. More than 100 remained in Baghdad to help secure the Green Zone.

At least five Georgians soldiers have died in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

Some Iraqis welcomed the Georgian withdrawal, saying they're tired of the presence of U.S-led foreign troops.

"God willing, not only the Georgian forces will withdraw but all other troops will leave our country and security and stability will come back to our land," Baghdad resident Ghada Adnan told Associated Press Television News.

Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes.

In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, began overwhelming bombing and shelling attacks against Georgia and Georgian troops.




Just saw this on Yahoo.

[Coyote]

I hope we just leave it at that... but I have a feeling that Bush isn't done being a cock yet.

Anyone else feel like they'd better start stockpiling food & water?

[Ender]

I was away for the weekend and only gt info about this from Verizon and the Tribune this morning. Holy shit the coverage has me livid. The news updates on my phone claimed Russia launched the artillery strike killing 1500 Georgians, and the Trib today is ranting about Russia' unchecked aggression against a US ally, at one point stating it doesn't matter who started it. THis isn't just shitty reporting, this is flat out lying.

[Darth Wong]

I was away for the weekend and only gt info about this from Verizon and the Tribune this morning. Holy shit the coverage has me livid. The news updates on my phone claimed Russia launched the artillery strike killing 1500 Georgians, and the Trib today is ranting about Russia' unchecked aggression against a US ally, at one point stating it doesn't matter who started it. THis isn't just shitty reporting, this is flat out lying.

Wow. US media being hopelessly dishonest in order to mindlessly follow their president's lead. How unprecedented.

This is the media that your countrymen want. It may not be what YOU want, but that's the sad reality of it.

[TheMuffinKing]

Does anyone know what Georgian forces are in Iraq? If they are primarily infantry then they could be home really fast.

[Coyote]

I was away for the weekend and only gt info about this from Verizon and the Tribune this morning. Holy shit the coverage has me livid. The news updates on my phone claimed Russia launched the artillery strike killing 1500 Georgians, and the Trib today is ranting about Russia' unchecked aggression against a US ally, at one point stating it doesn't matter who started it. THis isn't just shitty reporting, this is flat out lying.

"Remember the Maine", bro.

Bush wanted a conflict so his boy McCain could slide into the Oval Office on "foreign policy cred". If the Iran one won't do, he'll gladly take the one that's delivered by way of Georgia. After all, this war isn't "his fault", dontchaknow.

To quote an old favorite around here: "I have a bad feeling about this".

[The Duchess of Zeon]

First off, let me just say that this thread delivers. :mrgreen:

Second; Broomstick and Illuminatus Primus could you two please, for the love of Xenu lay the fuck off Marina about the whole 'Russian heritage' schtick? There are an entire plethora of arguments she's advocating that you could butt heads over, but frankly I support Marina 100% on the issue as to whether or not she was 'demeaning' or 'disavowing' any of Broomstick's heritage.

As a neutral third party observer Marina was not saying that as either a Russian peasant or a Jew in Russia your grandparents wouldn't have had it hard (euphamism on my part), she just took what would be the 'worst case' scenario (in this case being a peasant Jew in Tzarist Russia) and said she could very well understand why anyone from that era, in that position, wouldn't hold any love for it and that they were exaclty in their rights.

I understand that after the scream-fest that has gone by it my be hard for you to recant this position Broomstick but believe me, as someone who has a long, very public history of disagreeing with Marina on pertty much every issue under the Sun (and more than a few above it), as someone that has no reason to defend her or argue her case, your feelings of slight are magnified by an erroneous misunderstanding. Let it go.

I don't know why the fucking hell anyone would think a noted Turkophile (as you know me well) would also be a supporter of the Russian Empire, anyway--the two are probably the most opposite political positions known on the planet.

..I suppose my love of the Ottoman Empire is, in fact, a bit toward the purpose of tweaking the noses of my family, too. *smiles lazily* We don't get along.

[Coyote]

Oh, Marina, you also have a soft spot for the whole Austro-Hungarian thing, too.

The Ottomans and the AHE... like Batman and Joker, they complete each other.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Oh, Marina, you also have a soft spot for the whole Austro-Hungarian thing, too.

The Ottomans and the AHE... like Batman and Joker, they complete each other. :D

They also NEEDED each other, especially in the later years, to keep a lid on the ethnic tensions of the Balkans.

God, that place should have never become independent; I fucking hate Wilson.

[irishmick79]

So what kind of worthwhile intelligence and military hardware could the US offer Georgia at this point if they're not going do anything more substantial than wag a finger at Russia? I imagine that the US would at least be giving Georgia some sort of support at this point, or planning to. What kind of things could the US provide that would be most useful to Georgia (other than Marines).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I was away for the weekend and only gt info about this from Verizon and the Tribune this morning. Holy shit the coverage has me livid. The news updates on my phone claimed Russia launched the artillery strike killing 1500 Georgians, and the Trib today is ranting about Russia' unchecked aggression against a US ally, at one point stating it doesn't matter who started it. THis isn't just shitty reporting, this is flat out lying.

"Remember the Maine", bro.

Bush wanted a conflict so his boy McCain could slide into the Oval Office on "foreign policy cred". If the Iran one won't do, he'll gladly take the one that's delivered by way of Georgia. After all, this war isn't "his fault", dontchaknow. :?

To quote an old favorite around here: "I have a bad feeling about this".

I don't believe that Bush is going to start a thermonuclear war over Georgia. And I'd like to believe that the military has been kicked around enough by him by this point to refuse the orders and arrest him if he did.

Even with the reduced Russian arsenal I'll be dead at the same instant as the initial strikes here. Kind of an irritating way to go. Well, if only those dumbfucks hadn't eliminated the early warning systems, given 90 minutes and driving like a lunatic I could probably get shielded, and I do have a gas mask with good cartridges to deal with the post-attack fallout.

Don't worry, though, if it did go hot there'd be nukes falling on Boise before you got mobilized.

I'm no longer willing to believe that Bush isn't this fucking completely insane.

[Kane Starkiller]

I don't see why people are worried US might send troops into Georgia. US and Russia danced this dance many times before: Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan. It never led to a nuclear war.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So what kind of worthwhile intelligence and military hardware could the US offer Georgia at this point if they're not going do anything more substantial than wag a finger at Russia? I imagine that the US would at least be giving Georgia some sort of support at this point, or planning to. What kind of things could the US provide that would be most useful to Georgia (other than Marines).

Satellite intelligence, tanks. It would take to long to train them to use aircraft, though I understand we bought a bunch of Moldovian Mig-29s we have sitting around in the desert somewhere; they might be able to handle those. Give them some UAVs, too. The problem is ammunition, with the Russians blockading the ports, everything has to come through Turkey that isn't going to be shot down by the Russians--this is my biggest fear, that a couple Military Airlift Command transports are going to get shot down by the Russian Air Force while flying those Georgian troops back to Georgia. In fact, it's been my mortal terror since this thing started, and I didn't think we were motherfucking stupid enough to agree to it. That could send the world onto a course for nuclear war within a couple of days.

I really can't believe that fucking ape did this. Sending in our USAF airlift birds into this situation is a recipe for the highest level of nuclear tension in the world since the KAL-007 shootdown, short of Wesley Clark's fuck-ass proposed attack on Russian peacekeepers in Serbia back during the Kosovo war, where it's reputed that Yeltsin had authorized the use of tactical nuclear weapons. Now that we've committed to do that, I'd find the military terminally stupid if it hasn't already made quiet preparations for rearming some of the strategic bombers with nukes and putting them on ready alert.

[Darth Wong]

No it's not, and you're an idiot. The fact that the US is NATO's biggest partner does not mean you can regard NATO as an extension of the US, which is what you're doing. Once more: Iraq has NOTHING to do with NATO. Whatsoever.

Of course I can regard NATO as an extension of US.

Sure you can. You can also believe that the world is flat if you like. That doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

Or perhaps you can point me to a military conflict where troops from other NATO countries did not participate as an extension (a light one) of the core US forces.

Iraq. Panama. Grenada.

Or to put it another way: every time NATO acts it does so as an extension of the US, when it doesn't act (like in Iraq) then it doesn't matter and it's useless either way.

Bullshit. NATO was not the US's lapdog during the Kosovo situation. Instead, the US agreed to participate. A lot of Americans were very unhappy about the war, and many accused Clinton of getting involved just to distract from domestic political problems. Does that sound like "an extension of the US" to you? As stated previously, you're an idiot.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't see why people are worried US might send troops into Georgia. US and Russia danced this dance many times before: Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan. It never led to a nuclear war.

None of those involved us sending our aircraft in direct overflights of a Russian Army combat zone in which frontal aviation is roaming around with weapons free orders. What do you think would have happened if we'd started sending C-141s over Afghanistan and dropping supplies to the Afghanis?

[Straha]

Seriously, I wonder what Georgia really wanted to achieve. The victim card? It won't help to restore their military infrastructure or anything. Perhaps if Ossetia was swiftly captured and no Russian troops managed to cross over the Roki Tonnel, Georgia could "negotiate" a ceasefire on it's own terms.

But that was really a fool's gamble.

Not really if you think about it. Tensions over Ossetia have been rising for the past couple years, and as articles cited earlier in the thread point out Russia has been building up troops on the border for some time. When it became clear to Georgia a couple months ago that, despite Bush's ardent support, they weren't going to become members of NATO probably came to the realization that the lose of Ossetia and Abkhazia were forgone conclusions. The longer Georgia waited the more Russia could slip arms, soldiers and support over the border into Ossetia and Abkhazia, irrevocably tipping the scale in Russia's favour.

Georgia's original plan was, probably, that once they were NATO members, they could "subdue a rebellious province" and safely bet that Russia wouldn't be willing to risk war with NATO to intervene. The new plan, based on the premise that if they didn't intervene now they would never get the chance to do it again, probably figured that with Putin out of the country and world media attention elsewhere they could steamroll Ossetia in a day or two. Then as long as Russia delayed its reaction by a couple days the international community would be solidly against any Russian armed intervention into Ossetia. Georgia could then move the playing field to the diplomatic conference room where it could simply stall as long as it wanted to until direct control of South Ossetia by Georgia became status quo. Whereas, if they lose, Russia comes off looking like a thug who overreacted to the world media and Georgia looks like the victim, which is a fair bit more than what they would have had if they'd just sat back and let Russia take Ossetia from them in their eyes.

It's a gamble, yes. But it's a gamble which they had to take if they wanted to have any chance of keeping Ossetia.

[Kane Starkiller]

Sure you can. You can also believe that the world is flat if you like. That doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

Again what capabilities does NATO have to operate without the support of US?

Iraq. Panama. Grenada.

You misunderstood me. I asked for examples of NATO acting without the help of US. Obviously US can act without the help of NATO but not the other way around. Not in any kind of serious military confrontation.

Bullshit. NATO was not the US's lapdog during the Kosovo situation. Instead, the US agreed to participate. A lot of Americans were very unhappy about the war, and many accused Clinton of getting involved just to distract from domestic political problems. Does that sound like "an extension of the US" to you? As stated previously, you're an idiot.

Again you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that NATO is US lapdog in the sense that NATO's members must do whatever US orders them to do. I am saying that NATO is useless without the US. NATO can refuse to act even though US does but it cannot choose to act if US doesn't.

None of those involved us sending our aircraft in direct overflights of a Russian Army combat zone in which frontal aviation is roaming around with weapons free orders. What do you think would have happened if we'd started sending C-141s over Afghanistan and dropping supplies to the Afghanis?

Are you saying US is doing that in Georgia right now?

[Darth Wong]

Again you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that NATO is US lapdog in the sense that NATO's members must do whatever US orders them to do. I am saying that NATO is useless without the US. NATO can refuse to act even though US does but it cannot choose to act if US doesn't.

Then your claim is utterly irrelevant to your original point, which is that NATO looks bad if it doesn't reward friends of the US. That idiotic claim depends on the notion that NATO is indeed a lapdog of the US. It is also irrelevant to your idiotic claim that US/NATO can be regarded as a single indivisible entity. You lose, thanks for playing.

[Kane Starkiller]

Then your claim is utterly irrelevant to your original point, which is that NATO looks bad if it doesn't reward friends of the US. You lose, thanks for playing.

My original response was to VT-16 who said that after Russian intervention Georgia will want to join NATO as soon as possible. I responded that NATO/US inaction made them look useless (not "bad"). Again operating word here useful not morally good.

[Coyote]

So what kind of worthwhile intelligence and military hardware could the US offer Georgia at this point if they're not going do anything more substantial than wag a finger at Russia?...

Satellite intelligence, tanks. It would take to long to train them to use aircraft...

Stinger and other type of anti-aircraft missiles to nullify the Russian air advantage. "It worked in Afghanistan, back in the day, after all..!"

[Coyote]

Some things to bear in mind that might offer insight to how this may play out-- remember that Bush, McCain, and all of Bush's advisors (in particular, Condoleeza Rice) are old-hand Cold Warriors. Condi Rice, remember, is a Soviet Union expert. By intent or not, they will frame this in accordance to the only playbook they know; the only playbook they remember and the one the grew up with that they've had years to think about and make sense of: the Cold War wait for the Big One.

They, and a lot of folks in the decision-making machine, have "fond" memories of the Cold War, because despite the tensions of nuclear annihilation hanging over everyone's head, all the players had an incentive to keep a lid on regional conflicts so noithing brewed over into a nuke-toss. That's why (IMO) we've been forcibly trying to steer China into that position (China won't go for it much since they benefit greatly from freer trade), so here's a chance to put the train back on the track it jumped back in 1992-- big bad mean Russian Bear.

[Darth Wong]

Then your claim is utterly irrelevant to your original point, which is that NATO looks bad if it doesn't reward friends of the US. You lose, thanks for playing.

My original response was to VT-16 who said that after Russian intervention Georgia will want to join NATO as soon as possible. I responded that NATO/US inaction made them look useless (not "bad"). Again operating word here useful not morally good.

So "useless" is not "bad" now?

Unless America brazenly ignores its treaty stipulations, it would have to get involved in any action mandated by the NATO treaty. That doesn't mean it has to get involved in anything that any other NATO member stirs up, but it does provide a measure of protection to NATO members. That's the whole concept of a treaty, moron. And it has absolutely NOTHING to do with helping America in Iraq.

[Broomstick]

I'm not going to quote the whole article because it's long, but it's from the New York Times and seems relatively objective in the reporting for a US outlet.

GORI, Georgia — Russia issued an ultimatum to Georgia on Monday to disarm its troops along the boundary with the pro-Russian separatist enclave of Abkhazia, in a sign that fighting could escalate on a second front in western Georgia.

President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia said its forces had “completed a significant part of the operations to oblige Georgia, the Georgian authorities, to restore peace to South Ossetia,” the pro-Russian enclave in eastern Georgia, according to a transcript of his remarks with Anatoly Serdyukov, the defense minister, on the Kremlin Web site.

Separately, Russia said it was seeking an emergency meeting with NATO to discuss the Georgian crisis.

I think this is a good move in the sense that Russia needs to wrap things up and actually stop shooting at some point. However, if it's a US/NATO/Russia set of discussions where does that leave Georgia, who is not a member of NATO? By starting this fight, Georgia may have set in motion events that leave it marginalized in the world.

The Russian ultimatum, issued by Maj. Gen. Sergei Chaban, commander of Russian peacekeeping forces in Abkhazia, called for Georgian troops to disarm in the Zugdidi District, along the border between Abkhazia and Georgia.

Probably because Russia doesn't want to go through this again in Abkhazia.

Russia has poured extra forces into Abkhazia, where it now has at least 9,000 troops and 350 armored vehicles. Giga Bokeria, a Georgian official close to the president, said the ultimatum raised alarms that Russian troops would now push into Georgian territory in the west of the country. Many Georgian troops have been tied up in fighting farther east near South Ossetia.

Yes, that's certainly a concern, but I read this more as the Russians making sure the Georgians don't start this nonsense on a second front. Naturally, the Georgians will see this as a threat. Yeah, it IS a threat, so don't poke the bear again now that you know he has teeth.

A pivotal question in the conflict, which has involved heavy fighting since late last week, is whether Russia will push beyond these regions and farther into Georgia.

This is also a concern - no one wants this conflict to spread.

The Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, issued a furious denunciation of Russia on Monday, accusing it of “ethnic cleansing” and saying the Kremlin’s actions constituted “the preplanned, cold-blooded, premeditated murder of a small country.”

I'm sorry - Russia hasn't invaded Georgia proper (yet). They are not lining ethnic Georgians up against the wall and executing them. Reports even from pro-Georgian media report the Russians are taking in thousands of refugees. Russia is attacking military targets in Georgia because they're smart enough to know that they can't do this half-assed with one arm tied behind their back, they have to make it clear to Georgia that attacking Russians is a fucking stupid idea.

“What else can happen for the world to wake up and see what’s at stake?” he said during a news conference in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. “Didn’t we have enough experience from the Balkans?”

Yes, it's experience from the Balkans that makes the rest of the world reluctant to get involved in Eastern European conflicts. Experience in the Balkans going back to 1914, I might add, the region has been a problem for a long time.

Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault on its troops by attacking South Ossetia last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. The Kremlin said its actions since then were intended to strike at Georgian military forces that had fired on its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia and it did not intend a broader offensive deeper into Georgia.

The New York Times reports this in more than one place, which I find notable.

However, Georgian officials said that over the weekend Russia had expanded its attacks on Georgia, moving tanks and troops through South Ossetia and advancing toward the city of Gori in the center of the country. That maneuver, and Russian bombing of Tbilisi, seemed to suggest that Russia’s aims in the conflict after four days of fighting had gone beyond securing South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin.

I see weakening the "armed forces of Georgia" as sound military strategy on the part of Russia, as they want to emphasize to Georgia that this was a really bad idea, don't do this shit again.

On Monday, in a conference call with reporters, Mr. Saakashvili said Georgian and Russian troops had fought fierce battles overnight as Russian tanks advanced toward Gori before being driven back, with heavy casualties on both sides. Russian planes also bombed targets across Georgia on Monday, including roads and bridges,

I can't fault the Russians on this, as that sort of tactic is exactly what the US has done in the past, and would do in similar circumstances even if most of my countrymen don't want to understand that.

There was no evidence of bombing in civilian areas of Gori, a major military installation and transportation hub in Georgia. But from high ground, plumes of white smoke and clouds on the outskirts were visible. It was unclear whether the explosions were caused by airstrikes or by shelling.

In other words, the Russians are NOT targeting civilians (though I don't doubt civilians have been killed, as that does happen in war) and are focusing on military targets.

Please keep in mind that the US has NOT shared our more precise targeting technology with anyone, and we still have shit go astray. I have no idea what sort of targeting technology the Russians have, but I doubt it is better than ours. Therefore, I would expect a few bombs to hit in areas they shouldn't, but for the most part what blows up is what is intended to blow up. This report indicates that they're "playing fair" as much as possible in warfare by hitting targets that are considered "military".

However, the Russian Foreign Ministry said it would agree to a cease-fire only if Georgia pulled its troops out of South Ossetia and signed an agreement banning the use of force against the territory.

This sounds entirely reasonable to me.

Mr. Saakashvili has made reuniting Georgia with the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia a centerpiece of his presidency.

Sometimes you should NOT keep your campaign promises.

It would be ironic if he "succeeds" in this by giving the Russians an excuse to unite Georgia with South Ossetia by folding both into Russia - but I think that's an extreme outcome.

On Monday, Abkhaz forces threatened to wipe out Georgian troops if they did not leave the Kodori Gorge, the only area where Georgia has military forces in the contested territory. Abkhaz troops blocked the gorge and proposed the formation of a humanitarian corridor to safely allow Georgian troops and civilians to leave, the Abkhaz defense minister, Mirab Kishmariya, told the Russian news agency Interfax.

“If the Georgian troops don’t take advantage of this opportunity, then an operation to eliminate them will begin,” the minister said.

Wow - that's a warning shot across the bow. Personally, I think Georgian withdrawal might be a good move, but then, I'm not orchestrating any of this. I hope that at least the civilians can get the hell out of the way of this mess.

Two senior Western officials said it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia, but that its aims could go as far as destroying its armed forces or overthrowing Mr. Saakashvili.

While I can't condone removal of a duly elected government, I can certainly understand why Russia would not want someone prone to starting wars in charge of one of their immediate neighbors. Granted, Georgia's capability to hurt Russia is severely limited, but Russia is obligated to protect its borders and destroying the military of an openly hostile neighbor is one means to do so.

The fighting raised tensions between Russia and its former cold war foes to their highest level in decades. President Bush has promoted Georgia as a bastion of democracy, helped strengthen its military and urged that NATO grant the country to membership. Georgia serves as a major conduit for oil flowing from Russia and Central Asia to the West.

The main reason why anyone gives a shit about Georgia at all - the pipeline.

Russia escalated its assault over the weekend despite strong diplomatic warnings from Mr. Bush and European leaders, underscoring the limits of Western influence over Russia at a time when the rest of Europe depends heavily on Russia for natural gas and the United States needs Moscow’s cooperation if it hopes to curtail what it believes is a nuclear weapons threat from Iran.

I think we call that "balance of power" or something of the sort.

Earlier, Vice President Dick Cheney expressed a strong warning for Russia. In a telephone conversation with the Georgian president, he said “that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,” a spokeswoman, Lea Anne McBride, said in a statement released by the White House.

In other words, we really don't like this and we'll say so, but in reality we won't do much of anything because we need Russia support for some of our projects, and Europe needs their oil and gas.

European officials also levied pressure for an immediate cease-fire and President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, which currently holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, could travel to the region as early as Tuesday.

Good, because I really don't want this to turn into a strictly US/Russia conflict precipitated by Georgia being dickheads. A third party could serve a valuable function as mediator.

In a heated exchange with his Russian counterpart at the United Nations, Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad of the United States accused the Kremlin of seeking to oust Mr. Saakashvili.

Yes, I'm sure Russia would like to see Mr. Saakshvili leave government and politics.

In Washington, American officials said that Georgian troops had tried to disengage but that the Russians had not allowed them to

This is why you don't poke the bigger country with a sharp, pointy stick - this shit is a lot easier to start than to stop.

There were no independent observers with either country’s forces, and verifying claims about military activity was not immediately possible.

I think this is a good point to remember - under these circumstances getting unbiased reports would be difficult.

Georgian officials expressed alarm on Sunday that Russia might be aiming to take Gori, about a 45-minute drive south from Tskhinvali. Gori, a major staging area for the Georgian military, sits in a valley that is the main route connecting the east and west halves of Georgia.

In other words, the Russian military is possibily going to target a "major staging area" for the Georgia military? In other words, a military target? Alarming to Georgia, yes, as they are having their asses handed to them, but I don't see where this should be surprising in any way.

Mr. Utiashvili said that if they tried to occupy Georgia, “there will probably be guerrilla warfare all over the country.”

Yes, that's why everyone - including the Russians, as one of our Russian posters has pointed out - want this to wind down and stop as soon as possible.

He said: “We need large supplies of humanitarian aid, because we have thousands of wounded. And weapons. We need weapons.”

How about a box of bandaids and some common sense?

No, I don't support giving you fuckers more weapons, you've causes enough troubles as it is. Helping out the civilians fucked over by this nonsense, yes, that I will support, but not one bullet for further stupidity on the part of Georgia.

I realize that the ante bellum status quo was making you unhappy, but the greater part of Georgia was humming along just fine and the Russians weren't shooting at you or rolling tanks through your streets. Then you had to go and wake up Mr. Grumpy Bear. You know, maybe the problem is that Georgia doesn't have bears - here in the US, if some dumbshit fucks with a bear in Yellowstone or Alaska and gets his face ripped off we say "What a stupid motherfucker". I'm looking at Georgia right now and thinking "You stupid motherfuckers - don't fuck with the Russians".

Families fled Gori in cars and donkey carts.

I guess there are some sensible people in Georgia. Pity they aren't the folks in charge of the place.

In Washington, Secretary Rice worked through the night Saturday with other Bush administration officials on a Security Council resolution. American diplomats said that they did not want an actual Security Council vote on the resolution until Tuesday or so, the better to draw out the debate and publicly shame the Russian government. While the resolution will carry no punitive weight, and is almost sure to be vetoed by Russia, a permanent Council member, the hope is that it could create more pressure for a cease-fire, officials said.

Waiting until Tuesday will also give other governments more time to get factual information rather than propaganda.

Clearly, this is a mess. I hate wars. Doesn't matter what size.