City park shut down because mother breastfed her child there

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Cairber
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: 2004-03-30 11:42pm
Location: East Norriton, PA

City park shut down because mother breastfed her child there

Post by Cairber »

ahhh Florida....
JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Holly Howe said she was discreetly nursing her baby under a blanket when a manager at the Kid's Kampus approached her.

"He said I couldn't breast feed because breast milk is a bodily fluid and I could contaminate the park and he would have to shut the park down," said Howe.

As an educated mom who had already nursed two other babies, Howe was incredulous. She tried to explain that Florida law gives women the right to breast feed in public places, but the manager, she claimed, would have none of it.

Finally, she and her five month old retreated to another area of the park, but according to Howe, the park manager followed her with papers he printed off the internet talking about HIV and breast milk. She left feeling harrassed and, in her words, "gross."

"I don't think anyone should have to feel bad or gross about giving their child the best nourishment. I was no threat," Howe said.

So Howe wrote a letter of complaint to the City of Jacksonville, and also contacted the Breast Feeding Coalition where her story came to the attention of its president, Loretta Haycook.

"I thought surely not in this day and time," Haycook said.

Haycook hoped it was an isolated incident, then a second, almost identical, complaint came in from another mom, Irma Persoff.

"He basically told me if I didn't leave the park he would close it down," said Persoff.

And according to her that is exactly what he did.

"When other women wanted to know why he had shut down the park, he told them to go ask me," she says.

Haycook calls the whole bodily fluid argument "assinine".

In fact, Haycook points to all of the well documented health benefits breast feeding offers, from preventing ear infections, to guarding against cancer.

"People should not be harrassed they should be patted on the back for breast feeding," she says.

For the record, Pam Wilson from the city's Parks and Recreation Department wholeheartedly agrees. She said the issues have been isolated to this park and that it will not happen again.

"First let me says the city has no plans to limit breast feeding and we encourage it. This has been the only incident at a city park and it was simply a misinterpretation by staff," Wilson said.

She says all city staff will be re-educated. That is something Howe and Persoff are happy to hear.

"Seeing a woman breast feeding in public is not the same thing as seeing a scantily clad woman at the beach. It's a woman nourishing her child the best way she can," said Persoff.
This mother has been in contact with the local and national LLL and they were telling us the story tonight. The park manager tracked the first woman down and shoved some internet print outs about HIV and breastmilk at her and then he actually shut down the park the next day due to possible HIV contamination by the second mother because she breastfed her baby on the pool deck.

Craziness. And now they are simply "retraining" him instead of firing him...

I am happy with the park service's public statement about breastfeeding, which was refreshing to read.
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

I boycott Nestle; ask me why!
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

Jacksonville is part of Whitest Jesustan, no...?
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

gahhh!!!

ok, hopefully who ever is "retraining" said reactionary asshole, should be allowed to use a bamboo cane....
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: City park shut down because mother breastfed her child t

Post by Aaron »

Cairber wrote:
This mother has been in contact with the local and national LLL and they were telling us the story tonight. The park manager tracked the first woman down and shoved some internet print outs about HIV and breastmilk at her and then he actually shut down the park the next day due to possible HIV contamination by the second mother because she breastfed her baby on the pool deck.

Craziness. And now they are simply "retraining" him instead of firing him...

I am happy with the park service's public statement about breastfeeding, which was refreshing to read.
Frankly I've always been a little skeptical about the LLL (we have a few family members that basically demanded Mrs. K breastfeed who were LLL), so I tend to take their views with a grain of salt but this is grade A BS. I've never heard anything about HIV being past through breastmilk and if it could I can't see how it would affect anyone on the pool deck unless she squirted it into a wound.

That said, "retraining" is pretty par for the course with public officials and embarrassing incidents, Florida may be a little different than here but you have to do something seriously fuck up to get fired in the public service. Like murder.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Crayz9000
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 7329
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:39pm
Location: Improbably superpositioned
Contact:

Post by Crayz9000 »

Patrick Degan wrote:Jacksonville is part of Whitest Jesustan, no...?
Actually, from what I understand, they're typically one of the proponent groups of breastfeeding...

Also, Cpl Kendall, from what I understand the pros of breastfeeding usually outweigh the cons. The usual medical reasons for not breastfeeding are pretty much the same dietary/lifestyle habits you wouldn't want to do while pregnant, also a few diseases can do the same thing and apparently some women just can't produce enough milk. So it does make sense to do so, IF the mother is capable of it.
A Tribute to Stupidity: The Robert Scott Anderson Archive (currently offline)
John Hansen - Slightly Insane Bounty Hunter - ASVS Vets' Assoc. Class of 2000
HAB Cryptanalyst | WG - Intergalactic Alliance and Spoof Author | BotM | Cybertron | SCEF
User avatar
Cairber
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: 2004-03-30 11:42pm
Location: East Norriton, PA

Post by Cairber »

I agree, Mr Kendall--LLL can be very hit and miss. They can give breastfeeding advocacy a bad name by being overly pushy and disowning women who, for example, choose to supplement and pointing low income women to LCs that cost too much for their families to handle. I stick with them because they are all this area has and there are a lot of low income, at risk moms in the city near me so help is really needed; I hope someday to start my own group to help mothers.
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

I boycott Nestle; ask me why!
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Post by Aaron »

Crayz9000 wrote:
Also, Cpl Kendall, from what I understand the pros of breastfeeding usually outweigh the cons. The usual medical reasons for not breastfeeding are pretty much the same dietary/lifestyle habits you wouldn't want to do while pregnant, also a few diseases can do the same thing and apparently some women just can't produce enough milk. So it does make sense to do so, IF the mother is capable of it.
Please don't get me wrong, both my children where breastfed and I completely support breastfeeding providing the mother is capable of doing it. It's just quite aggrivating when a relative shows up, waves LLL literature around and starts screaming that if you don't breastfeed your children will be little better than starving African kids and that your a horrible parent.
I agree, Mr Kendall--LLL can be very hit and miss. They can give breastfeeding advocacy a bad name by being overly pushy and disowning women who, for example, choose to supplement and pointing low income women to LCs that cost too much for their families to handle. I stick with them because they are all this area has and there are a lot of low income, at risk moms in the city near me so help is really needed; I hope someday to start my own group to help mothers.
What's that saying? The few ruin it for the many? I just happened to get a loon.

Both the parenting classes we took stressed the advantages of breastfeeding yet somehow managed to omit the risk of HIV transmission from breast milk, hence my belief that this fellow is full of shit.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Cairber
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: 2004-03-30 11:42pm
Location: East Norriton, PA

Post by Cairber »

What's that saying? The few ruin it for the many? I just happened to get a loon.
yeah, unfortunately, with LLL it is becoming more and more people within the organization. While I know this is getting a bit off topic, I have to say I feel it is because, like formula, breastfeeding is becoming a "money maker." Obviously it is not in the same way as formula, but more and more women are making it in the "business of lactation." Lactation consultants can cost 100$ for an hour visit and more if you need them to come to your house.

Some LCs scare women and push them over the edge. Others are hired by hospitals and, in my opinion, get "bought" by them at times, advocating formula company marketing and working formula into their approach to breastfeeding support.

I hear more and more negative reactions to my LLL invitations as the months go by. It's a pretty sad situation.
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

I boycott Nestle; ask me why!
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Post by Aaron »

Cairber wrote:
What's that saying? The few ruin it for the many? I just happened to get a loon.
yeah, unfortunately, with LLL it is becoming more and more people within the organization. While I know this is getting a bit off topic, I have to say I feel it is because, like formula, breastfeeding is becoming a "money maker." Obviously it is not in the same way as formula, but more and more women are making it in the "business of lactation." Lactation consultants can cost 100$ for an hour visit and more if you need them to come to your house.

Some LCs scare women and push them over the edge. Others are hired by hospitals and, in my opinion, get "bought" by them at times, advocating formula company marketing and working formula into their approach to breastfeeding support.

I hear more and more negative reactions to my LLL invitations as the months go by. It's a pretty sad situation.
Well I won't derail the thread further as I think my stance on breastfeeding is quite well established. I'll just voice my wish that this guy be reassigned to water purification or sewage treatment.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Cairber
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: 2004-03-30 11:42pm
Location: East Norriton, PA

Post by Cairber »

I wasn't attacking you, just telling a bit more why I agree with you that LLL isn't always the wonderful organization that many breastfeeding advocates say it is. You have always been very supportive of the cause :D (I just rant a lot about LLL)
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

I boycott Nestle; ask me why!
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Post by Aaron »

Cairber wrote:I wasn't attacking you, just telling a bit more why I agree with you that LLL isn't always the wonderful organization that many breastfeeding advocates say it is. You have always been very supportive of the cause :D (I just rant a lot about LLL)
Oh, I never thought you were attacking me. I just didn't want to derail the thread any further. I'm sure the board populace is not intensely interested in our views on LLL. :wink:
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Cairber
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: 2004-03-30 11:42pm
Location: East Norriton, PA

Post by Cairber »

True :lol: If my leader ever read this thread they'd probably boot me out :oops:


On topic:

Apparently the swim park allows infants and toddlers in swim diapers, which are only made to contain solids (and don't do it all too well anyway). I wonder what his reaction to that information would be!
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

I boycott Nestle; ask me why!
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

So what if you spit in public? :roll:
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I know I'm just an ignorant troglodyte young male, but what the fuck is a lactation consultant? Is there really something your doctor can't explain to you on the lead up to birth and right after?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
PainRack
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7583
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:03am
Location: Singapura

Post by PainRack »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I know I'm just an ignorant troglodyte young male, but what the fuck is a lactation consultant? Is there really something your doctor can't explain to you on the lead up to birth and right after?
It is possible to get breastfeeding wrong, creating injury to the woman or not allowing the baby to get sufficient nutrition. Its probably just another overspecialisation though.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
User avatar
SCRawl
Has a bad feeling about this.
Posts: 4191
Joined: 2002-12-24 03:11pm
Location: Burlington, Canada

Post by SCRawl »

PainRack wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I know I'm just an ignorant troglodyte young male, but what the fuck is a lactation consultant? Is there really something your doctor can't explain to you on the lead up to birth and right after?
It is possible to get breastfeeding wrong, creating injury to the woman or not allowing the baby to get sufficient nutrition. Its probably just another overspecialisation though.
It's a pretty stressful time, especially for first-time mothers, and getting that latch right isn't always easy. The prenatal classes were helpful, but nothing can replace a person by your side telling you if you're doing something wrong.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.
User avatar
Cairber
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1768
Joined: 2004-03-30 11:42pm
Location: East Norriton, PA

Post by Cairber »

The demand for LCs has grown because typically a woman having children today was not breastfed and her mother was not breastfed, etcetc, so there tends to be no one to turn to to answer questions about latch, infections, yeast, pain, etc. In addition, there is a lack of good knowledge in much of the medical field as well, and many pediatricians get bought by formula companies who take them on vacations and whatnot (so woman comes in with problem, they recommend formula). I remember back when I used an OB, the foot holder things you had to put your feet in during exams were covered by enfamil formula company advertisements. Another example of how doctors are failing women in this area is how they use infant growth charts based on formula fed infants, which often create problems because they make breastfed babies seem underfed and underweight (then the doctor recommends formula to bulk them up...)
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

I boycott Nestle; ask me why!
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: City park shut down because mother breastfed her child t

Post by Broomstick »

Cpl Kendall wrote:I've never heard anything about HIV being past through breastmilk and if it could I can't see how it would affect anyone on the pool deck unless she squirted it into a wound.
It is possible to spread HIV through breastmilk but very rare. The person most at risk is the child being fed, not bystanders. Really, lactating women aren't out-of-control sprinklers and firehoses blasting passing people with high pressure streams of mommyjuice!

HIV positive women are told NOT to breastfeed but to bottlefeed for the health and safety of their child, but clearly that is an exception to the usual rule and, needless to say, such a woman wouldn't come under the scrutiny of this asshole because they're not using their boobies as food dispensers.

I learned about this when I worked at a clinic where, by the time I left, about 20% of our patients were HIV positive, including a significant number of women with infants. We really had a problem at one point with lactation-nazis harassing these gals - keep in mind that at the time we didn't even have AZT, a diagnosis of HIV was almost always a 6-month death sentence, these women had just given birth, were dying themselves, scared to death they'd passed the virus to a child who was going to grow up without a mother, and now they were being told they were bad and evil because they were using bottle instead of breast. Oh, don't get me started....

Fortunately, MOST women don't have to worry about that!
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
tim31
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3388
Joined: 2006-10-18 03:32am
Location: Tasmania, Australia

Re: City park shut down because mother breastfed her child t

Post by tim31 »

Broomstick wrote:Really, lactating women aren't out-of-control sprinklers and firehoses blasting passing people with high pressure streams of mommyjuice!
There was one time where Emily had been on a full-day business trip when Charlotte was still feeding. When she got home and started to unwrap herself, it was actually quite like your description.
lol, opsec doesn't apply to fanfiction. -Aaron

PRFYNAFBTFC
CAPTAIN OF MFS SAMMY HAGAR
ImageImage
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18687
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: City park shut down because mother breastfed her child t

Post by Rogue 9 »

Cairber wrote:The park manager tracked the first woman down and shoved some internet print outs about HIV and breastmilk at her and then he actually shut down the park the next day due to possible HIV contamination by the second mother because she breastfed her baby on the pool deck.
Dare I say it... Pool's closed due to AIDS?

Seriously, though, this is fucking ridiculous. Not only does he tell her she can't breastfeed in the park, but he goes and gets printouts and follows her around lecturing? :?
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Post by Aaron »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I know I'm just an ignorant troglodyte young male, but what the fuck is a lactation consultant? Is there really something your doctor can't explain to you on the lead up to birth and right after?
As others have stated, it's just someone who teaches you how to breastfeed. Which seems the difficult part is getting the baby to latch on, getting that wrong causes quite a bit of pain for the mother. It seems bigger in the US, here the RN's on the maternity wards teach you to do it ASAP. There's a bit of a window before the mother will stop producing milk (that basically relies on stimulation, none of that and no more milk).

Thanks you Broomstick, I wasn't aware that HIV could be passed through breastmilk.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Lagmonster
Master Control Program
Master Control Program
Posts: 7719
Joined: 2002-07-04 09:53am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: City park shut down because mother breastfed her child t

Post by Lagmonster »

Cairber wrote:Craziness. And now they are simply "retraining" him instead of firing him...
That's not so uncommon as you'd think. People with phenominal unions, such as public servants, tend to be able to appeal for re-training instead of termination in situations like this. The man probably hid behind a civic regulation or law concerning public hygiene that he 'misunderstood' and the city has to offer the chance for him to be reigned in. Now, if he does it again, they have the paper trail which says they've clarified all the rules for him and he has no excuse.
I am happy with the park service's public statement about breastfeeding, which was refreshing to read.
Sounds like everyone involved kept their heads screwed on properly save for the one neanderthal. The woman went to the best authorities she knew of, the city authorities publicly apologized and clarified the woman's rights. It's maddening how often a situation like this would spiral into courts with no clear resolution or, worse yet, the support of city officials behind the arse who was harassing the poor woman.
Last edited by Lagmonster on 2008-08-12 01:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10424
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Post by Solauren »

Hopefully, the mother can do something in a civil court about the idiot.

After all, the print outs and so forth are pretty damning, in regards to the fact this was basically a form of harassment
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

This is why I think all public employee unions should be outlawed. Private sector unions are one thing, but public-sector unions are a fucking abomination, and there's a good reason for it: their employer can't go out of business, no matter how exorbitant their demands are. Not unless the whole country is brought to ruin by their greed. That's why they always get more in their negotiations than any private-sector union or employee would.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Post Reply