Pentagon: Terrorists defeated by police, political process.

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Pentagon: Terrorists defeated by police, political process.

Post by SirNitram »

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Abstract

How do terrorist groups end? The evidence since 1968 indicates that terrorist groups rarely cease to exist as a result of winning or losing a military campaign. Rather, most groups end because of operations carried out by local police or intelligence agencies or because they join the political process. This suggests that the United States should pursue a counterterrorism strategy against al Qa'ida that emphasizes policing and intelligence gathering rather than a “war on terrorism” approach that relies heavily on military force.

Implications for Countering al Qa'ida

The United States cannot conduct an effective counterterrorism campaign against al Qa'ida or other terrorist groups without understanding how such groups end. While it is clear that U.S. policymakers will need to turn to a range of policy instruments to conduct such campaigns — including careful police and intelligence work, military force, political negotiations, and economic sanctions — what is less clear is how they should prioritize U.S. efforts.

A recent RAND research effort sheds light on this issue by investigating how terrorist groups have ended in the past. By analyzing a comprehensive roster of terrorist groups that existed worldwide between 1968 and 2006, the authors found that most groups ended because of operations carried out by local police or intelligence agencies or because they negotiated a settlement with their governments. Military force was rarely the primary reason a terrorist group ended, and few groups within this time frame achieved victory.

These findings suggest that the U.S. approach to countering al Qa'ida has focused far too much on the use of military force. Instead, policing and intelligence should be the backbone of U.S. efforts.
First Systematic Examination of the End of Terrorist Groups

This was the first systematic look at how terrorist groups end. The authors compiled and analyzed a data set of all terrorist groups between 1968 and 2006, drawn from a terrorism-incident database that RAND and the Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism jointly oversee. The authors used that data to identify the primary reason for the end of groups and to statistically analyze how economic conditions, regime type, size, ideology, and group goals affected their survival. They then conducted comparative case studies of specific terrorist groups to understand how they ended.

Of the 648 groups that were active at some point between 1968 and 2006, a total of 268 ended during that period. Another 136 groups splintered, and 244 remained active. As depicted in the figure, the authors found that most ended for one of two reasons: They were penetrated and eliminated by local police and intelligence agencies (40 percent), or they reached a peaceful political accommodation with their government (43 percent). Most terrorist groups that ended because of politics sought narrow policy goals. The narrower the goals, the more likely the group was to achieve them through political accommodation — and thus the more likely the government and terrorists were to reach a negotiated settlement.

In 10 percent of cases, terrorist groups ended because they achieved victory. Military force led to the end of terrorist groups in 7 percent of cases. The authors found that militaries tended to be most effective when used against terrorist groups engaged in insurgencies in which the groups were large, well armed, and well organized. But against most terrorist groups, military force was usually too blunt an instrument.

The analysis also found that

* religiously motivated terrorist groups took longer to eliminate than other groups but rarely achieved their objectives; no religiously motivated group achieved victory during the period studied.
* size significantly determined a group's fate. Groups exceeding 10,000 members were victorious more than 25 percent of the time, while victory was rare for groups below 1,000 members.
* terrorist groups from upper-income countries are much more likely to be left-wing or nationalist and much less likely to be motivated by religion.

Police-Oriented Counterterrorism Rather Than a “War on Terrorism”

What does this mean for counterterrorism efforts against al Qa'ida? After September 11, 2001, U.S. strategy against al Qa'ida concentrated on the use of military force. Although the United States has employed nonmilitary instruments — cutting off terrorist financing or providing foreign assistance, for example — U.S. policymakers continue to refer to the strategy as a “war on terrorism.”

But military force has not undermined al Qa'ida. As of 2008, al Qa'ida has remained a strong and competent organization. Its goal is intact: to establish a pan-Islamic caliphate in the Middle East by uniting Muslims to fight infidels and overthrow West-friendly regimes. It continues to employ terrorism and has been involved in more terrorist attacks around the world in the years since September 11, 2001, than in prior years, though engaging in no successful attacks of a comparable magnitude to the attacks on New York and Washington.

Al Qa'ida's resilience should trigger a fundamental rethinking of U.S. strategy. Its goal of a pan-Islamic caliphate leaves little room for a negotiated political settlement with governments in the Middle East. A more effective U.S. approach would involve a two-front strategy:

* Make policing and intelligence the backbone of U.S. efforts. Al Qa'ida consists of a network of individuals who need to be tracked and arrested. This requires careful involvement of the Central Intelligence Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation, as well as their cooperation with foreign police and intelligence agencies.
* Minimize the use of U.S. military force. In most operations against al Qa'ida, local military forces frequently have more legitimacy to operate and a better understanding of the operating environment than U.S. forces have. This means a light U.S. military footprint or none at all.

Key to this strategy is replacing the war-on-terrorism orientation with the kind of counterterrorism approach that is employed by most governments facing significant terrorist threats today. Calling the efforts a war on terrorism raises public expectations — both in the United States and elsewhere — that there is a battlefield solution. It also tends to legitimize the terrorists' view that they are conducting a jihad (holy war) against the United States and elevates them to the status of holy warriors. Terrorists should be perceived as criminals, not holy warriors.
RAND Corp is of course the Pentagon's independent research arm. The page includes a pie chart which doesn't really transfer well to some of the backgrounds for this site; I encourage people to clink da link and see it.

Of course, the intelligent people have been saying this for a while. Nevermind facts, though, the Right Wingers will still joyfully insist on the failing method.
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Post by Darth Yoshi »

That should be painfully obvious, really. Terrorism is generally a means of expressing some socio-political agenda. Address the concerns for that agenda, and you knock the wind out of their sails. I liken the WoT to a military campaign against hunger striking.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Hum. So this report espouses the 1992-2000 Policy Goals of the US Government to treat Terrorism as a matter to be treated as a criminal issue, with the police forces taking the lead; and limiting our options regarding international terrorists drastically.

That worked really quite well. :roll:
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Post by SirNitram »

MKSheppard wrote:Hum. So this report espouses the 1992-2000 Policy Goals of the US Government to treat Terrorism as a matter to be treated as a criminal issue, with the police forces taking the lead; and limiting our options regarding international terrorists drastically.

That worked really quite well. :roll:
40% vs. 7%. Reality is mocking you.
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Post by MKSheppard »

SirNitram wrote:40% vs. 7%. Reality is mocking you.
No, you're the moron who posted a misleading title.

This is not research sponsored by the Pentagon, and RAND isn't the independent research arm of the Pentagon.
This research brief describes work done for the RAND Corporation's continuing program of self-initiated independent research documented in How Terrorist Groups End: Lessons for Countering al Qa'ida, by Seth G. Jones and Martin C. Libicki, MG-741-RC, 2008, 252 pp., ISBN:
Secondly, it's espoused approach:
* Make policing and intelligence the backbone of U.S. efforts. Al Qa'ida consists of a network of individuals who need to be tracked and arrested. This requires careful involvement of the Central Intelligence Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation, as well as their cooperation with foreign police and intelligence agencies.
* Minimize the use of U.S. military force. In most operations against al Qa'ida, local military forces frequently have more legitimacy to operate and a better understanding of the operating environment than U.S. forces have. This means a light U.S. military footprint or none at all.
Is exactly what we did from 1992-2000; we relied on the FBI and CIA to lead the fight against terrorism; and hamstrung them with legalism -- which was a direct responsibility of assigning counterterrorism to criminal justice -- because in a criminal justice setting, you can't just say "look, let's just go kill the motherfuckers with a Hellfire from a Predator."
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Post by SirNitram »

Would you like to actually show logical problems with the numbers, or will you continue to whine and stamp feet? AND OH NO, IT WASN'T SPONSORED BY THE PENTAGON!!!! Well jee willikers, if only you had some logical basis for assuming it was faulty, you might have a point. But you don't. So you're going to continue throwing out red herrings and nitpicks.
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Post by MKSheppard »

SirNitram wrote:Would you like to actually show logical problems with the numbers, or will you continue to whine and stamp feet?
We have the data from this approach from when it was US Policy from 1992 to 2000; and it didn't work in reducing Al Quaeda or blunting them -- their attacks only grew ever more bolder and larger.

The legal approach to terrorism only works when they're small scale groups, like ALF, violent anti-abortionists, etc.

When it comes to large scale terrorism, the legal approach doesn't because of the requirements required to secure a conviction, both from evidence problems and various legalities which can derail a criminal trial entirely.

Everything has to have all the Is dotted and your ts crossed, else you can't convict.

By contrast, on the other hand, firing a Hellfire at their car with them in it removes them from the game just as well as putting them in jail, and it's far easier to arrange -- and best of all, you can do it on evidence that would be inadmissible in a courtroom; like the use of spy satellites to track one guy down...
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Post by Patrick Degan »

MKSheppard wrote:By contrast, on the other hand, firing a Hellfire at their car with them in it removes them from the game just as well as putting them in jail, and it's far easier to arrange -- and best of all, you can do it on evidence that would be inadmissible in a courtroom; like the use of spy satellites to track one guy down...
Yes, we can see how successful Israel has been using this approach for nearly four decades to defeat terrorism —oh, wait, they actually haven't.
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Post by Durandal »

I've been saying this since this idiotic "War on Terror" started kicking into high gear after 9/11. The sad thing is that, after 9/11, the CIA refused help from the FBI regarding infiltration of cellular organizations. After all, the FBI were just the domestic guys who couldn't possibly have anything to contribute after decades of experience hunting down domestic terrorists and organized crime ...
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Post by Setzer »

Islamic terrorism is obsessed with Martyrdom. Do you really think they can be killed off, or will it just create more Jihadis with a hardon for a glorious death?
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Post by SirNitram »

MKSheppard wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Would you like to actually show logical problems with the numbers, or will you continue to whine and stamp feet?
We have the data from this approach from when it was US Policy from 1992 to 2000; and it didn't work in reducing Al Quaeda or blunting them -- their attacks only grew ever more bolder and larger.
I'm sorry, where's your references and numbers to disprove the paper? Oh, you don't have any. You're wrong.
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Post by PainRack »

MKSheppard wrote:Hum. So this report espouses the 1992-2000 Policy Goals of the US Government to treat Terrorism as a matter to be treated as a criminal issue, with the police forces taking the lead; and limiting our options regarding international terrorists drastically.

That worked really quite well. :roll:
Except let's look at what happened, k? The Americans rolled up the islamic cells that did the first WTC bombing and managed to shut down various plots targeting various Washington momuments as well as airports.

Terrorist actions conducted against the US actually DECREASED during this period from the Ronald Reagan adminstration, albeit, a trend that also happened in George W Bush Snr adminstration where nothing was done. While a couple of high profile attacks did happen(Cole), other than the WTC bombings and Oklahoma, they were relatively low threat and hurt few American citizens.
Despite the WoT, Al Queda was still able to inspire subordinate commands to launch attacks such as the Bali bombings. Attacks against US forces in Iraq are numerous, and although of low intensity, combined have caused a higher casualty toll on America.

Given that the purpose of the WoT is to REDUCE terrorist attacks and preserve American lives/property and interests, pray tell, how on earth is the WoT somehow better than Clinton legal jujitsu? The ability to launch cruise missiles at Al Queda camps? Isn't that what Clinton did and got accused of wagging the dog for?
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Post by MKSheppard »

SirNitram wrote:I'm sorry, where's your references and numbers to disprove the paper? Oh, you don't have any. You're wrong.
Oh, lets talk about Thailand, then.

One of the reasons that PM Thaksin was deposed and replaced by PM Chulanont was because Thaksin's policies towards the Islamic insurgency in the south was very heavy on the use of the military, et al to defeat it.

(We won't get into the political skullduggery around Thaksin attempting an end run around Thailands established political families by bringing reconstruction aid, etc near-directly to the poor; Stuart can explain that aspect better than I can).

So anyway, Chulanont upon taking power eases up on the use of the Royal Thai Army in combating the Islamic insurgency in the south; and apologizes for any "atrocities" that the RTA may have committed in the south while fighting the insurgency.

Does this make the violence level go down?

Nope. It increases big time.
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Post by SirNitram »

MKSheppard wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I'm sorry, where's your references and numbers to disprove the paper? Oh, you don't have any. You're wrong.
Oh, lets talk about Thailand, then.
I'm sorry, when are you going to provide references and numbers that disprove the paper? You didn't. You've shown me another individual case. Within the context of what I have put forth and what the study says, it's an anecdotal waste of space.

Are you too stupid to get how this works yet?
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Post by Patrick Degan »

MKSheppard wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I'm sorry, where's your references and numbers to disprove the paper? Oh, you don't have any. You're wrong.
Oh, lets talk about Thailand, then.

One of the reasons that PM Thaksin was deposed and replaced by PM Chulanont was because Thaksin's policies towards the Islamic insurgency in the south was very heavy on the use of the military, et al to defeat it.

(We won't get into the political skullduggery around Thaksin attempting an end run around Thailands established political families by bringing reconstruction aid, etc near-directly to the poor; Stuart can explain that aspect better than I can).

So anyway, Chulanont upon taking power eases up on the use of the Royal Thai Army in combating the Islamic insurgency in the south; and apologizes for any "atrocities" that the RTA may have committed in the south while fighting the insurgency.

Does this make the violence level go down?

Nope. It increases big time.
Red herring —combatting a large-scale insurgency is not the same thing as dealing with a terrorist cel.
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MKSheppard wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Would you like to actually show logical problems with the numbers, or will you continue to whine and stamp feet?
We have the data from this approach from when it was US Policy from 1992 to 2000; and it didn't work in reducing Al Quaeda or blunting them -- their attacks only grew ever more bolder and larger.
And when the US adopted militaristic antiterrorism, that worked better, right? Oh, wait, it didn't, according to the combined intelligence report in fall 2006.
The legal approach to terrorism only works when they're small scale groups, like ALF, violent anti-abortionists, etc.
Oh, so that is why the US government didn't have all the information to stop al-Qaida's 9/11. Whoops, they actually did. The problem was one of coordination, not of basic policy.
When it comes to large scale terrorism, the legal approach doesn't because of the requirements required to secure a conviction, both from evidence problems and various legalities which can derail a criminal trial entirely.

Everything has to have all the Is dotted and your ts crossed, else you can't convict.

By contrast, on the other hand, firing a Hellfire at their car with them in it removes them from the game just as well as putting them in jail, and it's far easier to arrange -- and best of all, you can do it on evidence that would be inadmissible in a courtroom; like the use of spy satellites to track one guy down...
God forbid you actually prove a man is guilty before you execute him. :roll:
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Patrick Degan wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:By contrast, on the other hand, firing a Hellfire at their car with them in it removes them from the game just as well as putting them in jail, and it's far easier to arrange -- and best of all, you can do it on evidence that would be inadmissible in a courtroom; like the use of spy satellites to track one guy down...
Yes, we can see how successful Israel has been using this approach for nearly four decades to defeat terrorism —oh, wait, they actually haven't.
Or look at the whole actions of England and Ireland over the last century or so. I'm sure a large carpet bombing was what led to the "Good Friday Accords"? oh wait it didn't?

how about South Africa vs. ANC? sure they won the standing battles, didn't exactly do too well in a war. Let's see after all the money the USA spent in South and Central America since the 1950s on Terrorism, I'm sure the region is full of friendly pro-USA client states....


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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Good on the RAND Corporation for proving what we all knew all along: You don't attack a guerilla enemy with conventional military force. You find out their grievances, then negotiate terms everyone can live with.
Setzer wrote:Islamic terrorism is obsessed with Martyrdom. Do you really think they can be killed off, or will it just create more Jihadis with a hardon for a glorious death?
Setzer wrote:Klingon nationalism is obsessed with Honor. Do you really think they can be killed off, or will it just create more Klingons with a hardon for a glorious death?
Ha.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Patrick Degan wrote:Red herring —combatting a large-scale insurgency is not the same thing as dealing with a terrorist cel.
Actually, the situation in Southern Thailand is analogous to a ton of small scale terrorist cells. There's all sorts of independent bombings, drive by shootings, etc.

Give you an example of one such attack back in 2005.

In Thailand there's a holiday called Songkhram. Started out as a way to show respect for your elders by pouring water over their hands as a blessing and a wish for long life. In return, elders would give the young gifts to help with the future.

Of course, this is Thailand, so it becomes a party where everyone is throwing water at everyone. Then the supersoaker is invented and things go crazy. Even the Thai Army base guards join in the fun and get in water fights with the kids from a local school.

So of course, two muslim terrorists loaded up their super soakers with acid and started to spray kids (this was in 2005). Six people ended up in the hospital with severe acid burns to the face and body. A boy lost his sight after he was splashed in the face by accident -- the terrorists were aiming for women specifically.
You don't attack a guerilla enemy with conventional military force. You find out their grievances, then negotiate terms everyone can live with.
Tell that to Thailand. They tried that by couping the pro-military solution PM and his replacement apologized to the south for military excesses and moved towards a softer approach to dealing with terrorism.

Violence in the south increased, not decreased.

I'm reading the RAND study now, and it's very contradictory at times.
The evidence since 1968 indicates that most groups have ended because (1) they joined the political process or (2) local police and intelligence agencies arrested or killed key members. Military force has rarely been the primary reason for the end of terrorist groups, and few groups within this time frame achieved victory.
Does it really matter who kills key members of the terrorist group as long as said key members are being killed?
In 1995, the Anti-Imperialist Group Liberty for Mumia Abu Jamal bombed a Chrysler dealership in Germany to protest the arrest of the African-American journalist Mumia Abu-Jamal, who was imprisoned for allegedly murdering a police officer.52
Allegedly?
But even precision weapons have been of marginal use against terrorist groups. For example, the United States launched cruise-missile strikes against facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan in response to the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya. But they had no discernible impact on al Qa’ida.
Nothing like the current practice of putting a drone onto the trail of someone long enough to confirm it's them in the car or tent, and then launching a missile to kill them, like we got Abu Khabab al-Masri last month with a missile fired from a CIA drone....

What's really fun is that the author lumps the CIA into the Policing role, when the Agency's role is becoming really increasingly blurred with it's military attacks from attack drones it operates; and they also train foreign military groups as well...
In 70 percent of the cases since 1968 in which military force was effective, it was against groups that had more than 100 members.
Doesn't that apply to you know, Al Quaeda?
As David Galula argued, “[C]onventional operations by themselves have at best no more effect than a fly swatter. Some guerrillas are bound to be caught, but new recruits will replace them as fast as they are lost.”74
Ah, the good old "we create more terrorists by fighting them" argument. Hum. Wait.

By that logic, shouldn't the Chechens in Chechnya have more than 1,000 fighters now and be a serious threat to the Russians?

In the end, this paper is predisposed towards creating an artificial dividing line between "civilian policing and intelligence" and "military force"; when in reality the two are becoming increasingly blurred together.

For example, an attack on an Al Quaeda HVT might evolve from the CIA picking up hints of the HVT's location through it's ECHELON and various other SIGINT stations around the world, and that information being used to vector in a USAF Predator to shadow and follow the target in preparation for a missile strike. Or information from interrogation of terrorists captured through military actions being used to launch police raids and vice versa?
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Post by Patrick Degan »

MKSheppard wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Red herring —combatting a large-scale insurgency is not the same thing as dealing with a terrorist cel.
Actually, the situation in Southern Thailand is analogous to a ton of small scale terrorist cells. There's all sorts of independent bombings, drive by shootings, etc.

Give you an example of one such attack back in 2005.

In Thailand there's a holiday called Songkhram. Started out as a way to show respect for your elders by pouring water over their hands as a blessing and a wish for long life. In return, elders would give the young gifts to help with the future.

Of course, this is Thailand, so it becomes a party where everyone is throwing water at everyone. Then the supersoaker is invented and things go crazy. Even the Thai Army base guards join in the fun and get in water fights with the kids from a local school.

So of course, two muslim terrorists loaded up their super soakers with acid and started to spray kids (this was in 2005). Six people ended up in the hospital with severe acid burns to the face and body. A boy lost his sight after he was splashed in the face by accident -- the terrorists were aiming for women specifically.
Hmm...
Council On Foreign Relations wrote:Why isn’t the new government’s approach working to end the insurgency?

Experts say Thaksin's stance set in motion a rise in bloodshed that will take time to control. "Once the spiral of violence starts it is difficult to stop," says Croissant. Liow predicts "the problem will get worse before it gets better" and that Thaksin's policy mistakes "set the government behind several decades in terms of critical intelligence gathering" necessary for effective counterinsurgency operations. Despite the government's conciliatory remarks, no one in the police or military has been sentenced for human rights abuses carried out at Tak Bai, limiting the chances to quell Muslim distrust of the central government and stoking the longtime desire for greater independence in the Muslim provinces. "One thing that hasn't changed is [Bangkok's] reluctance to talk about autonomy for the south," says Kevin Hewison, director of Asia Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

But the inability to identify who is orchestrating insurgent attacks also represents a crucial obstacle to controlling the insurgency. No group has claimed responsibility for the attacks or made specific demands. "Keeping quiet has worked to [the insurgents'] advantage, baffling the Thai security forces, and giving them a mysterious aura," writes Zachary Abuza, a Southeast Asia terrorism expert at Simmons College in Boston.
A large part of the problem is the extreme level of ambiguity connected with the insurgency. Nobody knows if their numbers are as low as 500 or as high as 15,000. Nobody knows just how many insurgent groups there are or who their leaders are. Nobody knows if it's an all-Islamic insurgency or if there might be hardline Communist groups involved as well. Nobody knows the exact source of funding. Nobody even knows the exact object of the insurgency. No, this is not as simple as you make it out and simple brute-force is not going to quell the violence in the southern provinces.
You don't attack a guerilla enemy with conventional military force. You find out their grievances, then negotiate terms everyone can live with.
Tell that to Thailand. They tried that by couping the pro-military solution PM and his replacement apologized to the south for military excesses and moved towards a softer approach to dealing with terrorism.

Violence in the south increased, not decreased.
Except the incompetent pure brute-force approach of Thaskin poisoned the well. Little surprise at what resulted.
As David Galula argued, “[C]onventional operations by themselves have at best no more effect than a fly swatter. Some guerrillas are bound to be caught, but new recruits will replace them as fast as they are lost.”74
Ah, the good old "we create more terrorists by fighting them" argument.
Which is what happened in Iraq.
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Patrick Degan wrote:A large part of the problem is the extreme level of ambiguity connected with the insurgency. Nobody knows if their numbers are as low as 500 or as high as 15,000. Nobody knows just how many insurgent groups there are or who their leaders are. Nobody knows if it's an all-Islamic insurgency or if there might be hardline Communist groups involved as well. Nobody knows the exact source of funding.
Actually we know who is funding and leading it.

I'll let Suphi do the talking for me.

Supatra (in 2005):
Since was last here is good news bad news situation. Good news is we have handle on problem now know what we face. Terrorist strength is around 15,000 almost all are Muslin students and teachers. Muslim schools are center of terrorism are where recruit organize train. We watch these now are taking them down one by one. We raid one find is full of al qaeda propaganda dvds on how to make bombs. Find trees full of bullet holes from target practice discarded brass on ground. Dumb not to clear that up. Boss of school deny everything so we pound face into tree until he see sense.

More good news is terrorists start to break up. Are getting more and more of those who leave movement surrender to us and tell us very useful things. So we start to role up organization. Also most skilled terrorists are killed off now. Now seeing recruits who are less trained. Important thing now many more people down here carry guns. This is most important single thing can have. Terrorist cannot flourish where people are armed and fight back. Is perhaps significant thing first demand of those who try to make us do peace settlement is disarm people.

Bad news. We still losing people. To bombs and drive-by shooting. Primary target of terrorist is teachers we lose too many of these. Also terrorist try some coordinated attacks. Take down power to one twon for most of one night. Also they try to get clever. There is one plan they try was to crash aircraft into headquarters building here. We find out this and stop it but now we have anti-aircraft missiles around this headquarters few others. Missile called Chapparal. Four on each launcher.

Terrorists are trying to internationalize conflict. They want peacekeeping force here. They know peacekeeping fprce will do nothing to them but stop us fighting back. Just what is happening in Sri Lanka.


Another post from her in 2005 shows the mindset of the insurgency.

Suphi:
Lose two of my people on Tuesday. Two Marines from 9th battalion 3rd Marine regiment. All fall in the pot when gunmen opened fire on a group of civilians in a teahouse at Ban Tanyong Limo. This in Narathiwat province. Do not know why all those killed both of them were Muslim people. Perhaps gunmen felt were insufficiently militant. Whatever. We send troops from the Third Marine Regiment and 34th special task forces and local police visited the scene of the attack to collect evidence. When they finish my people start to leave, but the two Marines stay on. Do not know why some say their vehicle had broken down, another that they were interviewing witnesses. They make very bad mistake these were kidnapped by terrorists, hog-tied, blindfolded, and gagged, then dumped in the back room of a building.

We start negotiations for the release of the two men, sending in a team of local political and Muslim leaders. This go on for several hours while villagers block the access road to the village with logs and by placing women and children on the road. Eventually, we make agreement with villagers they will release these two. an Then they go to the room where the two men were left and kill them. Forensics show our two men were tortured then beat to death with wooden clubs then bodies mutilated with knives. This after we make agreement for release.

Good news is we have photograph the entire village using a UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle). We have land and aerial photos so we can identify and follow those involved. Ban Tanyong Limo is a red zone and has several leading and operation-level instigators, more than other villages. We identify ten terrorist who are part of committing murders. We pretty sure this is all and we have arrest warrants for them. Already we pick up four of them, all natives of the Ban Tanyong Limo. We have them in military camp in Pattani now from there will be flown to Bangkok.

Please to note two Marines killed Sub-lieutenant Vinai and Petty Officer Kamtorn were posthumously promoted to Captain and Lieutenant Commander respectively, and their salaries raised eight grades. This gives better benefits to family and improved pensions and educational opportunities for their children.


Suphi said that keeping the troops under control was hard; and that even though there was a rescue operation planned, it was decided by the officer on scene to not execute it; due to the possibility of a massacre. After this incident the RTA made a policy decision to execute rescue missions no matter who gets in the way.

By the way, in addition to the eight pay grade posthumous promotion to give the families better benefits; Her Most Gracious Highness Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn came to lead the rites of washing the bodies for burial.

This may not sound like a big thing. But autopsies showed that both Marines had their stomachs cut open and boiling water poured onto them while they were still alive.

Here's a period article from the Asia Times on this incident:
Muslim women, children shield marine killers
By Richard S Ehrlich

BANGKOK - Suspected Islamist insurgents avoided capture after torturing to death two Thai marines by beating and stabbing the bound-and-gagged victims behind a human shield of defiant Muslim women and children, horrifying the government and plunging southern Thailand into a fresh security crisis.

Amid the world's most violent Islamist insurgency outside Iraq, angry and confused security forces hunted the elusive killers, described as three or four young men who ran away, leaving the marines' bloodied bodies in Tanyong Limo village.

"They were brutally beaten to death with machetes and sticks, while their hands and legs were tied up, and they were gagged and blindfolded," Lieutenant General Kwanchart Klaharn, commander of the Fourth Army and director of the Southern Border Provinces Peace-building Command, told reporters.

The bodies were locked inside a building near a mosque, prompting security forces to break down a door to gain access before transporting them to a hospital morgue, he said.

The brutality of the killings - coupled with the security forces' failed attempt to negotiate a peaceful resolution to the hostage crisis and the inability of the armed marines to defend themselves - was urgently being examined by politicians, peace activists, army generals and the Thai media.

"We will absolutely not let those two die for nothing. The law is the law," an agitated Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra told journalists after the killings Wednesday during a 19-hour stalemate between troops and villagers in violence-torn Narathiwat province.

"If I could, I would drop napalm bombs all over that village," a distraught Captain Traikwan Krairiksh was quoted in the Bangkok Post as saying after he viewed the bodies of his former subordinates in a pool of blood. "But the fact is, I can never do that. We are soldiers. We must follow the law. We can only take revenge by using the law."

Throughout the stand-off, scores of shouting Muslim women dressed in traditional headscarves stood with children, blocking troops from gaining access to the hostages, and erecting banners that blamed the authorities, including one in Thai that read: "You are in fact the terrorists."

Apparently hoping for a peaceful solution, troops did not attempt a forced rescue. The two experienced marines, armed with a US-supplied M-16 assault rifle and two pistols, were initially captured on Tuesday night when they stopped their vehicle near the village.

Locals blamed them for the drive-by shooting death of two men dining at a nearby tea shop earlier in the night, but authorities later explained that the marines were pursuing the unidentified killers and were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

More than 1,000 people on all sides have died in southern Thailand since January 4, 2004 when the smoldering rebellion flared in a so-called "night of the fires" attack on security forces, including synchronized arson assaults on 21 schools and a massive raid on a military base that netted the rebels hundreds of guns and heavy weapons.

Today, about 100 years after Thailand annexed the mostly ethnic Malay Muslim region, "mujahideen" holy warriors yearn for a separate state ruled by Islamic sharia law in a lush, tropical region where Islamists are waging similar insurgencies in the Philippines, Indonesia and elsewhere.

No one is sure who leads the increasingly sophisticated, disciplined and successful Muslim fighters in southern Thailand. The government blames indigenous rebel groups, allied with local Islamic schools, that are inspired by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and by Osama bin Laden's call to force non-believers from Muslim territories.

The ongoing violence threatens to inflame strained relations between Buddhist-majority Thailand and Muslim-majority Malaysia, because Bangkok accuses Kuala Lumpur of not doing enough to stop suspected insurgents criss-crossing the porous border.

In July, the government clamped the south under a "state of emergency", in part using Article 17 - granting impunity to security forces so they cannot be prosecuted for killings or other acts while deployed. In August, when asked at a news conference if the decree was "a license to kill", Thaksin held up a toy sign marked with an X and sounded a toy's electronic beep to indicate the question was "not constructive".

Asked if international terrorists were involved in the south, the tense prime minister again held up his X sign and sounded his son's Japanese toy, a move that infuriated the media but which Thaksin defended as a stress-reliever to deal with "heavy" questions during the first of what he called the "PM meets the press" conferences.

Scores of Thai Muslim men are believed to have undergone guerrilla training or religious study in Afghanistan before the Taliban's collapse in 2001, and many returned to southern Thailand shunning the region's popular Sunni Islam - demanding instead the austere, retro-justice of Islam's Wahhabi sect, pushed by Saudi Arabia and Osama bin Laden.

Recent leaflets and word-of-mouth warnings in the south have called for all markets to shut on Fridays, Islam's traditional day of rest, or violators will be beheaded or have their ears chopped off. As a result, many businesses throughout the south have shut during the past several Fridays, either in fear or in sympathy.

A dozen people, mostly Buddhists, have been beheaded in seemingly random attacks in the south in a strategy "copied from the violence in Iraq", according to Thailand's Interior Minister Chidchai Vanasathidya.
Nobody even knows the exact object of the insurgency. No, this is not as simple as you make it out and simple brute-force is not going to quell the violence in the southern provinces.
Actually, yes we do know the object of the insurgency.

Supatra (In 2004):
In ours we have terrorist movement in southern provinces. For recent weeks we capture much documents from them. These speak openly of how they plan to cleanse these provinces of all who are not Islam. Open intention is any such who stay in those provinces will be made to convert to Islam or killed. Is impossible to make compromise with those who intend to cleanse world of you. And is very hard to find Islam people who disagree with doing this. Every time we arrest terrorists sometimes with guns in hand on way to make atatck we have protests demonstrations from people who want us to release such people.

A Reuters article from 2005:
BANGKOK (Reuters) - Muslim militants have beheaded two Lao migrant workers in Thailand's mainly Muslim south, police said on Sunday, believing it may be the same group that beheaded a Thai Buddhist teacher last week.

The bodies of the young Buddhist couple, who left neighboring Laos two months ago to work on a Thai chicken farm, were found on Saturday in Pattani province, one of three deep south provinces where more than 700 people have died in violence since January 2004.

"From our preliminary investigation, it could be the work of Muslim militants who earlier beheaded the retired Buddhist teacher in the same province," Pattani Police Major Uthai Chaimala told Reuters.

The killings raised the number of known decapitations of Buddhists to 7 since violence erupted 18 months ago in the region bordering Malaysia which has a century-long history of violent rebellion against Bangkok's rule.

In last week's killing, police found a note near the severed head of the 65-year old man that warned the government against arresting more Muslim suspects.

The note said the militants would kill two civilians for every innocent Muslim detained by the authorities without evidence, police said.


No note was found with the Lao couple.

"Beheading has now become part of the unrest in southern Thailand. Police are facing difficulty getting cooperation from local people. They are too afraid to report or provide us with any clues," Uthai said.

Muslim militants have carried out almost daily bomb attacks, arson and ambushes despite Bangkok's olive-branch approach in recent months.

The government of the mostly Buddhist country has imposed martial law in parts of Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat provinces, at the same time as offering lavish development aid and regional assistance.
Which is what happened in Iraq.
By that logic, the Surge wouldn't have succeeded. Yet it has.
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Post by SirNitram »

Shep, you are aware there's more to Iraq than Baghdad, right? And that the Surge was putting a crapload of troops into Baghdad?

Also 'Succeeded'? Laugh and a half. It's objectives were not met, as is shown by the lack of the election law that was supposed to pass.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The Surge "worked" by letting the Shia finish ethnically cleansing their neighborhoods in Baghdad. Hard to violence to continue when you've ran out of people to kill because they're all dead or have fled.
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

When the insurgents have local support, the only pure military solution is near complete depopulation. I'm sure it'd work after a Stalinist body count.

I'm not sure about the kind of armed forces to use, but the alternative strategy is to isolate and de-legitimatize the terrorist groups and starve them to death. The leaderships can be attacked directly, but an route of deescalation must be provided to its direct and indirect supporters. If not, they will keep fighting to the last men.
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Post by SirNitram »

The problem there, of course, is that the 'Awakening' was largely legitimizing, arming, and funding alot of groups that will go right back to fighting unless their pay demands are met.
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