Fail to comply? Get head placed to curb and smashed.

[SirNitram]

maybe, but it is more about not just jumping in and taking a single article as gospel and knowing that even if certain parts of the story printed are true, it is possible that some have been either misrepresented, omitted or misinterpreted.

Except.. It's not just one article. There's lots of articles about excessive force leading to death out there. There's several about excessive taser user leading to death. So this really does not wash, at all.

so how many articles have you seen on this particular incident? that is what I am referring to. I have not seen any updates. Those other articles/incidents don't really factor into what happened in this instance.

Why should a lack of updates and second articles impeach the quality of this one? Do you apply this standard universally, or just to your knee-jerk defense of brutality by certain members of society? You certainly never seem to demand other topics be backed up by other articles, so it's very clear this is an attempt to obstufucate. Indeed, a lack of updates or other articles would suggest this is accurate.

[Atavarius]

A small update.

Let the battle of the forensic pathologists begin.

Dr. Cyril H. Wecht will perform a second autopsy on a man who died after a confrontation with Swissvale police.

Howard Messer, a lawyer representing the family of Andre D. Thomas, yesterday confirmed that the noted forensic pathologist and former Allegheny County medical examiner has been retained by the Swissvale man's family.

An autopsy by the county medical examiner's office was inconclusive pending toxicology and other tests. However, both Medical Examiner Dr. Karl Williams and District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. have said Mr. Thomas' body bore no signs of excessive force.

Mr. Messer said photographs he has seen of Mr. Thomas's body tell a different story.

"There is evidence of trauma to the body," Mr. Messer said. He declined to elaborate.

Mr. Messer said he believed county officials were acting appropriately to investigate the circumstances surrounding Mr. Thomas's death Tuesday.

Dr. Wecht will likely perform the second post-mortem examination today between Mr. Thomas's funeral service and burial.

Dr. Williams also said it's not uncommon for families to request second autopsies, and he doesn't believe Dr. Wecht's examination will yield any dramatically new information.

"We did a complete autopsy," he said. "The findings are the findings."

Mr. Thomas was pronounced dead at 12:46 a.m. Tuesday at UPMC Braddock, less than an hour after scuffling with three Swissvale police officers on Hawthorne Avenue.

Police responded to numerous 911 calls of a man pounding on doors saying people were trying to kill him. Officers arrived, believing that Mr. Thomas might be a victim.

But things changed when police decided that Mr. Thomas was acting so irrationally he was a danger to himself and others, Mr. Zappala said.

When Mr. Thomas tried to run away, one officer shocked him with her Taser three times until he was incapacitated enough to be handcuffed. Even so, Mr. Zappala said Mr. Thomas demonstrated "almost superhuman" strength in resisting attempts to handcuff him.

Several witnesses said they saw police stomp and punch Mr. Thomas. Others told investigators from the Allegheny County Police that officers did not rough him up.

Mr. Zappala said Mr. Thomas's behavior and symptoms -- unusual strength, irrational behavior, dilated pupils, normal breathing that suddenly becomes labored and a normal pulse that rapidly weakens -- were similar to those exhibited in other people who died while in a state of "excited delirium" brought on by acute cocaine toxicity.

Investigators are looking into whether Mr. Thomas was high on the night of his death.

Toxicology tests are still weeks away from being available, but Mr. Zappala indicated that investigators were exploring the possibility that Mr. Thomas bought drugs in Braddock between 9 p.m. and 11 p.m., 50 minutes before his encounter with police. Paramedics at the scene treated him as a possible overdose.

Mr. Messer said Dr. Wecht will not be making any public statements about the results of his examination.

"He's under a confidentiality agreement with me not to talk to the media about this case," Mr. Messer said.

However, in an interview Thursday before he was retained, Dr. Wecht expressed skepticism about excited delirium -- especially if there is any indication of excessive force or positional asphyxia.

"Excited delirium is a convenient fallback for medical examiners, coroners and their forensic pathologists around the country," Dr. Wecht said.

"The convenient thing about that diagnosis is that it's not susceptible to scientific disproof. It's not susceptible to scientific proof, either. It's based on nothing more than anecdotal situations."

In cases of positional asphyxia, prolonged pressure on the back or neck while someone is prone -- such as while they are being handcuffed and restrained -- can cause death.

Mr. Zappala flatly stated this week that Mr. Thomas did not die from positional asphyxia. He said one Swissvale officer did put a knee to the small of Mr. Thomas's back while detaining him, but that Mr. Thomas was then sitting upright.

In addition to setting up the possibility of dueling autopsy reports that reach different conclusions, the hiring of Dr. Wecht puts him squarely at odds with an old nemesis: Mr. Zappala.

Dr. Wecht and Mr. Zappala have feuded for years, most significantly over the DA's successful move to end Dr. Wecht's ability to hold open inquests in cases of suspicious deaths.

When Dr. Wecht was still county coroner, he would routinely hold fact-finding hearings when people died while in police custody or at the hands of police. Those inquests were conducted as an independent investigation parallel to police probes.

Mr. Zappala effectively outmaneuvered Dr. Wecht and put an end to open inquests. He argued that coroner's inquests were duplicative, illegal and unnecessary and could compromise law enforcement investigations.

Even this week, Dr. Wecht touted the importance of an impartial, transparent fact-finding hearing in the case of a death like Mr. Thomas's.

[Death from the Sea]

Why should a lack of updates and second articles impeach the quality of this one?

because this one could have info misrepresented, omitted or misinterpreted, it is possible. Or maybe an update can shed light on events that were not really in the first place.

Indeed, a lack of updates or other articles would suggest this is accurate.

would it now? check the small update posted by Atavarius and if that article is to believed at current face value then it looks like a good probability that drugs were involved. Something the first article didn't say.

[SirNitram]

Why should a lack of updates and second articles impeach the quality of this one?

because this one could have info misrepresented, omitted or misinterpreted, it is possible. Or maybe an update can shed light on events that were not really in the first place.

Valid reasons for an update to be presented. All that's gone on so far is a rather inconclusive autopsy. Which does not validate your knee-jerking.

Indeed, a lack of updates or other articles would suggest this is accurate.

would it now? check the small update posted by Atavarius and if that article is to believed at current face value then it looks like a good probability that drugs were involved. Something the first article didn't say.

OH NOEZ! DRUGZ!

Well that settles it, they should have brought miniguns and just killed the guy at range.

You're not offering logical reasons.

[Keevan_Colton]

And if you read it, the first autopsy is by someone who supports "excited delerium" as a cause of death and opposes independent fact finding investigations. Hardly a ringing endorsement in my mind.

Anyone who objects to independent oversight is someone to watch very carefully.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Just why the fuck does this shit happens so much in the US?

I would be hard pressed to find a similar incident within the last ten years in german history. OTOH, stories of american police officers beating down, killing or being accused of killing people happens almost once a week. Just what the fuck is wrong with the american police?

Because they almost always get away with it. No repercussions besides few weeks suspension with pay.

Depends on the department, but in some US cities the "blue code of silence" is a serious problem.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And if you read it, the first autopsy is by someone who supports "excited delerium" as a cause of death and opposes independent fact finding investigations. Hardly a ringing endorsement in my mind.

Anyone who objects to independent oversight is someone to watch very carefully.

No, he opposes fact finding cases from Dr. Wecht who is a well known conspiracy theorist. He's one of the JFK conspiracy theorists biggest supporters.

All that's gone on so far is a rather inconclusive autopsy.

An autopsy by the county medical examiner's office was inconclusive pending toxicology and other tests. However, both Medical Examiner Dr. Karl Williams and District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. have said Mr. Thomas' body bore no signs of excessive force.

How is that inconclusive? It sounds like the medical examiner did make a conclusion.

Also, you have two stories from witnesses with some saying they did kick him on the ground and others saying they did not. Now the ME's office is saying there's no evidence of excessive physical force which is what I would consider curb stomping which is what the witnesses claimed occured.

[Viridian]

I think the toxicology reports will be interesting, especially if they find more than cocaine in his system. (I have a former sensei who used to be deputy sherriff, and about the only thing that could scare him was dealing with someone on angel dust.)

And any psychologist can tell you that eye witness testimony has very low reliability. People regularly fool themselves, yet we still have a tendency to assign such accounts more credibility than we should. (Sort of like anecdotal versus statistical evidence.)

If there was some recording of the incident, that would be different. But unless one turns up, we'll have to go off the autopsy. At least with two medical examiners who hate each other, they'll be picking apart each other's testimony and watching each other like hawks for mistakes.

[Death from the Sea]

Valid reasons for an update to be presented. All that's gone on so far is a rather inconclusive autopsy. Which does not validate your knee-jerking.

I don't see how my wanting to hear more of the story before making a determination of what actually happened is knee-jerking. I would say that those who just automatically start condemning the police here, without getting a better understanding of what happened are knee-jerking.

The article said that the autopsy was said to be inconclusive, pending the toxicology reports and other tests, which could easily provide a cause of death. It is inconclusive because it is not finished

[SirNitram]

It is part of your knee-jerking, not the knee-jerking itself. You demanding a new burden of proof.. Which would be Moving The Goalposts.. When police misconduct is involved, that's just fallacious.

Kami, it's very simple. Death From the Sea chose to talk about drugs. There's no answers on that yet. Inconclusive.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It is part of your knee-jerking, not the knee-jerking itself. You demanding a new burden of proof.. Which would be Moving The Goalposts.. When police misconduct is involved, that's just fallacious.

Kami, it's very simple. Death From the Sea chose to talk about drugs. There's no answers on that yet. Inconclusive.

Alright. The drug issue doesn't matter at all though. The police have been accused of excessive physical force which has been ruled out by the ME. The use of the taser wasn't reported as being excessive, and is within reasonable use.

[SirNitram]

It is part of your knee-jerking, not the knee-jerking itself. You demanding a new burden of proof.. Which would be Moving The Goalposts.. When police misconduct is involved, that's just fallacious.

Kami, it's very simple. Death From the Sea chose to talk about drugs. There's no answers on that yet. Inconclusive.

Alright. The drug issue doesn't matter at all though. The police have been accused of excessive physical force which has been ruled out by the ME. The use of the taser wasn't reported as being excessive, and is within reasonable use.

I'm obviously waiting on cause of death. Sorry, but the only certainties are 'They got him on the ground and held him there' and a short period later, he's dead. Unless tox-screen shows something, there's only one group responsible.

[Atavarius]

Since this happened pretty close to where I live (15 minutes away), I will post updates as I see them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'm obviously waiting on cause of death. Sorry, but the only certainties are 'They got him on the ground and held him there' and a short period later, he's dead. Unless tox-screen shows something, there's only one group responsible.

Right. He shouldn't have resisted. Do you believe he doesn't bare any responsibility? The evidence, and article is showing that the police acted within policy, did not abuse any of their tools, or use excessive physical force so why would you hold them accountable when it was he who caused the use of force by the police. ?

At what point is this person going to be held accountable for his actions? He was the one that refused to obey police orders? It sucks that he died, but he should have done as he was fucking told.

When you resist you're going to be held on the ground until the handcuffs are placed on you. That's how it's been done, and that's how it will always be done when dealing with someone who resists.

[SirNitram]

I'm obviously waiting on cause of death. Sorry, but the only certainties are 'They got him on the ground and held him there' and a short period later, he's dead. Unless tox-screen shows something, there's only one group responsible.

Right. He shouldn't have resisted. Do you believe he doesn't bare any responsibility? The evidence, and article is showing that the police acted within policy, did not abuse any of their tools, or use excessive physical force so why would you hold them accountable when it was he who caused the use of force by the police. ?

You'll have to show me the resistance that merited lethal response. Because like it or not, the man is dead. If drugs killed him, this is obviously retracted, but otherwise, show me the evidence.

At what point is this person going to be held accountable for his actions? He was the one that refused to obey police orders? It sucks that he died, but he should have done as he was fucking told.

Classic blame the victim.

When you resist you're going to be held on the ground until the handcuffs are placed on you. That's how it's been done, and that's how it will always be done when dealing with someone who resists.

You'll have to show me where I object to holding him on the ground. Oh wait, I don't. I simply point out after that point, he died. Witnesses report a blow to the head. When will the police be held responsible for that?

[Kamakazie Sith]

You'll have to show me the resistance that merited lethal response. Because like it or not, the man is dead. If drugs killed him, this is obviously retracted, but otherwise, show me the evidence.

What lethal response? Oh I get it someone died so whatever action no matter how slight is considered a lethal action. Gotcha.

Classic blame the victim.

Hey, I can play this game. I'll call it blaming the criminal for trying to break into homes, and then resisting arrest when caught.

My point still stands. His failure to follow police instructions resulted in the use of reasonable force which unintentionally resulted in his death.

You'll have to show me where I object to holding him on the ground. Oh wait, I don't. I simply point out after that point, he died. Witnesses report a blow to the head. When will the police be held responsible for that?

I never said you did. I was making a statement. If I thought you were against it I would have said "Why are you against this?"

As for the witness statements other witnesses reported that no such physical beating occurred and guess what their statements are backed by the findings from the medical examiner.

Witness statements are good when they corroborate evidence, but without evidence they are next to worthless because people lie all the time.

Several witnesses said they saw police stomp and punch Mr. Thomas. Others told investigators from the Allegheny County Police that officers did not rough him up.

It almost seems as if your ignoring the Medical Examiners findings? Maybe you didn't read it. I'll quote it one more time.

An autopsy by the county medical examiner's office was inconclusive pending toxicology and other tests. However, both Medical Examiner Dr. Karl Williams and District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. have said Mr. Thomas' body bore no signs of excessive force.

The part about him being curbed stomped, or punched in the head is not supported by physical evidence.

[SirNitram]

You'll have to show me the resistance that merited lethal response. Because like it or not, the man is dead. If drugs killed him, this is obviously retracted, but otherwise, show me the evidence.

What lethal response? Oh I get it someone died so whatever action no matter how slight is considered a lethal action. Gotcha.

Well a response that caused death occoured. What else shall I call it?

Classic blame the victim.

Hey, I can play this game. I'll call it blaming the criminal for trying to break into homes, and then resisting arrest when caught.

My point still stands. His failure to follow police instructions resulted in the use of reasonable force which unintentionally resulted in his death.

While you play games, perhaps you'll explain how one can 'hold responsible' a corpse. Or perhaps you'll someday admit you're just playing games and nothing else. Like things with logic.

You'll have to show me where I object to holding him on the ground. Oh wait, I don't. I simply point out after that point, he died. Witnesses report a blow to the head. When will the police be held responsible for that?

I never said you did. I was making a statement. If I thought you were against it I would have said "Why are you against this?"

As for the witness statements other witnesses reported that no such physical beating occurred and guess what their statements are backed by the findings from the medical examiner.

Witness statements are good when they corroborate evidence, but without evidence they are next to worthless because people lie all the time.

Several witnesses said they saw police stomp and punch Mr. Thomas. Others told investigators from the Allegheny County Police that officers did not rough him up.

It almost seems as if your ignoring the Medical Examiners findings? Maybe you didn't read it. I'll quote it one more time.

An autopsy by the county medical examiner's office was inconclusive pending toxicology and other tests. However, both Medical Examiner Dr. Karl Williams and District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. have said Mr. Thomas' body bore no signs of excessive force.

The part about him being curbed stomped, or punched in the head is not supported by physical evidence.

'No excessive force' != 'No blows to the skull resulting in death'. C'mon, do you fail basic reading comprehension as well?

[The Yosemite Bear]

now unless this is N.O. police or some other haven of redneck currupt assholes with a reputation for this kind of shit, I have a hard time seeing this as anything but faulty witness time. After all the FBI has a tendancy to investigate police brutality claims somewhat....

[Kamakazie Sith]

Well a response that caused death occoured. What else shall I call it?

A lethal response is an action that is likely to cause serious bodily injury or death. What they did was not a lethal response. It was a reasonable response that had a very unfortunate and unintended result.

While you play games, perhaps you'll explain how one can 'hold responsible' a corpse. Or perhaps you'll someday admit you're just playing games and nothing else. Like things with logic.

So, according to you because he's dead his actions don't matter?

'No excessive force' != 'No blows to the skull resulting in death'. C'mon, do you fail basic reading comprehension as well?

Blows to the head that are hard enough to cause death is excessive force. Excessive force is force that is not justified by the persons actions. If they were using force that was likely to cause death against this person who was simply resisting arrest then it is excessive. The medical examiner ruled this out.

I don't fail basic reading comprehension, but you do fail when it comes to basic terminology. Perhaps, you should attend a citizens academy at your local police department and get brought up to speed.

[SirNitram]

Because he's dead, he can't be 'held responsible', which you were lamenting wasn't possible. I suppose, if you were obsessed with theatrics you could roll the corpse through the entire parade of justice, Weekend At Bernie's style, but that's just an exercise in stupidity.

But really, this is getting ridiculous. Perhaps if there was a reason to trust the police, I would attend this silly Academy, but then again, I have more important things to do with my life than learn specific terms so I can play One-Up with pedants. Your argument is simple: Without sufficient data, you want to blame him, and not the cops. It was a reflexive action, ergo, knee-jerk defense.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Because he's dead, he can't be 'held responsible', which you were lamenting wasn't possible. I suppose, if you were obsessed with theatrics you could roll the corpse through the entire parade of justice, Weekend At Bernie's style, but that's just an exercise in stupidity.

You and I are on a different page about regarding holding him responsible. I wasn't recommending the ridiculous scenario you just described nor anything even remotely close to it.

You seem to have a strange logic that if someone dies their actions are completely irrelevant even if those actions led up to their death.

That doesn't mean he deserved to die, but it doesn't mean the police are responsible because the evidence shows that the force used by them was not excessive.

But really, this is getting ridiculous. Perhaps if there was a reason to trust the police, I would attend this silly Academy, but then again, I have more important things to do with my life than learn specific terms so I can play One-Up with pedants. Your argument is simple: Without sufficient data, you want to blame him, and not the cops. It was a reflexive action, ergo, knee-jerk defense.

I agree it is ridiculous. You don't have anything to support your stupid belief that the police used excessive force except conflicting witnesses statements which are not supported by the evidence obtained from the medical examiner.

As for the terms it's just so you don't sound like a fucking retard when you discuss things like excessive force, and reasonable force in a legal setting. If you don't want to attend a citizens academy then pick up a fucking law book. Jesus H Christ. Requiring someone to know what the fuck they're talking about is not an unreasonable request.

What's this dishonest bullshit about you claiming my argument is about insufficient data? I've been saying all along we have sufficient data but you have been ignoring it throughout this entire thread without addressing it. Are you even reading my posts? Obviously not because you didn't address any of it.

[SirNitram]

Because he's dead, he can't be 'held responsible', which you were lamenting wasn't possible. I suppose, if you were obsessed with theatrics you could roll the corpse through the entire parade of justice, Weekend At Bernie's style, but that's just an exercise in stupidity.

You and I are on a different page about regarding holding him responsible. I wasn't recommending the ridiculous scenario you just described nor anything even remotely close to it.

You seem to have a strange logic that if someone dies their actions are completely irrelevant even if those actions led up to their death.

That doesn't mean he deserved to die, but it doesn't mean the police are responsible because the evidence shows that the force used by them was not excessive.

And if the cause of death is later concluded to be the blow to the head? I remind you of your own words:

Blows to the head that are hard enough to cause death is excessive force.

I'm simply looking at availiable data. I do not rush off to assume 'DRUGS!' just because they sent in the tox-screen.

But really, this is getting ridiculous. Perhaps if there was a reason to trust the police, I would attend this silly Academy, but then again, I have more important things to do with my life than learn specific terms so I can play One-Up with pedants. Your argument is simple: Without sufficient data, you want to blame him, and not the cops. It was a reflexive action, ergo, knee-jerk defense.

I agree it is ridiculous. You don't have anything to support your stupid belief that the police used excessive force except conflicting witnesses statements which are not supported by the evidence obtained from the medical examiner.

As for the terms it's just so you don't sound like a fucking retard when you discuss things like excessive force, and reasonable force in a legal setting. If you don't want to attend a citizens academy then pick up a fucking law book. Jesus H Christ. Requiring someone to know what the fuck they're talking about is not an unreasonable request.

What's this dishonest bullshit about you claiming my argument is about insufficient data? I've been saying all along we have sufficient data but you have been ignoring it throughout this entire thread without addressing it. Are you even reading my posts? Obviously not because you didn't address any of it.

No, I am reading and addressing your posts. What you fail to grasp is that I simply find the dual position of you claiming 'No excessive force' and yet saying a blow to the head that causes death is excessive force, given that unless some, you know, evidence shows up it was something else, it's the act we know immediately preceded death.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And if the cause of death is later concluded to be the blow to the head? I remind you of your own words:

What do you mean later? The Medical Examiner has already completed that portion of his investigation, and has made a conclusion.

If you're refering to the examination that will be done by Dr. Wecht then you'll be waiting a long time because that one will not be released to the media.

However, if for some reason it is released or another one is done and that is founded then I'll be the first to concede you won't have to remind me.

I'm simply looking at availiable data. I do not rush off to assume 'DRUGS!' just because they sent in the tox-screen.

Neither did I. I wouldn't be surprised if the toxiocology report came back negative. You're blending our discussion with the one you've been having with DbtS.

No, I am reading and addressing your posts. What you fail to grasp is that I simply find the dual position of you claiming 'No excessive force' and yet saying a blow to the head that causes death is excessive force, given that unless some, you know, evidence shows up it was something else, it's the act we know immediately preceded death.

My position is that of the medical examiners. I tried to explain to you that a blow to the head which is hard enough to cause death would be considered excessive force by the medical examiner.

This is why I recommended you get caught up on you terminology.

[SirNitram]

Sith, one last time. All I am waiting for is the tox-screen back and a 'Cause Of Death'. Logic and parsimony suggests the blow to the head; it's the act most recent before life is extinguished and blows to the head can kill without intention. If there is another Cause Of Death given, I'll concede. That you think you can twist my words into waiting for another report I know won't be released is kinda sad.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Sith, one last time. All I am waiting for is the tox-screen back and a 'Cause Of Death'. Logic and parsimony suggests the blow to the head; it's the act most recent before life is extinguished and blows to the head can kill without intention. If there is another Cause Of Death given, I'll concede. That you think you can twist my words into waiting for another report I know won't be released is kinda sad.

LOL come on Nitram. I didn't twist your words. I did not realize that the cause of death was pending. I was asking you...hence the question mark, and multiple inquiries as to what you were talking about? I incorrectly thought they had determined that the cause of death would remain unknown hence the reason why they listed "excited delirium".

As for the act most recent before death how do you know what the act was? What timeline have you had established, and from whom? The only ones that have said there were blows to head were conflicting witnesses statments.

Anyway, we'll have to revisit this when the toxicology report comes back.