Keevan_Colton wrote:And if you read it, the first autopsy is by someone who supports "excited delerium" as a cause of death and opposes independent fact finding investigations. Hardly a ringing endorsement in my mind.
Anyone who objects to independent oversight is someone to watch very carefully.
No, he opposes fact finding cases from Dr. Wecht who is a well known conspiracy theorist. He's one of the JFK conspiracy theorists biggest supporters.
That has precisely bugger all to do with this. Zappa, the DA has taken action on the grounds that such independent investigation and oversight is illegal. Asking questions is unamerican dontcha' know?
This has nothing to do with Wecht himself or his views (though looking into the history, this isnt the first time there's been a particular issue with a death in police custody under Zappa's oversight. As coroner in a past case Wecht presented evidence that a death was caused by positional asphyxiation though Zappa decided not to press charges against the officer involved. He then brought legal action against Wecht for supplying his findings to the family of the boy that died for use in their civil case against the state...which might be why Zappa is screeching about it not being positional asphyxiation this time despite that being largely unrelated to headwounds...)
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SirNitram wrote:Sith, one last time. All I am waiting for is the tox-screen back and a 'Cause Of Death'. Logic and parsimony suggests the blow to the head; it's the act most recent before life is extinguished and blows to the head can kill without intention. If there is another Cause Of Death given, I'll concede. That you think you can twist my words into waiting for another report I know won't be released is kinda sad.
Nitram, if a blow to the head was sufficient to cause death, it would presumably had been hard enough to inflict some form of visible injury that would had been listed as being excessive force.
Unless your believe that the ME here is covering up for the police, there isn't a reason to believe that the blow to the head led directly to his death, unless we're talking about factors that are unforseeable, such as the person being a hemophiliac or some other underlying medical condition.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
Sounds kinda like "prove that it wasn't excessive force/abuse, despite the evidence". Huh.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
PainRack wrote:
Nitram, if a blow to the head was sufficient to cause death, it would presumably had been hard enough to inflict some form of visible injury that would had been listed as being excessive force.
Read the original article again. While it may not have been the blow itself, I can easily see how someone could die from the stress by being forced to remain in that kind of position after being repeatedly tased and punched to the head. Either way, I have a hard time seeing how it's anything but excessive force unless the police use some kind of bizarre bullshit definition that's different from everyone else.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
General Zod wrote:
Read the original article again. While it may not have been the blow itself, I can easily see how someone could die from the stress by being forced to remain in that kind of position after being repeatedly tased and punched to the head. Either way, I have a hard time seeing how it's anything but excessive force unless the police use some kind of bizarre bullshit definition that's different from everyone else.
Why? Reasonable force is the force needed to subdue a suspect. Just like the non-lethal weapons threads, just saying non-lethal or reasonable force doesn't automatically mean no harm can possibly happen to the suspect especially if they themselves add to the situation.
If the suspect ups the escalation the police up the force and it is still reasonable. Until a cause of death can be determined and it shows excessive force how the hell can you just leap to it?
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Knife wrote:
Why? Reasonable force is the force needed to subdue a suspect. Just like the non-lethal weapons threads, just saying non-lethal or reasonable force doesn't automatically mean no harm can possibly happen to the suspect especially if they themselves add to the situation.
If the suspect ups the escalation the police up the force and it is still reasonable. Until a cause of death can be determined and it shows excessive force how the hell can you just leap to it?
How is punching someone in the back of the head at all necessary when they've already been handcuffed and held to the ground by several officers, after being tased? I'm failing to see how the suspect can possibly be a threat at that point.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
General Zod wrote:
How is punching someone in the back of the head at all necessary when they've already been handcuffed and held to the ground by several officers, after being tased? I'm failing to see how the suspect can possibly be a threat at that point.
*sigh* In every thread like this it comes up and in every thread it's explained. Have you ever tried to hold someone down who really fucking doesn't want to? It is not an easy thing, even with multiple people. That is why it is considered reasonable for police to use force to subdue a suspect.
I have no problem with cops who abuse their positions getting the book thrown at them but on the other hand when people start screeching about no hitting and no tasers and no dog piles, it gets to the point of 'what do you want the police to use? Bad language?'
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
General Zod wrote:
How is punching someone in the back of the head at all necessary when they've already been handcuffed and held to the ground by several officers, after being tased? I'm failing to see how the suspect can possibly be a threat at that point.
*sigh* In every thread like this it comes up and in every thread it's explained. Have you ever tried to hold someone down who really fucking doesn't want to? It is not an easy thing, even with multiple people. That is why it is considered reasonable for police to use force to subdue a suspect.
I have no problem with cops who abuse their positions getting the book thrown at them but on the other hand when people start screeching about no hitting and no tasers and no dog piles, it gets to the point of 'what do you want the police to use? Bad language?'
Especially if that person is mentally ill or on drugs. Clearly something was wrong with this guy if he was banging on doors screaming that someone was trying to kill him.
General Zod wrote:
How is punching someone in the back of the head at all necessary when they've already been handcuffed and held to the ground by several officers, after being tased? I'm failing to see how the suspect can possibly be a threat at that point.
*sigh* In every thread like this it comes up and in every thread it's explained. Have you ever tried to hold someone down who really fucking doesn't want to? It is not an easy thing, even with multiple people. That is why it is considered reasonable for police to use force to subdue a suspect.
I have no problem with cops who abuse their positions getting the book thrown at them but on the other hand when people start screeching about no hitting and no tasers and no dog piles, it gets to the point of 'what do you want the police to use? Bad language?'
4 cops and he was already on the ground. There's no reason to have to punch his head into the concrete with all his might.
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ArmorPierce wrote:4 cops and he was already on the ground. There's no reason to have to punch his head into the concrete with all his might.
See, you're assuming that by having four guys on him he is magically unable to resist and it isn't that way in real life. Look no further than 'Don't Taz me bro' in that he had three on him plus tased and he was still able to wiggle around.
Subduing doesn't stop at some magical number of people involved nor does it end with the click of handcuffs, people can still be a threat to themselves, people around them and the officers themselves after being tased, handcuffed and/or roughed up a bit.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Keevan_Colton wrote:
That has precisely bugger all to do with this. Zappa, the DA has taken action on the grounds that such independent investigation and oversight is illegal. Asking questions is unamerican dontcha' know?
Oh? I'm sorry I thought we were trying to destroy the credibility of persons based on things they've said in your case you tried to destroy the credibility of the medical examiner in this case because Zappa used the words "excited delirium". So, if you're feel you can destroy the credibility of the medical examiner because the attorney general used a controversial term then I felt it was fair to show that Dr. Wecht is a conspiracy theorist nut job, and routinely takes on controversial subjects just for the fight.
This has nothing to do with Wecht himself or his views (though looking into the history, this isnt the first time there's been a particular issue with a death in police custody under Zappa's oversight. As coroner in a past case Wecht presented evidence that a death was caused by positional asphyxiation though Zappa decided not to press charges against the officer involved. He then brought legal action against Wecht for supplying his findings to the family of the boy that died for use in their civil case against the state...which might be why Zappa is screeching about it not being positional asphyxiation this time despite that being largely unrelated to headwounds...)
Maybe charges weren't justified? I realize that's too much for you to consider, but that's a distinct possibility. Unless you can show the police officers were negligent or excessive what would you charge them with? Make something up because someone died?
PainRack wrote:
Nitram, if a blow to the head was sufficient to cause death, it would presumably had been hard enough to inflict some form of visible injury that would had been listed as being excessive force.
Read the original article again. While it may not have been the blow itself, I can easily see how someone could die from the stress by being forced to remain in that kind of position after being repeatedly tased and punched to the head. Either way, I have a hard time seeing how it's anything but excessive force unless the police use some kind of bizarre bullshit definition that's different from everyone else.
The police just don't get to make terms up. Excessive force is clearly defined as force used that was not reasonable based off the arrested persons level of resistance.
You, and others, have yet to provide any evidence that their force used was unreasonable or excessive. In fact at this point you are going against the evidence. It's like you can't accept the medical examiners statement just because someone died.
Knife wrote:
Why? Reasonable force is the force needed to subdue a suspect. Just like the non-lethal weapons threads, just saying non-lethal or reasonable force doesn't automatically mean no harm can possibly happen to the suspect especially if they themselves add to the situation.
If the suspect ups the escalation the police up the force and it is still reasonable. Until a cause of death can be determined and it shows excessive force how the hell can you just leap to it?
How is punching someone in the back of the head at all necessary when they've already been handcuffed and held to the ground by several officers, after being tased? I'm failing to see how the suspect can possibly be a threat at that point.
You're getting this information from conflicting witnesses statements. One side is saying this happened and the other side is saying it didn't. Again, how are you coming to the conclusion that it DID in fact happen again in the face of the medical examiners statement.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
You're getting this information from conflicting witnesses statements. One side is saying this happened and the other side is saying it didn't. Again, how are you coming to the conclusion that it DID in fact happen again in the face of the medical examiners statement.
Someone died while the police were restraining them, after being tased and hit repeatedly. Exactly what other kind of conclusion can someone make except that they used too much (read: excessive), force? It's always possible there was some other underlying medical cause, but so far there's been no evidence to suggest one.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
You're getting this information from conflicting witnesses statements. One side is saying this happened and the other side is saying it didn't. Again, how are you coming to the conclusion that it DID in fact happen again in the face of the medical examiners statement.
Someone died while the police were restraining them, after being tased and hit repeatedly. Exactly what other kind of conclusion can someone make except that they used too much (read: excessive), force? It's always possible there was some other underlying medical cause, but so far there's been no evidence to suggest one.
This is just weird to me. I agree they are still waiting on the toxicology report, but this statement is not without value.
An autopsy by the county medical examiner's office was inconclusive pending toxicology and other tests. However, both Medical Examiner Dr. Karl Williams and District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. have said Mr. Thomas' body bore no signs of excessive force.
Can you see that or is there a big blank space where a paragraph should be? I kind of feel like people simply don't care about this statement.
Has it occoured to you, Sith, that perhaps people doubt the statement? Barring additional evidence, the only feasible causes of death involve the actions taken by the police.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Can you see that or is there a big blank space where a paragraph should be? I kind of feel like people simply don't care about this statement.
If you'd bothered reading their description yourself, they said there was no signs of excessive force. What this might mean in police-coroner talk I have no idea, but it hardly rules out the fact that force was, in fact, used. Since there has been no other explanation offered I'm not sure what makes you think we can draw any other conclusions.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
SirNitram wrote:Has it occoured to you, Sith, that perhaps people doubt the statement? Barring additional evidence, the only feasible causes of death involve the actions taken by the police.
Indeed, however that conclusion in and of itself does not automatically lead to excessive force or even lethal force for an abuse charge.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
SirNitram wrote:Has it occoured to you, Sith, that perhaps people doubt the statement? Barring additional evidence, the only feasible causes of death involve the actions taken by the police.
Indeed, however that conclusion in and of itself does not automatically lead to excessive force or even lethal force for an abuse charge.
That's a distinction I'll leave to others, specifically, those who could or would press charges. However, ignoring that the evidence points to the police causing the death is what I said at the very beginning, where the article talked about looking for a cause of death, and my comment said the blow to the head might have helped.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:Has it occoured to you, Sith, that perhaps people doubt the statement? Barring additional evidence, the only feasible causes of death involve the actions taken by the police.
It's obvious that they do. I want to understand justification for doing so. Let's put it this way. A blow to the head or many blows to the head that resulted in death would have caused significant damage, and should have been deemed excessive force by the medical examiner.
See the "Yet More Police Brutality" thread for a good example of those types of strikes to the head. Teeth missing, etc.
SirNitram wrote:Has it occoured to you, Sith, that perhaps people doubt the statement? Barring additional evidence, the only feasible causes of death involve the actions taken by the police.
It's obvious that they do. I want to understand justification for doing so. Let's put it this way. A blow to the head or many blows to the head that resulted in death would have caused significant damage, and should have been deemed excessive force by the medical examiner.
See the "Yet More Police Brutality" thread for a good example of those types of strikes to the head. Teeth missing, etc.
Hitting someone in the back of the head isn't necessarily going to cause visibly obvious damage. It's also entirely possible that the cop who was standing on his back was pushing down so hard it made his breathing difficult, which only exacerbated the problem. (Which I doubt would have left obvious signs either).
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Can you see that or is there a big blank space where a paragraph should be? I kind of feel like people simply don't care about this statement.
If you'd bothered reading their description yourself, they said there was no signs of excessive force. What this might mean in police-coroner talk I have no idea, but it hardly rules out the fact that force was, in fact, used. Since there has been no other explanation offered I'm not sure what makes you think we can draw any other conclusions.
I don't think anyone is saying that no force was used, but that if the forced used was deemed by evidence to be not excessive, then that would mean the force used was reasonable and not too much.
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General Zod wrote:
Hitting someone in the back of the head isn't necessarily going to cause visibly obvious damage. It's also entirely possible that the cop who was standing on his back was pushing down so hard it made his breathing difficult, which only exacerbated the problem. (Which I doubt would have left obvious signs either).
You obviously haven't seen to many strikes to the back of the head. Skin trauma, bruising, and heaving bleeding.
Unrelated example - Head wounds can result in some unfortunate surprises. A girl I knew was on a four wheeler at the sand dunes and her hair got caught in the wheels. It pulled most of her hair out, and she bled to death before help could arrive.
I'm not a medical examiner, but according to the second article it does indicate that positional asphyxia does leave behind evidence. Which Mr. Zappa flat out stated was not the cause. He might be lying of course.
General Zod wrote:
Hitting someone in the back of the head isn't necessarily going to cause visibly obvious damage. It's also entirely possible that the cop who was standing on his back was pushing down so hard it made his breathing difficult, which only exacerbated the problem. (Which I doubt would have left obvious signs either).
Barring medical conditions such as hemophilia, head injuries are obvious in the hands of a competant medical examiner. Contusions, deformities, even bruises would had been noticeable.
For the later, I would presume that bruising in the back would had been an indicator.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
