Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Broomstick]

It is terribly childish of me, but part of me can't stop grinning gleefully every time I see George W. Bush stampfoot in impotent rage over this "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence on the part Russia. Oh no, a superpower is giving the UN the finger and doing whatever the hell it pleases -- and it isn't the USA! The humanity!

What's that saying again? "What comes around, goes around"? Sounds about right to me. Of course the immense irony of his statements is probably lost on Mr. Bush entirely, but still.

It's not simply childish of you, it is in-humane and brutal. I for one am pretty sick that everywhere on the internet I look for a proper debate on this, it has turned into yet an other America thread, when the reality is this has very little to do with the US and everything to do with a very real and scary change of tactics by a power that is dangerously out of control and possibly lurching the world back to the Cold War days. It shows how dangerously out of touch some people are that they can no longer differentiate right or wrong: if it gives America a bloody nose, it must be good and should be defended.

Given that the US has been flouting the rules for the past 6 or 7 years - invading other countries, detaining people indefinitely without charge, sending captives to remote locations for various forms of torture, and so on - accusations of Russia being "out of control" is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Suck up the fact that the Russians are certainly no worse than the US, and over the past few years arguably better than the US. Of course it hurts to admit your nation is in the wrong, but adults can handle painful truths. Are you adult enough to do that?

Yes, it DOES have to do with the US, albeit not as directly as some other affairs on the international stage. Georgia did this in part believing the US would back them up to the point of openly confronting Russia on the battlefield. Where did they get that notion? Did the US government hint at that, or is it entirely the delusion of the Georgia government?

This is NOT a change in Russian tactics, and far more mild than what historically occurred in the USSR days. The US - as pointed out several times in this thread - could be accused of similar actions in the former Yugoslavia

The US is so very powerful in the world that we affect things unintentionally but still very dramatically at times. To pretend otherwise is willful ignorance. As it happens, Russia, China, and possibly a few others wield similar influence. While there are perks to such power, there is also additional responsibility that one's actions not have unintended negatives consequences. Regrettably (and that's a mild word for it) the current US administration is oblivious to that notion.

If the US feels justified in invading Iraq and deposing Saddam Hussein when NO American citizens are directly threatened then how can you say the Russians are unjustified in coming to the aid of Russians who are actually being killed and maimed by invading Georgia? That was one of the dangers mentioned prior to entering Iraq a few years ago, that other people would use that invasion to justify unilateral action of their own, up to and including forcible regime change. How can you argue it is justifiable for the US and not for Russia?

Given that Russia is quite capable of turning Georgia into a parking lot using merely conventional arms you can hardly say their actions were entirely unrestrained. I honestly don't know if the Russia response was "proportional" or not because I am willing to admit I still don't have sufficient information to make a decision. If stories of Georgians crushing South Ossetian civilians under tank treads have any truth I might even want to applaud the Russians for stepping in and preventing worse horrors. On the other hand, I'd like to see independent confirmation of such stories before concluding the Georgians are monsters.

[Broomstick]

The Georgians started this thing and got totally owned. The anti-Russian bias int the media is amazing.

Which is ironic in the US, given how often we are the victim of anti-American bias ourselves. The Big Empire is always in the wrong, be it US or Russia.

Russia had far, far better justification for what they did here than America did in Iraq.

Agreed.

I opposed the war before it ever occurred. I could not see a moral or legal justification for invading Iraq and deposing Saddam, however much I was happy to see him go. He was a bad, bad man - but the way he was removed from power was ALSO a bad way to do it.

[Darth Wong]

Too bad the Americans couldn't think of this "proportionality" argument when they were wildly cheerleading the Israelis as they bombed the shit out of Lebanon and promised to "turn the clock back 20 years" over a handful of Israeli soldiers being killed or captured.

The fact is that America has no right to claim a moral leadership role. Nobody outside the country sees it as the beacon of freedom, human rights, and morality that its own people seem to think it is. Anything they accuse anyone else of doing, others can accuse them of either doing themselves or condoning when their allies did it.

[K. A. Pital]

Considering the kind of bullshit reports Georgia engaged in ("Russia has taken most of Georgia", "Russia has taken Gori", "Russia has taken Poti" and finally "Russia is advancing on Tbilisi"), not one but ALL of which turned out to be total bullshit, I can't say I hold much hopes for Georgia's international image.

Even the usual media soothing won't be able to explain why, if Russia is "the agressor", it stopped just as soon as it covered S.Ossetia and controlled all territories with Russian citizens on them.

[Knife]

There are no Russians in Bagda...er Tbilisi.

[Broomstick]

The fact is that America has no right to claim a moral leadership role. Nobody outside the country sees it as the beacon of freedom, human rights, and morality that its own people seem to think it is. Anything they accuse anyone else of doing, others can accuse them of either doing themselves or condoning when their allies did it.

Personally, I think we'd have more credibility if we were at least willing to own up to our mistakes on the international field.

Really, even through these issues existed before September 2001, 9/11 was a big turning point for this hypocrisy to take over US actions on the international scene. The way the Bush Administration squandered international goodwill is criminal. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds. Sadly, I don't see how any of the responsible parties will ever be brought to justice.

[Darth Wong]

The way the Bush Administration squandered international goodwill is criminal. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds. Sadly, I don't see how any of the responsible parties will ever be brought to justice.

Unfortunately, they are already preaching their excuse, which is that this international goodwill never existed in the first place and everyone has always "hated" America just as much as they do now. It's completely false of course, but they will repeat it continuously for the next 20 years until it is taken as common knowledge. It's the conservative modus operandi.

[Broomstick]

Considering the kind of bullshit reports Georgia engaged in ("Russia has taken most of Georgia", "Russia has taken Gori", "Russia has taken Poti" and finally "Russia is advancing on Tbilisi"), not one but ALL of which turned out to be total bullshit, I can't say I hold much hopes for Georgia's international image.

Even the usual media soothing won't be able to explain why, if Russia is "the agressor", it stopped just as soon as it covered S.Ossetia and controlled all territories with Russian citizens on them.

I do know that broadcast TV news (outside of Fox) in the US is more and more speaking of the Georgians starting this and rumors of Georgian atrocities towards Ossetians. It's still not as impartial as I'd like, but it's getting better. After reading some of the comments to articles I think the US media were called on the carpet by some Americans saying "How come most of the other media outlets in the world have a different story than you do?" Also, some very blunt comments along the lines of "You're reporting is wrong - the Georgians started it." I think perhaps that some basic fact-checking showed that the Georgians weren't as honest as first thought.

Even if the media doesn't show it up, the world governments are going to know what went down in Georgia. Sensible governments are not going to be eager to deal with idiots who start wars with superpowers, then expect others to bail them out.

I'm guessing Georgia is going to lose those two provinces for good.

[Guardsman Bass]

So it's winding down, then. Good, that means that Georgia got the well-deserved ass-kicking for making an idiotic move like this, Saakashvili just got an unintentional education (or will lose his job the next time around, assuming he doesn't shut down the opposition), and the US can breathe a sigh of relief.

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't bat an eyelash if Russia outright annexed Abhezia and South Ossetia right now; Georgia would be pissed, but what can they do?

[Tiriol]

So it's winding down, then. Good, that means that Georgia got the well-deserved ass-kicking for making an idiotic move like this, Saakashvili just got an unintentional education (or will lose his job the next time around, assuming he doesn't shut down the opposition), and the US can breathe a sigh of relief.

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't bat an eyelash if Russia outright annexed Abhezia and South Ossetia right now; Georgia would be pissed, but what can they do?

It seems unlikely that Saakashvili will be ousted or that he would lose elections; according to the TV news here, Georgia is currently engulfed in nationalism and "need to be together". Bush managed to remain President for another round under same circumanstances and unlike the US citizens, Georgians actually have a huge "enemy" at their borders (thanks to their idiotic leadership).

According to same news, South Ossetia at least has shown willingness to be annexed by Russia.

[Block]

Oh I'd say they had a huge enemy on their borders before all this. Russia has been prodding at them for years. Unless you consider issuing Russian passports to foreign citizens in an attempt to get them to seceed a completely benign act.

[K. A. Pital]

Unless you consider issuing Russian passports to foreign citizens in an attempt to get them to seceed a completely benign act.

"In an attempt to get them to secede"? Dude, Georgia fought a war with Abkhazia and S. Ossetia in the early 1990s. They already seceded.

Issuing them Russian passports was required for another goal: to be able to use the Russian military for defense of S.Ossetian and Abkhazian military objects, under the pretext that Russian citizens are under attack.

As far as I know, the population has been more than willing to have Russian passports than the passports of Georgia - the nation which attacked them in the early 1990s, so the South Ossetians were willing allies and active supporters of the Russian military, both back then and now.

[Broomstick]

Wouldn't having Russian passports make it much easier for Ossetians to flee into Russia in the event hostilities break out - as indeed happened?

Seems to me that if large numbers of Ossetians decided beforehand that Russia would be a better bolthole than Georgia that says volumes about the situation on the ground. After all, the Russians didn't hand out tens of thousands of passports in the last week, this was something the Ossetians opted for over the course of many years. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but no one forced any Ossetians to take Russia passports, right?

Looks to me that the Ossetians had already decided to opt for Russia rather than Georgia. I guess the question is going forward whether South Ossetia is autonomous or becomes part of Russia, it seems they already decided they weren't part of Georgia.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, the Georgians have refused the Russian demand that the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia be placed on the table, but the Russians are holding to a unilateral ceasefire, though there are reports of occasional harrying attacks by remnant Georgian forces on the Russians, of course. It seems that in light of the Georgian refusal to accept their defeat and the fact that they've lost South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the next step will be the convening of the parliaments of Abkhazia and South Ossetia to formally declare their requests for annexation to Russia, and then the Duma will approve them.

It'll be interesting to see what the international reaction to such a unilateral annexation will be. Also hilarious when the USA invariably condemns it strongly despite the fact we supported the Israeli unilateral annexations of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

[Straha]

So, according to the AP, the U.S. and some other members of the G8 are thinking of kicking Russia out of it as punishment. And NATO might cancel a joint exercise with Russia as well.

WASHINGTON (AP) - Scrambling to find ways to punish Russia for its invasion of pro-Western Georgia, the United States and its allies are considering expelling Moscow from an exclusive club of powerful nations and canceling an upcoming joint NATO-Russia military exercise, Bush administration officials said Tuesday.

But with little leverage in the face of an emboldened Moscow, Washington and its friends have been forced to face the uncomfortable reality that their options are limited to mainly symbolic measures, such as boycotting Russian-hosted meetings and events, that may have little or no long-term impact on Russia's behavior, the officials said.

With the situation on the ground still unclear after Russian President Dmitri Medvedev on Tuesday ordered a halt to military action in Georgia, U.S. officials were focused primarily on confirming a ceasefire and attending to Georgia's urgent humanitarian needs following five days of fierce fighting, including Russian attacks on civilian targets.

"It is very important now that all parties cease fire," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said. "The Georgians have agreed to a ceasefire, the Russians need to stop their military operations as they have apparently said that they will, but those military operations really do now need to stop because calm needs to be restored."

At the same time, however, President Bush and his top aides were engaged in frantic consultations with European and other nations over how best to demonstrate their fierce condemnations of the Russian operation that began in Georgia's separatist region of South Ossetia, expanded to another disputed area, Abkhazia, and ended up on purely Georgian soil.

"The idea is to show the Russians that it is no longer business as usual," said one senior official familiar with the consultations among world leaders that were going on primarily by phone and in person at NATO headquarters in Brussels where alliance diplomats met together and then with representatives of Georgia.

For now, the Bush administration decided to boycott a third meeting at NATO on Tuesday at which the alliance's governing board, the North Atlantic Council, was preparing for a meeting with a Russian delegation that has been called at Moscow's request, officials said.

On the table for future action is the possible cancellation or U.S. withdrawal from a major NATO naval exercise with Russia that is scheduled to begin Friday, the officials said. Sailors and vessels from Britain, France, Russia, and the U.S. were to take part in the annual Russia-NATO exercise aimed at improving cooperation in maritime security.

The exercise, which is being hosted by Russia this year, began a decade ago and typically involves around 1,000 personnel from the four countries, the officials said.

In the medium term, the United States and its partners in the Group of Seven, or G-7, the club of the world's leading industrialized nations that also includes Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan, are debating whether to effectively disband what is known as the "G-8," which incorporates Russia, by throwing Moscow out, the officials said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because no decisions have yet been made and consultations with other countries involved are still ongoing.

Bush spoke on Monday and Tuesday with fellow G-7 leaders as well as the heads of democratically elected pro-Western governments in formerly Eastern Bloc nations, some of which are among NATO's newest members and have urged a strong response to Russia's invasion of a like-minded country.

On Monday on his way home from the Olympics in China, Bush talked with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus and Polish President Lech Kaczynski. He then spoke to Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, the White House said. On Tuesday, he spoke with Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Rice, who returned early to Washington late Monday from vacation to deal with the crisis, held a second round of talks with foreign ministers from the Group of Seven countries in which they were briefed on European Union mediation efforts led by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who met Tuesday with Medvedev in Moscow.

"They believe that they have made some progress and we welcome that and we certainly welcome the E.U. mediation," Rice told reporters at the White House.

Despite the flurry of activity, there was still uncertainty about whether Russia had in fact halted its military action in Georgia with reports of continued shelling of civilian and military sites.

The State Department on Tuesday recommended that all U.S. citizens leave Georgia in a new travel warning, saying the security situation remained uncertain. It said it was organizing a third evacuation convoy to take Americans who want to leave by road to neighboring Armenia. More that 170 American citizens have already left Georgia in two earlier convoys.

Just hours after Bush said in a White House address that the invasion had "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world" and demanded an end to what he called Moscow's "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence, Medvedev said he had ordered an end to military action.

But Georgia insisted that Russian forces were still bombing and shelling and White House spokesman Tony Fratto said Tuesday it was too early to comment on Medvedev's move. "We are trying to get an assessment of what a halt means and whether it is taking place, of course," the spokesman added.

Typifying the administration's dilemma, a planned late-morning White House briefing by national security adviser Stephen Hadley was postponed "until further notice" due to ongoing developments in Georgia and in Moscow, where Sarkozy was meeting with Russian officials on behalf of the West.

The State Department on Tuesday recommended that all U.S. citizens leave Georgia in a new travel warning, saying the security situation remained uncertain. It said it was organizing a third evacuation convoy to take Americans who want to leave by road to neighboring Armenia. More that 170 American citizens have already left Georgia in two earlier convoys.

Dear bloody gods. Russia deserves to be in the G8 far more than Italy, France or bloody Canada. If they do kick Russia out it will officially become the most useless multi-national organization, beating out even the UN. Hopefully this doesn't get much further.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Russia and France agree to truce terms. The Georgians have indicated already that they refuse to accept these, by the way, which means the conflict could erupt again more or less at any second if the Georgians are epically stupid enough to imagine that a counterattack could drive the Russian Army from its new positions.

Russia and France have agreed on a six-point plan for a permanent truce in Georgia.

The plan, which awaits Georgian approval, includes provisions for what officials are calling an "international discussion" on the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia - the two pro-Russian breakaway regions of northern Georgia.

Russian President Dmitri Medvedev said the plan also includes: provisions for the renunciation of force by all parties, a halt to military action, unhindered access to humanitarian aid, the return of Georgian forces to their pre-conflict positions, and the continued presence of Russian peacekeepers in the two rebellious territories.

Incidentally, there was only a brief raid by ground troops on Sukhumi and a village on the Georgian side of the border with Abkhazia, the first one to destroy a fixed military base, and the raiders then retired to the Abkhazian frontier, and the second was to destroy a Georgian concentration firing across the border, apparently. Other than that, the Russian troops never crossed the borders of the disputed territories, and never once crossed them in South Ossetia. All the claims about Poti, Gori, etc, falling to the Russian Army, were Georgian efforts to panic the US into intervening militarily, the fucking lunatics. Also the Georgians continue to make occasional attacks, as noted, on the Russian positions despite the unilateral Russian cease-fire.

[hongi]

Jesus fucking Christ.

McCain says all Americans back Georgia in struggle

YORK, Pa. - Republican presidential candidate John McCain phoned Georgia's president Tuesday to tell him all Americans back his country's efforts to thwart military attacks from Russia.

McCain told more than 2,000 voters in York, Pa., that he spoke Tuesday morning with Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to make sure he knows "that the thoughts, prayers and support of the American people are with that great little nation as it struggles today" for independence.

"I told him that I know I speak for every American when I said to him, today, we are all Georgians," McCain said to loud applause. He said Saakashvili asked him to express his thanks to Americans.

McCain said Moscow is using "violence against Georgia to send a signal" to "any country that chooses to associate with the West." Russian leaders, he said, must realize they risk "the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world."

Can this dickwad be any dumber?

Obama is more restrained, but still has to play within the confines of what America expects from its presidential candidates. But at least he wasn't falling over himself to cozy up to Georgia:

Both McCain and his Democratic opponent, Barack Obama, have called for a multi-pronged diplomatic approach to pressure Russia to withdraw from Georgia, a former republic of the Soviet Union. Georgia has been trying to keep the pro-Moscow province of South Ossetia from breaking away.

Obama, who is vacationing in Hawaii, said in a statement Tuesday: "Now is the time for action not just words. It is past time for the Russian government to immediately sign and implement a cease-fire. Russia must halt its violation of Georgian airspace and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia, with international monitors to verify that these obligations are met."

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Fuck that, that pissed me off so much I might just re-register to vote -- against him.

[VT-16]

Anyone thought of the possibility of the US doing anything Iran-wise to counter the Russian counter to Iraq and Kosovo?

[K. A. Pital]

Georgians will not attack again. Their C&C has been decimated to the extent of taking a Georgian tank column running away from Gori for a Russian tank unit advancing on Tbilisi.

[Androsphinx]

Georgians will not attack again. Their C&C has been decimated to the extent of taking a Georgian tank column running away from Gori for a Russian tank unit advancing on Tbilisi.

Nice

In all seriousness, though, the Georgians got beat in the early 1990s, and sat on their hands for fifteen years until they saw another chance. Without a permanent Russian military presence in S.O., aren't we just waiting for Round 3?

[Thanas]

According to some rumours, the georgians have started force-conscripting their youth.

[Pelranius]

There will probably be a round III if President Ghoulani (how I miss using that nickname) decides to prop up Saakashvili's zombie in 2020.

[Axis Kast]

Given that the US has been flouting the rules for the past 6 or 7 years - invading other countries, detaining people indefinitely without charge, sending captives to remote locations for various forms of torture, and so on - accusations of Russia being "out of control" is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black

Yes, it is.

Suck up the fact that the Russians are certainly no worse than the US, and over the past few years arguably better than the US.

You’ll excuse, of course, those who don’t feel confident that Russian democracy is really on par with American. As well as those of us who remember Chechnya. And the nature of Russian government which, as Marina has already suggested, is so much more functional than the American – because bribes are supposedly quite reliable methods of obtaining exemption from the justice system these days. Hurrah, the innocent accused!

Yes, it DOES have to do with the US, albeit not as directly as some other affairs on the international stage. Georgia did this in part believing the US would back them up to the point of openly confronting Russia on the battlefield. Where did they get that notion? Did the US government hint at that, or is it entirely the delusion of the Georgia government

If you want anyone to agree with your apparent attitude that the United States is somehow responsible for sending messages that the Georgians could easily spin into fantasies of strong support in the event that they contested South Ossetia militarily, it is evidence that you must provide.

It is very plausible to think that Georgia realistically hoped the West would support a fait accompli in South Ossetia – that is, a successful Georgian encirclement and suppression campaign to which the Russians were unable to react quickly enough. But it was idiocy to think they could guarantee they’d be able to swing one at this point in time.

This is NOT a change in Russian tactics, and far more mild than what historically occurred in the USSR days. The US - as pointed out several times in this thread - could be accused of similar actions in the former Yugoslavia

I don’t think so. American action in the former Yugoslavia had partly to do with revelations of a genocidal war. Russian action in South Ossetia is entirely about taking something long-coveted during a moment of perfect luck.

If the US feels justified in invading Iraq and deposing Saddam Hussein when NO American citizens are directly threatened then how can you say the Russians are unjustified in coming to the aid of Russians who are actually being killed and maimed by invading Georgia?

It’s true: Georgia gave Russia all the moral justification it needed by inflicting those casualties on Russian peacekeepers.

I sense, however, that the Kremlin finds their loss rather convenient politically, even if regrettable for other reasons. I also doubt they’d have held back in the absence of that cassus belli.

Russia had already issued those passports to individuals who were de jure citizens of the Georgian state. That is, they had violated the sovereign territory of another country. No less than, say, the American treatment of Blackwater and other private security forces rankles those who say we aren’t treating the Iraqis with proper respect.

Moreover, how would you have felt if the Israelis began issuing passports to Christians in southern Lebanon, then invaded and restored their occupation once firefights broke out between those villages and Hizbollah?

That was one of the dangers mentioned prior to entering Iraq a few years ago, that other people would use that invasion to justify unilateral action of their own, up to and including forcible regime change.

Do you feel that Russia would have abstained from responding to Georgia’s provocation without the case of Iraq to adduce in its favor?

Our creating a precedent only matters if it is, in fact, an actionable example. Personally, I don’t think too many other countries take their cues from what we did in Iraq. They may point to it, feel more comfortable in using similar justification elsewhere. But I don’t think it was the tipping point in any debate over their interventions and assaults.

Moving on to Mike…

Too bad the Americans couldn't think of this "proportionality" argument when they were wildly cheerleading the Israelis as they bombed the shit out of Lebanon and promised to "turn the clock back 20 years" over a handful of Israeli soldiers being killed or captured.

Israeli behavior is just one of the various considerations that makes the Georgian initiation of the conflict easier to accept. The problem isn’t that they are brutal beyond measure or comparison.

The fact is that America has no right to claim a moral leadership role. Nobody outside the country sees it as the beacon of freedom, human rights, and morality that its own people seem to think it is. Anything they accuse anyone else of doing, others can accuse them of either doing themselves or condoning when their allies did it.

The lines for entry visas at our foreign embassies and consular facilities proves you wrong.

And Stas…

"In an attempt to get them to secede"? Dude, Georgia fought a war with Abkhazia and S. Ossetia in the early 1990s. They already seceded.

Russia sure didn’t feel that way about Kosovo.

Hongi…

Can this dickwad be any dumber?

What do you think he means?

John McCain is essentially saying, “Our thoughts are with you, and we wish you were winning,” which is fairly common knowledge already. He isn’t saying, “Hold on! We’re coming!”

Marina…

Incidentally, there was only a brief raid by ground troops on Sukhumi and a village on the Georgian side of the border with Abkhazia, the first one to destroy a fixed military base, and the raiders then retired to the Abkhazian frontier, and the second was to destroy a Georgian concentration firing across the border, apparently. Other than that, the Russian troops never crossed the borders of the disputed territories, and never once crossed them in South Ossetia. All the claims about Poti, Gori, etc, falling to the Russian Army, were Georgian efforts to panic the US into intervening militarily, the fucking lunatics. Also the Georgians continue to make occasional attacks, as noted, on the Russian positions despite the unilateral Russian cease-fire.

Once again. Do you have any evidence for these positions?

You’ve yet to effectively rebut my points with respect to the validity of Russian press reports.

Or, for that matter, about the problems associated with your position that we should all learn Russian, ignorant as we are.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Stas said the same thing, Axis Kast, so you've got corroboration from someone else, though I imagine you think we're both in a TASS office somewhere making this stuff up on the fly in the service of the Grand Russian Conspiracy. I simply added in the raids which the Defense Ministry said took place, whereas Stas listed the ones which are now confirmed to have not taken place. If you'd bothered to read this fucking thread there was also an article posted where US military intelligence sources admitted that there was no evidence that the Russians had advanced on Gori. But you're too fucking stupid to read.


P.S. If you can bribe your way out of being falsely imprisoned, that IS better than being falsely imprisoned. Let's imagine that if the very corrupt Russian government was running Gitmo--and you were in it, and innocent. Your family could pony up the money to bribe the prosecutors and guards and so on for you to be released. In America, that won't happen. Paying bloodmoney, more or less, is a bad outcome but still better than indefinite illegal detention, y'see? Obviously it would be nice if neither one happened, but in a choice between being indefinitely detained by the government, and being detained by the government until my friends could pony up a bribe, it should be ridiculously obvious that the second option is preferable.