Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Broomstick]

The "American democracy" isn't what it used to be, trust me on that as someone who's lived here for more than 40 years. We've become more like them than most of us would care to admit.

No, you’re right. It’s better. Step by step, and not always without difficulty, we have shown net improvement over time.

Russia remains decades, perhaps lifetimes, behind.

Russia started further behind in many respects - at the point of the Revolution Russia was a feudal, agriculture-based society. During the 20th Century they not only tried to pull themselves rapidly into an industrial society but attempted to exceed those around them. Basically, they tried to cover in 50 years what took Europe and the US a much greater length of time to achieve. That is, of course, a simplification but I'm trying to avoid writing and entire book with each post.

The Russians have shown a capacity to advance rapidly in a short time frame in many areas of human endeavor. Do not underestimate them.

I find it odd that this is not the first instance of overconfidence on the part of an "ally" we then hang out to dry. Another example that comes to mind is the Kurdish uprising after the first Gulf War, which left them crying out for US support as Saddam crushed them. I'm sure I could come up with others if I thought about it. But I think you're making that more of an accusation than I intended it to be.

Whether or not you’re making an accusation, I find it odd that you’re ignoring key evidence.

The United States apparently sensed that the Georgians were misinterpreting certain signals and attempted to discourage adventurism that might be considered provocative in the Kremlin. If anything, this is to our credit.

To our credit, but perhaps too little too late. As I have said many times, I don't feel I have entirely sufficient information on the situation in South Ossetia/Georgia and am quite open to more data, it's just that in the past there have been times when we haven't delivered on promises. Or perhaps we made no promises, but someone in Georgia thought they could arm-twist us into an open confrontation in South Ossetia. As I said, I don't know.

I’ll be the first to admit that Washington often does a poor job of restraining our friends.

I have to question how much we SHOULD "restrain" another sovereign nation. I think we also fail to communicate well at times due to both language and cultural issues.

There are millions of people the world over who hold dual citizenship. In a contested region, if I could hold papers for both the locality I was in and another state to run to I'd consider that a reasonable precaution.

One must first qualify before obtaining duel citizenship. Russia has treated the populations of both enclaves as citizens from the first.

It’s also much more difficult to believe that Russia was doing anything but establishing de facto control when you review their other negative and illegal behaviors in the area -- not least of which included bolstering the combat capacity of the South Ossetian rebel militia.

I don't deny there was some hanky-panky going on, but dual citizenship alone is not evidence of it. That's part of the problem with this sort of subversive activity, it's not any ONE action, it's a combination of actions. The Russians know how to play the game of plausible deniability as well as anyone else.

But my point was that there would be something wrong with Israel’s decision. As much as I may want to justify it in a specific situation (borrowing, perhaps, from Marina’s logic of “tailored solutions,” if you will), if they began handing out passports, then invaded south Lebanon and claimed superiority vis-à-vis the Lebanese government in terms of defending their people from Hizbollah, they’d be materially correct. And legally and morally in the wrong. Israel doesn’t have a right to ownership over south Lebanon.

Sometimes, you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Rather like the endless debates about various incidents in WWII, you have to consider the larger context. If all you have are bad choices you still must choose one.

Which is the lesser evil - a southern Lebanon where people are safe in their person and property, but illegitimately controlled and defended by Israel, or a souther Lebanon legitimately controlled by a Lebaonese government that can't defend it from either Hizbollah or Israel?

The fact many regard the US as a better place than where they currently are does not make the US paradise, or perfect.

No. It doesn’t. But it does suggest that the U.S. is a better place than where they currently are. You keep forgetting that.

I want the US to be a better place than it currently is. I completely sympathize with immigrants who come here looking for a better country because I want a better country, too.

Given some of the shitholes currently in existence in this world, saying a nation is "better" isn't saying much. Better compared to what? I don't think the US is a terrible place to live, but I think there are other nations where one can live equally well or better depending on a number of factors.

I agree that McCain’s posturing on Russia is beyond discouraging. It has passed the line and become troubling. That doesn’t mean that I’m ready to say that he’s incompetent to take the reigns. I’ve got plenty of reasons not to vote for McCain. Including what seems like the low quality of his briefings. But I also have plenty of reasons not to vote for Obama. For example, Obama is actually the more hawkish of the two on Cuba, from what I can tell

No candidate it perfect. But I'll take "more hawkish on Cuba" over "antagonizing Russia" any day.

As if we need to make more problems in the world. Hell, two (or three, maybe) wars aren't enough. Let's start really cheesing off Russia! We do not need this saber-rattling.

We’ve already arrived at the point at which I strongly sense that several of the people on this message board are enthusiastic when receiving news of American flaws, missteps, and tribulations because it somehow validates their “brilliant” criticisms of George Bush.

There have always been people who don't like the US, one must be cautious not to be thin-skinned around them. Given that this is not a US message board I'm not surprised to see such sentiments expressed.

The whining over the possibility of nuclear holocaust due to the American airlift of Georgian troops was especially hilarious.

I think so, too - so far as I know, Georgia doesn't have nukes and the US and USSR/Russia have managed to avoid dropping the bomb on each other for 60+ years. The odds of them doing that over a brushfire conflict is pretty nil.

I think the next nuke set off in anger will be outside the UN Security Council group.

[Broomstick]

And Marina - what the fuck is wrong with you? You're having yet ANOTHER scream-fest in this thread.

As opposed to this, the what, 5th, 6th, personal shot from you that has nothing to do with the topic at hand?

What I'm seeing is that Marina is more interested in picking fights than have a discussion. I may have strayed off topic from time to time, but I'm not bringing up a supposed vendetta about my oral hygiene from another thread.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I have a right to be fucking pissed off about how many random and unwarranted personal attacks I've endured in the past two months on this board (for the record, an offhand comment about them in a thread where I stayed on top and crisply laid out the reasons why I was right as well is scarcely a diversion. You've devoted post after post to personal attacks on me in this thread, whereas I've occasionally tossed in a throwaway portion of a sentence or two into concise posts that remain on topic).

Where have I stopped debating? I'm getting drawn into all of these personal fights, and you have the gall to blame me about it, when you've instigated the biggest? And even then I keep driving home the points at hand, whereas you just try to drag it away into tangents and bog it down. What fucking ever, you bitch, I can keep this up for quite some time.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Things were much simpler when Pax Mongolica reigned over Eurasia.

[Ender]

What I'm seeing is that Marina is more interested in picking fights than have a discussion.

Funny, I see plenty of actual discussion from Marina, but personal shots are about all I see from you. Unless you think flipping the fuck out over a perceived slight (perceived because had you read the sentence it was clear that it wasn't) and going after someone's heritage constitutes intelligent discussion.

I may have strayed off topic from time to time, but I'm not bringing up a supposed vendetta about my oral hygiene from another thread.

No, you just decided to take a pot shot at Shep for having the temerity to say he heard sirens. Get off your god damned high horse you hypocrite.

[Pelranius]

Maybe we ought to lock this topic and split the subsequent thread into different ones?

[Broomstick]

I have a right to be fucking pissed off about how many random and unwarranted personal attacks I've endured in the past two months on this board

Give out less personal information about yourself, then. If you're having that many problems (and you can't lay them all at my door) then ask yourself how people are getting all this information to make these personal attacks.

You've devoted post after post to personal attacks on me in this thread

Actually, I haven't - We have one off-topic digression, which was over (as far as I was concerned) many pages ago and since them I have been talking about the base topic. As I was before we had our little tiff. I'm not the arrogant bitch who thinks this entire thread is a personal attack on Herself.

Where have I stopped debating? I'm getting drawn into all of these personal fights

Who is forcing you to argue? Who is forcing you to respond to those posts? Who is forcing you to call other people "cumstains"? Yes, profanity is allowed on this board but it's hardly mandatory.

And even then I keep driving home the points at hand, whereas you just try to drag it away into tangents and bog it down.

Oh, like no other thread on SD.net have ever wandered off into tangents before! If I and, say, Axis Kast wish to explore a tangential issue how is that a problem? If a mod comes in and officially says I'm getting too off-topic or "bogging" down the thread I'll change my posting, but until then I'll post as I see fit.

What fucking ever, you bitch, I can keep this up for quite some time.

But why? Are you putting notches on your keyboard or something for every argument you feel you win? You've stated you find this upsetting, that you've been near tears over this thread... Lady, take a deep breath and consider if you might want a little time off to think about it. I took a night off and came back and have tried to be more on topic but it seems a third of each page is you having a tirade.

You are, as always, free to disagree with me but it is my opinion (which I am entitled to have) that you're getting a little hysterical in some of your posts. You seem a lot more strident than you've been in the past.

[Broomstick]

No, you just decided to take a pot shot at Shep for having the temerity to say he heard sirens. Get off your god damned high horse you hypocrite.

It's no secret around here Shep doesn't hear well. Personally, I didn't think asking how a deaf person can hear (or otherwise be aware of) sirens was a "pot shot". Shep has certainly never hesitated to argue with me in the past, I haven't a clue why you think he'd hesitate to do so now. Shep is an adult - if he found my question offensive he can certainly tell me himself. He doesn't need you to be offended on his behalf.

[Broomstick]

Maybe we ought to lock this topic and split the subsequent thread into different ones?

This is not the first time it has been suggested this thread be split.

[Ender]

No, you just decided to take a pot shot at Shep for having the temerity to say he heard sirens. Get off your god damned high horse you hypocrite.

It's no secret around here Shep doesn't hear well. Personally, I didn't think asking how a deaf person can hear (or otherwise be aware of) sirens was a "pot shot". Shep has certainly never hesitated to argue with me in the past, I haven't a clue why you think he'd hesitate to do so now. Shep is an adult - if he found my question offensive he can certainly tell me himself. He doesn't need you to be offended on his behalf.

"Shit shit shit, I got caught, now I need to steer it off into another topic of moral outrage!"

Yeah, even if you didn't do that in most any thread you post in lately, it really doesn't work when you've done it before in this very fucking thread. Bitching about others getting involved in slinging personal insults when that is about all you have brought to the table here is taking "my shit doesn't stink" to a new level. You've repeatedly gone for the jugular in this thread instead of actually discussing the topic. Most times that is called trolling. I don't know what your problem is, nor do I care - they are called YOUR problems for a reason.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Give out less personal information about yourself, then. If you're having that many problems (and you can't lay them all at my door) then ask yourself how people are getting all this information to make these personal attacks.

So the appropriate response for off-topic personal attacks is to.. Berate the person at the receiving end of the off-topic personal attacks for giving out personal information?

Oh right, I'm being lectured by the person who STARTED those personal attacks; that's why this logic is fucked to hell and back with LSD.

Actually, I haven't - We have one off-topic digression, which was over (as far as I was concerned) many pages ago and since them I have been talking about the base topic. As I was before we had our little tiff. I'm not the arrogant bitch who thinks this entire thread is a personal attack on Herself.

You've tried your hardest to make it one.

Who is forcing you to argue? Who is forcing you to respond to those posts? Who is forcing you to call other people "cumstains"? Yes, profanity is allowed on this board but it's hardly mandatory.

So you're saying I should just shut up and let people take cheap shots at me. Like you're doing? Isn't this basically an appeal toward an attitude of, approximately, "Oh, how dare you reply when I make personal attacks against you!"

Oh, like no other thread on SD.net have ever wandered off into tangents before! If I and, say, Axis Kast wish to explore a tangential issue how is that a problem? If a mod comes in and officially says I'm getting too off-topic or "bogging" down the thread I'll change my posting, but until then I'll post as I see fit.

Going off topic is rather different from an intentional derail to scream at me in.

But why? Are you putting notches on your keyboard or something for every argument you feel you win? You've stated you find this upsetting, that you've been near tears over this thread... Lady, take a deep breath and consider if you might want a little time off to think about it. I took a night off and came back and have tried to be more on topic but it seems a third of each page is you having a tirade.

You are, as always, free to disagree with me but it is my opinion (which I am entitled to have) that you're getting a little hysterical in some of your posts. You seem a lot more strident than you've been in the past.

The reason I am not letting you make constant degrading personal attacks against me (and the same with others) is because I am mortally offended by the idea that someone thinks they have the right to make those personal attacks. In short, who the hell gave you the right to hijack threads and talk trash about me? I damn well am going to answer, Broomie. As far as I can see it you're just trying to slander me and my reputation on this board without cause or purpose, and to that, what can I do but respond?

I'm sure you'll have some sanctimonious advice for me, but the simple fact is that you're out of control and delusional in this thread.

[Guardsman Bass]

Christ, just let it go. There's no rule saying that you have to respond to every tiny little slight with histrionics.

In any case, it seems now that several Eastern European leaders are milking the crisis:

TBILISI, Georgia — Russia declared a ceasefire in Georgia on Tuesday after a five-day war that left Georgia's military in tatters and Russia seemingly on the verge of reasserting old Soviet-style authority over its neighbors.

But Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili and the heads of state of five other nations that had once been dominated by the Soviet Union vowed never to concede the independence they’ve enjoyed since 1991, when the Soviet Union was dissolved.

"The entire world is with us," Saakashvili told a crowd of thousands that thronged downtown Tbilisi in a late night rally.

On the podium with him were the leaders of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine.

"We know that if other peoples' freedom is threatened … then it's not long before our freedom is threatened," Estonian President Toomas Hendrik said.

Polish President Lech Kaczynski told the roaring crowd that Russia can't return to the days when the Soviet Union could have its way militarily with smaller countries on its borders.

"That time has ended forever," Kaczynski said. "We are here to say that we are not afraid."

The rally was an emotional outpouring after five days in which Russia asserted its military might in ways not seen outside its borders in nearly 30 years. Russian forces pummeled Georgia from the air, the sea and on land in a multi-pronged assault that on Monday seemed likely to end in the capture of Tbilisi and the overthrow of its U.S.-allied government.

The United States and the European Union seemed powerless to stop the onslaught, though both roundly denounced it. President Bush on Monday called the Russian action "unacceptable."

Then on Tuesday, Russian President Dimitry Medvedev announced that the campaign was ending.

"I have taken the decision to end the operation to force Georgian authorities into peace," he said in a statement.

"The purpose of the operation has been achieved. . . . The aggressor has been punished and has suffered very considerable losses," he said.

He threatened more punishing military strikes, however. "If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," he told Russian leadership.

Meanwhile, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia wouldn’t attempt to oust Saakashvili’s pro-Western government. But he suggested the Georgian president should go.

"I don't think Russia will feel like talking with Mr. Saakashvili after what he did to our citizens," Lavrov said. “The best thing would be for him to resign.”

A Russian military leader said the order to stop attacking didn't automatically mean that his forces had been withdrawn.

"If we have received the order to cease fire, this does not mean that we have stopped all actions, including reconnaissance," said Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy head of the Russian General Staff.

That threat of renewed violence led the United States to recommend that American citizens leave Georgia. Many were reported to be ready to evacuate overland to Armenia as early as Wednesday.

Russian planes again struck the town of Gori, which sits between the Georgian region of South Ossetia and Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, and helicopters launched missiles at surrounding villages. Smoke could be seen climbing from the area, where helicopters were swooping around a ridgeline and, in red flashes, sending down a rain of missile strikes.

Georgian troops had completely evacuated the route from Gori to Tbilisi overnight, abandoning artillery and troop transports on the side of the road.

On Tuesday, trucks and vans crammed with families sped down the road from Gori to Tbilisi in a rush to escape bloodshed. There were sacks filled with clothes strapped to the rooftops, suitcases jumbled in truck beds, and foam mattresses crammed on top of cooking pans.

In Tbilisi, Georgians were glad to hear that the fighting was mostly over, after days of panic that the Russians would take the capital. But they voiced deep resentments about the war.

"It's like the old Soviet days. They were making an example of us for Ukraine and others to see," said Dato Gorgodze, who was walking back from a rally downtown. "They wanted to demoralize the people."

In Moscow, French President Nicolas Sarkozy — the head of the European Union — met with Russian Federation President Dmitry Medvedev to propose a peace agreement. Sarkozy said that while the deal wasn't perfect, "what we need is to get out of a crisis. . . . I just want to push people to dialogue."

The proposal reportedly calls for a cease-fire, free access to humanitarian aid, withdrawal of Georgian and Russian forces to their original positions, and discussions about the future of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, two breakaway Georgian provinces whose status are at the root of the Russia-Gerogia conflict.

At a news conference, Medvedev said that the South Ossetians and Abkhazians should be asked whether they wanted to remain part of Georgia, a thinly veiled push for their independence.

Russian tanks and infantry poured into Georgia last week after Georgian forces attempted to seize the capital of pro-Russian South Ossetia. Russian air power established dominion over Georgia's skies, and Georgian forces were quickly forced out of South Ossetia.

By Tuesday, Russia controlled both South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another pro-Russian province, and had seized Georgia's principal Black Sea port and the outskirts of the strategic Georgian town of Gori.

The Russian military said the capital of the South Ossetia region was destroyed and blamed the Georgians.

"Tskhinvali doesn't exist. It's like Stalingrad was after the war," Nogovitsyn said. "Schools, hospital, houses, all infrastructure is ruined. There's no water, no electricity. We will rebuild it."

There was no independent confirmation of the scope of the destruction or whether it was caused by the initial Georgian strikes last week or the fighting since then. Because of the level of violence, and shut roads, it was not possible for journalists to travel to the town independently.

An official Russian news agency, RIA Novosti, quoted Tskhinvali Mayor Robert Guliyev as saying that more than two-thirds of the buildings in the town had been damaged or destroyed.

Half of the city’s 30,000 residents have fled the violence, he said.

What few accounts had surfaced were horrific. Moscow Times quoted one Russian military peacekeeper, Pyotor Bezhov, as saying he saw a tank blow up a car with a family inside.

"There was a mother, father and their two children," the paper quoted Bezhov as saying. "They were all dead. A tank just shot them."

In Gori, the devastation was also massive. Scores of people had been killed in days of bombings, many of them in the last hours of war on Tuesday, after Georgian military forces had vanished from the town.

"They are punishing us," said Nikoloz Kvachatze, a doctor at a main hospital in Tbilisi where many of Gori’s wounded were taken for treatment. "They are punishing us for trying to be independent."

[Guardsman Bass]

EDIT: I was referring to all of you, not just the Duchess.

[Axis Kast]

The Russians have shown a capacity to advance rapidly in a short time frame in many areas of human endeavor. Do not underestimate them.

Sure. But I think attempts to place Russia and the United States on par when it comes to quality of life in any respect is disingenuous.

To our credit, but perhaps too little too late. As I have said many times, I don't feel I have entirely sufficient information on the situation in South Ossetia/Georgia and am quite open to more data, it's just that in the past there have been times when we haven't delivered on promises. Or perhaps we made no promises, but someone in Georgia thought they could arm-twist us into an open confrontation in South Ossetia. As I said, I don't know.

It feels to me like you deeply suspect that the Georgians were given some very ambiguous signals to take to the bank. But if you’re just ruminating, we can leave this aside, I think.

I have to question how much we SHOULD "restrain" another sovereign nation. I think we also fail to communicate well at times due to both language and cultural issues.

I’ll come right out and be the first one to say I don’t really have a problem with dictation.

You should also know that I mostly had proxy forces in mind – like South Vietnam and Iran – when tying to think about this issue. Basically, folks whose activities were strongly influenced by American attitudes and who would have benefited (heck, the Shah was waiting for) American guidance.

I don't deny there was some hanky-panky going on, but dual citizenship alone is not evidence of it. That's part of the problem with this sort of subversive activity, it's not any ONE action, it's a combination of actions. The Russians know how to play the game of plausible deniability as well as anyone else.

I agree with that. Russia played a great hand.

Which is the lesser evil - a southern Lebanon where people are safe in their person and property, but illegitimately controlled and defended by Israel, or a souther Lebanon legitimately controlled by a Lebaonese government that can't defend it from either Hizbollah or Israel?

There’s also the question of self-determination. Couldn’t the Europeans have prevented certain seemingly “pointless” wars by perpetuating colonialism in the “altruistic” mode?

And that’s putting aside the fact that everyone who deemed themselves capable of it would use this argument as justification for land grabs.

No candidate it perfect. But I'll take "more hawkish on Cuba" over "antagonizing Russia" any day.

Obama distresses me for a variety of other reasons. I admit that the example of Cuba isn’t very powerful.

I’m curious, also, to know exactly what McCain would do if he were elected and another crisis like this developed. Some of what he says may be typical posturing. And Bush has taken the G8 ridiculousness and gone running with it.

There have always been people who don't like the US, one must be cautious not to be thin-skinned around them. Given that this is not a US message board I'm not surprised to see such sentiments expressed.

I suppose I don’t see the point in enjoying the misfortunes of others in order to prove oneself supposedly smart.

I think so, too - so far as I know, Georgia doesn't have nukes and the US and USSR/Russia have managed to avoid dropping the bomb on each other for 60+ years. The odds of them doing that over a brushfire conflict is pretty nil.

Perfect agreement.

[Broomstick]

No, you just decided to take a pot shot at Shep for having the temerity to say he heard sirens. Get off your god damned high horse you hypocrite.

It's no secret around here Shep doesn't hear well. Personally, I didn't think asking how a deaf person can hear (or otherwise be aware of) sirens was a "pot shot". Shep has certainly never hesitated to argue with me in the past, I haven't a clue why you think he'd hesitate to do so now. Shep is an adult - if he found my question offensive he can certainly tell me himself. He doesn't need you to be offended on his behalf.

"Shit shit shit, I got caught, now I need to steer it off into another topic of moral outrage!"

Got caught doing what? I had a question. Shep answered it. YOU'RE the one who seems to be outraged. If I in any way offended Shep I will apologize to him. I can't fathom why YOU are upset about this.

What the fuck is it with this thread? Seriously, I'd be entirely in favor of a mod splitting off everything that's NOT on topic - including all off-topic posts by myself, just to make it clear I'm not singling anyone out here. I was actually having a discussion about the topic at hand and the first half of page 26 pops up as a slugfest between Block and the Duchess - no wonder this is pushing 30 pages!

[Axis Kast]

The Russians have shown a capacity to advance rapidly in a short time frame in many areas of human endeavor. Do not underestimate them.

Sure. But I think attempts to place Russia and the United States on par when it comes to quality of life in any respect is disingenuous.

To our credit, but perhaps too little too late. As I have said many times, I don't feel I have entirely sufficient information on the situation in South Ossetia/Georgia and am quite open to more data, it's just that in the past there have been times when we haven't delivered on promises. Or perhaps we made no promises, but someone in Georgia thought they could arm-twist us into an open confrontation in South Ossetia. As I said, I don't know.

It feels to me like you deeply suspect that the Georgians were given some very ambiguous signals to take to the bank. But if you’re just ruminating, we can leave this aside, I think.

I have to question how much we SHOULD "restrain" another sovereign nation. I think we also fail to communicate well at times due to both language and cultural issues.

I’ll come right out and be the first one to say I don’t really have a problem with dictation.

You should also know that I mostly had proxy forces in mind – like South Vietnam and Iran – when tying to think about this issue. Basically, folks whose activities were strongly influenced by American attitudes and who would have benefited (heck, the Shah was waiting for) American guidance.

I don't deny there was some hanky-panky going on, but dual citizenship alone is not evidence of it. That's part of the problem with this sort of subversive activity, it's not any ONE action, it's a combination of actions. The Russians know how to play the game of plausible deniability as well as anyone else.

I agree with that. Russia played a great hand.

Which is the lesser evil - a southern Lebanon where people are safe in their person and property, but illegitimately controlled and defended by Israel, or a souther Lebanon legitimately controlled by a Lebaonese government that can't defend it from either Hizbollah or Israel?

There’s also the question of self-determination. Couldn’t the Europeans have prevented certain seemingly “pointless” wars by perpetuating colonialism in the “altruistic” mode?

And that’s putting aside the fact that everyone who deemed themselves capable of it would use this argument as justification for land grabs.

No candidate it perfect. But I'll take "more hawkish on Cuba" over "antagonizing Russia" any day.

Obama distresses me for a variety of other reasons. I admit that the example of Cuba isn’t very powerful.

I’m curious, also, to know exactly what McCain would do if he were elected and another crisis like this developed. Some of what he says may be typical posturing. And Bush has taken the G8 ridiculousness and gone running with it.

There have always been people who don't like the US, one must be cautious not to be thin-skinned around them. Given that this is not a US message board I'm not surprised to see such sentiments expressed.

I suppose I don’t see the point in enjoying the misfortunes of others in order to prove oneself supposedly smart.

I think so, too - so far as I know, Georgia doesn't have nukes and the US and USSR/Russia have managed to avoid dropping the bomb on each other for 60+ years. The odds of them doing that over a brushfire conflict is pretty nil.

Perfect agreement.

"Shit shit shit, I got caught, now I need to steer it off into another topic of moral outrage!"

Yeah, even if you didn't do that in most any thread you post in lately, it really doesn't work when you've done it before in this very fucking thread. Bitching about others getting involved in slinging personal insults when that is about all you have brought to the table here is taking "my shit doesn't stink" to a new level. You've repeatedly gone for the jugular in this thread instead of actually discussing the topic. Most times that is called trolling. I don't know what your problem is, nor do I care - they are called YOUR problems for a reason.

To be fair, Broomstick originally felt that she was the target of anti-Semitism as much as Marina believed she, too, was being savaged without good reason.

I also didn’t see anything particularly unusual about Broomstick’s question of Shep, who answered straightforwardly enough that it didn’t seem he was offended.

Frankly, it's been enjoyable debating with Broomstick the past two days. She stands out for her civility during our disagreements, as evidenced by her last response to me.

[Broomstick]

Give out less personal information about yourself, then. If you're having that many problems (and you can't lay them all at my door) then ask yourself how people are getting all this information to make these personal attacks.

So the appropriate response for off-topic personal attacks is to.. Berate the person at the receiving end of the off-topic personal attacks for giving out personal information?

If you've been having a problem with "personal attacks" for, as you say, two months in multiple threads then you should consider what YOU may be doing to leave yourself vulnerable. We ALL suffer personal attacks here from time to time, but for most of us it's not a chronic problem. If you take that as "berating" you, well, I can't change your mind, I'm just pointing out no one else around here seems to be having such a chronic problem with it.

Oh right, I'm being lectured by the person who STARTED those personal attacks; that's why this logic is fucked to hell and back with LSD.

Yeah, I got pissed at you for a comment you made in this particular thread. YOU brought up that you've had problems in other threads, too. That's not my doing.

Who is forcing you to argue? Who is forcing you to respond to those posts? Who is forcing you to call other people "cumstains"? Yes, profanity is allowed on this board but it's hardly mandatory.

So you're saying I should just shut up and let people take cheap shots at me.

I'm saying you should choose your battles. Yeah, sometimes it's not worth replying to every perceived slight. It's just a fucking message board.

Going off topic is rather different from an intentional derail to scream at me in.

Marina, you come up with whacky ideas at time, but usually you're a lot more together in discussing them. Yeah, I think you're being oversensitive lately. Not everyone agrees with you. So what?

The reason I am not letting you make constant degrading personal attacks against me (and the same with others) is because I am mortally offended by the idea that someone thinks they have the right to make those personal attacks.

Wow. Must be exhausting being you.

In short, who the hell gave you the right to hijack threads and talk trash about me?

What gives you the right to bash away at people who ask you to provide a cite for your claims, like you did Block? If you needed time to get an English-language link or whatever just say "give me some time to get a link". Holy fuck, is it really that hard? ANYONE has the right to ask any one of us to back up whatever we say, but likewise we all can ask for a little time to do the research.

I damn well am going to answer, Broomie. As far as I can see it you're just trying to slander me and my reputation on this board without cause or purpose, and to that, what can I do but respond?

I'm not trying to slander you - I am genuinely concerned because you DO seem to be overreacting. No one is out to get you. Pardon me for caring. Fine, your message is loud and clear. This is my last communication to you. Attack me all you want, call me any name you want, I will not reply. That's what you want, right? Silence except for your own voice.

[Darth Wong]

So Israel's behaviour proves Georgia is in the right here? How does that follow?

Israel is one of several examples. What it means is that I'm not going to raise hell over Georgia's opening bombardment. It wasn't some radical, random behavior. Russia used similar tactics in Grozny.

You're changing the subject. No one is asking anyone to "raise hell" over Georgia's initial attack. People are just saying that Georgia doesn't have the moral high ground that it claims to have.

Your rebuttal does not actually refute my statement.

Unless you're assuming that people come here to sample McDonalds, it absolutely does.

Wrong. The fact that America has lost its (presumed) position of moral leadership has absolutely nothing to do with the number of people attempting to emigrate to America. It's a red-herring, and you're an idiot.

Now you can argue that they are really seeking university education or economic opportunity. Of course, consideration of quality of life is essential to making such choices.

Are you actually stupid enough to honestly think that my comments about America's loss of moral authority had something to do with its domestic quality of life?

If someone calls you an asshole, do you retort that you must be a nice guy because you have a nicer car than he does?

[Broomstick]

The Russians have shown a capacity to advance rapidly in a short time frame in many areas of human endeavor. Do not underestimate them.

Sure. But I think attempts to place Russia and the United States on par when it comes to quality of life in any respect is disingenuous.

My familiarity with modern Russian culture and life is not deep enough to make a valid comparison. However, there is no disputing that they have accomplished some impressive feats of science and engineering. I have no doubt that there are many people in Russia who enjoy greater wealth and a more lavish lifestyle than I have ever had here in the US. On the other hand, acquisition of wealth and material goods have never been my prime motivation. How does one make valid comparisons between to nations of such divergent history and culture?

To our credit, but perhaps too little too late. As I have said many times, I don't feel I have entirely sufficient information on the situation in South Ossetia/Georgia and am quite open to more data, it's just that in the past there have been times when we haven't delivered on promises. Or perhaps we made no promises, but someone in Georgia thought they could arm-twist us into an open confrontation in South Ossetia. As I said, I don't know.

It feels to me like you deeply suspect that the Georgians were given some very ambiguous signals to take to the bank. But if you’re just ruminating, we can leave this aside, I think.

Yes, it was intended mainly as food for thought. I can't prove it, but I do wonder what went on behind closed doors. Hell, the current administration has failed to follow through on promises made to their own citizens, I have to consider that they might have done the same to others. I don't consider our current crowd in DC to be trustworthy, even by the low standards I hold for politicians.

Which is the lesser evil - a southern Lebanon where people are safe in their person and property, but illegitimately controlled and defended by Israel, or a souther Lebanon legitimately controlled by a Lebaonese government that can't defend it from either Hizbollah or Israel?

There’s also the question of self-determination. Couldn’t the Europeans have prevented certain seemingly “pointless” wars by perpetuating colonialism in the “altruistic” mode?

Except that mode is not "altruistic" - it always winds up benefiting the empire more than the colonies. I don't think the benefits of colonialism outweigh the negatives. Indeed, colonization probably caused or worsened some of the ethnic frictions already present.

And that’s putting aside the fact that everyone who deemed themselves capable of it would use this argument as justification for land grabs.

What makes a nation? Isn't that a core question here? I don't think there's a hard and fast definition other than "well, most of the world sees you as sovereign, you're sovereign". At what point do rebels become a sovereign nation? When does a "break-away" republic become legitimate and when not? If everyone in Cornwall decided to become independent of Great Britain would they be allowed to secede? When a country fractures, how far do you let it fragment?

There have always been people who don't like the US, one must be cautious not to be thin-skinned around them. Given that this is not a US message board I'm not surprised to see such sentiments expressed.

I suppose I don’t see the point in enjoying the misfortunes of others in order to prove oneself supposedly smart.

I don't understand it, either. There's that German word for it I can never remember how to spell that sums it up perfectly - schaudenfraude? (yeah, I probably didn't spell it right that time, either)

[Ender]

It's no secret around here Shep doesn't hear well. Personally, I didn't think asking how a deaf person can hear (or otherwise be aware of) sirens was a "pot shot". Shep has certainly never hesitated to argue with me in the past, I haven't a clue why you think he'd hesitate to do so now. Shep is an adult - if he found my question offensive he can certainly tell me himself. He doesn't need you to be offended on his behalf.

"Shit shit shit, I got caught, now I need to steer it off into another topic of moral outrage!"

Got caught doing what? I had a question. Shep answered it. YOU'RE the one who seems to be outraged. If I in any way offended Shep I will apologize to him. I can't fathom why YOU are upset about this.

"Fuck! Better keep pushing through with the quote mining to try and wrap myself in the cloak of victim hood even though my entire presence here has been personal attacks!"

My beef? I'd like to actually have an intelligent discussion and you are instead tearing through this taking personal shots rather then covering the incident, and then decrying that others are doing what you have been doing all along.

But hey, I'm giving you attention. And that's what you want, right? And what the heck, be sure to get your last digs in at Marina as you scramble to get back on your high horse and claim your personal attacks are just because you care. The only thing that tops that nonsense is claiming you are letting it drop. Which you also claimed on page 10, and then kept it running.

[Elfdart]

I haven't followed this story, but I couldn't help but laugh when I heard on the radio that a good part of McCain's statement on the issue was cribbed from a Wikipedia page.


LINK

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/258483

[Broomstick]

But hey, I'm giving you attention. And that's what you want, right?

No, I want you to stop acting like Marina's sockpuppet.

If you want to discuss the original topic I'll be happy to discuss it with you. Otherwise, I'm done replying to you as well.

[Broomstick]

From CNN

TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- The presidents of Georgia and Russia have agreed to a six-point plan to calm the conflict over Georgia's separatist territories, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said late Tuesday.
Nicolas Sarkozy, left, and Dmitry Medvedev outline the deal and the problems ahead.

The plan "cannot resolve the larger problems and issues," Sarkozy said. We need to work on those. But, obviously, it does underline and respect and guarantee Georgia's territorial integrity."

The agreement calls for an immediate cease-fire with Russian and Georgian forces withdrawing to the positions they held on August 6, before the outbreak of hostilities. It also allows displaced civilians to return home safely and opens Georgia to humanitarian aid workers.

The conflict centers on whether South Ossetia, where hostilities started last week, and Abkhazia will remain in the Georgian republic.

Speaking at a news conference in Tbilisi with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, Sarkozy said the agreement was "hammered out with the president of Russia [Dmitry Medvedev] and also the prime minister, Vladimir Putin.

Sarkozy was a central figure in the negotiations in his role as current president of the European Union. He said the plan will be presented to the 27 EU ministers, then reviewed by the U.N. Security Council.

Sarkozy added that "our intent is to make [the agreement] long-term."

"What it is trying to achieve is peace in this region," he summarized.

Earlier Tuesday, after the French and Russian presidents met, Sarkozy said he and Medvedev agreed that Georgia is an independent country and Russia has no intention of annexing it. But Medvedev also said "sovereignty is based on the will of the people" and "territorial integrity can be demonstrated by the actual facts on the ground."

Saakashvili said he did not want to leave "any doubt" about whether Georgia's territorial integrity is up for discussion. "This is out of the question," he said.

He said he would welcome an international process for security arrangements.

"Georgia needs to get back to normal," he said. "For all the people who are suffering out there, this is good news."

In Washington, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice said: "I wanted to make very clear that the United States stands for the territorial integrity of Georgia, for the sovereignty of Georgia; that we support its democratically elected government and people, and are reviewing options for humanitarian and reconstruction assistance to Georgia. But the most important thing right now is that these military operations need to stop."

The announcement of the agreement came hours after Russia called a halt to its powerful military incursion into Georgia. iReport.com: Share your story of how the crisis is affecting you

Russian officials insisted their efforts were aimed at stopping Georgian military actions against Russian peacekeepers and citizens in the breakaway regions, with one Russian diplomat telling CNN as many as 2,000 people died after Georgia sent its military into South Ossetia on Thursday.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Russia had no choice but to move militarily.

"If Russia had a different option of reacting to Georgia's aggression against South Ossetia, we would have used it," he said. "But we didn't have this option. When several thousand civilians are killed, the state must act accordingly."

At a rally in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, Saakashvili said, "I think the political motive [by Russia] is very clear: to demonstrate to the world they couldn't care less about world reaction; to continue to cripple the country."

Reports from both sides of casualties have varied and have not been independently confirmed. iReport.com: Georgians rally at Parliament building

At the news conference Tuesday, Saakashvili said he had received "credible reports" of camps where killings had taken place and "innocent civilians" executed, and he cited "media reports" of a "weapon of mass destruction" used against a hospital.

Reports about fighting on the ground conflicted. Georgia complained the Russians had mined a military base, and scattered fighting was reported early Tuesday in some areas.

However, while the Georgians complained their country remained occupied by a large Russian force, they did not say there were any major offensives under way.

Georgian officials said there were attacks Tuesday, but there was no evidence of the kinds of the large-scale attacks that caused widespread damage in bombed-out places such as Gori. Georgians told CNN there was sporadic fighting in South Ossetia, but that was difficult to confirm. Video Watch more on the fighting in South Ossetia »

A Dutch cameraman was killed Tuesday morning in an incident in Gori, the Dutch Foreign Ministry confirmed. He was identified as Stan Storimans of RTL TV. The correspondent who accompanied him was also injured.

U.K.-based energy giant BP later said it shut down three oil pipelines in the region as a "precautionary measure" linked to the security situation. None of its pipelines had been attacked.

Earlier, in announcing his decision to halt the Russian military operation, Medvedev said: "The aggressor has been punished and has incurred very significant losses. Its armed forces are disorganized." Video Watch Georgia's reaction to halt in fighting »

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Tuesday that it would be best if Saakashvili stepped down as Georgia's president, something he has not offered to do, but that Russia was not demanding his resignation. Video Watch Lavrov speak about Georgia »

On Tuesday, tens of thousands of Georgians converged on the capital, Tbilisi, for a day of rallies. In the evening they waved French, U.S. and Georgian flags at a rally where President Mikhail Saakashvili was joined by the leaders of Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. Video Watch the rally »

Violence has raged since Georgia on Thursday launched a crackdown on separatist fighters in autonomous South Ossetia, where most people have long supported independence from Georgia.

Russian troops and tanks moved into South Ossetia on Friday and soon were pushing back the Georgian forces. Russian forces also moved into Abkhazia. Interactive map: See how far the Russians advanced »
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Up to 100,000 people are thought to have been displaced in South Ossetia and Georgia by the violence, and witnesses are reporting the presence of unexploded ordnance in Georgian towns.

The United States, U.N. agencies, religious groups, and non-governmental organizations have started drives for humanitarian relief.

[Ender]

Previously reported by VOA and posted on page 24.

[Mr Flibble]

They must have been desperate

The Federal Government is preparing a humanitarian aid package for those displaced by the fighting in South Ossetia and Georgia.

The Foreign Affairs Minister, Stephen Smith, says Georgia asked Australia for military assistance but that request was refused.

Mr Smith says he expects to announce in the next 24 hours what humanitarian assistance Australia will offer.

"We're not interested in a military solution here. We're interested in a dialogue," he said.

"I have made it clear and I again make it clear Australia of course stands ready to contemplate humanitarian assistance.

"There've been a large number of civilians who've been killed or injured or displaced."

The Minister has told Sky News he welcomes recent developments indicating both sides are willing to move towards a peaceful solution.

"This does set the scene for a ceasefire although we do know that there is still sporadic fighting going on," he said.

"But the scene is there now for an effective ceasefire, we welcome very much the good work of the European Union led by the French President, President Sarkozy, and also the good work of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe."

Bolding for emphasis. Quite clearly Georgia was desperate for any support they could get. In all seriousness what possible military support could Australia have offered them? And what nation would think Australia would be stupid enough to go against Russia?