Man goes to get green card, dies of cancer in ICE cell.

[Invictus ChiKen]

That doesn't make you any less responsible, it does, however, make you a better person than those who have been supportive or apathetic of the government's actions. Responsibility need not equal guilt, and it certainly doesn't mean you deserve punishment. That you are responsible for the government's actions means that it is your duty to demand change when said actions are illegal or immoral.

Thanks for the clarification Adrian!

[Knife]

They weren't immigrants so it isn't the same. I don't know why you are trying to argue otherwise with that sarcastic line. People died due to a heat wave and the government is investigating ways to better alert people of a dangerous heatwave. I don't know how you can even compare the two. At first I honestly believed that you mislinked it.

Meh, I think I misslinked though I propose that the French immigration let in a lot of people it never intended to be citizens into the country. My next link is more in line with what I was thinking. Large pockets of non-citizens allowed into the country to 'work' but treated as second class citizens.

Beurocratic fuck up to it's logical conclusion.

[Block]

I'm not sure how they relates at all. Kids rode a red light on a bike without helmets, hit a cop car, and died. Three eyewitnesses said they saw cops try mouth-to-mouth to revive them. How does that equate at all to immigrants being denied medical care? Had they not merely been immigrants (actually, the sons of immigrants), this would be nothing new.

The underlying cause of that is the French treat the African immigrants like shit. That's why there were those enormous riots in 2005.

What was the extent of that? The article mentions it only in passing.

It's pretty much systemic. They're basically second class citizens, I remember a number of articles about it being written at the time, I'm sure they're still out there somewhere.

[MKSheppard]

So first off, we have a man who came legally.

And then violated the Visa by staying after it expired.

Worked.. Put down roots..

Lots of people are here illegally, work, and put down roots.

Tell me again how these people aren't all evil and criminals. I'd love to hear the excuses and diversions.

While I am sympathetic to his excruciating odyssey through the justice system with cancer; I'm not sympathetic to the decisions he made that led to this end point.

I'm friends with someone who came to the US several summers in a row and worked here on a student visa and didn't want to go back home; because they were going to graduate next year; and thus would no longer be able to return to the US that easily. It was a tough decision for them, but they made the right decision to go back home and finish up their schooling.

This guy made the wrong decision years ago; and the Piper didn't come a-calling until now, with ICE's increased enforcement of immigration violations.

[MichaelFerrariF1]

american taxpayers are de facto war criminals

Some people have this thing called a job. They need it to support themselves. Part of having that job is paying income taxes.

Some of us also buy things and pay what's called a sales tax.

I guess it's better for society if everyone quits their job, rolls over, and dies.

[Darth Wong]

This is an appalling thing to happen but bureaucratic fuck-ups happen the world over.

The problem is that this is probably not a bureaucratic fuckup. This was not a paperwork mistake, or someone who "fell through the cracks". This was a case of people who met the victim face to face, and didn't give a damn about what must have been his very obviously declining health because he's a dirty immigrant. It is the direct result of a culture and a miasmic propaganda campaign which teaches people to hate and fear outsiders and to consider them lesser humans.

[Darth Wong]

american taxpayers are de facto war criminals

Some people have this thing called a job. They need it to support themselves. Part of having that job is paying income taxes.

Some of us also buy things and pay what's called a sales tax.

I guess it's better for society if everyone quits their job, rolls over, and dies.

I would, however, say that every person who voted for Bush is effectively a war criminal, especially the stupid assholes who voted for him again in 2004. Once may be chalked up to naivete, but twice is either malevolence or criminal stupidity.

[MKSheppard]

I would, however, say that every person who voted for Bush is effectively a war criminal, especially the stupid assholes who voted for him again in 2004. Once may be chalked up to naivete, but twice is either malevolence or criminal stupidity.

Awesome! So I'm a War Criminal Twice Over

[MKSheppard]

The problem is that this is probably not a bureaucratic fuckup. This was not a paperwork mistake, or someone who "fell through the cracks". This was a case of people who met the victim face to face, and didn't give a damn about what must have been his very obviously declining health because he's a dirty immigrant.

Actually, it was more of a fuckup on the correctional level. I'm sorry to say, but jailers tend to become quite jaded to maladies, it's always assumed that you're trying to fake your way into the medical wing.

[SirNitram]

So first off, we have a man who came legally.

And then violated the Visa by staying after it expired.

During, by the language of the article, his green card application process, which you are supposed to receive exemption for. But you, of course, are ignorant of some of the starker realities of how this works, no matter what you claim, and you keep showing it with statements like these. Green card -updates- give you a waiver for 16 months, but take over two years now. Is everyone sitting waiting for their routine updates now criminals and illegals? Only to looney tunes like you.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If you can find proveable evidence of misconduct, I won't exactly doubt it. But so far it seems far more like a bunch of people operating by rote that are allowed neither the time or the option to actually do more than "the book." The reason I've called it a bureaucratic fuck-up is because that's what it is. It sounds very much like they followed a one size fits all procedure with tragic results.

Refusal to provide reasonable medical treatment isn't misconduct?

This is a systematic denial of the human rights of people in these detention centers. Does Stormy seriously think that they specifically mistreated this pne asian guy? No. This is their Modus operandi.

The very procedure he says they are following is inherently morally bankrupt. He cant have it both ways. The initial detention was a fuckup. How they treated him when in system was systematic evil.

[Alyrium Denryle]

While I am sympathetic to his excruciating odyssey through the justice system with cancer; I'm not sympathetic to the decisions he made that led to this end point.

I love how you and stormbringer will defend any human rights violation you can find...

He was married to a US citizen, had children, and he did not even get the document that ordered him to appear in court. How the fuck could have contested the deportation order?

[General Zod]

This is a systematic denial of the human rights of people in these detention centers. Does Stormy seriously think that they specifically mistreated this pne asian guy? No. This is their Modus operandi.

The very procedure he says they are following is inherently morally bankrupt. He cant have it both ways. The initial detention was a fuckup. How they treated him when in system was systematic evil.

Thankfully precedent exists to an extent. While I'm sure systems like this one have their loopholes, its been fairly well established that refusing to provide reasonable medical care to someone you are responsible for holds you liable for any harm to them, including death.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Awesome! So I'm a War Criminal Twice Over

Awesome! Congratulations Shep!

[Mobius]

For the treament of immigrant/refugee in my wonderful country:
beeb

Refugee death troubles Belgium
There is a new outcry in Belgium over the treatment of immigrants after the death of a Nigerian man refused treatment by two hospitals because he had no official papers.

John Madu had been living in Belgium illegally after being refused asylum and was turned away by doctors despite repeated requests for treatment for his condition Hepatitis B.

Eventually the 31-year-old was taken in for tests but discharged the same day.

He died three days later at a train station east of the capital, Brussels. He had bled to death, deprived of the special medication for his condition, Hepatitis B.

Belgium's treatment of immigrants was called into question six week ago when Nigerian asylum-seeker Semira Adamu suffocated to death as she was being forcibly deported. The Interior Minister Louis Tobback resigned over that case.

Government: He should have been treated

The Belgian government has been swift to condemn those who refused Mr Madu initial medical treatment.

It points out that since 1996, a law has existed to guarantee illegal immigrants the right to emergency care.

A government spokesman stressed that any treatment that doctors think is necessary will be paid for by the state.


The Belgian Secretary of State responsible for the welfare of asylum seekers, Yan Peeters has gone further still, saying that if doctors are refusing treatment, there is clearly racism at play.

The Belgian Senate is currently debating the problems facing some 10,000 people living illegally in Belgium without papers or rights.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The difference between the US and Belgium? The belgian government takes pro-active steps to prevent further abuses. Ours does not. It pats itself on the back, starts an "internal investigation" that will get nowhere, and nothing changes.

[Graeme Dice]

So first off, we have a man who came legally.

And then violated the Visa by staying after it expired.

Do you ever get tired of basing your morals on the law? Of constantly admitting that you have the ethical development of a preschooler?

[MKSheppard]

Do you ever get tired of basing your morals on the law?

Hum. Nah. Not since it allowed me to navigate the entire labyrinth of

• Home Confinement
• Mandatory Parole Agent Visits
• Notification of Local Police in VA when I showed up there for the weekend

among other things, carefully checking the list off and following the rules heavily, and when I made booboos, immediately calling the responsible agency (Home confinement supervisor/parole officer) that a few years ago; I went for like months without getting anything from the Department of Parole and Probation. Then when I went there and asked what was going on?

(sound of typing on computer)

"Oh. We don't worry about you anymore. You don't have to come anymore."

And from there it was a hop skip and jump to filing expungement papers after waiting to become eligible for it; leading to the State's Attorney saying in a letter "we can find no compelling legal reason to deny expungement."

Of constantly admitting that you have the ethical development of a preschooler?

At least I don't think bullet proof vests cause crime.

[Ethereal41]

What a fucking disgrace. As a Hong Kong native this especially burns my balls. I have a few relatives in the USA's Homeland Security at the administration level (honest! even though everybody on the internet hass a green beret and a senator in their family), and even they admit shit like this is all too common.

[Dominus Atheos]

american taxpayers are de facto war criminals

Some people have this thing called a job. They need it to support themselves. Part of having that job is paying income taxes.

Some of us also buy things and pay what's called a sales tax.

I guess it's better for society if everyone quits their job, rolls over, and dies.

I would, however, say that every person who voted for Bush is effectively a war criminal, especially the stupid assholes who voted for him again in 2004. Once may be chalked up to naivete, but twice is either malevolence or criminal stupidity.

I don't think the people who voted for him in 2000 and then realized their mistake and switched to Kerry can be called war criminals. However, the people who voted for Bush after he started his illegal war, and voted for him over the guy who favored ending it can certainly be called guilty for crimes against the peace. The question is what punishments should they receive? It's not really feasible to execute or imprison half the population of the United States, so it seems to me the best corrective action would be disenfranchisement. I think everyone who falls under the above qualifications has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they don't possess the decision making ability necessary to choose the leader of the free world. We deny minors the right to vote for the same reason, but even the most drunken junior varsity jock would have the intelligence to realize that a fight that leaves one of the other guys (or 1 million of them and 4 thousand of your own friends) dead was probably a bad idea, especially after learning that the pretenses it was started on were lies and the other guys actually posed no threat to them.

[Big Orange]

The problem is that this is probably not a bureaucratic fuckup. This was not a paperwork mistake, or someone who "fell through the cracks". This was a case of people who met the victim face to face, and didn't give a damn about what must have been his very obviously declining health because he's a dirty immigrant. It is the direct result of a culture and a miasmic propaganda campaign which teaches people to hate and fear outsiders and to consider them lesser humans.

There was a genuine administrative error when a court order sent to the poor bugger was sent to the wrong address and it is an administrative cock up that he ended up in the jug (perhaps partially his fault from not paying attention to warnings from the authorities), but we cannot defend the prison staff from ignoring and exacerbating his deteriorating physical condition when said prison staff should've been trained to deal with health problems among inmates (it was not as if he was a professional criminal ready to stage a bust from a low security medical wing). Any non-violent criminal dying in the custody of the authorities should be treated deadly seriously and criminal charges should be levied if possible.

I'd say many Americans (but not all) are culpable in the social, economic and political decline of America if the psychopathic comments made by mainstream conservatives elsewhere on the Internet is anything to go by.

[Graeme Dice]

Do you ever get tired of basing your morals on the law?

Hum. Nah. Not since it allowed me to navigate the entire labyrinth of

Are you going to answer the question, or just continue to spout irrelevancies . I'm asking you why you think that the law is a valid way to determine what is moral. I'm then pointing out that such behaviour is the ethical level that very young children operate on. Fully functional adults are able to make their own ethical judgments.

At least I don't think bullet proof vests cause crime.

It's awesome that your memory is so terrible that you're confusing me with Strowbridge. But that's to be expected from the guy who's so incredibly socially maladjusted that he got kicked out of university for hitting girls who were interested in him.

[Spyder]

Obviously the odd example of poor immigrant treatment can be sited in Europe (I'm assuming people have other examples besides France). However, unless it's typical for immigration enforcement the world over to refuse medical treatment and leave people to do (to an extent even if it was typical), is it unfair to expect the USA to set the bar higher?

Many nations won't allow someone to just lie down and die while being processed, even if it's not all of them. For those citing examples of immigration fuckups in France and other places, why is this standard too high for the US?

[Coyote]

Many nations won't allow someone to just lie down and die while being processed, even if it's not all of them. For those citing examples of immigration fuckups in France and other places, why is this standard too high for the US?

But part of the problem with this is that one particular-- even a handful of cases-- is being taken as the norm, and not only the norm, but as if it were government policy.

America, George Bush, etc, have garnered their fair share of criticism, including many things that desperately need to be investigated and prosecuted. But this "all of them are the epitome of evil" and such carrying on is really entering the realm of charicature... and one does not build a good solid grounds for criticsm based off of charicature and hyperbole.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't think the people who voted for him in 2000 and then realized their mistake and switched to Kerry can be called war criminals. However, the people who voted for Bush after he started his illegal war, and voted for him over the guy who favored ending it can certainly be called guilty for crimes against the peace. The question is what punishments should they receive? It's not really feasible to execute or imprison half the population of the United States, so it seems to me the best corrective action would be disenfranchisement. I think everyone who falls under the above qualifications has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they don't possess the decision making ability necessary to choose the leader of the free world. We deny minors the right to vote for the same reason, but even the most drunken junior varsity jock would have the intelligence to realize that a fight that leaves one of the other guys (or 1 million of them and 4 thousand of your own friends) dead was probably a bad idea, especially after learning that the pretenses it was started on were lies and the other guys actually posed no threat to them.

It just doesn't work that way. The whole argument I was making was based off of popular sovereignty, and since those are the terms under which the American citizenry can be condemned, it applies to all of them. The problem is with the concept of popular sovereignty. Punitive measures against just one part of the American population would be hilarious and a victor's justice; the realistic thing is to accept that the entire country is collectively guilty. The suitable punishment then is obviously reparations if punishment is in fact in order. Personally, though, as an American citizen, I have no desire for it; call me a bit selfish, in the metaphorical sense of a Nazi escaping to Argentina. As a ery practical matter, nothing will ever come of it; it's just an illustration of the limits and problems with the concept of popular sovereignty.