Clinton playing games with Obama at DNC

[Ma Deuce]

Uh, so would another term in the Senate. So does just about anything.

Yeah, but if Obama manages to serve two terms, than whoever became his VP would be almost guaranteed the next Democratic nomination. Look who became the nominees of their respective parties after the Clinton, Reagan, and Eisenhower administrations, for example.

[Glocksman]

You forgot Jimmy Carter's VP, who ran in 1984 against Reagan.
Though given the magnitude of his defeat, perhaps Mondale is better forgotten.

[irishmick79]

While some of the PUMA's are genuine Hillary supporters, keep in mind that a lot of them are GOP ratfuckers pretending to be Democrats.
Remember Rush Limbaugh's 'Operation Chaos'?

Otherwise why would a rational HRC supporter turn around and back fucking John McCain, whose positions on almost every issue are in total disagreement with Hillary, instead of Obama, whose positions closely track hers?

I think a lot of that has to come down to how people view race. Even if you're not racist, it would be hard to see how a black man could get elected president depending on where you live. If you see the kind of flat out racism in some areas of Ohio, PA, WV, IN, and elsewhere I can understand how somebody can come to the conclusion that nominating a black man would be a remarkably dangerous and risky choice. If that's the only side of racism issues you see, it would be hard to grasp how the rest of the country sees it that much differently.

[Darth Wong]

Why the fuck are we assuming that these people are switching parties because they're afraid that other people are racist? Isn't it simpler to think that maybe they're just racists themselves? That would handily explain why they won't vote for a black man.

[irishmick79]

Why the fuck are we assuming that these people are switching parties because they're afraid that other people are racist? Isn't it simpler to think that maybe they're just racists themselves? That would handily explain why they won't vote for a black man.

Because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on racism issues, even if they ultimately do turn out to be racist fucktards. Without having a whole lot of personal interaction with these voters, I'm just reluctant to throw around charges of racism without actually knowing any of them very well.

[Darth Wong]

Why the fuck are we assuming that these people are switching parties because they're afraid that other people are racist? Isn't it simpler to think that maybe they're just racists themselves? That would handily explain why they won't vote for a black man.

Because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on racism issues, even if they ultimately do turn out to be racist fucktards. Without having a whole lot of personal interaction with these voters, I'm just reluctant to throw around charges of racism without actually knowing any of them very well.

So you would cling to a meaningless theory which doesn't make any sense? If you think there are a lot of racists in your area and you're not one of them, why the fuck would you decide that the solution is to HELP THEM WIN?

[irishmick79]

Why the fuck are we assuming that these people are switching parties because they're afraid that other people are racist? Isn't it simpler to think that maybe they're just racists themselves? That would handily explain why they won't vote for a black man.

Because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on racism issues, even if they ultimately do turn out to be racist fucktards. Without having a whole lot of personal interaction with these voters, I'm just reluctant to throw around charges of racism without actually knowing any of them very well.

So you would cling to a meaningless theory which doesn't make any sense? If you think there are a lot of racists in your area and you're not one of them, why the fuck would you decide that the solution is to HELP THEM WIN?

I live in New England, so I doubt there are that many racists here. I was trying to think of what it would be like to not be a racist in an area dominated by them. I would think that it would be far easier to just keep your mouth shut and quietly bitch about racism than it would be to stand up and challenge it if you're one of the few in the community who will. People get beaten up and killed over this shit. If you've got a family to think about, wouldn't you think twice about challenging a horde of racists in your community if you can't reasonably expect that somebody will cover your back when people start throwing bottles through your windows?

[Darth Wong]

I live in New England, so I doubt there are that many racists here. I was trying to think of what it would be like to not be a racist in an area dominated by them. I would think that it would be far easier to just keep your mouth shut and quietly bitch about racism than it would be to stand up and challenge it if you're one of the few in the community who will. People get beaten up and killed over this shit. If you've got a family to think about, wouldn't you think twice about challenging a horde of racists in your community if you can't reasonably expect that somebody will cover your back when people start throwing bottles through your windows?

What does that have to do with ordinary voters who are making a point of speaking out that they would switch parties rather than vote for Obama? That is not hiding from reprisals; that is taking an active stand. As I said, they're obviously racists. Why else would they switch to vote for someone whose positions are almost completely the opposite of their chosen candidates' positions? You're just clinging to explanations that don't even make sense.

[irishmick79]

I live in New England, so I doubt there are that many racists here. I was trying to think of what it would be like to not be a racist in an area dominated by them. I would think that it would be far easier to just keep your mouth shut and quietly bitch about racism than it would be to stand up and challenge it if you're one of the few in the community who will. People get beaten up and killed over this shit. If you've got a family to think about, wouldn't you think twice about challenging a horde of racists in your community if you can't reasonably expect that somebody will cover your back when people start throwing bottles through your windows?

What does that have to do with ordinary voters who are making a point of speaking out that they would switch parties rather than vote for Obama? That is not hiding from reprisals; that is taking an active stand. As I said, they're obviously racists. Why else would they switch to vote for someone whose positions are almost completely the opposite of their chosen candidates' positions? You're just clinging to explanations that don't even make sense.

Wouldn't the fear generated at the local level translate into political views of the national dynamic? That's the point - all politics is local. If in your local area you can't imagine a black man holding significant politcial office, why wouldn't the average voter think the same thing about national level politics? I think a lot of it has to do with fear and voting for what's familiar. Old White Guy is familiar and in a lot of these areas probably more acceptable than Obama. It wouldn't surprise me in some of these more rural areas if announcing support for Obama would generate some serious backlash.

[Darth Wong]

Wouldn't the fear generated at the local level translate into political views of the national dynamic? That's the point - all politics is local. If in your local area you can't imagine a black man holding significant politcial office, why wouldn't the average voter think the same thing about national level politics?

That's bullshit. It's common knowledge even among rednecks that some parts of the country have different politics from others. Half of the divisive politics we've seen in the last 30 years are based around exploiting this very perception.

I think a lot of it has to do with fear and voting for what's familiar. Old White Guy is familiar and in a lot of these areas probably more acceptable than Obama. It wouldn't surprise me in some of these more rural areas if announcing support for Obama would generate some serious backlash.

Got any evidence to support this "violent reprisals" theory of yours, concerning Democratic convention delegates?

[Invictus ChiKen]

Got any evidence to support this "violent reprisals" theory of yours, concerning Democratic convention delegates?

Will you accept a personal account? Where I live support for the the DNC can land you a busted nose or worse.

I came within moments of having the living shit beat out of me back in 2000 for voicing support for Gore from my own family.

[irishmick79]

Wouldn't the fear generated at the local level translate into political views of the national dynamic? That's the point - all politics is local. If in your local area you can't imagine a black man holding significant politcial office, why wouldn't the average voter think the same thing about national level politics?

That's bullshit. It's common knowledge even among rednecks that some parts of the country have different politics from others. Half of the divisive politics we've seen in the last 30 years are based around exploiting this very perception.

How often do people actually try to understand political dynamics going on elsewhere even if they're aware of them going on? I would contend that the average voter, even if they're familiar with outside dynamics, will still spend their energy focusing on local issues and dynamics in the ballot box without necessarily incorporating outside dynamics into their worldview.

I think a lot of it has to do with fear and voting for what's familiar. Old White Guy is familiar and in a lot of these areas probably more acceptable than Obama. It wouldn't surprise me in some of these more rural areas if announcing support for Obama would generate some serious backlash.

Got any evidence to support this "violent reprisals" theory of yours, concerning Democratic convention delegates?

Here's an article by the Washington Post that discusses some of the racist incidents that Obama campaigners were experiencing in places like Indiana. Frankly, this kind of stuff isn't talked about in the media too much because it's pretty ugly stuff. I know it doesn't directly answer to the question of violent reprisals, but it does lay the ground work to describe how a lot of racist attitudes can quickly translate into violence. You only need to look at the reaction that American Muslims and some foreign students got after 9/11 happened to see how these attitudes can easily translate into violence.

[Darth Wong]

Got any evidence to support this "violent reprisals" theory of yours, concerning Democratic convention delegates?

Will you accept a personal account? Where I live support for the the DNC can land you a busted nose or worse.

These people are Democratic National Convention delegates, moron. If they were concerned about that, they would have defected from the party a long time ago.

I came within moments of having the living shit beat out of me back in 2000 for voicing support for Gore from my own family.

So you were raised by savages; that does not pertain to the point.

[Darth Wong]

Here's an article by the Washington Post that discusses some of the racist incidents that Obama campaigners were experiencing in places like Indiana. Frankly, this kind of stuff isn't talked about in the media too much because it's pretty ugly stuff. I know it doesn't directly answer to the question of violent reprisals, but it does lay the ground work to describe how a lot of racist attitudes can quickly translate into violence. You only need to look at the reaction that American Muslims and some foreign students got after 9/11 happened to see how these attitudes can easily translate into violence.

Not only does that not relate to the "fear of violent reprisals" that I spoke of, but it says absolutely nothing about why such a person would support McCain. Even if I was terrified of racist reprisals, I wouldn't support the fucking racists! I would simply withdraw from politics.

As I said, there is NO REASON to subscribe to your bizarre theory. These people are fucking racists.

[irishmick79]

Here's an article by the Washington Post that discusses some of the racist incidents that Obama campaigners were experiencing in places like Indiana. Frankly, this kind of stuff isn't talked about in the media too much because it's pretty ugly stuff. I know it doesn't directly answer to the question of violent reprisals, but it does lay the ground work to describe how a lot of racist attitudes can quickly translate into violence. You only need to look at the reaction that American Muslims and some foreign students got after 9/11 happened to see how these attitudes can easily translate into violence.

Not only does that not relate to the "fear of violent reprisals" that I spoke of, but it says absolutely nothing about why such a person would support McCain. Even if I was terrified of racist reprisals, I wouldn't support the fucking racists! I would simply withdraw from politics.

As I said, there is NO REASON to subscribe to your bizarre theory. These people are fucking racists.

Why is it bizarre?

You have a situation where a community is full of racists. Non-racists in the community try to speak up, fight back. A few bricks through windows, a few beatings, a few burning crosses in front yards over the years and non-racists eventually move out or get the message and start to keep their mouths shut. After a while, you simply stop having real discussions about racism in the area, and you're left with "white people vote for white people, black people vote for black people" type comments without any real discussion on why that is the way it is. A generation or two after that it just becomes what is familiar, and even otherwise non-racists growing up in the community would have their views shaped by the dynamic. The convention delegates at the DNC are ultimately chosen because the party thinks that they best represent the party in whichever area they come from.

People can always chose to fight the hard core racists in a community, but it should be an obvious conclusion that scenario doesn't always happen.

Fear plays just as big of a role in promoting racism as outright bigotry does.

[CaptainChewbacca]

And her name is on the convention ballot!

Deal: Clinton's Name Will Be Placed in Nomination at Dems Convention

August 14, 2008 11:09 AM

ABC News' Kate Snow reports: A deal has been brokered between Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton that will allow Clinton's name to be placed in nomination at next week's Democratic nominating convention, sources close to the Clinton camp told ABC News.

"Both sides agree that it is in the best interest of party unity and making sure that everyone's voice and vote is honored to make sure her name is put into nomination," a person close the negotiations said. "It's to honor everyone who worked so hard on both sides."(And to shut them up)

The two sides have been jockeying over how to win over Clinton supporters who were bitterly disappointed by her loss and the chance of seeing the first woman to win the presidential nomination of a major political party.

It is also apparent that Clinton is not being seriously considered as a running mate for Obama.

The deal to allow Clinton to be nominated is meant to help mollify those hurt feelings. (Awwww... her feelings are hurt? GOOD!)

It was unclear, however, whether the Obama and Clinton will make the announcement jointly or separately.

The details still being worked out, but Clinton's name will be put into nomination at the Denver convention on Wednesday. That will be one day after Clinton addresses the convention.

"This truly was a joint decision," according to the Clinton source. "This wasn't something she was itching for, looking for. But so many of her supporters said it was important to them. And the Obama people got how important it was to smooth over any tensions and that it was the right thing to do." (Yeah, and some people have greatness thrust upon them)

What also hasn't been settled yet is who will nominate Clinton and whether she will stand up with the New York delegation when they are called on.

What has been settled, however, is that after both Clinton and Obama names are placed into nomination there will be a roll call vote.

What has also been hashed out is that at some point during the convention, Clinton will release her delegates officialy to Obama and that she will make it very clear that she is voting for Obama, the source said. (COUGHBULLSHITCOUGH!)

One more thing...

As of last night, there are still no decisions on whether Chelsea Clinton will speak at the convention, although a Clinton source said, "I wouldn't be surprised if she did" introduce her mother.

That would make the convention a true family affair with Hillary, Bill and Chelsea Clinton all having podium time.

Ol' Barry better make sure he doesn't have an accident between now and the convention, otherwise it'll be a 'lucky coincidence' that they happened to have Hillary's name on the ballot.

[Darth Wong]

Why is it bizarre?

Because such fear might make people keep their mouths shut. It would not make them actively campaign on behalf of the racists. This is exactly what I said in my previous post; what part of it do you not understand?

You have a situation where a community is full of racists. Non-racists in the community try to speak up, fight back. A few bricks through windows, a few beatings, a few burning crosses in front yards over the years and non-racists eventually move out or get the message and start to keep their mouths shut.

See above. Again.

After a while, you simply stop having real discussions about racism in the area, and you're left with "white people vote for white people, black people vote for black people" type comments without any real discussion on why that is the way it is.

That's racism.

A generation or two after that it just becomes what is familiar, and even otherwise non-racists growing up in the community would have their views shaped by the dynamic.

A non-racist whose views have been "shaped by the dynamic" of endemic community racism? Would you mind explaining why that person should be considered a non-racist?

The convention delegates at the DNC are ultimately chosen because the party thinks that they best represent the party in whichever area they come from.

People can always chose to fight the hard core racists in a community, but it should be an obvious conclusion that scenario doesn't always happen.

Fear plays just as big of a role in promoting racism as outright bigotry does.

See the earlier response. Yet again.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Could she be angling for... maybe SECofSTATE?

Or is she just angling for damn-near anything at this point?

At this point, I'd consider pissing on her if she was on fire, but only so I could have the joy of knowing that I pissed on her.

Or to know that she will live with horrible disfiguring burns?

[Fire Fly]

Until Obama is formally made the party candidate, the Clintons are still scheming to usurp him. This was their exact argument that they made for keeping her name on the Michigan/Florida ballots: its not official but let the people have their voice!! If things go wrong, we can use it to our advantage, it things go right, we can forget them. Disgusting to the end.

[Darth Wong]

Clinton is definitely rising up the ranks in my "People I wish were struck by lightning" list.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Clinton is definitely rising up the ranks in my "People I wish were struck by lightning" list.

Out of curiousity, how long is that list? There's plenty of folks I don't like, but I'd have to think a bit on whether or not they're lightning-worthy.

[Darth Wong]

Clinton is definitely rising up the ranks in my "People I wish were struck by lightning" list.

Out of curiousity, how long is that list? There's plenty of folks I don't like, but I'd have to think a bit on whether or not they're lightning-worthy.

It's a pretty long list, mostly composed of media and political figures in North America. There are certainly others who are deserving of a lightning blast, but the obvious ones like murderers and rapists and ruthless African dictators are a bit of a gimme, so I don't bother including them.

You're not on it, by the way

[CaptainChewbacca]

Clinton is definitely rising up the ranks in my "People I wish were struck by lightning" list.

Out of curiousity, how long is that list? There's plenty of folks I don't like, but I'd have to think a bit on whether or not they're lightning-worthy.

It's a pretty long list, mostly composed of media and political figures in North America. There are certainly others who are deserving of a lightning blast, but the obvious ones like murderers and rapists and ruthless African dictators are a bit of a gimme, so I don't bother including them.

You're not on it, by the way

Thanks. I know I'm not on your Christmas Card list or anything, but I didn't think I done anything to merit lightning. And yeah, I don't put average murderers and such on my list, because I figure they're already on someone else's list.

[Isolder74]

Clinton is definitely rising up the ranks in my "People I wish were struck by lightning" list.

You should forward your list to Zues@Olympis.org.....

Perhaps your should mail them all metal spheres to place on their roofs?

[White Haven]

Shame Zeus's webmaster can't spell Olympus.