Yuuzhan Vong Invasion Fleet vs. Alpha/Beta Quadrants

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 03:36pm

Who takes it and how close is it?

I'm going for the Vong here by a very significant margin.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-28 04:26pm

The Feds can pull a number of tricks that the NR couldn't, giving the Vong one hell of a bad day. However weapons power, numbers, and production (especially production) goes to the vong. They can only really loose if they get their numbers smashed to pieces in phyric victories like they did in the NJO, or if the AQ/BQ powers develop a bioweapon liuke Alpha red and the Vong don't have a counter to it (something up in the air)

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-28 04:30pm

Wonder how the Borg and the Vong would get along?

Darth Phoenix · Post by **Darth Phoenix** » 2003-01-28 05:01pm

If the Vong can destroy or capture the homeworlds they would almost instantly won else it would just take them longer!

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-28 06:40pm

I don't know, the Vong might get sidetracked by that Dyson sphere and spend a few decades reducing it to scrap as a supreme affront to their religion.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-28 08:34pm

Alpha and Beta Quadrant in a close one BuT ONLY if they can develop some sort of biological weapon, which i think theyd be capable of given enough genetic material.

Of course the way Vongtech works the anomalies might alter the subati\omic phase radium of the warp core flux doloron radition valve and cause a huge explosion.

A better question would be, hw many Yhuuzan Vong with amphistaffs would it take to conquer Q'o'noss
(assuming every Klingon over age 7 has a batleth)

I say 14

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-28 08:38pm

Unless a sufficently powerful bioweapon is produced...I'd give it entirly to the Vong, given they can in general hang with SW tech, they can easily hang with ST tech.

And the Vong vs the Borg...oh yeah I see the Vong going apeshit over that particular affront to their religous views.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-01-31 02:00am

I remember hearing somewhere that Trek weapons are not affected by black holes. Given the hull strength of Vong hulls once they lose their black holes, they really aren't that much better than +TNG Trek hulls and shields. Now the size of some of their ships could prove a problem, but if a counter is already there for the Vong black hole shields, then it really isn't that bad. While their weapons might be strong, their defenses other than their PD singularities are pretty poor.

Also, I feel confident that some engineer somewhere will think of shooting weapons at percise angles to the black hole so that their shots are distorted around and come back and hit the ship behind the black hole just like the Wars techies eventually did.

And since by and large aside from their black holes and light armor Vong ships are shield less, Trek ships are going to have loads of fun transporting over and transporting out things. Once they get a rough idea of how Vong tech works, they could just transport off weapons emplacements and dovin bassals or transport over tricobalt explosives. With no way to interdict the transporter beam, this could prove very messy.

I wonder what setting a hand phaser to the rock heat setting would do to Vondun Crab armor? Nothing good I think. I wonder what Vondun Crab Legs taste like?

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-01-31 02:00am

I remember hearing somewhere that Trek weapons are not affected by black holes. Given the hull strength of Vong hulls once they lose their black holes, they really aren't that much better than +TNG Trek hulls and shields. Now the size of some of their ships could prove a problem, but if a counter is already there for the Vong black hole shields, then it really isn't that bad. While their weapons might be strong, their defenses other than their PD singularities are pretty poor.

Also, I feel confident that some engineer somewhere will think of shooting weapons at percise angles to the black hole so that their shots are distorted around and come back and hit the ship behind the black hole just like the Wars techies eventually did.

And since by and large aside from their black holes and light armor Vong ships are shield less, Trek ships are going to have loads of fun transporting over and transporting out things. Once they get a rough idea of how Vong tech works, they could just transport off weapons emplacements and dovin bassals or transport over tricobalt explosives. With no way to interdict the transporter beam, this could prove very messy.

I wonder what setting a hand phaser to the rock heat setting would do to Vondun Crab armor? Nothing good I think. I wonder what Vondun Crab Legs taste like?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-01-31 02:12am

HappyTarget wrote:I remember hearing somewhere that Trek weapons are not affected by black holes.

This would require some fairly substantial evidence before anyone were to accept it.

Given the hull strength of Vong hulls once they lose their black holes, they really aren't that much better than +TNG Trek hulls and shields.

Proof?

Now the size of some of their ships could prove a problem, but if a counter is already there for the Vong black hole shields, then it really isn't that bad. While their weapons might be strong, their defenses other than their PD singularities are pretty poor.

Proof?

Also, I feel confident that some engineer somewhere will think of shooting weapons at percise angles to the black hole so that their shots are distorted around and come back and hit the ship behind the black hole just like the Wars techies eventually did.

Ah. Just like the Federation figured out that Borg never adapt to kinetic weapons, you mean... oh, wait.

And since by and large aside from their black holes and light armor Vong ships are shield less, Trek ships are going to have loads of fun transporting over and transporting out things.

Yes of course. Don't mind the interference of a singularity, that should pose no problem to a system easily confused by solar flares and electrical storms.

Once they get a rough idea of how Vong tech works, they could just transport off weapons emplacements and dovin bassals or transport over tricobalt explosives. With no way to interdict the transporter beam, this could prove very messy.

When would they even get the time to get this rough idea, assuming all your other ludicrous ideas are true? The Vong have the numbers to take out any Trek battle group before they knew what hit them; Trek response times allow the Vong the priceless advantage that hyperspace brings to the table.

I wonder what setting a hand phaser to the rock heat setting would do to Vondun Crab armor? Nothing good I think. I wonder what Vondun Crab Legs taste like?

*sigh* Ignorant fanboys...

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-01-31 02:52am

This would require some fairly substantial evidence before anyone were to accept it.

IIRC it was from VOY in an epp where they used a phaser to crack a black holes event horizoin. Memory is sketchy, so if someone with a more concrete knoledge of Voyager epps also remembers it feel free to post something.

Proof?

Given that they are easily damaged by fighter weapons systems once they can get past the black hole, and given that IIRC ICS gives KT ranges to fighter blasters, that's well in like with Trek weaponary.

Ah. Just like the Federation figured out that Borg never adapt to kinetic weapons, you mean... oh, wait.

Oh wait exactly, the Borg only encountered kinetic weapons very infrequently, and could interdict kinetic attacks when they chose to do so. The way I see it, they adapt to the primary means of attack of their current enemy. Since the Feds use phasers, they adapt to phasers. Given that in Voyager we have seen them deploy anti kinetic shields, they have the tech, it's just that they don't really need to do so in FC for example.

Considering just how often the engineers of Starfleet save their ships bacon, and considering how rapidly they countered problems like Dominion shield pierceing beams and Breen energy dampening weapons, a simple computer analysis of the rate of attraction of a Vong singularity and compution of the angle of weapons fire needed to warp around black hole and hit the target on the other side is really not that complex. I was quite surprised that it took the wars galaxy as long as it did to figure it out. Why it still isn't in wide use as of Destiny's Way is beyond me but meh...

Yes of course. Don't mind the interference of a singularity, that should pose no problem to a system easily confused by solar flares and electrical storms.

The Vong don't drive around with their PD singularities on all the time now do they? They only bring them out to interdict weapons fire. If only used to interdict weapons fire, why would they be out when they are transporter attacked?

And confused transporters are a bad thing when you want the transporter subject to survive with no ill effects. If you are using it to tranport for bad things, the more interferance the better. Scatter the targets molecules across the cosmos, tranport them into a solid object. No fine control is needed if your trying to kill something.

When would they even get the time to get this rough idea, assuming all your other ludicrous ideas are true? The Vong have the numbers to take out any Trek battle group before they knew what hit them; Trek response times allow the Vong the priceless advantage that hyperspace brings to the table.

Given that the Vong seem to like employing the slow and cautious route instead of the direct assault up front route. They could have attacked and won Courisant immediately with the full weight of their forces, but instead chose to diddle around the outer rim and Hutt space first. I never said that hyperspace wasn't an important factor, but when you can beam a very high explosive onto every one of your ships, to say nothing about beaming all of your ground troops and assault forces into space or solid matter, It's easy to see that with transporters and no way to counter them, the vong are going to be at a decided advantage. And once they learn of the Borg, I tend to think they will be gunning for them first and at all costs, givning the other races time to break out the big guns in their respective arsenals. Things like phase cloak, nasty biological killing radiation, subspace weapons, ect.

*sigh* Ignorant fanboys...

Oh, that's such a great counter argument to my point I conceed right now. Sorry if my having a bit of fun irritated you so

While Vondun crab armor might be resistant to blaster bolts, phasers have repeatedly shown enough power to totally vaporize an adult human. That setting is bound to have adverse affects on biological armor, even one with a tough external shell.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-01-31 03:33am

HappyTarget wrote:
This would require some fairly substantial evidence before anyone were to accept it.
IIRC it was from VOY in an epp where they used a phaser to crack a black holes event horizoin. Memory is sketchy, so if someone with a more concrete knoledge of Voyager epps also remembers it feel free to post something.

Sorry. You either supply the evidence, or concede right now.

Proof?
Given that they are easily damaged by fighter weapons systems once they can get past the black hole, and given that IIRC ICS gives KT ranges to fighter blasters, that's well in like with Trek weaponary.

Where are their capital ships easily damaged by fighter weapons? Source, please.

Ah. Just like the Federation figured out that Borg never adapt to kinetic weapons, you mean... oh, wait.
Oh wait exactly, the Borg only encountered kinetic weapons very infrequently, and could interdict kinetic attacks when they chose to do so.

Outright lie. VOY Scorpion, First Contact. The Borg could not defend against kinetic attacks.

The way I see it, they adapt to the primary means of attack of their current enemy. Since the Feds use phasers, they adapt to phasers. Given that in Voyager we have seen them deploy anti kinetic shields,

No, we haven't.

they have the tech, it's just that they don't really need to do so in FC for example.

Standard Trektard mantra: "they really can do it if they want to, but they prefer to die." Ho-hum.

Considering just how often the engineers of Starfleet save their ships bacon,

This is an indication of shitty engineering in the first place. No SW ship would has violently detonated just from being tapped on the side by a low-velocity impact. No SW reactor has gone critical from a software problem. Et cetera.

and considering how rapidly they countered problems like Dominion shield pierceing beams and Breen energy dampening weapons,

The dominion shield piercing beams required the acquisition of the weapons technology as seen in "The Ship"; before that, they could do absolutely jack. The Breen energy dampening weapon IIRC basically sucked energy from Federation conduits. The fact that the Federation ships were insufficiently equipped to deal with such weaponry is only proof of poor design on their part.

a simple computer analysis of the rate of attraction of a Vong singularity and compution of the angle of weapons fire needed to warp around black hole and hit the target on the other side is really not that complex.

Basic tactics aren't complex either, but seem beyond any Federation ground forces. And these are people who think a mathematically defined boundary can have cracks (Voyager). They think "full stop" exists in space (Encounter at Farpoint). That Conservation of Momentum doesn't really exist (Schisms). Shall I go on?
Also, prove a Federation ship can hit Vong ships with such accuracy. Fed phaser accuracy is tremendously overrated. See TNG: Conundrums, among several.

I was quite surprised that it took the wars galaxy as long as it did to figure it out. Why it still isn't in wide use as of Destiny's Way is beyond me but meh...

Perhaps because it's difficult to hit with such a degree of accuracy, hence you need to have many guns in order to make sure?

The Vong don't drive around with their PD singularities on all the time now do they? They only bring them out to interdict weapons fire. If only used to interdict weapons fire, why would they be out when they are transporter attacked?

Because the transporters fire beams. These beams are detectable. And traveling with defenses offline in battle is what Trek captains do, not Vong.

And confused transporters are a bad thing when you want the transporter subject to survive with no ill effects. If you are using it to tranport for bad things, the more interferance the better. Scatter the targets molecules across the cosmos, tranport them into a solid object. No fine control is needed if your trying to kill something.

Except for the fact that you're not going to get a lock, of course, given that it's far more difficult to beam something out than beam something in.

Given that the Vong seem to like employing the slow and cautious route instead of the direct assault up front route. They could have attacked and won Courisant immediately with the full weight of their forces, but instead chose to diddle around the outer rim and Hutt space first.

Because they knew SW weapons could contend with their own. They wanted to build up an armada, and did.

I never said that hyperspace wasn't an important factor, but when you can beam a very high explosive onto every one of your ships, to say nothing about beaming all of your ground troops and assault forces into space or solid matter, It's easy to see that with transporters and no way to counter them, the vong are going to be at a decided advantage.

Mangled point aside, none of this is shown to be possible, and the Federation frankly seems too stupid to do this. A few exceptional captains like Picard understand basic concepts such as the concentration of fire, but that's it. Janeway used this tactic once, against a disabled Borg scout vessel whose shields were down. It was a completely useless tactic that wasted one of her precious torpedoes for no reason, when she could have used phasers.

That is the kind of brilliant tactics used by Starfleet's finest.

And once they learn of the Borg, I tend to think they will be gunning for them first and at all costs, givning the other races time to break out the big guns in their respective arsenals.

If the Vong assault the Borg, how would the rest of the galaxy know? Telepathy? Prescience? Galactic communication? No, wait, the Milky Way doesn't have any large-scale comm at all, does it?

Things like phase cloak, nasty biological killing radiation, subspace weapons, ect.

A predictable, if ultimately futile, argument. The phase cloak is lost tech. "Biological killing radiation"[sic!] is lost tech, and anyway Vong ships can deal with strong radiation, or they would not survive space. Subspace weapons are the exclusive toys of the Son'a, who seem to be out of commission.

Oh, that's such a great counter argument to my point I conceed right now. Sorry if my having a bit of fun irritated you so

You had no point. Even you must understand that armor that can withstand a 10 MJ thermal energy discharge will shrug off a beam that only heats a small rock.

While Vondun crab armor might be resistant to blaster bolts, phasers have repeatedly shown enough power to totally vaporize an adult human.

By NDF, not DET.

That setting is bound to have adverse affects on biological armor, even one with a tough external shell.

Vonduun armor is resistant to lightsaber strikes. Lightsabers melt blast doors. Phasers would do nothing.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-31 06:33am

HappyTarget wrote:a simple computer analysis of the rate of attraction of a Vong singularity and compution of the angle of weapons fire needed to warp around black hole and hit the target on the other side is really not that complex

1) Vong Dovin Basal defenses are not all of the same intensity
2) This is not a sterile enviroment where you can calculate said things from a static position.
Things that matters:
-your relative loaction location to the enemy ships location
-headings relative to you and said gun turret
-The gun turrets
-Possible random changes in velocity and acceleration
-The possible intensity of the singularity
-where it'll actually pop up
-timelag of the weapon

These factors are not even considered by you.

But they have stutter fire and know how to confuse the Dovin Basals, thats far more easy and therefore far more efficient since it works so well.

I was quite surprised that it took the wars galaxy as long as it did to figure it out. Why it still isn't in wide use as of Destiny's Way is beyond me but meh...

I was quite suprised to see a bunch of important factors left out of your notions.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-31 08:05am

If this plays out like the NR invasion did then the Vong don't have an numbers advantage over the Feds (at least not early on later they may if they can get ship building under way although I doubt the Feds will allow that).

Ground combat goes to the Feds as well - I used to think the Vong would own it but now I simply see the Feds using transporters to blow them up (the buried bomb that blew away one of the Vongs uber-tanks seemed obvious yet it worked like a charm).

Transporters have already been mentioned.

Phasers may or may not be able to bypass gravity (I have heard this before but was less than convinced by the evidence - I also don't think that phasers where used within the singularity), I however see very little reason why a phaser firing solution couldn't be used to bend around it.

A single Proton Torp has hulled a frigate before - of course proton torp yields vary but a few photon torps should be able to match it (again these is variable).

Vong weapon ranges aren't very good (the plasma cools after a few seconds although a few isn't exactly detailed) although again Feds weapons ranges move all over the place (torps range in the millions km I have heard).

Cloaks actually cloak the gravity of an object therefore Vong sensors shouldn’t be able to pick them up (not 100% certain of course).

Vong "shields" have shown an inability to defend against object not lit up like a flare when being operated by a Vong (bigger ships) this was put down to the confusion of battle meaning that perhaps their gravity sensors can get confused in a fur ball or that gravity sensors aren't linked to shields as standard procedure (this is due to different writers having different takes on the Vong).

The Vong do have weapons power (although this varies for writer to writer so much that it makes little sense), production (unknown to what degree however) and FTL advantages but warp has the bonus of being able to go inside a gravity field (giving the Feds a slight advantage in in system engagements).

I'm not sure on STL speeds - I have heard Destiny Way gives something but I haven't seen a quote (I currently have .1c as top speed from one book - Dark Journey I think).

After two years of war the Vong had taken over 100s possibly 1000s of worlds (Dark Journey again) now this seems odd when compared with the map the conclusions I have are
1)The NR is far smaller than the empire.
2)The empire was rather small (sorry no dice Canon>Eu)
3)The massive bulk of the NR is in the core and thus the Vong has only taken a small fraction of the NR so far.
4)The Vong have been taking space but not all of the inhabited planets within them for two reasons - they don't want to (unlikely given that the Vong think their Gods demand they take control of everything they can(in the galaxy at least)) or the Vong don't have the ability to control those worlds directly (too little manpower, ships etc) either way the Feds have at least 1000 worlds meaning that the combined total of the three local powers probably have a few thousand therefore the Vong may be hard pressed to control them all in a quick strike (they will need to wait for some extra ships to arrive).

There are a number of other problems with the Vong (bioweapons pysch warfare, holograms with grav generators (making fake ships)) and so on but I tire of typing and suspect I will get a few flames for what I have already wrote.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-31 12:35pm

HappyTarget wrote:I remember hearing somewhere that Trek weapons are not affected by black holes.

Quote now. The Voyager ep it was their warp field that made the crack, not their weapons.

Given the hull strength of Vong hulls once they lose their black holes, they really aren't that much better than +TNG Trek hulls and shields.

So a building madeout of trek hull material could possible survive a planet destroying blast now?

Now the size of some of their ships could prove a problem, but if a counter is already there for the Vong black hole shields, then it really isn't that bad. While their weapons might be strong, their defenses other than their PD singularities are pretty poor.

The stuff is poor next to GT level weapons. I really wnat to know how highend MT and TW level weapons compare

Also, I feel confident that some engineer somewhere will think of shooting weapons at percise angles to the black hole so that their shots are distorted around and come back and hit the ship behind the black hole just like the Wars techies eventually did.

Yes, and even then it is not common that that works. They usually have to rely on other shots getting the singularity out of the way first.

And since by and large aside from their black holes and light armor Vong ships are shield less, Trek ships are going to have loads of fun transporting over and transporting out things.

I really want to see them compensate for the varying hulls and constantly shifting gravity. I'm not saying they can't do it, but we have never seen that they can either.

Once they get a rough idea of how Vong tech works, they could just transport off weapons emplacements and dovin bassals or transport over tricobalt explosives. With no way to interdict the transporter beam, this could prove very messy.

Yes, because the singularities would not fuck up the transporter majorly. The transporter trick would only work from max range if that is outside Vong sensing range. Otherwise the shifting singularities would fuck up the transmission, just like they do with coms and such.

I wonder what setting a hand phaser to the rock heat setting would do to Vondun Crab armor? Nothing good I think.

Try nothing at all. They work by projecting a forcefield to stop incoming shots and lightsabres.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-31 12:41pm

HappyTarget wrote:IIRC it was from VOY in an epp where they used a phaser to crack a black holes event horizoin. Memory is sketchy, so if someone with a more concrete knoledge of Voyager epps also remembers it feel free to post something.

Assuming that was an actual black hole and not incompetance on the part of Voyager's crew, since it is impossible for a mathematically defined radius to have a crack.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-31 01:53pm

Yes, because the singularities would not fuck up the transporter majorly. The transporter trick would only work from max range if that is outside Vong sensing range. Otherwise the shifting singularities would fuck up the transmission, just like they do with coms and such.

Evidence that transporters are blocked by singularities?, if you haven't got anything that proves it I'm willing to look at what your assumption is based off .

I'm assuming you think the Vong will run with a Singularity always up (it has been noted they get tired) to block transporters (if they figure that out although it shouldn't be to hard) we also need to understand the range of the interference (Romulan cores are probably shielded to prevent any transporter blocking that may occur but its interesting to note that when DS9 thought a singularity was near by it wasn't mentioned that it was having any effect on the stations systems (and they recognised it as a singularity thus whatever blocking that was going on must have been light)).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 03:16pm

This is hopeless. View this thread to see Darkling already have his ass summarily kicked on the same subject. He's just going to spew the same bullshit over again.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... c&start=50

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-31 03:32pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:This is hopeless. View this thread to see Darkling already have his ass summarily kicked on the same subject. He's just going to spew the same bullshit over again.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... c&start=50

Still sore that I didn't think the Feds would sit there and wait for the moon to fall on them?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 03:35pm

And do what? Their weapons almost certainly can't hurt the Vong if they're not instantly shreded by TL fire, even assuming that phasers magically circumvent gravity, and even assuming that transporters will operate through very dense bioarmor capable of shrugging of TL blasts much better than ANYTHING in Trek.

You're a bullshitter, Darkling.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-31 04:17pm

TheDarkling wrote:Evidence that transporters are blocked by singularities?, if you haven't got anything that proves it I'm willing to look at what your assumption is based off .

I'm basing off the assumption that the transporter is sending a signal, and it was established in SbS that Dovin Basal singularities absorb transmissions. Thus I believe that it would scramble or absorb the signal.

I'm assuming you think the Vong will run with a Singularity always up (it has been noted they get tired) to block transporters (if they figure that out although it shouldn't be to hard)

No, I'm not. If you look, I specified that the Vong had to detect them first for them to be blocked and that they had to be outside vong sensing range for this to be garunteed to work.

we also need to understand the range of the interference (Romulan cores are probably shielded to prevent any transporter blocking that may occur but its interesting to note that when DS9 thought a singularity was near by it wasn't mentioned that it was having any effect on the stations systems (and they recognised it as a singularity thus whatever blocking that was going on must have been light)).

Like you said, probably shielded.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-31 04:37pm

IP:No you are acting under the false assumption that because scissors beats paper and paper beats rock that scissors must beat rock.

Coral skippers have been destroyed by droids (I’m sure the droids had some nice blasters but still) that puts their armour at less than AT-AT's (while this doesn't tell us a huge amount with regard to the Federation it is telling from an SW perspective), I also don't recall Vong hulls shrugging off TL (if they aren't immune to blaster fire then in truth they shouldn't be able to).

Their weapons have a limited life span and they actually burn through x-wings (I can remember at least one instance when someone had time to prepare for this when the plasma hit their X-wing).

The Dovin Basals can't protect against weapons fire they can't see - I mean come one the Vong are a joke (tech wise) and Vader would have been choking (bare hands sadly) the Warmaster within minutes of the Vong daring to set foot in the SW galaxy if the Empire where still around.

Ender: That’s pretty weak - comms still work during fur balls with singularities all over the shop, not only that you can't make a blanket statement especially when transporters are at least in part subspace based.

Radiation or weird effects given off by the singularity fair enough but signal interception, its very iffy and it will be limited in range just like the capture of TL's is.

By always up I meant during an attack (after the ships have been detected).

It doesn't really matter if its shielded if you are basing your assumption that the Singularity will absorb the transporter beam since we have no way to know if they would and we also know that coverage is less than complete.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-01-31 05:38pm

Well, the YV have the same advantage that the Imps or NR would in this situation: FTL speed. Vong FTL may not be on par with Imp/NR, but it's still many times faster than warp

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 11:21pm

TheDarkling wrote:Coral skippers have been destroyed by droids (I’m sure the droids had some nice blasters but still) that puts their armour at less than AT-AT's

And the XJ3 X-Wing also has less armor than an AT-AT.

TheDarkling wrote:I also don't recall Vong hulls shrugging off TL.

Are you stupid or simply denser than Darkstar?

The fucking point is if their hulls are not atomized by single shots from even light or medium TLs (which they're not) means they must be composed of highly exotic, very dense materials.

Transporters are not likely to be able to magically penetrate exotic, very dense armor.

Furthermore, active dovin basals and a ship that's even slightly manuvering would be surrounded with relatively intense gravitational distortions.

Expect transporters to instantly get through all of that? You're relying on a deus ex machina solution and stonewalling because you know the Vong would butcher the Federation.

TheDarkling wrote:Their weapons have a limited life span and they actually burn through x-wings (I can remember at least one instance when someone had time to prepare for this when the plasma hit their X-wing).

The fact they exhibit more damage per hit than laser blasts indicate damage in the multi-kiloton range. What's your point?

TheDarkling wrote:The Dovin Basals can't protect against weapons fire they can't see

BULLSHIT. TLs propogate at C. They obviously can superluminally detect incoming attacks and have quite rapid "reflexes" to defend.

TheDarkling wrote:I mean come one the Vong are a joke (tech wise) and Vader would have been choking (bare hands sadly) the Warmaster within minutes of the Vong daring to set foot in the SW galaxy if the Empire where still around.

Red herring. Just because the Empire would obliterate the Federation with one ISD doesn't mean the entire Vong invasion fleet would have issues.

TheDarkling wrote:That’s pretty weak - comms still work during fur balls with singularities all over the shop, not only that you can't make a blanket statement especially when transporters are at least in part subspace based.

Wrong. SW data indicates hyperwave technology is FTL transmission, and subspace is ancient to them.

Prove this bullshit that subspace anything completely negates gravity.

TheDarkling wrote:Radiation or weird effects given off by the singularity fair enough but signal interception, its very iffy and it will be limited in range just like the capture of TL's is.

How about the fact they can detect incoming entities at FTL and react accordingly. How about the exotic dense bioarmor? How about the gravitational distortions caused by Vong propulsion?

TheDarkling wrote:It doesn't really matter if its shielded if you are basing your assumption that the Singularity will absorb the transporter beam since we have no way to know if they would and we also know that coverage is less than complete.

Wrong.

The burden is on you to prove this bullshit about subspace anything penetrating gravitational singularities. Gravitational singularities are already observed to absorb all incoming matter/energy in physics. Your turn for proof.

Like I said, selective use and interpretation of evidence, ignorance of the overall picture, red herring, and total bullshit. Darkling's arguments, naturally.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-01 04:39am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:Coral skippers have been destroyed by droids (I’m sure the droids had some nice blasters but still) that puts their armour at less than AT-AT's
And the XJ3 X-Wing also has less armor than an AT-AT.

Yes but an X wing has shields to offset this disadvantage Vong ships have a very weak "shielding" system - if they can't see it tyey can't defend against it, not to mention that the shielding system when active limits propulsion.

TheDarkling wrote:I also don't recall Vong hulls shrugging off TL.
Are you stupid or simply denser than Darkstar?

Well I'am trying to reason with you so draw your own conclusions.

The fucking point is if their hulls are not atomized by single shots from even light or medium TLs (which they're not) means they must be composed of highly exotic, very dense materials.

Not as dense as AT-AT's apparently.

Transporters are not likely to be able to magically penetrate exotic, very dense armor.

Proof?, I mean its fun to just claim things but you should truy to back them up.

Furthermore, active dovin basals and a ship that's even slightly manuvering would be surrounded with relatively intense gravitational distortions.

I will agree to that (more or less) although those diustortions are very limited in range of effect.

Expect transporters to instantly get through all of that? You're relying on a deus ex machina solution and stonewalling because you know the Vong would butcher the Federation.

No I am not at all - its a way to fight and it would seem to work now please if you have anything other than bluster lets hear it, I mean I could harp on about Fed shiops having all sorts of subspace fields etc and say this proves TL's wion't work on them this would be just as baseless as what you are putting forward.

TheDarkling wrote:Their weapons have a limited life span and they actually burn through x-wings (I can remember at least one instance when someone had time to prepare for this when the plasma hit their X-wing).
The fact they exhibit more damage per hit than laser blasts indicate damage in the multi-kiloton range. What's your point?

They exhibits less firepower than stutterfire in the skip on skip battle, and the blaster fire damage to Vong ships puts their firepower around handheld blaster canon range - I would hardly call that multi KT, the fact that weapons of such low power can get past the hull speaks ill of their hulls and their weapons.

TheDarkling wrote:The Dovin Basals can't protect against weapons fire they can't see
BULLSHIT. TLs propogate at C. They obviously can superluminally detect incoming attacks and have quite rapid "reflexes" to defend.

First of all I disagree of TL's moving at C but thats a seperate debate however its been said on multiple occasions that they can't defend against what they can't see (the entire reason why shadow bombs work and the reason why their ground battle waggon type things couldn't defend against orbital bombardment).

Prehaps you should read the books?
Here I will help you "Beams flashed down through those clouds, but the manipulators of voids couldn't see them coming, couldn't maneuver the voids into place in time"
Yeah thats superluminal alright

(hey I earned it) they can't detect proton torps that are thrown at them either, they didn't detect the fake pipe fighter blast until it hit the hull and that thing have traveled from half a planetary system away.

TheDarkling wrote:I mean come one the Vong are a joke (tech wise) and Vader would have been choking (bare hands sadly) the Warmaster within minutes of the Vong daring to set foot in the SW galaxy if the Empire where still around.
Red herring. Just because the Empire would obliterate the Federation with one ISD doesn't mean the entire Vong invasion fleet would have issues.

It wasn't a red herring so much as wishfull thinking.

TheDarkling wrote:That’s pretty weak - comms still work during fur balls with singularities all over the shop, not only that you can't make a blanket statement especially when transporters are at least in part subspace based.
Wrong. SW data indicates hyperwave technology is FTL transmission, and subspace is ancient to them.

I know you must have a point... and yet.... you see because its ancient to the NR (if it is even the same subspace) doesn't mena the Vong have ever come across it.

Prove this bullshit that subspace anything completely negates gravity.

Who ever said it negates gravity - a subspace field does alter gravity in the local area (reducing it) but I wouldn't say it completely negates it, however if the Vong can't see the transport coming then they can't put a void in its path and since void coverage isn't total and they don't keep them always on..... I doubt you can see what I'm saying, ask a friend to explain it.

Basically if the Voids only limit transporters in a similiar way to tl's (only transporters can't be seen/sensed) then stopping them is going to be a very hit and miss affair.

TheDarkling wrote:Radiation or weird effects given off by the singularity fair enough but signal interception, its very iffy and it will be limited in range just like the capture of TL's is.
How about the fact they can detect incoming entities at FTL and react accordingly. How about the exotic dense bioarmor? How about the gravitational distortions caused by Vong propulsion?

Actually I always wondered about that - has it been said the Vong can detect vessels while in hyperdrive, I seem to recall in dark journey that the vong sensor mines pulled ships out of hyper space to get a reading on them (yet they could sense Vong ships.. hmm I will have to look into that).

Now I assume you are going to prove density stops transporters (the exotic thing falls because saying something is exotic doesn't make it uber) because I recall doing some calcs that pointed to the fact that it would take something like 80 m (I think it was 80 could have been 20) of Depleted Uranium to stop on a transporter beaming up.

The gravitional distortions well I have commented on that above - its all very well and good commenting on what may be the situation but you now have to link these factors to transporters in a way that shows the Vong biotech would stop it (as you are claiming these factors will).

TheDarkling wrote:It doesn't really matter if its shielded if you are basing your assumption that the Singularity will absorb the transporter beam since we have no way to know if they would and we also know that coverage is less than complete.
Wrong.

The burden is on you to prove this bullshit about subspace anything penetrating gravitational singularities. Gravitational singularities are already observed to absorb all incoming matter/energy in physics. Your turn for proof.

Like I said, selective use and interpretation of evidence, ignorance of the overall picture, red herring, and total bullshit. Darkling's arguments, naturally.

Yeah and the burden of proof is on you to prove that the moon landings were fake, however lets not ask each other to prove things we didn't assert shall we?
If transporter act like a tl boltwith relation to voids then transporters will get past (especially with them not being able to see them) you claim that they will have more of an effect on transporters (when due to susbpace junk and the beam being invisible it would probably be less) but give very little.. scratch that, no proof.

I understand your fear because in your narrow view of things it works something like this.

NR>Empire.
Vong>NR.
Feds(or in this case FKR)>Vong.

thus FKR>Vong, dopn't worry though only people with your learning differculties will think that, you may now dance around and shout that SW R0XX0RS or something like that.