Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That being said, I am dissapointed, though unsurprised, that 3rd world leaders who spend half their time ranting about western war mongering have seen fit to not chastise russia, much like how they remained strangely silent on checnya.

That's because ranting about the West = strong courageous man standing up to white men. Pretty much what is done in Singapore, Malaysia, or just about any non-aligned country.

[AniThyng]

That being said, I am dissapointed, though unsurprised, that 3rd world leaders who spend half their time ranting about western war mongering have seen fit to not chastise russia, much like how they remained strangely silent on checnya.

That's because ranting about the West = strong courageous man standing up to white men. Pretty much what is done in Singapore, Malaysia, or just about any non-aligned country.

I am aware of why that is so. Like I said, I'm not surprised. But it's interesting why Russia gets a free pass - Georgia is not muslim so I can sort of understand the indifference, but the silence on Chechnya was deafening, or filled with justifications about how it's "Russian territory to do as they please".

Isn't Singapore whoring itself to America though? It certainly looks that way when one builds a Nimitz-sized port, something you can be sure Malaysia is not happy about

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Isn't Singapore whoring itself to America though? It certainly looks that way when one builds a Nimitz-sized port, something you can be sure Malaysia is not happy about

Yes we are. But the Singapore Government doesn't like Western definitions of free speech, or anything that smacked of empowering the people to be too independent.

The Straits Times just ran an article "They hate us because we are too successful" recently. Nothing particularly new from the local propaganda paper.

[Elfdart]

But not as bad as FAUX News'.

I heard Sky News was pretty bad too. Was their coverage as bad, or worse than CNN's?

Isn't SkyNews owned by Murdoch?

[phongn]

Isn't SkyNews owned by Murdoch?

It is indeed.

[Edi]

Latest news in this morning's paper was that Russian troops have entered Georgia proper on the pretext of protecting the population of Gori. Apparently Russia forced a clause into the cease-fire agreement that essentially allows them to freely operate on Georgian side of the Georgia/SO border, so they are not in violation of any terms now, not technically anyway. According to that article, there have been both Georgian and independently confirmed reports of Russian and South Ossetian troops burning and looting in Gori. Refugees from South Ossetia who have fled to Georgia have also reported widespread burning and looting as well. They also claim Russian and SO troops killed civilians in several villages. Haven't had time to look for anything in English yet.

If there's any substance to these reports, it's not going to do Russia any favors. And if they are true, I will not be the least bit surprised.

[CJvR]

Latest news in this morning's paper was that Russian troops have entered Georgia proper on the pretext of protecting the population of Gori.

LOL! From who? Their SO-allies who are in Gori only because the Russians are... Using that excuse they could well protect their way all the way to Tiblisi.

[Duckie]

Latest news in this morning's paper was that Russian troops have entered Georgia proper on the pretext of protecting the population of Gori.

LOL! From who? Their SO-allies who are in Gori only because the Russians are... Using that excuse they could well protect their way all the way to Tiblisi.

It might be an error, they may have meant "Protecting the population of Tshinvali", which is correct as Gori is close enough to Tshinvali to shell- in fact, if I am not mistaken, Georgia has shelled Ossetia from Gori several times, although possibly not this latest time with the rocket barrage.

[Netko]

I should have brought this up a lot earlier, but I've been thinking and it occurs to me that we can't really condemn the Georgians for shelling Tskhinvali without better information, or at least I can't do it. It's said that the whole place was destroyed, but it's a town, the entire province of South Ossetia has 70,000 inhabitants, Tskhinvali must be pretty small, destroying by it accident shouldn't be that hard. I seriously doubt Georgian artillery, especially rocket artillery, is particularly accurate, we're probably talking CEPs of a few kilometres. Thus, the Georgian Army could very well have been aiming for military targets, and the destruction of the town was merely a side-effect. Sucks for the towns people, but it's not Georgia's fault they were living next a legitimate target.

NOTE: I still condemn them for attacking South Ossetia, however the attack itself seems to have been conducted in manner that is consistent with American standards during the 40s and 50s, which are the ones I tend to hold nations to.

Crappy CEP of your weapon systems doesn't absolve you in the eyes of international law, most clearly stated in the Martić verdict at the ICTY (which also was specifically about the use of non-guided rocket artillery):

The Trial Chamber will now focus on the M-87 Orkan. This weapon is a multi-barrelled rocket launcher, which launches non-guided rockets. The primary use of the M-87 Orkan is to target soldiers and armoured vehicles. The evidence shows that each rocket launched on Zagreb on the 2 nd and 3 rd of May 1995 contained a cluster warhead loaded with 288 so-called bomblets. These bomblets are ejected at a height of 1,000m above the targeted area. Upon impact, each bomblet explodes and releases 420 steel pellets. The lethal range of each pellet is ten metres. This means that each rocket releases around 120,000 pellets.

The maximum firing range is 50 kilometres and at this distance the weapon displays a targeting error of one kilometre in any direction.

The evidence shows that on the 2 nd and the 3 rd of May 1995 the M-87 Orkan was fired from the Vojnić area, near Slavsko Polje which is at the extreme of the weapon's range. The evidence shows that by virtue of its characteristics and the firing range in this specific instance, the M-87 Orkan was incapable of hitting specific targets. For these reasons, the Trial Chamber has found that the M-87 Orkan is an indiscriminate weapon, the use of which in densely populated civilian areas, such as Zagreb , will result in the infliction of severe casualties.

The Defence has argued that there were military targets in Zagreb at the time of the attacks on the 2 nd and the 3 rd of May 1995, including the Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Defence, Zagreb airport, and the Presidential Palace. I n view of the characteristics of the M-87 Orkan, the Trial Chamber has found that the presence or otherwise of military targets in Zagreb is irrelevant. The Defence's argument has therefore been dismissed.

So when the Russians are raging about how the Georgians have committed war crimes, by a plain reading of international precedent, they're right. It wouldn't surprise me if they brought up such charges in front of the ICC (where ICTY precedent is explicitly considered law) for the positive PR, since Georgia is a signatory of the Rome Treaty.

[Edi]

Latest news in this morning's paper was that Russian troops have entered Georgia proper on the pretext of protecting the population of Gori.

LOL! From who? Their SO-allies who are in Gori only because the Russians are... Using that excuse they could well protect their way all the way to Tiblisi.

It might be an error, they may have meant "Protecting the population of Tshinvali", which is correct as Gori is close enough to Tshinvali to shell- in fact, if I am not mistaken, Georgia has shelled Ossetia from Gori several times, although possibly not this latest time with the rocket barrage.

Get a refund on that crystal ball. It is not an error. There was nothing ambiguous in the article. Russian and SO troops have been sighted in Gori by e.g. UNHCR personnel. Russia itself has stated that the troops moved in there to protect the population of Gori because the Georgians are incapable of it. And the terms of the ceasefire are such that this sort of thing is within the realm of options available to Russia.

[Adrian Laguna]

Crappy CEP of your weapon systems doesn't absolve you in the eyes of international law, most clearly stated in the Martić verdict at the ICTY (which also was specifically about the use of non-guided rocket artillery).

I am aware of what international law says on the subject, and I must respectfully disagree with it on that point, as I do on many others (chemical weapons, most prominently). Far as I'm concerned, if you don't want your cities levelled, then don't put military assets in them.

[anybody_mcc]

LOL! From who? Their SO-allies who are in Gori only because the Russians are... Using that excuse they could well protect their way all the way to Tiblisi.

It might be an error, they may have meant "Protecting the population of Tshinvali", which is correct as Gori is close enough to Tshinvali to shell- in fact, if I am not mistaken, Georgia has shelled Ossetia from Gori several times, although possibly not this latest time with the rocket barrage.

Get a refund on that crystal ball. It is not an error. There was nothing ambiguous in the article. Russian and SO troops have been sighted in Gori by e.g. UNHCR personnel. Russia itself has stated that the troops moved in there to protect the population of Gori because the Georgians are incapable of it. And the terms of the ceasefire are such that this sort of thing is within the realm of options available to Russia.

From what I read (it was an interview with Russian general) they first moved to military base in Gori to secure ammunition and heavy weapons beacuse Georgian police and army fled the city. Then they secured the city to prevent looting, but are allowing Georgian police to move back in so they can start doing that themselves. Of course that maybe propaganda, but since this is the only town that Russian have presence in Georgia proper I rather doubt there are some sinister motives for their presence and am willing to believe them. Of course I would not be surprised if Ossetian or irregular troops really looted despite what the Russians are saying.

I will try to find a link to that interview.

[CJvR]

Russia itself has stated that the troops moved in there to protect the population of Gori because the Georgians are incapable of it.

Apparently the Russian troops are so inept at "protecting" they are not even able to protect a car owner 5 meters away from getting robbed...

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kauka ... 3104501.ab

[CJvR]

Oh and the Russian tradition of reporters coming to unfortunate ends seems also to be spreading...

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kauka ... 3103632.ab

[Edi]

Russia itself has stated that the troops moved in there to protect the population of Gori because the Georgians are incapable of it.

Apparently the Russian troops are so inept at "protecting" they are not even able to protect a car owner 5 meters away from getting robbed...

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kauka ... 3104501.ab

Oh and the Russian tradition of reporters coming to unfortunate ends seems also to be spreading...

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kauka ... 3103632.ab

Anyone who expected anything better is a fucking moron of the highest order.

[salm]

Oh and the Russian tradition of reporters coming to unfortunate ends seems also to be spreading...

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kauka ... 3103632.ab

What does she get shot at with? Is that riot police ammunition or something?

[Shroom Man 777]

Hrm...

TBILISI, Georgia - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that a proposed cease-fire she wants Georgia to sign with Russia protects Georgia's interests despite concessions to Moscow.

On her way to Tbilisi with the document, Rice said the immediate goal is to get Russian combat forces out of Georgia and more difficult questions about the status of the country's separatist regions and Russia's presence there can be addressed later.

"The United States would never ask Georgia to sign onto something where its interests were not protected," she told reporters aboard her plane as she flew to the Georgian capital from France where she met French President Nicolas Sarkozy who brokered the cease-fire.

"This is not an agreement about the future of Abkhazia and the future of South Ossetia," Rice said, referring to the two flashpoint areas. "This is about getting Russian troops out."

Rice will be consulting with pro-Western Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili about details of the cease-fire, which will require Russia to withdraw its combat forces from Georgia but allows Russian peacekeepers to remain in South Ossetia and conduct limited patrols outside the region.

The draft document also does not commit Russia to respecting Georgia's "territorial integrity," but rather refers to Georgian "independence" and "sovereignty," meaning Moscow does not necessarily accept that South Ossetia and Abkhazia, are Georgian.

Officials say the eventual status of the two areas will be worked out under existing U.N. Security Council resolutions which recognize Georgia's international borders and Abkhazia and South Ossetia as Georgian.

The U.S. and its allies had been pushing for Russia to agree to restore the situation in Georgia to the "status quo ante," or how it stood before Georgian troops moved into South Ossetia last week prompting Russia's severe response and seven days of bloodshed.

Now they have been forced to back down on the key issues of the mandate of Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, which did not previously include outside patrols, and the territorial integrity question, which Russia ostensibly accepted before but no longer does.

U.S. officials concede the agreement is not perfect but maintain it will get Russian combat troops out of Georgia, hopefully in a matter of days.

"It will be a major accomplishment for Georgia to get the Russians out of their country and back effectively to the status quo ante," Rice said. "I think that will be a major accomplishment."

In addition to the cease-fire document, Rice is carrying with her a letter signed by Sarkozy that clarifies the special security measures that Russian peacekeepers will be allowed to take on Georgian soil, officials said.

"These clarifications are meant to protect Georgian interests," she said.

If agreed, the cease-fire would allow Russian peacekeepers who were in South Ossetia before the fighting broke out to stay and to patrol temporarily in a strip of up to 6.2 miles, or 10 kilometers, outside, officials said.

"Any measures that they are allowed to take have got to be of a very limited nature for a very limited period of time," Rice said.

Officials say the expanded mandate would end as soon as a team of international monitors could be sent to observe, something they believe can be done in weeks.

Amid rising tensions with Russia over the situation in Georgia, Rice also said Thursday she would travel to Poland soon, possibly next week, to sign a missile defense agreement that Moscow vehemently opposes.

U.S. and Polish negotiators reached a deal on Thursday to deploy American interceptors in Poland as part of a European missile shield the United States plans. Under another agreement, a radar tracking station will be located in the Czech Republic.

Russia fiercely objects to the system and the agreement with Poland is bound to infuriate the Kremlin.

Rice was all smiles as she talked about it on Thursday. "I look forward to going to Poland to sign that agreement soon," she said. "It's important for the peace and security of the region, it's important for peace and security internationally."

Yep, the US is impotent - and still it continues to piss Russia off with Poland and the Czech Republic.

[CJvR]

What does she get shot at with? Is that riot police ammunition or something?

Looked like a round through her lower arm.

[Darth Hoth]

Anyone who expected anything better is a fucking moron of the highest order.

My morning daily has it that they are assisting the Ossetian renegades with the plundering and cleansing of ethnic Georgians. (Swedish, so no quote.)

[Darth Wong]

That being said, I am dissapointed, though unsurprised, that 3rd world leaders who spend half their time ranting about western war mongering have seen fit to not chastise russia, much like how they remained strangely silent on checnya.

That's because ranting about the West = strong courageous man standing up to white men. Pretty much what is done in Singapore, Malaysia, or just about any non-aligned country.

That explanation doesn't work when it's other white people who are following the same pattern. I think it has more to do with hypocrisy. Russia has just not made much of an effort to paint itself as an international defender of "freedom" and "democracy", so there is little point to screaming that it is not upholding those values. America, on the other hand, screeches about its moral leadership and "freedom" and "democracy" so loud that everyone else in the world just wants them to shut the fuck up, and people certainly have little tolerance for its many, many international violations of those principles.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That explanation doesn't work when it's other white people who are following the same pattern. I think it has more to do with hypocrisy. Russia has just not made much of an effort to paint itself as an international defender of "freedom" and "democracy", so there is little point to screaming that it is not upholding those values. America, on the other hand, screeches about its moral leadership and "freedom" and "democracy" so loud that everyone else in the world just wants them to shut the fuck up, and people certainly have little tolerance for its many, many international violations of those principles.

Well, I'm only generally referring to Asian nations, and to some nations in Africa in general. Politicians there occasionally or often establish their credentials by touting their "anti-West" rhetoric.

[CJvR]

Anyone who expected anything better is a fucking moron of the highest order.

Well I didn't expect the Russossetians to be quite that obvious about it after playing the game quite well so far.

[Bounty]

The Georgian president is on live; he's a piss-poor actor. His part of the press conference is just him bitching that NATO didn't help him.

[Bounty]

Now he says he didn't respond right because he and his staff were on holiday. Also, the dog ate his homework.

[Bounty]

It gets better: he's accusing Russia of using both cluster bombs and weapons of mass destruction. Must've been really, really small ones.