Challenging Spocktard to a debate

[Imperial Overlord]

Dark Heresy (still trying to decide what they were smoking when they did the layout)

The bright dreams of your future wrapped in the stillborn hopes of unborn generations.

[Stark]

The bright dreams of your future wrapped in the stillborn hopes of unborn generations.

Or just 'too cheap to pay a layout artist'.

[Thanatos]

Sorry for the delay on this, this was supposed to go up yesterday but my PSU died in what has been a Murphy's Law Month.

I'm going to stop you right here on the 40K front. As I said before, the tabletop rules are not canon for obvious reasons.

For example, under the new rules a glancing hit has been reducing in effectiveness by 30% and can no longer destroy a vehicle. Did armor get considerably tougher? No, because the game data does not reflect the source because of balance concerns.

How balanced? The movie marines list from the German White Dwarf recreated fluff marines on table top and they had characteristics close to that of the table tops medium armor. I seem to remember telling you all this before.

Hence why I said only qualitative information held, and only within a given army. Because the system is prone to large rounding errors and large errors based on "minor" balance adjustments, quantitative data (like saying armor just got 30% tougher) is impossible.

It's not even clear from the game that the Leman Russ and the Land Raider, from two different armies, both with AV14, have anywhere near equal armor. I see no reason, even from what you're saying, why I might not simply conclude - in the absence of other information, straight from the game mechanics - that Conqueror < Battle Cannon < Earthshaker < Demolisher in damaging effect, or that the Leman Russ is more heavily armored than the Chimera, or that the Laser Destroyer is more powerful than the Lascannon, which is more powerful than the Lasgun.

I also notice you have offered nothing in BT to dispute my treatment of mechanics there.

A bolter has a probable total yield per bolt, including kinetic and explosive energy, in either the e5 or e6 joule range. It is an automatic weapon, normally fed with magazines of 20-30 .75 caliber rocket-propelled explosive bullets.

This is quite a bit off since modern rifle rounds of similar caliber and velocity to the 8.25mm autogun are in the the 5-6KJ range.

If I were talking about the 8.25mm autogun:

The simple technology required to manufacture autoguns makes them common on frontier worlds where contact with the Imperium is infrequent, and also with gang members on Hive-worlds. As a weapon, the autogun is comparable in effectiveness to a lasgun but lacks some of the lasgun's versatility and reliability.

This particular autogun fires a long 8.25 caliber round, on either single shot, semi-automatic, and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 meters per second.

I would be quite a bit off. The Space Marines' bolter, however, is a larger and more powerful weapon, and fires high-explosive shells.

Actually, it has performance far superior to WW2 arty. You grabbed your figures from one of the IAs but seem to have mysteriously left out the muzzle velocity of 814 meters per second which translates to a range of around 70km.

Assuming g=9.8m/s^2, and no air resistance, the range is a hair under 68 km. However, neglecting air resistance gives pretty poor precision past 30 m/s, and absolutely terrible results past Mach. Air resistance increases with speed, meaning that you get less and less out of increasing muzzle velocity.

As indicated here, a WWII-era 134mm naval gun used by the British, firing a 36.3 kg shell at 792 m/s, had a range of 21 kilometers. The Bofors 40mm gun, with more surface area, only had a ~10 kilometer maximum range in spite of a ~900 m/s muzzle velocity. Shell ballistics, rather than muzzle velocity, are the main limitation on range - very clearly, shells used by the Imperial Guard have poor ballistics. Please note, incidentally, from that website:

This was a somewhat large caliber for a DP gun, but chosen because it was considered that this size would provide the maximum weight of shell that could still be manually handled by the average gun crew.

This will be important later. The 15-16 km range figure is repeated in Imperial Armour volumes I, III, and V, in narration as well as fluff text.

The Earthshaker is a 132mm calibre weapon, capable of firing a shell over 15 kms at a velocity of 814 mps. Such is the power of Earthshaker shells that they are easily capable of destroying enemy vehicles, strongpoints, or buildings.

The cannon itself is a model of reliability and consistency. Using its standard 5 powder charges, the Earthshaker can reach out to approximately 16 km with a 38 kg shell. Earthshakers mounted on platforms are sometimes issued with charges 6 and 7, in an attempted to increase this range. This induces considerable strain and eventually leads to erosion of the firing chamber so that correctly sealing the breach before firing becomes impossible. Firing charges 6 and 7 is occasionally allowed, but must be authorized by high command, and is only used with good reason. Not more than twenty rounds are allowed through any given gun, and crews often keep a tally of overcharged shells on the gun itself. Basilisks do not use overcharging, as the Chimera chassis is not considered stable enough, making shots wildly inaccurate.

The Earthshaker cannon is a 132mm calibre weapon, capable of firing a shell over 15 kms at a velocity of 814 mps. Such is the power of the gun that it is easily capable of destroying enemy armoured vehicles, strong points and buildings. Fired using the standard 5 charges, an enclosed Basilisk cannot use the larger charges 6 and 7, due the recoil restriction of the fighting compartment. This slightly limits the gun's maximum range when compared to open-topped or platform-mounted Earthshakers.

Heavy Earthshaker barrels were raised to the sky... Nearly fifteen kilometers away the shells landed with a splintering crash...

The Earthshaker is the Imperial Guard's standard artillery piece. It is a 132mm calibre weapon, capable of firing a 38 kg shell at a velocity of 814 mps. So a shell fired to maximum range would take 19 seconds from firing to impact. The cannon itself is a model of reliability and consistency. It uses its standard five powder charges, but this can be increased with the addition of charges six and seven. This will increase the range at the risk of additional wear and stress on the gun itself... No gun may fire more than twenty overcharged rounds.

For comparison sake, the M107 HE is the standard modern 155mm round and it has a muzzle velocity of 540m\s and a 42kg warhead and has a range of 15km. Which is probably where the incorrect 15km range figure comes from, IA is notoriously inconsistent.

I doubt the 15 km range was pulled specifically from the M107, although it's possible. Muzzle velocity and range were probably both pulled from a lighter gun. Note that the only source I could find disputing the 814 m/s muzzle velocity was the outdated "Imperial Armour":

CALIBER: 12.5cm
MUZZLE VELOCITY: 410 mps

It also gave a barrel length of 9.00m, which I will assume is accurate, but I believe the more recent sources qualify as a retcon. They're really remarkably consistent in how they describe the Earthshaker.

Modern guns are well below the level of 40K guns. The Conquerers gun had a recoil force of 190 tonnes while a modern 120mm has a recoil force of 56 tonnes. Shell effectiveness and ammunition type play a part.

Depends on how we choose to measure recoil force. The Conqueror has a very short barrel proportionate to its diameter, meaning a light gun relative to the shell, meaning more kinetic energy applied to the recoiling barrel.

It also means the force on the bullet and the barrel itself are being applied over a shorter distance; the Conqueror barrel is 2.49m (Imperial Armour) while the Abrams barrel, a sample modern tank barrel, is 9.77m. 190T*2.49m=473T*m; 56T*9.77m=548.8T*m - that's 16% more energy.

Furthermore, the above citations make it clear that the Earthshaker operates at close to the maximum recoil of the Chimera chassis, which also constrains the force of WH40K tank guns.

Third, we have this lovely description:

The demolisher cannon is used to blow passageways through the walls of buildings and the assault dozer is used to bull its way through obstacles and smaller structures... [the Codex] advises a Space Marine squad should advance from building to building by blasting holes in the walls of adjacent buildings, after their supporting Vindicator, outside in the street, brings the target building under devastating close range fire.

Blowing man-sized holes in walls is within the capabilities of modern MBT guns.

Actually, like modern tanks they have far greater muzzle energy than artillery. So already we can see you're way off track on tank guns and how they stack up.

Assuming the Conqueror manages to apply a peak 190 tonne force for the whole 2.49m length of its barrel, it has a muzzle energy of 4.6 megajoules. The Earthshaker, as described above, has a muzzle energy of 12.6 megajoules.

Keep in mind this is the light cannon version of the Leman Russ and that's just the recoil force. Also remember that tank guns are far more powerful than arty guns.

Not necessarily. It depends on the type of artillery. Close naval fire support, for example, has usually involved guns much more powerful than tank guns. Also note that even the 155m shell you described has a muzzle energy of 6.1 megajoules - not terribly far from a modern kinetic penetrator.

I find this highly spurious, as your previous calcs using supposition that reduced the yield, resulted in a figure of 6 gigajoules. Where did you pull this lower figure from? Especially since Hellguns are in the low to mid range double digit MJ according to IA5 and events from fluff. And they don't stack up well compared to multilasers, much less lascannons.

My calculations were that if lascannons could perform a feat I have never seen them perform, then they could have a yield of that much. Please do cite specific quotes when you make claims. As it so happens, IA5 supports something smaller:

The standard armament of the grenadier squads is the type XIV lasgun (heavy), referred to by troops as the 'hellgun' or, more rarely 'hotshot' lasgun. In effect this is an overpowered lasgun, firing in the 28 megathule range and incorporating many additional features. The weapon's powerpack is worn as a backpack, and the power cables run to the weapon's rapid discharge generator, which forms the weapon's main mechanism, where energy for each shot is fired. The heavy powerpack supplies enough power to keep the weapon firing for two hundred shots, depending on the power settings and the weapon's condition.

Most generous interpretation: 28 MJ/shot * 200 shots = 5.6 GJ. Considering the man-portable scale of the lascannon, and the size of the power pack displayed on the Space Marine-portable variant, I expect at least three shots per infantryman's-backpack of power pack. There is, of course, also Azazel's spread:

Laser Generator: 3.9 megawatts

Laser generator capable of full charge from dead in 2 hours, good for 1 hour of full combat.

28-42 GJ expended in an hour of combat, depending on whether or not the generator operates during combat or not. Anything less than one shot per 85 seconds falls under 2 GJ consumed per shot, which is definitely less than 2 GJ delivered to target.

Third: For a gigajoule-range weapon applying its energy to a small volume in a fraction of a second, common accidental targets (including boulders, humans, and trees) will superheat into vapor and kill nearby unarmored infantry. We see no such collateral damage in the game, nor in any description of lascannon firing I have yet witnessed.

Meltas can vaporize whole swaths of troops with a single burst and cause flashburns from superheated air.

Jurgen's melta ripped a ragged hole through their lines, vaporising flesh and bone, to leave a narrow corridor of flash-burned victims writhing and screaming on either side where the air around the superheated plasma burst had scorched and seared them, and the rest of us opened up on the survivors to widen it.

Triple MJ to single GJ secondary effects.

(Please indicate which novel this quote is from. That's a whole series to sort through.) Not secondary, total effects. With an extended burst. Moreover, we have two better examples.

His voice was drowned out by the abrupt hiss of the melta as Jurgen fired into the wall, instantly flashing a dozen cubic meters of ice into steam, which condensed almost instantly in the subzero temperatures, filling the narrow passageway with mist.

30-40 gigajoules delivered to target, depending on overheat. 19,000+ cubic meters of steam generated in a narrow passageway, also depending on overheat. No violent overpressure, so this should be a pretty long "instant." 1-10 GW and a relatively wide passageway still give fairly violent winds.

They captured an entrance to a personnel shelter and, after a melta-gun blasted the steel door into molten metal, Tyborc led them down the ferrocrete steps into the bunker below.

Note the lack of vaporized metal and the ability of Imperial Guards to follow the melta-blast closely. If the steel door is 100-1000 kg and more or less given minimal energy to melt in a 0.1 second blast, this is 1-10 GW.

With a roar of super-heated air the melta-gun hit, and whatever it was lurking in the darkness died, turning into a slimy pile of oozing ichor by temperatures that could melt plasteel in a second.

Much the same.

And a Melta is an inferior AT weapon compared to the Lascannon. Jurgen has to aim for a weak spot to disable the track of a Leman Russ.

Quote?

In storm of Iron multimeltas rated at high double GJ were unable to directly destroy a Demolisher and only succeeded because they managed to melt the barrel without the TC knowing when he fired.

Rated at double digit GJ where?

Limited ammunition? Where do you get that from?

It's a weapon that fires a stream of superheated gas.

This seems rules pulled. In fluff, only high end AT weapons have any near guarantee of a first round kill.

Guarantee? Of course not. Strong possibility? Thus speaks the fluff:

The lascannon fires a powerful blast of laser energy capable of cutting through the thickest armour plating.

Within the gun itself is a laser chamber that charges an explosive energy blast capable of blasting apart any enemy vehicle.

Now, it may not be able to pierce Land Raider armor at a very wide range of angles, but it can indeed do so. Tau railguns, however, seem in particular effective:

No Imperial commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before... Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against the Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell. Where once Imperial commanders had thought the Titans untouchable to all but a Manta's firepower, suddenly the Tau had a new tactical weapon capable of killing the mighty war machines.

On the battlefield, the Broadside is a tank-hunter. Its railguns can cut through almost any armour, and it is small enough to utilize cover well. The distinctive whip-crack sound and hyper-sonic speed of a railgun became synonymous with the desert fighting on Taros.

Our tanks were useless. As soon as we broke cover, their battlesuits' heavy guns were locked onto us. I swear it was as though they had someone nearby aiming for them before they shot. And when they did shoot... Emperor's mercy! Their guns punched through our armour like it was paper. All I could see were trails of fire where the projectiles had ignited the air.

And of course, the heavier guns - the Demolisher, Earthshaker (quoted above), Vindicator (see below), etc - do so pretty well:

Though short-ranged, the Vindicator's Demolisher cannon is capable of destroying enemy armour and fortifications in a single shot.

That's because you're using the "conventional steel" quote out of context purposely. Any quote referring to "conventional steel" is done by in universe fluff and refers to Plasteel which is the metallic material in common usage on Imperial vehicles.

I'm going to have to have a source for that - and it better be a good one, because I already have a quote that contradicts that claim:

Due to its STC roots the Rhino can be constructed using locally available materials. Most Rhinos are constructed of a bonded ceramite layer over a cast plasteel hull, although others use carbon composite compounds or conventional hardened steel, depending on their origin.

The Rhino is usually constructed with plasteel... but can be constructed using conventional hardened steel.

On top of that, plasteel can be forged by hand:

Not being front line combat troops, the garrison auxilia were not generally issued with any form of body armor, and this trooper has corrected this with hand-forged plasteel plates. These will provide rudimentary protection in battle, especially in hand-to-hand combat, but also against lasgun rounds.

On top of that:

Such is the power of the gun and the sophistication of the ammunition that there is no known armour a Vanquisher cannon cannot penetrate, even the thick armour of a Titan can be punctured.

Also called sub-calibre munitions, high velocity anti-tank shells or 'Vanquisher' shells (because they are only fired by the Leman Russ Vanquisher tank). A Vanquisher shell is a solid dart of super dense metal contained within a lightweight 'shoe' or case. The dart is only about a third the calibre of the actual shell (hence sub-calibre). Once fired, the case will drop away leaving just the speeding dart.

BARREL LENGTH: 6.50m

A relatively primitive version of the modern discarding-sabot round. The high-density segment is 3.5 (sub)calibers long, and tipped with a ballistic cap that extends the projectile 1 more caliber. Assuming mostly depleted-uranium construction, and a caliber of 40mm (one third of 120mm) gives a ~10 kg sabot. Modern discarding-sabot projectiles are smaller, but narrower, with similar density of kinetic energy assuming similar velocity (reasonable given the Earthshaker data) and better flight characteristics (fin stabilized) meaning better penetration under the standard models for handling high-velocity projectiles.
Vanquisher rounds do have a higher energy, and will therefore cause more damage following penetration of armour; however, it fits fairly well with the steel armor equivalences listed being not terribly far from RHAe figures for kinetic penetrators:

Equivalent to 240mm of conventional steel.

Equivalent to 365mm of conventional steel

Due to its STC roots the Rhino can be constructed using locally available materials. Most Rhinos are constructed of a bonded ceramite layer over a cast plasteel hull, although others use carbon composite compounds or conventional hardened steel, depending on their origin.

The inner layer provides the main protection. Its a bonded ceramite/adamantium alloy which provides protection equal to over five times the same width of conventional steel, while being lighter. The second layer is a reinforcing thermoplas with a sub-dermal energy dissipation fibre mesh, providing protection against extremes of heat and radioactivity. The outer layer is a non-magnetic acrylic identification sheath. All in all, this corresponds to over 200mm of conventional steel on the front of the vehicle.

The front armor is 98mm thick, but provides protection equivalent to approximately 300mm of conventional steel.

Actually, there is plenty of evidence of extreme speed governors, which are routinely removed by crews (known in universe as being overcharged) despite being forbidden by regulations.

There's a good amount of inference at them being able to pull modern speeds easily when properly tuned.

That's ignoring all the contradictions in IA itself in the statistics from vehicle to vehicle much less compared to the rest of the universe, as I mentioned before. Which is ironic, as I seem to remember you having problems with a book that you believed to be non reflective of the universe in question.

Incredible something or other?

By all means, present such evidence. In the mean time, I refer you to Azazel's scanned spread, which gives 840 horsepower for a Leman Russ variant (not especially high for a >60 ton tank), and also refer you to the speed of the Imperial Guard's advance on Taros:

After ten days it had made up to one hundred fifty kms; it was behind schedule by between 30 and 50 kms but the broad front was still moving northwards daily.

In the universe, overcharging also has consequences, and supercharged engines rarely used, right? The IA specs are remarkably consistent on speed, as well, strangely. If you want to claim a contradiction with "the rest of the universe," provide evidence for it. The Imperial Guard bogs down. Imperial Armour Vol V describes years of trench warfare on a single static front:

The result was that for long periods of time, sometimes years, the front was entirely static.

Depends really on the type of armor. There have been numerous GJ events, from repeated Hellgun fire to close range plasma detonation.

Lacking are both the incidents and the demonstration that such incidents are GJ range.

Evidence needed.

You don't believe anything I said about BT?

A particle projector cannon's shot puts out a total energy in the e10 joule order of magnitude, and causes significant harm to infantry who happen to be simply near the target. The large laser is not far off from this and similarly causes lethal thermal effects on nearby humans. Even small/medium grade lasers have been observed causing significant destruction in the e9 joule range.

PPC (tens of GJ due to melting glass across the street, significant harm to people):

What cut off her words was a bolt of blue fire hitting the ground in front of the Aung house, the blue fire momentarily blanking Cassie's vision. Through great maroon clouds of afterimage, she saw the big front window shimmer and simple melt away, felt a rush of heat on her face like the hot breath of air when she squatted too near while her mother slid her baking in and out of the oven... In the Aung yard, men were on fire.... The burning men had fallen to the ground. The whole Aung house was ablaze with flames.

Large laser (several GJ per cubic meter of sand):

The single laser he fired missed low, melting a huge glistening
patch of sand into glass before it shattered.

Large laser (multiple infantrymen):

It raised the laser clutched in its right hand and the spotters disappeared in a flash of ruby light.

One heavy laser missed the 'Mech and brushed the running scout like the wings of the Angel of Death. Conteras the truchaseno simply exploded like an insect that had blundered into an electronic bug zapper. Billy Huckaby, the Black hillbilly who was the baby of the platoon, fell down screaming, hair and jacket on fire, polymer armor melting to his flesh...

Medium laser (a few GJ required to match “daisy cutter” through inefficient thermal weapon; incident may be inspired by game-mechanical ability to clear a 15m radius area of wooded terrain using a medium laser in one 10 second turn.)

The impact must have just about driven the MechWarrior's spine out the top of its skull, but he is firing his medium laser and machine guns into the grove even as he hits. Thick boles fly apart in clouds of splinters. Huge leaves wilt in the heat and fray of the bullet-storm. In triumphant fury the Locust lays the stand of trees to waste.

Small laser (minimum several GJ per cubic meter melted):

She swiveled the rear-mounted small laser... The laser’s initial hit caused the encased air and gas that formed the crystal to explode, sending up spears of shrapnel into the Hellbringer’s torso. The laser’s heat also melted the crystal, which flattened beneath the enemy ‘Mech’s supporting foot. .. The Hellbringer slid as the crystals turned to molten rock.

A standard gauss rifle is a 100mm 125kg caliber hypersonic solid slug of some ferromagnetic material with a kinetic energy of 720-1000 megajoules, and enough momentum to cause a BattleMech to skid, plow, or lurch multiple meters. The muzzle velocity of other gauss weapons is similar, although not necessarily exactly the same.

One hypersonic slug missed wide, punching through a building behind the Hauptmann and leaving an impressive wound behind.

The Gauss rifle used a series of magnets to accelerate a nickel-ferrous slug ten centimeters in diameter. The payload burst almost silently from the barrel, but the violent kickback rocked the Caesar back slightly.

Recoil shook the cockpit as the 125-kilogram, magnetically accelerated projectile streaked toward its target, the snap of the sound barrier breaking the only evidence of its discharge.

The Gauss rifle uses a series of magnets to propel a projectile through the rifle barrel toward a target. While it requires a great deal of power to operate, this weapon generates very little heat and can achieve a muzzle velocity twice that of any conventional weapon.

Of course, not even an armored assault vest would withstand the impact of a Zeus sniper's round the size of Cassie's little finger traveling five times the speed of sound.

Note the Compendium refers to any conventional weapon. The highest velocity conventional discarding-sabot rounds are getting quite close to 2 km/s now, and in spite of any loss in technology, at least Mach 5 remains possible for conventional guns in the BT era. Velocity of these rounds is therefore 3400-4000 m/s. This explains the substantial recoil.

The gauss rifle described above will either barely pierce or barely be stopped by a 10 gram/cm^2 layer of BT armor.

The surface area of a 1.7m human is roughly 2 m^2. A 12m BattleMech therefore has roughly 100 square meters of surface area. 10 tons of standard BT armor, distributed in an even layer, gives approximately 15 points per hit location. Accordingly, 10 g/cm^2 is at or near the thickness required to stop a Gauss round (within 10%, accounting for rounding effects).

Armor used on BattleMechs generally exceeds the penetration of modern tank rounds by a comfortable margin.

A piece of steel no thicker than my finger, strengthened by radiation casting techniques and impregnated with a sheet of woven diamond fibers, had stopped cold an armor-piercing shell. That same shell would have gone straight through a third of a meter of normal steel.

“Stopped cold” indicates a comfortable margin.

Based on WorkMechs and the genius of various research groups, the MCK-5S Mackie easily outclassed any weapon that any member-state could put on the field.

There is also the reductio argument thus: BattleMechs rendered conventional tanks of the day, which at worst were similar to modern tanks of the day, completely obsolete. As highly visible targets, this entails being able to take hits from modern tank guns.

Third, see above section regarding gauss rifles. By any measure, the gauss rifle far exceeds modern tank AP rounds; by density of kinetic energy, the dominant factor for high-velocity penetrators, should penetrate close to 10m RHAe.

BattleMechs are quite nimble, and have superior mobility to tanks with similar top speeds.

A blue BattleMaster, Macho Alverado's Macho Man, kicked out one leg on a White Locust, which sent the 'Mech crashing down to the ground. Dark Lady charged up, waving her arms and whistling. Macho tried to crack her in the head with the Fusigon Longtooth extended-range PPC in his 'Mech's right arm. Lady K blocked, then stuck her Atlas' right leg behind Macho Man's ankle, put her right palm against his chest, and dumped the BattleMaster to the ground with a creditable leg-throw and a thump that made Uncle Chandy's teeth knock together with an audible clack.

Show me a tank nimble enough to do judo - or one with the ability to climb sideways on a sheer cliff:

The jagged side of the mountain betrayed her as she stepped to the left along a ninety-degree slope with her Linebacker Prime.

• Powered battle armor mount weapons that are on par with the very lightest weapons used on BattleMechs.
• Most BattleMechs have a rated top speed between 60 and 100 kph. Most tanks also fall in this range.
• BattleTech battle armor and BattleMechs tend to be jump-capable, like Tau crisis suits.

If you're disputing these, I recommend you read unit profiles on Chaos March, a free repository containing all but the most recent "official" BattleMechs and battle armor units.

One heat point in the game from an energy weapon represents on the close order of one gigajoule of waste heat.

A BattleMech is comprised of a number of elements with varying room-temperature capacities - boron nitride (0.6-0.8 J/gK), glasses (0.5-0.9 J/gK), aluminum (0.9 J/gK), steel (0.5 J/gK), assorted plastics, synthetic fibers, and rubbers (0.9-4 J/gK), titanium (0.5 J/gK), nanostructured carbon (0.7-0.9 J/gK), various liquid coolants (2-5 J/gK), air (1 J/gK). Overall, we expect the heat capacity to be fairly close to 1 J/gK at normal operating temperatures.

There is also the harsh environment rule, dictating 1 heat point per ten degrees Celsius. Apply to a 100 ton BattleMech, which will retain the greatest portion of its weapons waste heat: 10K/HP*1J/gK*100,000,000g = 1,000,000,000J/HP.

The high explosive component of BattleTech autocannon shells accounts for the majority of their destructive effect against BattleMechs. The precise explosive mechanism of these uranium-tipped supersonic shells may vary.

Since Gauss rounds are at least twice as fast, they have four times the kinetic energy per unit mass - and yet for the total ammunition weight, including propellant, they only do 1.2 times as much damage. Ergo, the autocannon rounds are not primarily kinetic weapons.

Damage value is in general proportionate to armor shattered (kinetic weapons) melted/vaporized (thermal weapons), or a combination of the two (explosive weapons).

The Com Guard MechWarrior stayed with his 'Mech long enough for Jez's Warhawk to shred two tons of his armor in a wracking series of laser blasts doled out at devastating range.

They missed a fast lance of Scarabus designs that bolted for the backside at better than one hundred kilometers per hour. Only two survived to take a swing at Victor's Daishi. One missed. The other carved away a half ton of armor from Prometheus's arm.

Peter squeezed out another gauss rifle shot, more from reflex than deliberation. The mass struck Nondi's OmniMech in the left leg this time, smashing enough armor to build a small tank.

Grinding his teeth in defiance, Rudolf Shakov divided his fire between the Nigh Hawk and whenever he could get a targeting lock, the Barghest.A laser brightened the armor over his left leg, carrying off a half-ton of his protective shell.

In general proportionate to mechanical damage values, to the point where they are worth talking about? Yes.

Going to need to see proof of all of this. You especially need to prove that the game data matches the universe and back up any calcs with fluff.

Every bit of this section follows from the above three sections logically. You need to dispute the above in order to successfully dispute these conclusions. For example, a gauss rifle penetrates something like 10 meters RHAe, while the Land Raider's equivalence to 300-365mm of "conventional steel armor" is not going to be too terribly far from equivalent thicknesses of RHA.

And this. Especially since Imperial Guard vehicles have withstood the same thing on their side armor.

Re-laying the gun took a vital second. In that time, the second tank fired again and hit the Wrath squarely. The impact was enough to lurch all sixty-two tonnes of armoured machine several metres sideways. But it didn't penetrate the twenty centimetre-thick armour skin.

(Please indicate the source of your quote when quoting.)
Lurching several meters sideways on a hill does not mean the attack is anywhere near the power of a gauss rifle. Try again.

Again with the proof needed.

Such is demonstrated by its superior effect vs BattleMechs (as opposed to modern tank weapons) and the near-parity of Battle Cannon with modern tank weapons.

Ignoring the bits about speed I commented on before: I have no clue where you got the idea it turned slowly. It can also go through far higher than meter deep mud since its got a great deal of torque among other features, such as legendary reliability.

Slow turning (relative to BattleMechs) is an inevitable consequence of having a top off-road speed of 21 kph. You're not turning treads quickly.

MAXIMUM SPEED: 34 kph on road, 24 kph off road
FORDING DEPTH: 1.9m
GROUND CLEARANCE: 0.45m

A BattleMech does not have a "fording depth" because it can be fully immersed. Please, evidence for maneuverability and terrain handling.

You are also incorrectly referencing the Conquerer part of IA: It was found that it had better accuracy on the move because it had a better stabilizer.

No, IA states that it is because of the reduced recoil:

The reduced recoil allows the vehicle to fire whilst on the move, making this Leman Russ variant more mobile when leading an assault.

The description of the arch-enemies knock off Leman Russ and how it relates to the Conqueror

LeGuin had it right. Examples of old, sub-Imperial standard technology, the Reavers lacked any auspex guidance or laser rangefinding. It was also clear they had no gyro stabilizers. Once the Conqueror guns were aimed they damn well stayed aim-locked thanks to inertial dampers, no matter how much bouncing and lurching the tank was experiencing. That meant the Conquerors could shoot and move simultaneously without any appreciable loss of target lock. The AT70s fired by eye and any movement or jarring required immediate aim revision.

All that quote does is establish that Conquerors do fire pretty well on the move.

Unfortunately its also a mech, with all the tremendous flaws that come along with that.

"All" meaning visibility and surface area. Unfortunately for WH40K, it faces the same problem that pre-BattleMech era tanks faced in the BT universe: They have magic-nano armor that seemingly violates physics.

Here's a hint: Its going to suck at everything you think its going to be good at. Oh I'm sure its probably done some of those in fluff, but in any realistic environment its boned.

In other words, you're sure it canonically, in the BT universe, is able to maneuver very well and deal with all sorts of obstacles, but are unwilling to suspend your disbelief regarding its maneuverability, because of pre-existing bias against giant humanoid war machines.

I'm sorry, but in order to deal plausibly with the BT universe, you're going to have to accept that BattleMechs actually can do the things they're described as doing in BT.

Requiring multiple hits to kill is actually standard for the Leman Russ.
A couple examples:

An AT70 lobbed a shell at the Wild One that tore away its sponson and part of its track skirt. Another hit the Demands With Menaces on the turret destroying its vox-mast, pintle mount and laser range-finder, and killing the assistant gunner with explosive spalling.

Wounded but not down, the Demands With Menaces plunged forward, laying its guns at the Reaver responsible. Corbec saw the top-hatch pop and the commander emerge, oblivious to the danger, to verify aim with a handscope now his range-finder was

Emboldened by the sight of a Leman Russ burning, the Brigand stirred forward again, and hammered a shot at the Access Denied that crushed its front bracings and fore-hull plating.

Both examples involving immediate damage impacting the combat effectiveness of the tank. Perhaps several hits to actually destroy is typical:

The 15th Tank company, consisting of a dozen Leman Russes was commanded by Captain Gerszon from his own Vanquisher... It wasn't long before he spotted enemy tanks to the south. Opening fire at long range he scored a hit, and a cloud of black smoke rose from his target.

One hit.

The enemy pressed forward, and armour-piercing tank shells were flying back and forth. One shell glanced off Gerszon's turret, another disabled the bow lascannon, leaving the gunner mortally wounded. Gerszon hit two more enemy tanks before being struck for a third time. This time a fuel tank ruptured.

Three hits.

One Land Raider was still moving, and its nearest lascannon swiveled towards them, a moment later a bolt of laser energy spat out of the dust, tearing through the turret of one of the Executioners.

Lascannon blast goes straight through the turret armor of an Executioner variant Leman Russ.

"Fire!" he called and Old Relentless roared its fury, wreathing Vorto in a pall of dissipating smoke so that he couldn't see if the hit was good or not. "And again!" he shouted... "One more for the Emperor!" he urged Braganzi on, watching as a stab of laser from a Destroyer punched through the side sponson of a Chaos Predator... Plasma spewed onto the sand, fusing it into glass, the shot obviously having breached the Land Raider's internal reactor.

Laser Destroyer goes through Predator side armor. Also, 2-3 shots from a Vanquisher to kill a Land Raider.

There's also a volume of examples in Honour Guard where concentrated fire is required to take down a Russ. That includes main gun and lascannon fire.

I eagerly await it.

That's because its own weapons are underwhelming for the weight class its in.

They may be underwhelming for its own weight class in BT, but they are quite overwhelming for its weight class in WH40K. Note that its armor is also not fantastic by BT standards. This is an older model Dragon, appropriate to compare to the stock model Leman Russ.

Clearly goes in the Leman Russ' favor if you know anything about ground combat.

Does it? As far as control goes, a BattleMech basically fights like one giant AI-assisted infantryman; as far as logistics goes, the dramatically reduced logistics requirements of BT forces is one of their big advantages.

[/quote]

[Imperial Overlord]

Lots of rampant dishonesty.

Let's start with the Caves of Ice example.

His voice was drowned out by the abrupt hiss of the melta as Jurgen fired into the wall, instantly flashing a dozen cubic meters of ice into steam, which condensed almost instantly in the subzero temperatures, filling the narrow passageway with mist.

Bolding mine. In order for the vapor from the instant vaporization to fill the corridor and then condense almost instantly, there have to be fairly violent wind effects. The very description mandates them otherwise the instantly created vapor isn't going to fill the corridor to instantly become mist is it? His objection can be discarded.

The melting the door example is also garbage. He assumes the lower limit is an upper limit. Imperial Guard armour is heat resistant.

Triple GJ multimeltas data can be found on Connor's Storm of Iron analysis IIRC.

His heat calculations are bunk. Extreme temperature rules only occur at extremely high ends and he uses a hundred ton 'mech, a monstrosity that is rare on the battlefield, for his heat calculations to try and derive the largest possible figure from game mechanics. Furthermore, in the fluff it clearly states that 'mechs are set with activity governors that are higher for low temperatures and lower for high temperature surroundings, which mean affect the length of a game term, not game mechanics. So he's using temperature selectively, using game mechanics, omitting evidence that suggests much lower numbers, and picking the largest possible mech to get the largest possible figures.

As for his energy weapons, he doesn not provide volume calculations for glass or the the energy required to melt glass, with the only one description even coming close to having a calculable area. This is a big window (which has a large surface area but puny volume) being melted by a PPC, the king of battle tech energy weapons.

His tree chopping argument is garbage because heavy machine guns are also being used. .50 cals will make a mess of trees, to say nothing of larger guns. A poor argument

He's trying to state a battle cannon is equivalent to a modern tank gun, but from the transfer of momentum issues alone we know it is a far more heinous weapon. Don't let him get away with that.

Conventional steel on Imperial tanks is the conventional steel of the 40th millenium, an era of vastly superior materials technology.

The GJ lascannon and the recharge.

1) Almost all infantry in 40K is either inhumanely tough, wears superior battle armour, or both. Table top is a simplified and many factions are nerfed in favor of playability. The lack of collateral damage lascannon isn't notable.

2) Tank mounted lascannons are mostly used against armoured vehicles or hardened targets, which is to say they won't be fired too often in a battle. Assuming they merely do 2 GJ is a big assumption. Frankly, the Inferno numbers are way too low to be consistent with their performance in universe anyway and are best considered a lower, not an upper, limit.

3) Time to find superior calculations. I'm sure we have some much higher end lascannon calcs.

The Dragon is a 60 ton heavy 'mech with good armour protection for its weight. Heavy 'mechs are a minority of the Inner Sphere's designs and using it as an example of a typical 'mech is disengenious. Light 'mechs make up 30% of the Inner Spheres 'mechs and medium 40%. Heavies a mere 20% and assaults 10%. It is a typical 'mech in it's era. . . . for a Draconis Combine veteran who serves in a state that has disproportionately fewer mediums than other Successor States. He's trying to sneak in a higher end vehicle as a "typical" example.

[Peptuck]

All that quote does is establish that Conquerors do fire pretty well on the move.

Lay this "Leman Russ can't shoot well on the move" bullshit to rest with this quote from Necropolis - specifically, The Founding Omnibus, Necropolis, pages 695-696:

Grizmund truely understood the power of armored vehicles, not just the physical power, but the psychological strength. If a tank was a threatening thing then a tank moving fast, and firing accurately and repeatedly, was a nightmare. The tank strike was his forte and he only admitted into the Narmenian cadre drivers who could handle thirty-plus tonnes of armor at speed, and gunners and layers who could fire fast, repeatedly, and make kills each time.

<snip paragraph describing the interior of Grizmund's Leman Russ tank>

Grizmund's driver, Wolsh, was one of the finest and he kept them moving even while firing.

<snip rest of paragraph descring Wolsh being awesome>

Operation Dercius threw forty fast-moving Narmenian heavy tanks down through fg/567 and cut through the neck of the Zoican column spread. Grizmund's forces had killed or crippled seventy-two enemy vehicles by the time they doubled back, swinging around without breaking speed to re-engage the shattered Zoican armor from the other side.

Now came the part that required true skill, a maneuver that Grizmund has dubbed "the Scissors." As his tanks came around to re-engage, another fifty under Brigadier Nachin charged the enemy from the other side, from the direction of Grizmund's original strike. A textbook disaster in the hands of less able commanders, but at the turn, Grizmund's forces had begun to send identifying vox beacons to distinguish them fromt he enemy, and Nachin's forces did the same. The rule was that anything caught between their charges that didn't broadcast the correct beacon was a target. Grizmund had used this tactic nine times and had never lost a tank to his own fire.

That fine record was maintained at Vervunhive. Like the jaws of some vast beast, the Narmenian aror charges tore in toward each other, crushing everything between them. Grizmund and Nachin's speeding tanks passed through each other's ranks, some vehicles missing others at full speed by a hull's span.

That entire maneuver is done with standard-pattern Leman Russ tanks, and would have been impossible if the Russ couldn't fire accurately while on the move. The Conquerer pattern fires better than the standard pattern Russ, but the standard pattern Russ is accurate enough to allow for some seriously wicked on-the-move combat.

[PainRack]

What cut off her words was a bolt of blue fire hitting the ground in front of the Aung house, the blue fire momentarily blanking Cassie's vision. Through great maroon clouds of afterimage, she saw the big front window shimmer and simple melt away, felt a rush of heat on her face like the hot breath of air when she squatted too near while her mother slid her baking in and out of the oven... In the Aung yard, men were on fire.... The burning men had fallen to the ground. The whole Aung house was ablaze with flames.

PPC hit house, set it on fire. How did he dervive tens of GJ from this again?

The single laser he fired missed low, melting a huge glistening
patch of sand into glass before it shattered.

Limited information on "huge" and depth.
While such information is useful as a relative gauge, they're worthless for accurate technical analysis. If so, LordChaos, Steve and the original Btecher gang, much less Nephtys and the current clique would had used them long ago.

Medium laser (a few GJ required to match “daisy cutter” through inefficient thermal weapon; incident may be inspired by game-mechanical ability to clear a 15m radius area of wooded terrain using a medium laser in one 10 second turn.)

Yeah. Via FIRE. The clearing rules explictly mention setting woods on fire. The alternate is terrain clearence with regards to buildings, although I can't recall whether hill clearing is a house rule I had subjected on me or a level 3 equivalent.

A standard gauss rifle is a 100mm 125kg caliber hypersonic solid slug of some ferromagnetic material with a kinetic energy of 720-1000 megajoules, and enough momentum to cause a BattleMech to skid, plow, or lurch multiple meters.

All accurate........ Save for the last bit.

Note the Compendium refers to any conventional weapon. The highest velocity conventional discarding-sabot rounds are getting quite close to 2 km/s now, and in spite of any loss in technology, at least Mach 5 remains possible for conventional guns in the BT era. Velocity of these rounds is therefore 3400-4000 m/s. This explains the substantial recoil.

And what does the sniper rifle has to do with the gauss rifle? Can't he even dig up Patrick Battletech Archive, in which he stored the article on the gauss rifle hypersonic speeds of Mach 5?

The surface area of a 1.7m human is roughly 2 m^2. A 12m BattleMech therefore has roughly 100 square meters of surface area. 10 tons of standard BT armor, distributed in an even layer, gives approximately 15 points per hit location. Accordingly, 10 g/cm^2 is at or near the thickness required to stop a Gauss round (within 10%, accounting for rounding effects).

So..... why isn't he honest enough to then use the inverse? How such armour is ineffective at stopping falling damage? That a mech can't even go PRONE, a deliberate action without suffering damage?

Third, see above section regarding gauss rifles. By any measure, the gauss rifle far exceeds modern tank AP rounds; by density of kinetic energy, the dominant factor for high-velocity penetrators, should penetrate close to 10m RHAe.

Hmmm..... Methinks I should look up the tear-drop shape of the gauss rifle round again before someone requotes Patrick article regarding the melon shape. Something which is actually the majority of descriptions used .....

A BattleMech is comprised of a number of elements with varying room-temperature capacities - boron nitride (0.6-0.8 J/gK), glasses (0.5-0.9 J/gK), aluminum (0.9 J/gK), steel (0.5 J/gK), assorted plastics, synthetic fibers, and rubbers (0.9-4 J/gK), titanium (0.5 J/gK), nanostructured carbon (0.7-0.9 J/gK), various liquid coolants (2-5 J/gK), air (1 J/gK). Overall, we expect the heat capacity to be fairly close to 1 J/gK at normal operating temperatures.

Except that you have NO evidence whatsoever that the temperature monitoring is ACTUALLY the mech itself. Indeed, it would be absurd for the heatscale to be measuring the entire battlemech heat. Furthermore, since we DO know that the Demolisher Autocannons, which discharge noxious gas into the crew quarters doesn't insta kill them on sight, or that mechwarriors cockpits only rise into the 40s of degrees at best, that a 10 degree rise in ambient temperature is equivalent to a 1 degree rise in heat scale, there is simply nothing to suggest that the heat scale translates to an actual heat reading of the entire mech. If so, someone would PLEASE explain how a 300 degree heat point somehow only translates to a mere 40 degree heat climate in the cockpit, or the PPC discharge on the Black Knight PPC.

There is also the harsh environment rule, dictating 1 heat point per ten degrees Celsius. Apply to a 100 ton BattleMech, which will retain the greatest portion of its weapons waste heat: 10K/HP*1J/gK*100,000,000g = 1,000,000,000J/HP.

An ambient temperature of 1 heat point per 10 degrees. Nowhere does it state that its referring to the entire mech, just its effects on the HEAT SCALE.
Or does he forget how this applies to light mechs as well?

Since Gauss rounds are at least twice as fast, they have four times the kinetic energy per unit mass - and yet for the total ammunition weight, including propellant, they only do 1.2 times as much damage. Ergo, the autocannon rounds are not primarily kinetic weapons.

LC and Gunhead and Consequences have more than adequately discussed the failings of the autocannon as a mech weapon. Suffice to say, using tonnage ,the HE content is pitiful. Any effectiveness must be more along the lines of the pecularities of Mech armour than on explosive power.

They missed a fast lance of Scarabus designs that bolted for the backside at better than one hundred kilometers per hour. Only two survived to take a swing at Victor's Daishi. One missed. The other carved away a half ton of armor from Prometheus's arm.

I laugh to see how he thinks that meelee combat actually PROVES his point about KE.

For example, a gauss rifle penetrates something like 10 meters RHAe, while the Land Raider's equivalence to 300-365mm of "conventional steel armor" is not going to be too terribly far from equivalent thicknesses of RHA.

The Test of Vengenance tarmac quote doesn't translate well.

(Please indicate the source of your quote when quoting.)
Lurching several meters sideways on a hill does not mean the attack is anywhere near the power of a gauss rifle. Try again.

Because other than the Warhammer PPC attack, you don't have an equivalent?

A BattleMech does not have a "fording depth" because it can be fully immersed. Please, evidence for maneuverability and terrain handling.

Errr..............................................
Does he understand the concept of a fording depth and how this applies to Btech?

Does it? As far as control goes, a BattleMech basically fights like one giant AI-assisted infantryman; as far as logistics goes, the dramatically reduced logistics requirements of BT forces is one of their big advantages.

ROFLOL.
I wish Lord Chaos was here. Sure, Btech logistic is reduced compared to their vehicle forces, but suggesting they have a dramatically reduced requirement?
Even in the fluff, ignoring reality, has he even READ about the Succession Wars? Hell, the Flashman TRO explictly mentions how logistics and ammo prolonged the wars because of the need for resupply. And it isn't unusual. Mech forces have no more than minutes of ammunition supply.
And this is ignoring how their force setup dramatically complicates ammunition resupply. While a LRM 20 rack would suit any other ammunition rack(or at least, if you aren't a Clanner),weapons and spare parts do NOT. The game has been attemptiong to rationalise the spare parts issue by saying that maintenance can be done via ample "simple" components, but such an approach is simply absurd in reality.

The Dragon is a 60 ton heavy 'mech with good armour protection for its weight. Heavy 'mechs are a minority of the Inner Sphere's designs and using it as an example of a typical 'mech is disengenious. Light 'mechs make up 30% of the Inner Spheres 'mechs and medium 40%. Heavies a mere 20% and assaults 10%. It is a typical 'mech in it's era. . . . for a Draconis Combine veteran who serves in a state that has disproportionately fewer mediums than other Successor States. He's trying to sneak in a higher end vehicle as a "typical" example.

I thought the handbook reverses the light and med numbers? 40% and 30%?

[Imperial Overlord]

I thought the handbook reverses the light and med numbers? 40% and 30%?

Which of the million BTech handbooks are you referring to? IS numbers are (baseline) 30% light, 40% medium, 20% heavy, 10% assault with various Houses having different mixes like the Liao's being light, the Lyrans being heavy, and the Dracs using more lights and heavies and fewer mediums.

[Azazal]

totally minor nit-pick, tell him to spell my name right damnit

[Connor MacLeod]

I was told he's done another of his 40K 'analysis' threds over on his forum where he goes and (basically) accuses the 40Kers (and me specifically by name) of overinflating the numbers again and basically ignoring the "lower" values. He mentions me by name and that he's been "reading" through my old analysis threads - I like how he unilaterally declares my work shit and then goes and borrows that same work for his own purposes, btw - and how alot of them seem to be based on "arbitrary" assumptions.

Of course, this is the same guy who has been basically lying and misdirecting in his BTech analysis. The bit about the "laser melting an unquantified bit of sand" CERTAINLY isn't arbitrary, not at all!

[PainRack]

I thought the handbook reverses the light and med numbers? 40% and 30%?

Which of the million BTech handbooks are you referring to? IS numbers are (baseline) 30% light, 40% medium, 20% heavy, 10% assault with various Houses having different mixes like the Liao's being light, the Lyrans being heavy, and the Dracs using more lights and heavies and fewer mediums.

Oops. I was referring to the Mercenary Handbook. Insofar as I know, the later handbooks don't refer to mech numbers by type.

[Imperial Overlord]

Oops. I was referring to the Mercenary Handbook. Insofar as I know, the later handbooks don't refer to mech numbers by type.

I'm vary sure its 30% Light 40% Med 20% Heavy !0% Assault, but I don't have the Mercenary's Handbook around so I can't quote it for proof.

I played a lot of Mechwarrior in high school and some in university. Certain things stuck like glue.

[DrStrangelove]

Meh ,he wants to use game mechanics? time to mention the 1km max effective range, and small lasers having the same effect as heavy machine guns. and thus large lasers and gauss rifles only being 6-8x more powerful than a HMG.

[PainRack]

Oops. I was referring to the Mercenary Handbook. Insofar as I know, the later handbooks don't refer to mech numbers by type.

I'm vary sure its 30% Light 40% Med 20% Heavy !0% Assault, but I don't have the Mercenary's Handbook around so I can't quote it for proof.

I played a lot of Mechwarrior in high school and some in university. Certain things stuck like glue.

Hmmm..... ok. I go search around. I think I downloaded it and have it on cd somewhere.

The DC is an oddity though as you point out. Their lack of medium mechs was so significant that every medium "classic" they had were Comstar donated mechs. If anything, the typical mech for the DC should had been the Panther and Jenner based on numbers.

[Imperial Overlord]

Indeed, that's why I called his choice of a Dragon dishonest. Latter on they produce more mediums, but as a nation they still favor light and heavy designs over mediums. It's not that unusual. The Capellans use lighter 'mechs than everyone else because of the comparatively sad shape they are in and the Lyrans love the heavies.

As for battle armour, it doesn't help his case if he wants to bring it up. Big bad need 11 points of BTech damage to kill Elementals have been dispatched by guys with vibrokatanas and infantry with assault rifles and armour piercing ammo (although in that case he hit a weak spot) [third book of the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, Elemental assault on a Drac command bunker]. Elementals are far too easily killed to support double digit gigajoule PPCs (and I love PPCs).

[PainRack]

Indeed, that's why I called his choice of a Dragon dishonest. Latter on they produce more mediums, but as a nation they still favor light and heavy designs over mediums. It's not that unusual. The Capellans use lighter 'mechs than everyone else because of the comparatively sad shape they are in and the Lyrans love the heavies.

Hmmm...... Not exactly. While the Cappellan military is high on the light side in the begining, that's due to the majority of their mechs being light mechs like the wasp/stinger or even commandoes. Their "classics" are certainly mediums and heavies such as the Jagermech. The problem is, their classics suck big time in terms of armour, with only the Vindicator being anything useful.

As for battle armour, it doesn't help his case if he wants to bring it up. Big bad need 11 points of BTech damage to kill Elementals have been dispatched by guys with vibrokatanas and infantry with assault rifles and armour piercing ammo (although in that case he hit a weak spot) [third book of the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, Elemental assault on a Drac command bunker]. Elementals are far too easily killed to support double digit gigajoule PPCs (and I love PPCs).

It gets even weaker. There's a standard depiction of a rifle/flamer/laser and even SRM platoon in battletroops. Its actually quite light in terms of heavy weapons, disproving the battletechnology contention that rifle platoons are actually infantry platoons with gyrojet rifles, backed up with VLAWs and POLs. Battletroops simply depict the majority of them being assault rifles with presumably LAWs and VLAW as support. This means that even against a modern day infantry platoon, elementals are vulnerable. Something that a Space Marine isn't, thanks to his reflexes, speed and armour.

Even his example that PPCs can kill multiple people, thus= double digit gigajoule is disproved by the fact that this isn't in the rules. While standard Citytech does use the translate dmg=people killed, battletroops, mechwarrior, solaris all discard this and at best, the level 3 rules intergration allows for PPCs and Lasers to "walk" over multiple targets, killing 3 soldiers or so depending on Dice roll.

[Imperial Overlord]

Indeed, that's why I called his choice of a Dragon dishonest. Latter on they produce more mediums, but as a nation they still favor light and heavy designs over mediums. It's not that unusual. The Capellans use lighter 'mechs than everyone else because of the comparatively sad shape they are in and the Lyrans love the heavies.

Hmmm...... Not exactly. While the Cappellan military is high on the light side in the begining, that's due to the majority of their mechs being light mechs like the wasp/stinger or even commandoes.

What the fuck are you trying to say?

Their "classics" are certainly mediums and heavies such as the Jagermech. The problem is, their classics suck big time in terms of armour, with only the Vindicator being anything useful.

What you call their "classics" are specific models common to their military. That the Vindicator is a medium mech widely used in Capellan space doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they have fewer heavy and assault 'mechs than other Successor States just as the fact that the Lyrans produce the Commando and the Wolfhound doesn't prove anything about how heavy their 'mech forces are.

The Capellans don't even have the facilities to build assault 'mechs of their own until after the Clan invasion. The Jagermech (which I think of as Panther bait), by the way, is most widely used by the Federated Suns and the Commando is a Lyran design they most certainly do not have in any significant numbers. As for armour protection, the Capellans have plenty of designs with decent armour protection for their weight although the Raven isn't one of them.

[harbringer]

What painRack was trying to say I think is this .....

What is referred to as the unseen or classics are simply the robotech based designs that each house was assigned as being able to produce at the darkest hours of the succession wars. so the wolverine warhammer stinger wasp etc. As the war had gone on so long they are common to everyone but new ones were only produced in small numbers by those factions. The capellans had catapults and so on but used lots of light stuff simply as they could produce it cheaper than a catapult ... they were a quantity over quality approach.

They still had heavies and assault mechs though.

[Vendetta]

What is referred to as the unseen or classics are simply the robotech based designs that each house was assigned as being able to produce at the darkest hours of the succession wars.

They weren't "Robotech Based", they were actual Destroid designs licensed from Big West, makers of Macross. Due to the general lawsuit snarl that surrounded Macross for decades, they are now unusable, so have had to have dust sheets over them for canon purposes.

[Imperial Overlord]

What painRack was trying to say I think is this .....

What is referred to as the unseen or classics are simply the robotech based designs that each house was assigned as being able to produce at the darkest hours of the succession wars. so the wolverine warhammer stinger wasp etc. As the war had gone on so long they are common to everyone but new ones were only produced in small numbers by those factions. The capellans had catapults and so on but used lots of light stuff simply as they could produce it cheaper than a catapult ... they were a quantity over quality approach.

They still had heavies and assault mechs though.

Except your wrong. Painrack can't possibly mean that because he calls the Vindicator and Jagermechs "classics" and they aren't part of the Unseen. The Capellans were unable to produce assault 'mechs and have limited facilities capable of heavy 'mech production until after the tech transfers and rebuilding that occurred during the Clan invasion and their alliance with House Marik. The Capellans don't produce light 'mechs because they're cheap, they produce light and medium 'mechs because that's mostly what their ravaged industrial base can produce. The Unseen were common designs, but they weren't produced by every house. House Kurita, for example, produced almost none of them in 3025, although it had some Unseen in its ranks.

[PainRack]

What the fuck are you trying to say?

Rereads thread............
Err..... Just cancel my sentences please? I think I'm too shagged from work and my brain wires just got crossed as I linger on this forum waiting for the next update to armaggadeon.

As for the commando, in the first Cappellan Handbook, there's an Cappellan regiment in which the majority of the mechs were stated to be commandoes.

My original point was supposed to be about the Cappellans using lighter mechs than anyone else due to their comparatively sad shape. Its not. From the begining, the majority of their mech regiments already comprised of more lighter designs such as the wasp and stinger. Their mech production after the war rested heavily on medium and heavy designs such as the Jagermech and Vindicators, the classics. So..... the sad shape of the Cappellans actually forced them to rely on mech models that was heavier than light designs. As for their light designs, that was due more to their tactics and attempt to intergrate aerospace forces and how that collapsed at the Great Lee Shoot(Errr...... if my memory serves).

[Imperial Overlord]

Except that's wrong. The Capellans were forced to rely on light and medium designs because of the sad shape of their industrial facilities, whatever the state of their regiments before the start of the Succession Wars. Check the production figures in House Liao. The Capellans produce few heavies and no assaults and have suffered heavy attrition from being ground down and losing half their territory to Houses Marik and Davion. That's why the development of the Cataphract was a big deal. It was a heavy design that could slug it out with the big boys and be produced by their industrial base.

[The Dark]

What is referred to as the unseen or classics are simply the robotech based designs that each house was assigned as being able to produce at the darkest hours of the succession wars.

They weren't "Robotech Based", they were actual Destroid designs licensed from Big West, makers of Macross. Due to the general lawsuit snarl that surrounded Macross for decades, they are now unusable, so have had to have dust sheets over them for canon purposes.

The Unseen are back in canon as of this year (although without artwork). They also weren't just from Macross - some were from Crusher Joe, and others from Fang of the Sun: Dougram. Oddly enough, three aerospace fighters and a dropship were also ripped from anime, but didn't become Unseen (Corsair, Sparrowhawk, Samurai, and Leopard).

Meh ,he wants to use game mechanics? time to mention the 1km max effective range, and small lasers having the same effect as heavy machine guns. and thus large lasers and gauss rifles only being 6-8x more powerful than a HMG.

I don't want to start the whole argument again, but there is an old issue of BattleTechnology that explains the range limitations (and gives longer ranges with greatly reduced accuracy and power) and gives MJ equivalents for energy weapons - I'll see if I can find it for Thanatos' use. Since it was a FASA in-universe publication, it should be canon, and it presents the data both in "real-world" numbers and game terms.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Unseen have always been canon, they just couldn't use the old artwork. They got around that a while back with Project Phoenix, 3060 variants with slightly different art.

And the Battletechnology numbers are brutal. Single and low double digit megajoules for the 'mech mounted energy weapons. Not exactly stuff you want to trot out to prove the strength of the franchise.

[Darmalus]

Is there anywhere I can get a quick rundown of how powerful modern weapons are, for the sake of comparison? It's nice to see hard numbers for comparisons between the 2 universes, but that doesn't help me figure out if that melta Jurgen is so fond of is more or less powerful than a modern tank cannon. Mostly I'm trying to wrap my head around how things scale up from familiar touchstones.

[Vendetta]

The Unseen are back in canon as of this year (although without artwork). They also weren't just from Macross - some were from Crusher Joe, and others from Fang of the Sun: Dougram. Oddly enough, three aerospace fighters and a dropship were also ripped from anime, but didn't become Unseen (Corsair, Sparrowhawk, Samurai, and Leopard).

Who Owns What in Macross is starting to untangle itself now. The original judgement against FASA may now be obsolete because the license Harmony Gold were operating under when they sued them has been ruled invalid, because Tatsunoko shouldn't have licensed all the things they did (Turns out they only had international distribution rights to the original animation, not derivative products, but they licensed derivative products to HG).

Of course, in the time since they went looking for mecha designs to license and now, FASA managed to get a lot more designs of it's own, as the only reason they originally sought out those licenses was because they needed more stuff in a short period of time and didn't have a big enough design department to create them.