Storm Troopers: clones are not?

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-08-08 08:40pm

Yeah, Stravo has a point in AOTC at Kamino the Clonetroopers are conserving to other Troopers in the Mess Hall, I think I need to see it again.

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2002-08-08 11:48pm

The main problem I have with such an argument is the fact that the officers are not clones. Officers are often times former stormtroopers who were promoted. You notice that all officers are different from one another. Also, the Death Star troopers are not clones. Why would he make the stormtroopers clones yet not Death Star troopers?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-08 11:55pm

Talon Karrde wrote:The main problem I have with such an argument is the fact that the officers are not clones. Officers are often times former stormtroopers who were promoted. You notice that all officers are different from one another. Also, the Death Star troopers are not clones. Why would he make the stormtroopers clones yet not Death Star troopers?

WHERE does it say that officers are former stormtroopers????

Stormtroopers are quartered and trained away from the rest of the military. They are their own individual branch that does not inetract with the military. Ofiicers come form this place called the IMPERAIL ACADEMY mentioned in ANH. See link I posted somewhere above from the OFFICIAL site. The problem with the nay sayers is that their assumptions are based off of the EU. GL just KILLED a string of ideas and theories floating around the EU about stormtroopers with AOTC AND his own statements and like Borg severed from the Collective they are stumbling around unsure.

I honestly don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. I don't treat the EU as gospel as obviously GL doesn't either. Its his story and his baby. He can declare tomorrow that the EU is totally false and there's nothing that can be said about it.

Its too bad people don't like the idea but that's GL's idea and so therefore now CANON

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2002-08-09 12:03am

Stravo, while some of our opinions may differ, you don't have to get over everyone's back. AOTC proved nothing about stormtroopers. I believe for some reason those comments made by Lucas are different than he intended. They don't seem right. (note this is a hunch, you don't have to try and crucify me for this comment Stravo)

Plus, stormtroopers go through the Academy on Carida. Why you choose to ignore this yet choose to see the fact in officers being trained at the Academy I don't know.

Also, we haven't seen a connection what-so-ever in the the 5 Episodes of George Lucas' CANON movies yet (which you claim to love so dearly) so I have no intention believe stormtroopers are clones. (Not until I see CANON proof)

Also, please explain to me why Death Star troopers were not clones if stormtroopers are?? Could you please tell me this, you didn't answer or see this in my last post.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-09 12:24am

Talon Karrde wrote:Stravo, while some of our opinions may differ, you don't have to get over everyone's back. AOTC proved nothing about stormtroopers. I believe for some reason those comments made by Lucas are different than he intended. They don't seem right. (note this is a hunch, you don't have to try and crucify me for this comment Stravo)

Plus, stormtroopers go through the Academy on Carida. Why you choose to ignore this yet choose to see the fact in officers being trained at the Academy I don't know.

Also, we haven't seen a connection what-so-ever in the the 5 Episodes of George Lucas' CANON movies yet (which you claim to love so dearly) so I have no intention believe stormtroopers are clones. (Not until I see CANON proof)

Also, please explain to me why Death Star troopers were not clones if stormtroopers are?? Could you please tell me this, you didn't answer or see this in my last post.

BECAUSE STORMTROOPERS ARE THEIR OWN BRANCH IN THE MILITARY. That's the short answer. A stormtrooper is NOT a death star trooper, an officer, a swabbie, an engineer...he is a Stormtrooper.

I apologize to you if the tone is bothering you, I just get frustrated by people that refuse to see other possibilities or cling to the ideas that OTHER people have put forth in absence of a definitive answer form the creator UNTIL THE CREATOR speaks. Once GL speaks thats it, its canon and WHATEVER the EU says goes down the toilet WHETHER people think its a better idea in the EU or not. I am very admantly opposed to seeing an author's vision hijacked by other people and then when the author speaks out everyone starts saying "Well, he didn't really mean that." COME ON.

If B&B came out and said that starfleet is made up of 600 starships, and a Trekkie was on this board saying that well...B&B don't know what they're saying the rest of you would PUMMELL him mercilessly.

Once again, I have to point to the very WORDS of GL:

http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/010432.html

And I will put the words out here:

Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones. Exactly what that relationship was I hadn't really established yet. I knew Boba was a clone, but I didn't know how all of that fit together. I knew that the clones were made out of a bounty hunter, and when I got to this story

I see no ambiguity.

Once again I apologize if this seems harsh but this is clear as day to me and if I'm wrong, if GL says tomorrow, "you know stromtroopers are not clones" I will be the FIRST to say,"I'm sorry guys!" Until then I have GL's word against the EU and unless I misread the rules on canon, GL trumps ALL

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2002-08-09 12:33am

I have no problem believing some stormtroopers are clones. However, I also believe that many are trained personel. These are my personal opinions. I'll babble on later tommorow or something, now I must go to bed

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-09 12:35am

Hey Talon, nothing personal or vindictive dude, you're right this is all about personal opinions and for some damned reason this debate gets my goat I have NO clue why....get some rest

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2002-08-09 12:44am

Thanks Stravo

I've enjoyed this debate thoroughly, and I really hope that in Episode III Lucas will show us difinitive proof somehow. I've always had a problem believing this but the facts and interview you bring up are very good evidence that your theory could easily be correct. Good night to you

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-08-09 08:53am

The old article speaks for itself, but practicality tells me that they couldn't ALL have been clones, since cloning one human costs at least $200,000 US today, thus making the stormtrooper corps inanely expensive to run.

The "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper" comment could refer to a minimum height requirement for stormtroopers - elite troops (Waffen-SS) in Das Dritte Reich (Third Realm, as Hitler called his state) were required to be at least 183cm tall. (This was one of the less weird requirements, new recruits were also scrapped if they didn't have perfect teeth or if they couldn't trace back their German ancestry to the 17th century!!)

une · Post by **une** » 2002-08-09 10:02am

The old article speaks for itself, but practicality tells me that they couldn't ALL have been clones, since cloning one human costs at least $200,000 US today, thus making the stormtrooper corps inanely expensive to run.

You can't look at the pricve of something in the real world, and then say that it transfers into the Star Wars galaxy. In the Star Wars galaxy you can sell an old landspeeder and get enough money to by a hyperdrive capable star ship. In real life I couldn't sell my car and use the money to buy the space shuttle.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-09 11:14am

If GL says it, thats the end of it guys.

Also; notice that in the one incident when a stormtrooper is addressed- in ANH- there is no name. Just TK-421. Granted its flimsy (like the officers are gonna know the name of some stormie- if they had names that is), but it is there.

We have Temura Morrison doing the voiceovers for the OT (undoubtedly for GL touching the OT again)- is this confirmed though?

One thing that I don't understand though, is that two stormies in ANH are talking about speeders IIRC while Kenobi takes down the tractor beam- do clones give a crap about that stuff? what do they do for fun?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-08-11 02:51am

une wrote:You can't look at the pricve of something in the real world, and then say that it transfers into the Star Wars galaxy. In the Star Wars galaxy you can sell an old landspeeder and get enough money to by a hyperdrive capable star ship. In real life I couldn't sell my car and use the money to buy the space shuttle.

Erm... a landspeeder is much more advanced than a car. For example, it is probably propelled by expensive turbine engines, (General Motors and the Chrysler Corporation actually experimented with this, but it never became more than prototypes) and it also has repulsorlifts. Machinery that can negate gravitic or electromagnetic forces must be somewhat more expensive than a car's suspension systems.

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2002-08-11 01:13pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
une wrote:You can't look at the pricve of something in the real world, and then say that it transfers into the Star Wars galaxy. In the Star Wars galaxy you can sell an old landspeeder and get enough money to by a hyperdrive capable star ship. In real life I couldn't sell my car and use the money to buy the space shuttle.
Erm... a landspeeder is much more advanced than a car. For example, it is probably propelled by expensive turbine engines, (General Motors and the Chrysler Corporation actually experimented with this, but it never became more than prototypes) and it also has repulsorlifts. Machinery that can negate gravitic or electromagnetic forces must be somewhat more expensive than a car's suspension systems.

Simon, your quote makes sense relating to our world. But in the Star Wars unvierse, speeders are common. They are like cars to us. You can't compare pricing between the two because of technology.

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2002-08-13 12:04pm

Hmmm...... here's something interesting from Star Wars Insider magazine. On pg 19 of the October edition it says,

Crucial Connection
"In terms of content," PabloHelman notes, "this is the only shot in the film that connects the clones to the clone troopers." The stromtroopers of the classic trilogy had been mistaken for robots by some viewers; here we see unequivocally that the clone troopers are humand soldiers inside their inhuman armor, as we watch the men put on their helmets. "this is a key conent point," Helman says, "George wanted to make a big deal out of this because of what it establishes." As susual, Lucas tells his story visually, and this striking shot quickly and effectively conveys its point.

The point it's referring to is a picture of the Quartermaster Station on Kamino as seen in Episode II. My question, what is it's point?? Are they "implying" that clonetroopers are also stormtroopers. They are still not being clear here.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-08-15 06:57am

Stravo wrote:The problem with the nay sayers is that their assumptions are based off of the EU. GL just KILLED a string of ideas and theories floating around the EU about stormtroopers with AOTC AND his own statements and like Borg severed from the Collective they are stumbling around unsure.

GL did not kill any ideas that I know of.
And always, the solution wich keeps all the evidence together is the one that i by default, superior.

So clonies where turned into stormies, but other evidence also says that cloning was banned and forgotten almost, and so maybe they started using recruits.
I honestly don't see your problem with this.

Or maybe the clone chambers found where unlike the ones used for stormies all along, they where some new special clone chamber used at the end of the war that palpy took and hid away, because we know it took quite long to make a single clone and the clones did not look alike either, these clones where created very fast and need not be trained, maybe that was what so special here, batches of thousands and thousands of 100% identical clones with flash imprinted memories ready in 2-3 weeks.

I honestly don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. I don't treat the EU as gospel as obviously GL doesn't either. Its his story and his baby. He can declare tomorrow that the EU is totally false and there's nothing that can be said about it.

But he won't, because he do care about it, lots of stuff in the prequels is gotten from the EU, the whole idea on how Palpatine rose to power I believe was first seen in EU materiel, and Coruscant and other stuff.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-15 07:33am

Temura Morrison himself has said that GL wants him to do / has had him do voiceovers for the stormies in the OT.

If this is true, all other debate is MEANINGLESS. Stormies are undoubtedly clones, EU be damned

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-15 10:50am

GL did not kill any ideas that I know of.
And always, the solution wich keeps all the evidence together is the one that i by default, superior.

Let's be clear, I am not saying that the EU is worthless or incorrect I AM saying that when GL says something and it flies in the face of EU, EU loses, I don't care how many fans love the EU idea better, because in the end, this is GL's story. If he wants to say Stormtroopers are flying monkeys, the guess what...They're flying monkeys. He is god, the EU writers are like bible scholars trying to decipher the word of god, but when god speaks...there is no higher authority.

There is NOTHING superior to GL's word. I think that's pretty clear.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-08-15 03:31pm

Stravo wrote:Let's be clear, I am not saying that the EU is worthless or incorrect I AM saying that when GL says something and it flies in the face of EU, EU loses, I don't care how many fans love the EU idea better, because in the end, this is GL's story. If he wants to say Stormtroopers are flying monkeys, the guess what...They're flying monkeys. He is god, the EU writers are like bible scholars trying to decipher the word of god, but when god speaks...there is no higher authority.

But what you fail to recognize here is that you are just like us, interprepting "God's" word in another way than we do, "God" did not state anything outright, hence we are both assuming here what he meant, your explanation is no better than ours in that light alone, since our "God" wasn't 100% clear on the matter, but factor in the rest of the evidence our explanation stands in better.

Your move "messiah"

There is NOTHING superior to GL's word. I think that's pretty clear.

Actually, I believe that the policy of Lucasfilm and what the company decide might be higher than what he personally says.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-15 04:05pm

Actually, I believe that the policy of Lucasfilm and what the company decide might be higher than what he personally says.

I find that statement shocking. As an author I would be PISSED if some pisants who had absolutely nothing to do with my story were suddenly deciding to accept some of the things I said were "really true" for canon purposes.

Yeah, we may all be interpretting but when someone says "Stormtroopers are clones." I don't see much wriggle room. Besides, Why are so many people resitant to this idea?? I think GL has plenty of basis to say that, and if in the super special edition (or as I prefer to call it, the quest for yet more money) he has the same actor dub over the voices of the stromtroopers AND he says in an interview "Storm troopers are clones." what does that tell you...HOW MUCH more eveidence is needed to say" Hmm...this is GL's vision."

WHAT is the big deal?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-15 04:14pm

As stated before, [VaderVoice]there is no conflict.[/VaderVoice]

The cloning facilities used by the Kamino produced slightly accelerated humans, that were genetically identical. They were taught, trained, and prepared for ten years, then shipped to fight.

The Spaarti Cylinders used by Palpatine and Thrawn produced full grown humans in weeks, genetically identical and Force-corrupting due to their great maturation speed. They learn by having information directly burnt into their brain, and can fight fresh from the cylinder.

They clearly are different technologies. The cloning facilities of Carida and wherever else can churn out cheap troops, but they take time. With the loss of Palpatine and many worlds, the Empire would need a rapid insertion of many, many troops, right now, so those slow methods would be unable to take up the slack.

There. Thrawn Trilogy and GL's statements meshed seamlessly.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-15 04:18pm

SirNitram wrote:As stated before, [VaderVoice]there is no conflict.[/VaderVoice]

The cloning facilities used by the Kamino produced slightly accelerated humans, that were genetically identical. They were taught, trained, and prepared for ten years, then shipped to fight.

The Spaarti Cylinders used by Palpatine and Thrawn produced full grown humans in weeks, genetically identical and Force-corrupting due to their great maturation speed. They learn by having information directly burnt into their brain, and can fight fresh from the cylinder.

They clearly are different technologies. The cloning facilities of Carida and wherever else can churn out cheap troops, but they take time. With the loss of Palpatine and many worlds, the Empire would need a rapid insertion of many, many troops, right now, so those slow methods would be unable to take up the slack.

There. Thrawn Trilogy and GL's statements meshed seamlessly.

I COMPLETELY agree Sir Nitram but what many people are arguing is that Stormtroopers are NOT clones, that Stormtroopers are some weird amalgam of clones and recruits. All I am saying is that GL says otherwise.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-15 04:42pm

Hey! SirNitram! You really got something going there! I would of never thought of that. Then let it be known through out the land, that SirNitram has brought truth (of how stormies equal clones), where others brought lies (HDS,

, no offense....BRINGER OF SATAN!). So there you have it, stormies=clones, and it makes sense too. Wow.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-15 04:47pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Hey! SirNitram! You really got something going there! I would of never thought of that. Then let it be known through out the land, that SirNitram has brought truth (of how stormies equal clones), where others brought lies (HDS, , no offense....BRINGER OF SATAN!). So there you have it, stormies=clones, and it makes sense too. Wow.

May Bob the Small God forever bless your ankles for actually seeing what I'm saying.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-08-15 04:51pm

Stravo wrote:I find that statement shocking. As an author I would be PISSED if some pisants who had absolutely nothing to do with my story were suddenly deciding to accept some of the things I said were "really true" for canon purposes.

Well thats how it is, SW is not just owned by lots of big nasty men who sit in dark rooms and smoke cigars, staring at GL saying "we want more money, make some prequels".

Stravo wrote:Yeah, we may all be interpretting but when someone says "Stormtroopers are clones." I don't see much wriggle room. Besides, Why are so many people resitant to this idea??

We're not, we're just incorporating all the facts, so stormies are clones, thats great, but after the Emperor died, no one knew stormies where clones, infact by then they had stated that stormies where in very rare nowadays, possibly it is that Palpatine used the secret cloning facilities to make stormies, utterly loyal troops, in secret, and when he died, noone else, not even Thrawn knew about the stormies true origins and without replenishments, it would explain why storm troopers where in such short supply in the Thrawn triology and the Emperor had all the time been secretly cloning his stormies and noone knew it.

This is supported by:
=======================
Imperial Sourcebook:
Imperial command assigns stormtroopers wherever they are needed to crush resistance and neutralize opposition to the will of the Emperor. They are totally loyal and cannot be bribed, seduced or blackmailed into betraying the New Order. They live in a totally disciplined militaristic world where obedience is paramount and the will of the Empire is unquestioned.

Where the men who wear the armor of the stormtroopers are recruited from is unknown, just another part of the mystery that adds to the aura of fear and secrecy that surrounds these soldiers.
=======================

You're the one who is saying we should disregard the Zahn triology instead of making them both fit, we don't see why you are so resistant to that idea.
I've just had a theory wich makes both statements fit, is that good enough for you?

Stravo wrote:WHAT is the big deal?

You tell me, you're the one who is practially channeling a hypermatter reactor inside your skull :p

Also, I posted a theory similar to Sirnitrams earlier on, THE HONOR IS MINE AND MINE ALONE!

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-15 05:04pm

Oh did you now HDS? Then lemme see it, and let see if it worthy to be compared to the theory brought to us by SirNitram, whom-might I add-has blessed my ankles!