US Citizens getting detained by ICE.

[Enigma]

By the way ...

Your laughable, pathetic speculation on my citizenship status is irrelevent. Yes! Laguna will get to be a citizen before me! I am not 'making an opinion', nor even guessing: I am not going to become a US citizen. But no, you had to get personal. Because this is a vendetta for you, apparently. When you have real rebuttals to the post at hand, and thus are not violating the forum rules? Oh wait, you won't!

Ummm, not to ask silly questions, but shouldn't you automatically become a US citizen by virtue of marrying LadyTevar, who I assume is a US citizen by birth?

Nope. SirNitram will most likely undergo a 2 year conditional residency while the government conducts an inspection to insure the marriage isn't a fradulent one, and then he'll get a permanent residency. I think you have to be a permanent resident for at least 5 years before being able to apply for naturalization.

Which he should be qualified for by now? I think they've been married for 5 years? I may be wrong and either LadyTevar or Nitram will correct me. In my case I don't think the 2 year bit applies to my wife and I as of the 26th of this month we'll have been married for 2 years and a little more so when I have my interview in october.

[irishmick79]

By the way ... Ummm, not to ask silly questions, but shouldn't you automatically become a US citizen by virtue of marrying LadyTevar, who I assume is a US citizen by birth?

Nope. SirNitram will most likely undergo a 2 year conditional residency while the government conducts an inspection to insure the marriage isn't a fradulent one, and then he'll get a permanent residency. I think you have to be a permanent resident for at least 5 years before being able to apply for naturalization.

Which he should be qualified for by now? I think they've been married for 5 years? I may be wrong and either LadyTevar or Nitram will correct me. In my case I don't think the 2 year bit applies to my wife and I as of the 26th of this month we'll have been married for 2 years and a little more so when I have my interview in october.

It depends on how far along with the paperwork SirNitram and LadyTrevar are - if LadyTrevar has already filed the petition for SirNitram, he can probably get in on a K3 visa. I know the USCIS backlog is pretty severe, and in some cases they are just getting to I-130 applications which they received in 2001-2003.

[irishmick79]

I'm sorry, I didn't make that very clear.

LadyTrevar needs to submit a petition on SirNitram's behalf. This is the I-130. After that is approved, then SirNitram can adjust to a permanent resident status after filling out an I-485. Then, he has to wait to apply for US citizenship.

At least this is a generic outline of how the process works - I don't know enough about the specifics of their case to comment on their situation.

[SirNitram]

I should note the above where LadyTevar assists in my immigration status is entirely non-necessary: I've been a full legal permenant resident since the mid-80s. In short, the only real difference between my present status and Citizen is I cannot be drafted by the US Military(The British military can still yank me up, and I could volunteer for the US Military), and I cannot serve Jury Duty. I consider both a formality; my high education and attention to detail would make any lawyer hate me on the jury, and my birth defects ensure I wouldn't really bit fit for most military jobs.

There is actually only one way to fast track citizenship and not permenancy. That's the recent changes for those who enlist in the military. I fully support this, though I would like to see it expanded to more forms of public service.

[SirNitram]

That's the thing; the Bush Administration is well-known for sacking people and replacing them with people whose "values" are more "compatible" with their own. In other words, if you're not a racist douchebag who thinks that people suspected of illegal immigration should be treated like animals, they will fire you and replace you with someone who is. Why shouldn't we accuse the ICE leadership of being racist douchebags, then?

I basically chalk up all this to three major factors:

1) Political Cronyism. The Bush Administration is well known for it, and has gone to great lengths to secure it, especially in the immigration judges. This has locked in a heavily movement-conservative presense in the very process which shouldn't be deporting citizens.

2) INS being absorbed into Homeland Security, becoming ICE. Very simply, very clearly, there's a change of mission already. But more importantly, their budget, their personnel, their whole structure is now changed and subservient to the looney tunes who use colour-coded danger levels. Much like how FEMA became a sad joke when we saw how they reacted to disaster after absorbtion.

3) Excuses being made. Look. A non-idiot, when they see systemic failures of an institution and constant excess regulations(We can seize your laptop and keep it now!), would change things and push for change if he cannot directly. However, because it is the 'Scary Brown People' and the 'Illegals Bringing Down Wages', it becomes acceptable casualities. Until someone in D.C. has the balls to stop listening to the drooling xenophobes and institute some reform, ICE will continue breaking laws and granting themselves new powers.

Immigration law does need a few tweaks, but the major problems are the institution charged with the operations of those laws is a farce.

2,436 years to go! WHEEEEEEE!

[Enigma]

I'm sorry, I didn't make that very clear.

LadyTrevar needs to submit a petition on SirNitram's behalf. This is the I-130. After that is approved, then SirNitram can adjust to a permanent resident status after filling out an I-485. Then, he has to wait to apply for US citizenship.

At least this is a generic outline of how the process works - I don't know enough about the specifics of their case to comment on their situation.

Crap I didn't know about the I-485. $1010 down the drain.

[SirNitram]

Welcome to the glories of the ICE, Enigma! This is why I say the agency needs a swift kick to the skull. They don't bother to mention shit they should.

[Ender]

2,436 years to go!

I don't get it.

[SirNitram]

2,436 years to go!

I don't get it.

From the article:

"At this record rate of arrests, it would still take 2,943 years to deport the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants," said Lofgren.

I got the numbers wrong, but the point remains: In a few mileenia, this'll succeed!

...If illegals enter at only a sufficient rate to replace population losses.

[Enigma]

Welcome to the glories of the ICE, Enigma! This is why I say the agency needs a swift kick to the skull. They don't bother to mention shit they should.

Well, I have six months after I pass my interview to move to the U.S.. I'm using as much time as I can get to scrounge up as much money. My wife is going to hate it but it is necessary to cover the I-485 and any other possible forms.

[SirNitram]

Welcome to the glories of the ICE, Enigma! This is why I say the agency needs a swift kick to the skull. They don't bother to mention shit they should.

Well, I have six months after I pass my interview to move to the U.S.. I'm using as much time as I can get to scrounge up as much money. My wife is going to hate it but it is necessary to cover the I-485 and any other possible forms.

Good luck is all I can say.

It's really hit or miss for the actual offices and the folks there. The border folks are almost entirely assholes, but the local ICE guys here in WV are nice enough and just want to get this shit done. Plus, no waiting lines.

[irishmick79]

Welcome to the glories of the ICE, Enigma! This is why I say the agency needs a swift kick to the skull. They don't bother to mention shit they should.

In our defense, this is more of a problem with US Citizenship and Immigration Services, an entirely different bureaucracy. We hate them too. They make our job harder by being incompetent fucks who will barely glance at an application for a benefit before denying or approving it. Also, when there is an application to adjust status pending, they change a subject's class of admission to 'unknown' in an alien registration file, and don't bother to make a record of what the original class of admission was. Creates a ton of investigative busy work.

[irishmick79]

That's the thing; the Bush Administration is well-known for sacking people and replacing them with people whose "values" are more "compatible" with their own. In other words, if you're not a racist douchebag who thinks that people suspected of illegal immigration should be treated like animals, they will fire you and replace you with someone who is. Why shouldn't we accuse the ICE leadership of being racist douchebags, then?

I basically chalk up all this to three major factors:

1) Political Cronyism. The Bush Administration is well known for it, and has gone to great lengths to secure it, especially in the immigration judges. This has locked in a heavily movement-conservative presense in the very process which shouldn't be deporting citizens.

2) INS being absorbed into Homeland Security, becoming ICE. Very simply, very clearly, there's a change of mission already. But more importantly, their budget, their personnel, their whole structure is now changed and subservient to the looney tunes who use colour-coded danger levels. Much like how FEMA became a sad joke when we saw how they reacted to disaster after absorbtion.

3) Excuses being made. Look. A non-idiot, when they see systemic failures of an institution and constant excess regulations(We can seize your laptop and keep it now!), would change things and push for change if he cannot directly. However, because it is the 'Scary Brown People' and the 'Illegals Bringing Down Wages', it becomes acceptable casualities. Until someone in D.C. has the balls to stop listening to the drooling xenophobes and institute some reform, ICE will continue breaking laws and granting themselves new powers.

Immigration law does need a few tweaks, but the major problems are the institution charged with the operations of those laws is a farce.

2,436 years to go! WHEEEEEEE!

Pretty much dead on, except that I would add that enforcing immigration law essentially means enforcing a set of discriminatory statutes, since immigration law itself is basically rooted in discriminatory practices. It's very hard to enforce those laws credibily, since they generate so much controversy over what it actually means to be a US citizen and to be a visitor to the United States. You can have a huge range of disagreement over how those ideas actually translate into law, and consequently you get a hodge podge of enforcement policies which were developed or altered as a consequence of political battles between the various ideological camps.

I also don't think ICE would be nearly as anal about those kind of regulations if most immigration cases didn't involve a ton of identity and document fraud.

[MKSheppard]

Technically speaking, your country has laws which were intended to guarantee that the government had to jump through certain hoops in order to nab individuals for being guilty of crimes.

Irishmick answered those questions better than I could have; mainly because he's from the rough area, I believe, and has a closer insight into what really was going on in that plant.

I for example, didn't know that the company was essentially running a large scale operation to employ illegals and circumvent US employment law via forging all sorts of documents.

Wow.

I won't comment further on Irishmick's post, but I do believe in an operation this widespread in scope, application of the RICO laws is warranted to help us weed our way through the plant and find those responsible.

That's a good explanation for why he found himself in a detention cell. It doesn't explain why he couldn't be treated like a human being while he was in there. The people running these operations have no concept of ethics.

Actually. You'd be surprised how common this is. Prison and Jail guards are very blaise and cynical. They always assume unless it's something obvious, that you're malingering to get better treatment or a better cell. (Medical wing cells are by themselves, and usually have a TV -- at least that's the way it was in the MoCo Detention Center).

Link

Death Count Is High At Pr. George's Jail
Records Reveal Homicides, Suicides

Sixteen inmates have died while in custody at the troubled Prince George's County Correctional Center in recent years, nearly half from homicides and suicides, putting the jail's mortality rate above those in many big cities, state and federal records show.

An inmate charged with stealing $60 in groceries from a Giant store died last year after he was struck in the head during an argument over a doughnut. Another, on suicide watch, refused food and water and died from severe dehydration. A third inmate, 24, died of a virus that led to pneumonia.

"My son was perfectly healthy when he went in there," said Paulette Martin of Prince George's, whose son, Semaj E. Martin, had been charged with trying to kill his former girlfriend during a fight. "There is not a day that goes by that this doesn't disturb me. Just because you are incarcerated, doesn't mean you don't deserve medical care."

The safety of inmates at the Prince George's jail has drawn widespread attention since the apparent strangulation of Ronnie L. White, 19, who was found in his cell in June. County, state and federal officials are investigating.

Using federal records and state autopsy reports, The Washington Post tracked a spate of additional deaths at the jail dating to 2000, raising critical questions about the level of violence and the quality of care at the 21-year-old facility. The jail, in Upper Marlboro, has 1,500 inmates, most awaiting trial or serving short-term sentences.

In a typical year, 85 percent of jails nationwide have no deaths, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which tracks inmate mortality rates. A majority of Maryland's estimated 25 jails reported few or no deaths from 2000 through 2005.

During that same period, however, Prince George's reported nine deaths, the third-highest total in the state after Baltimore City, 66 deaths, and Baltimore County, 16 deaths. Baltimore City's facility is 2 1/2 times larger than Prince George's.

Montgomery and Anne Arundel counties, with slightly smaller jails, reported one death and five deaths, respectively. The mortality rate at the Prince George's jail over that period was less than the average for big-city jails but higher than the rate at jails in Atlanta, Tampa, New Orleans and many other major cities.

Since 2005, an additional seven inmates in Prince George's have died, records show, raising the jail's death rate even more. Two of the recent deaths were ruled homicides.

Prince George's County Public Safety Director Vernon Herron would not comment on specific deaths or safety policies, citing the ongoing White investigation. It was unfair to compare the jail with others, he said, adding that his facility processes 20,000 inmates a year, many for violent crimes. Some inmates died in hospitals, he said.

"We are always exploring ways to enhance our operation, which includes keeping our employees and inmates safe," he said in a statement. "Despite our best efforts . . . some inmates are successful in committing suicide in our facility."

Of the 16 deaths since 2000, eight were of natural causes, and one was of an unknown cause, records show. Some were inmates with life-threatening conditions, such as leukemia and enlarged hearts, autopsy reports show. Several died of strokes or heart attacks.

Records show that five inmates committed suicide, including Lawrence P. Collington, 53, who was jailed in 2007 on charges that he killed his wife. According to autopsy records, Collington was put on suicide watch and placed in a locked isolation room on the medical ward, where he was later found unconscious.

He had refused food and water and died of dehydration, according to the autopsy report. The report does not say whether jail officials tried to force-feed Collington.

"It was totally unsettling," said Collington's brother-in-law, Sammy Cole of Prince George's. "We've never gotten any answers."

When Collington's sister-in-law, Carol Cole, learned of his death, she said her first thought was, "Do they sit there and let you die?"

Three other inmates hanged themselves, including Michael W. Sears, 55, who used a rope fashioned from bed sheets and shoelaces; and Rafael G. Escoto, in his early 30s, who attached a sheet to a light fixture. Escoto, jailed on assault and other charges, killed himself the night he was taken into custody. Details on a fifth inmate who committed suicide in 2005, according to federal records, were not available.

It can be difficult for jails to prevent suicides if inmates are determined to take their own lives, said Circuit Court Judge C. Philip Nichols Jr., who was preparing to sentence Sears for murder when he committed suicide.

There are "safeguards you can put in place," Nichols said, but inmates "know there are ways to work around them."

Human rights groups, however, said that with enough staff, training and oversight, jails in most cases can prevent suicides, homicides and accidents.

"The No. 1 responsibility of a prison or jail is to keep people alive," said David Fathi, U.S. program director of the advocacy group Human Rights Watch in New York. "Because these are environments of total control, there is really no excuse for homicides or suicides to occur. But when you add into the mix ingredients like inadequate training and crowding, you get bad outcomes."

The Prince George's jail has 18 isolation cells for inmates at risk of suicide, which, unlike regular cells, have plexiglass walls and cameras to monitor inmates, according to a veteran jail employee. The beds are always full, the employee said, and troubled inmates are frequently moved out of isolation to make room for "someone who's 10 times worse."

For months, correctional officers have complained to county officials of extreme crowding, a rise in gang activity and a lack of officer training and equipment, such as helmets, batons and reliable radios. Bunk beds are crammed into common areas to accommodate overflow. The jail was built for about 1,330 but is often over capacity by about 200 inmates.

County records show that the number of disturbances, emergency responses and inmate assaults have increased, along with the number of times officers have used force to subdue inmates.

Keeping officers has also been a challenge. Almost half of the officers at the jail have been on the job for less than five years, according to the most recent data available, and hiring has not kept up with the increase in inmates.

More than a dozen officers, meanwhile, have had run-ins with the law, including charges of theft, domestic violence and assault; many of them are still on the force.

Curtis Knowles, president of the Prince George's Correctional Officers Association, said last month that there have been virtually no changes at the jail since officers reported the crowding, training and equipment problems to the County Council in January.

"If you keep taking funding, if you keep failing to provide the necessary equipment . . . these problems will always exist," he said in an interview.

White's death is under investigation by the Maryland State Police, the FBI and the Prince George's state's attorney. White, who was charged with killing a police officer, was found dead in his maximum security cell shortly after his arrest.

It was the second homicide at the jail in two years. Last year, Octuan Gant, imprisoned on assault charges, accused inmate Demetri R. Stover of taking a doughnut from a bin under Gant's bed.

Gant, who weighed 285 pounds, slugged the 169-pound Stover in the face with a closed fist, causing him to hit his head on the cement floor, according to court documents. Stover, 46, was taken to the jail's medical unit for observation but was not taken to the hospital for tests, according to the Stover family attorney. Stover was returned to his cell the same evening, the attorney said.

After Stover began convulsing and became unresponsive, he was flown to a hospital in Baltimore, where, after several days of treatment and surgery, he died.

Gant has been charged with manslaughter.

Stover's father, a retired police officer, said the family had expected Stover to return home after a few days in jail. He had been charged with stealing food from a Giant store.

"They should have better care than that," Leroy Stover said.

Stover's family is considering a civil lawsuit against county authorities.

"He didn't have to die. He shouldn't have died. And others were responsible for his death," family attorney Timothy F. Maloney said.

I actually do have some limited second hand experience in jail deaths.

The guy in the cell next door to me, he went off to the medical wing one day, and then didn't come back. I heard from another inmate that he died of a heart attack while there. Poor guy was only a few months from completing his DUI sentence.

Why is this relevant in any way to someone who has trouble navigating the paperwork to legally immigrate?

Actually, the two are pretty similar in length of time, possibilities of screwups, and involvement with government agencies which are notorious for having no sense of humor.

I've.. Never done anything to deserve not driving.

That was a joke. You failed to understand it.

Anyway, your response was mildly surprising to me, considering your claim of being disabled your whole life to the point of nobody being willing to hire you.

That implied a pretty damn serious disability; I know epileptics who can hold down a job and a driver's license -- it's just that after each random seizure, their license is revoked for about six months and requires a doctor's examination to be given back.

Drive by post? What, I can't post something?

We know you hate ICE. Do you have to broadcast it every other day in N&P by spamming the forum up with ICE related topics?

[SirNitram]

'Spamming up the forum', because I posted two articles? 'You aren't hired because you have a disability; ergo you're incompetent'? You're making me laugh.

You're not responding logically, but your opening post was nothing but a personal attack, so I'm not surprised. But no, I can hold a job. Did until the liver got so bad I had to quit. No one hires because.. Guess what! There's a stigma to an obvious disability! I would expect you would grasp this. Then again, I doubt you grasp anything you don't want to.

Your comment about 'spamming up' is laughable. ICE landing in the news because they're an incompetent, lawbreaking bunch of thugs is going to get posted. My personal opinion is not involved: It is news, influenced by politics. You just hate it because your personal politics supports them.

[Darth Wong]

Irishmick answered those questions better than I could have; mainly because he's from the rough area, I believe, and has a closer insight into what really was going on in that plant.

I for example, didn't know that the company was essentially running a large scale operation to employ illegals and circumvent US employment law via forging all sorts of documents.

Wow.

I won't comment further on Irishmick's post, but I do believe in an operation this widespread in scope, application of the RICO laws is warranted to help us weed our way through the plant and find those responsible.

That may be, but it doesn't mean that they can sweep up people and stick them in detention cells without legal representation. The fact is that these people have essentially been written a blank cheque by the Bush Administration to flout constitutional protections for individuals, and they're cashing it. Somebody can try passing the buck back and forth between those two, but I'm condemning them both.

That's a good explanation for why he found himself in a detention cell. It doesn't explain why he couldn't be treated like a human being while he was in there. The people running these operations have no concept of ethics.

Actually. You'd be surprised how common this is. Prison and Jail guards are very blaise and cynical. They always assume unless it's something obvious, that you're malingering to get better treatment or a better cell. (Medical wing cells are by themselves, and usually have a TV -- at least that's the way it was in the MoCo Detention Center).

You have done a good job of showing how common it is. However, that doesn't make it acceptable.

[irishmick79]

[That may be, but it doesn't mean that they can sweep up people and stick them in detention cells without legal representation. The fact is that these people have essentially been written a blank cheque by the Bush Administration to flout constitutional protections for individuals, and they're cashing it. Somebody can try passing the buck back and forth between those two, but I'm condemning them both.

That's a good explanation for why he found himself in a detention cell. It doesn't explain why he couldn't be treated like a human being while he was in there. The people running these operations have no concept of ethics.

By law, ICE has to give detainees access to a consular office from whatever country they come from. 95% of the time, detainees waive this right because they know they're here illegally, and the consulate won't help them, especially if they've got a criminal history. They also have the right to legal representation - the problem is that immigration law is written in such a manner to make it very difficult for a detainee to remain in the country after having been charged with/or convicted of a crime, due to requirements that permanent residents and those trying to naturalize as citizens have to show good character. Consequently, the government has a lot of latitude to interpret that, and even an able lawyer representing a detainee faces an uphill battle in the immigration courts if there are criminal charges involved. In a lot of cases, illegals who have been in and out of the system don't even bother with a lawyer because they know it's a waste of time.

Bottom line is that immigration law is written in such a way as to be fairly unforgiving to non-immigrants and permanent residents who get any kind of a criminal history.

[irishmick79]

In the interests of disclosure, I should point out that I work out of a national law enforcement center in Vermont for ICE. We manage the DHS crime tip line and give immigration status information to law enforcement agencies across the country. I'm not actually in Van Nuys. I have details on that case because our center often plays a support role for ICE operations.

[Darth Wong]

[That may be, but it doesn't mean that they can sweep up people and stick them in detention cells without legal representation. The fact is that these people have essentially been written a blank cheque by the Bush Administration to flout constitutional protections for individuals, and they're cashing it. Somebody can try passing the buck back and forth between those two, but I'm condemning them both.

That's a good explanation for why he found himself in a detention cell. It doesn't explain why he couldn't be treated like a human being while he was in there. The people running these operations have no concept of ethics.

By law, ICE has to give detainees access to a consular office from whatever country they come from. 95% of the time, detainees waive this right because they know they're here illegally, and the consulate won't help them, especially if they've got a criminal history. They also have the right to legal representation - the problem is that immigration law is written in such a manner to make it very difficult for a detainee to remain in the country after having been charged with/or convicted of a crime, due to requirements that permanent residents and those trying to naturalize as citizens have to show good character. Consequently, the government has a lot of latitude to interpret that, and even an able lawyer representing a detainee faces an uphill battle in the immigration courts if there are criminal charges involved. In a lot of cases, illegals who have been in and out of the system don't even bother with a lawyer because they know it's a waste of time.

Bottom line is that immigration law is written in such a way as to be fairly unforgiving to non-immigrants and permanent residents who get any kind of a criminal history.

You know this article is about people who are not necessarily illegal immigrants being swept up in these dragnets, right?

[irishmick79]

You know this article is about people who are not necessarily illegal immigrants being swept up in these dragnets, right?

Yep. The basic problem with a lot of these ops is that so many of the illegals have fradulent documents claiming US citizenship it's an investigative nightmare to figure out who's actually a legit citizen or not.

[Darth Wong]

You know this article is about people who are not necessarily illegal immigrants being swept up in these dragnets, right?

Yep. The basic problem with a lot of these ops is that so many of the illegals have fradulent documents claiming US citizenship it's an investigative nightmare to figure out who's actually a legit citizen or not.

Well quite frankly, that's your problem, isn't it? The fact that a lot of illegal immigrants have fake paperwork does not mean you can just start sweeping up people for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You act as if their rights are something you can just brush aside if it slows down your arrest rate.

[irishmick79]

You know this article is about people who are not necessarily illegal immigrants being swept up in these dragnets, right?

Yep. The basic problem with a lot of these ops is that so many of the illegals have fradulent documents claiming US citizenship it's an investigative nightmare to figure out who's actually a legit citizen or not.

Well quite frankly, that's your problem, isn't it? The fact that a lot of illegal immigrants have fake paperwork does not mean you can just start sweeping up people for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You act as if their rights are something you can just brush aside if it slows down your arrest rate.

Yep, that is our problem. You also have the problem that these people are here illegally, and using fraudulent documents to gain benefits that they otherwise wouldn't be eligible for. That alone violates a whole series of criminal statutes, both on federal and state levels. In workplace raids like this where there's evidence of systematic abuse, how else would you treat the problem from a law enforcement perspective?

[irishmick79]

Also in in a lot of these raids, the US citizens involved get implicated in aiding and abetting this activity, because of their association with the people running a company that is systematically violating the law. It's not like these people are entirely innocent in these affairs.

[SirNitram]

Please indicate where in the Constitution it says 'Aiding and abetting an illegal alien violates your rights to due process and a lack of unreasonable search and seizure'.

I'll wait.

[irishmick79]

Please indicate where in the Constitution it says 'Aiding and abetting an illegal alien violates your rights to due process and a lack of unreasonable search and seizure'.

I'll wait.

ICE gets court orders and went through proper legal procedures to get their warrants. I can't comment on the exact nature of the warrants as they are still sealed. Granted, the Special Agent in Charge screwed up big time by not letting detainees get attorneys as quickly as they should have. Still, before the operation went down ICE prepared lists of attorneys who would to pro bono work related to the Van Nuys raid, and after complaints were made about access the restrictions were eased. The SAC definitely made a mistake, but ICE rectified the situation.

Frankly, the question of constitutionality of these raids will be decided by Federal Court. ICE followed the proper procedures as it exists now.