What "Pro-Evolution" Argument is most persuasive t

[Darth Wong]

Whenever I try to counter with evidence recent occurrences of evolution, I almost always get hit with the line "That's microevolution, not macroevolution." I know this is bullshit, but I have absolutely no idea how to counter it on the spot.

Ask them to explain why large amounts of microevolution would not eventually lead to macroevolution. Ask them if they even understand what "micro" and "macro" mean.

Honestly, that argument is like saying that because bacteria are microscopic, they can't possibly have an effect on a macroscopic organism like a human.

[Themightytom]

I'm a catholic who ahs believed in Evolution sicne gradeschool because he was taught it that way (BY a catholic school).

however in high school we did a unit on creationism (The teacher was not a happy camper and she placed the unit right after the one where we studied the people who believe we are living on the back of a giant turtle, on purpose i think...)

That was the first time i thought about "Creation" as anything other than a giant analogy. For .000000098 seconds, and eternity for an android) i entertained the idea that the dinosaur bones were placed in the earth as a test and that man and ape were in no way related.

THEN I started to consider what went along with Evolution. Do I believe there was EVER a giant dome seperating the water above us from the land we live on? And that that dome was punctured during Noah's flood?
Absolutely not.

Do I believe the Earth is flat, in order to accomodate a dome, and all this "Round earth" stuff is a hoax as is the lunar landing, space station and satalites.
No.

HOW THE F MUCH WATER MUST THERE HAVE BEEN to fill all of space if the world is indeed round, and where did all of that go?

For me this was most convincing argument regarding evolution was what i would have to accept along with it.


The second approach I have used is more philosophical, and while it is not immediately gratifying, a person responding emotionally to a held belief will process it more readily. There a few baptists in our class at that time one of which tried very hard trying to sell me on the idea that God did in fact create the world 6000 years ago but included dinosaur bones and clues to the "History" of the earth to amuse and test us.

I demanded that he prove to me or himself that God hadn't created the world 18 seconds ago and all of the things he "remembered" hadn't really "Happened" it was all just part of his brain that had been included in his creation. Then I asked him to tell me the difference. if God created him 18 seconds ago and included all of those elements of reality which made him think he had been living for quite a bit longer, again, what is the difference.
For all intents and purposes his life had happened, so either way for all intents and purposes Evolution happened.

unfortuantely I think I screwed him up because he left his church a year later, and two years after that he was committed for getting a hold of a samurai sword and waving it around in a mall. its probably better to try the first strategy before using the reality bomb.

[Twoyboy]

THEN I started to consider what went along with Evolution. Do I believe there was EVER a giant dome seperating the water above us from the land we live on? And that that dome was punctured during Noah's flood?
Absolutely not.

Do I believe the Earth is flat, in order to accomodate a dome, and all this "Round earth" stuff is a hoax as is the lunar landing, space station and satalites.
No.

HOW THE F MUCH WATER MUST THERE HAVE BEEN to fill all of space if the world is indeed round, and where did all of that go?

As much as I love making fundies look like idiots, I don't think it's a good idea to take the debate off course. Then you'll end up explaining 200 years of science to them.

Sure, if they delve into this area, smack them down, but then bring it back to the primary debate, else you'll get sucked into playing their game.

[General Zod]

THEN I started to consider what went along with Evolution. Do I believe there was EVER a giant dome seperating the water above us from the land we live on? And that that dome was punctured during Noah's flood?
Absolutely not.

Do I believe the Earth is flat, in order to accomodate a dome, and all this "Round earth" stuff is a hoax as is the lunar landing, space station and satalites.
No.

HOW THE F MUCH WATER MUST THERE HAVE BEEN to fill all of space if the world is indeed round, and where did all of that go?

For me this was most convincing argument regarding evolution was what i would have to accept along with it.

That doesn't really have all that much to do with evolution at all per se, since evolution is really only concerned with biological organisms. But it is a compelling argument against creationism and biblical literalism.

[Twoyboy]

Found it: http://www.fstdt.com/winace/designed_or ... /index.htm

Classic stuff.

[Vendetta]

It's like saying "That's one car (of many) moving, not traffic".

That implies that there is a distinction.

Just point out that there is no such thing as "micro" and "macro" evolution. There is only evolution, and the degree of change observed depends on the timescale and selective pressures.

[Lord Insanity]

I have found this statement to be quite effective at instilling a moment of realization in fundies. Every living thing on earth from a blade of grass to a human being begins its own personal existence as a single celled organism. Granted I have never encountered one of the indoctrinated debaters to try it on so who knows how that would work on them.

[Count Dooku]

In the word's of my fiance's grandmother, "I didn't come from no monkey!".

WARNING: Boring personal story.

As someone who was raised by two secular (but semi-I sort of believe-Christians) parents, I don't think I could ever get into the mindset of a fundie. Understanding them is difficult, at best. I never really believed in god at any age. Even while I was young I thought going to church was just an old tradition like the bride throwing the flowers to the other chicks at a wedding - I never thought people REALLY believed in god.

My parents took me to a Catholic church with them sometimes, and I even had the chance to talk to the 'father'. He was a really cool guy (a former Buddhist monk), and told me that he could not tell me anything that would make me believe - it was something I'd have to find out for myself. He was a really honest guy, and every experience I had at that church was positive.

I think one thing that contributed to my skepticism was having a father (a geochemist) who was able to answer my questions (why is the sky blue, what are clouds, etc) as a young child. I know I'm generalizing, but IMO fundies tend to not know as much as secular parents, and as such, end up saying 'god did it', and instead of inspiring their kids to love science, they inspire their kids to marvel at the glory of god. Damn shame.

I think my parents knew I thought church was a load of BS, because they only brought me like five times.

[CaptJodan]

THEN I started to consider what went along with Evolution. Do I believe there was EVER a giant dome seperating the water above us from the land we live on? And that that dome was punctured during Noah's flood?
Absolutely not.

Do I believe the Earth is flat, in order to accomodate a dome, and all this "Round earth" stuff is a hoax as is the lunar landing, space station and satalites.
No.

HOW THE F MUCH WATER MUST THERE HAVE BEEN to fill all of space if the world is indeed round, and where did all of that go?

As much as I love making fundies look like idiots, I don't think it's a good idea to take the debate off course. Then you'll end up explaining 200 years of science to them.

Sure, if they delve into this area, smack them down, but then bring it back to the primary debate, else you'll get sucked into playing their game.

"But it's god, and god can do anything" no limits fallacy. Or, "We/science don't/doesn't know everything." I'm always amazed when people I know, people who are otherwise fairly intelligent, come out with that argument, but it happens a lot. Any kind of rational response that tells them how badshit insane they must be to believe that the Flood occurred, or that there really WAS a talking, flying snake, talking fire, and dinos and humans lived together as vegetarians, always ends up with "It's God, he can do anything" type responses.

I realize these people are basically beyond hope, but it nevertheless surprises me. In any other topic, they would be rational people, but they turn their brains completely off, because the thought of being descended from an ape (even though that isn't even accurate), offends them. Or, more likely, that such knowledge would actually shake the foundations of their faith. Their otherwise rational mindset makes me wish I could make them see past the delusion, or at least question it.

With the particular brand of nutters that I have in my family, you can't even say "Even the Catholic Church has made indications that evolution is valid", because the SDAs feel that the Catholics will be one of the signs of the apocalypse, forcing everyone to conform to their religious beliefs.

[wautd]

"But it's god, and god can do anything"

Except causing evolution ofcourse...

[CaptainZoidberg]

If God created all of the species in their current form, and species have gone extinct over the years, then why don't the oldest layers of the fossil record have the most biodiversity? Why don't the newest layers have the least?

[Darth Wong]

Personally, I don't see why people assume that someone who makes horribly illogical fundie arguments is "smart and rational otherwise". That is one of the litmus tests of one's thinking skills, so it's silly to say "well, he's smart and rational when he's doing ordinary everyday things that don't require intelligence or rational thought". It's like pointing a finger at someone who's horribly out of shape and saying "Well, he seems like he's quite fit when he's sitting on the couch", or "he's a great swimmer as long as he's not in the water".

You can only tell how smart someone is when you put him to the test. The fact that he acts normal and is well-spoken might help weed out knuckle-dragging hillbillies, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily smart.

[Aquatain]

Asking religious why they have a tailbone in their fat asses is sometimes useful.

[docfrance]

Asking religious why they have a tailbone in their fat asses is sometimes useful.

"Who are we to question God's great plan? The Lord saw that we would need a bone to support our mighty rears, and ye, verily, we were blessed with a mostly redundant tailbone. And God saw that it was good."

[Zixinus]

I don't know how good this is, but here it is: why is there insanity?

Why are parents, both good and bad, punished by children that are retarded either mentally, emotionally, physically or socially? Even if it is the parents that are tested, why must the children suffer?

In view of evolution, it is that some bad genes collide and we get a screw-up somewhere in the brain. It doesn't even have to be genetic: sometimes brain chemistry screws up on its own. The brain is a pretty complex organ after all, glitches and errors are expected to happen in a self-assembling program.

That doesn't tell me "design" or "creation in its own image" of an omnipotent creator. That tells me of a sadist, which God shouldn't be.

[Darth Wong]

I don't know how good this is, but here it is: why is there insanity?

Why are parents, both good and bad, punished by children that are retarded either mentally, emotionally, physically or socially? Even if it is the parents that are tested, why must the children suffer?

In view of evolution, it is that some bad genes collide and we get a screw-up somewhere in the brain. It doesn't even have to be genetic: sometimes brain chemistry screws up on its own. The brain is a pretty complex organ after all, glitches and errors are expected to happen in a self-assembling program.

That doesn't tell me "design" or "creation in its own image" of an omnipotent creator. That tells me of a sadist, which God shouldn't be.

The parents of severely disabled children are often the most devout believers. They need to cling to the fantasy that there is some sort of cosmic justice and that their precious child will live on after death, in a place where no one is disabled and everyone is healthy and happy forever. It's absolutely heart-wrenching.