An odd moral dilema that has arose in my mind...

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I have been going through some mental changes recently. I have begun to try and solidfy what it is that I believe. Mr. Dawkins book The God Delusion has been helping me with that, along with talking with some of my friends and getting to know more about myself.

This "searching" has led my mind to change quite a bit. Oddly enough, at least from my own previous point of view I have become more compassionate, something that still seems odd to me since I'm only a "transitional" atheist. But here is my dilema.

I have wanted to be in the military since I was a child. I have always had a sense of self righteousness. I have wanted to be a scion of justice and a bringer of the light of law. I have wanted to crush "evil doers" beneath my boot and end their lives by bullet or bomb (I used to want to be a pilot). There are some people who I know are bad in the traditional sense and I always saw the black and white, never the shades of grey. However today I was watching wide angle on pbs about gangs in El Salvador. For the first time those people seemed real to me. They weren't just gang banger who killed people and thus needed to be whiped from the face of the earth. They were guys like me, who were poor, who chose the life of the ganger, because everything else was shit. They are fathers who want better lives for their children and have decided to sully their hands in the blood of innocents so their children don't have to. They are young men who want to be leaders and would never get the chance so they lead their neighborhood by selling drugs. For the first time I saw someone who I used to think needed death, as a person just like me who made choices that were "bad". While there are those who just like to cause mayhem, some of them just want to live.

Though while this has brought me closer to them in the mental sense in that I see them as people and not targets, my sense of justice has grown stronger. I feel like I must fight because I know despite the fact that some of them are misguided, they are still criminals and murderers and someone needs to be out there to stop them. I think I that I would still be able to do the job of killing, if I ever get the chance, but that it would be far less palatable than I had previously thought.

I don't know, it's just something I was thinking about.

[Setzer]

If you want to fight with a clear conscience, think of it as fighting so someone else won't have to. Also, remember what you saw. Sometimes, in life, there are no good choices.

[Darth Wong]

Of course, if someone really wants to help others, there are plenty of ways to help others besides fighting. Are you sure you want to fight out of a sense of justice, or do you want to fight because that's what you've been conditioned to think that's what heroes do?

[Androsphinx]

Sorry to necro this a little (though it's still quite high up on the first page), but wouldn't looking at law enforcement in any of its guises be a better idea than going into the armed forces, if your primary motivation is to prevent crime and related social problems?

Wouldn't that be a more direct way to address these issues than signing up to the army and hoping that the politicians in your country (I assume the US) will send you to the sorts of places on the sorts of missions with the sorts of goals which you prefer? Pretend that you were thinking about this ten years ago - do you really think that being in the US army 1998-2008 would have been the best way to pursue your goals?

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I absolutely positively despise law enforcement, at minimum at the municipal level and state. If I wanted to do law enforcement, I would need to be in an organization like the FBI.

I'm just going to stay on the track I am now, either get a commission through ROTC or enlist after graduating. There are too many people in the military that wouldn't recognize the humanity of their fellow combatants and too many people that don't want to do the jobs that my country needs to get done. I know that I am pushing myself to be the kind of person and thus the kind of soldier that is not automata. We need that now, especially if we're fighting the kind of asymmetric warfare that we are. I've spoken to too many soldiers who spout "kill 'em, they're terrorists" and "'M'ERIKA" to let myself sit around and not go in being the soldier I want to be.

Honestly the only reason I haven't enlisted already is because I need to finish college first.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I absolutely positively despise law enforcement, at minimum at the municipal level and state. If I wanted to do law enforcement, I would need to be in an organization like the FBI.

I'm just going to stay on the track I am now, either get a commission through ROTC or enlist after graduating. There are too many people in the military that wouldn't recognize the humanity of their fellow combatants and too many people that don't want to do the jobs that my country needs to get done. I know that I am pushing myself to be the kind of person and thus the kind of soldier that is not automata. We need that now, especially if we're fighting the kind of asymmetric warfare that we are. I've spoken to too many soldiers who spout "kill 'em, they're terrorists" and "'M'ERIKA" to let myself sit around and not go in being the soldier I want to be.

Honestly the only reason I haven't enlisted already is because I need to finish college first.

It is worth noting that at least with enlisted men, they are to a degree trained to think like that. It makes it easier to do their jobs and kill if they can either devalue or dehumanize their enemies.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I absolutely positively despise law enforcement, at minimum at the municipal level and state. If I wanted to do law enforcement, I would need to be in an organization like the FBI.

I'm just going to stay on the track I am now, either get a commission through ROTC or enlist after graduating. There are too many people in the military that wouldn't recognize the humanity of their fellow combatants and too many people that don't want to do the jobs that my country needs to get done. I know that I am pushing myself to be the kind of person and thus the kind of soldier that is not automata. We need that now, especially if we're fighting the kind of asymmetric warfare that we are. I've spoken to too many soldiers who spout "kill 'em, they're terrorists" and "'M'ERIKA" to let myself sit around and not go in being the soldier I want to be.

Honestly the only reason I haven't enlisted already is because I need to finish college first.

It is worth noting that at least with enlisted men, they are to a degree trained to think like that. It makes it easier to do their jobs and kill if they can either devalue or dehumanize their enemies.

One of the main reasons I A) chose the army (not more women than the navy, not as pussified as the airforce, not borgish like the marines) and B) wanted to be an officer.

[Apollonius]

First off, some disclaimers. Much to my regret, I have never been a soldier. However, I have great respect for them, and all things military fascinate me, even though I'm not a militarist in any sense. I also feel that self-righteousness you describe. Like yourself, I too can see how even criminals are only humans, and, also like you, I still come to the conclusion that being human is no excuse for being a menace to others.

But, man... sorry for putting this so bluntly (and I wonder why no one else has done so yet), but if you want to smite evildoers, the military should be the last of all conceivable choices. Armed forces are almost never being dispatched in order to punish criminals. That's not their mission. Armies are there to fight the enemies of their country. They never ask whether the people they're about to kill actually deserve to be killed, and they often act in ways that are regarded as criminal in the eyes of many. The US armed forces are certainly no exception to this universal rule.
So, while your dream is to bring rightful punishment to evildoers, you'd probably onle end up killing random enemy soldiers (who might even have joined their respective army out of the very same desire you described in your OP), or maybe even a bunch of totally innocent civilians (either by mistake or out of carelessness).
In fact, and with all due respect, that mindset of yours would not make you a very good officer. It strikes me as unprofessional. An officer's prime ethical concern should be whether his own actions are lawful (lawfulness comes before morality, because it is consistent and objective), and his last concern should be the moral qualities of his enemies (except when he has to take them into consideration for practical purposes).

If you really like soldiering, if you like living in a clear-cut environment, if you're OK with authority and hard work, if you wish to further the goals of your nation (be they noble, pragmatic or hypocritical, to a professional this doesn't matter), then I'd say you might become a good officer. But if the only reason you want to join the army is an urge to dispense justice, I'd advise against that. You would end up in a world of frustration and disappointment.
Hell, you might as well join your local street gang, that would give you a more realistic chance of snuffing some real bad guys, by way of gang wars, if nothing else.


P.S.: I really hope I didn't say anything that might seem like I'm attacking your person. In fact, I think your thoughts are honest and endearing. You sound like a person I'd want to be friends with.

[Apollonius]

(Argh, no edit button - I'll never get used to that!)

Here's an idea, if you really want to fight bad guys: be a state attorney. Or a journalist for an incorruptible news agency (there must be one or two left of those). Or an ombudsman.


Of course, you could always wait for a radioactive spider to bite you.

[Block]

I absolutely positively despise law enforcement, at minimum at the municipal level and state. If I wanted to do law enforcement, I would need to be in an organization like the FBI.

I'm just going to stay on the track I am now, either get a commission through ROTC or enlist after graduating. There are too many people in the military that wouldn't recognize the humanity of their fellow combatants and too many people that don't want to do the jobs that my country needs to get done. I know that I am pushing myself to be the kind of person and thus the kind of soldier that is not automata. We need that now, especially if we're fighting the kind of asymmetric warfare that we are. I've spoken to too many soldiers who spout "kill 'em, they're terrorists" and "'M'ERIKA" to let myself sit around and not go in being the soldier I want to be.

Honestly the only reason I haven't enlisted already is because I need to finish college first.

It is worth noting that at least with enlisted men, they are to a degree trained to think like that. It makes it easier to do their jobs and kill if they can either devalue or dehumanize their enemies.

One of the main reasons I A) chose the army (not more women than the navy, not as pussified as the airforce, not borgish like the marines) and B) wanted to be an officer.

I'd just like to point out that Wilkins and myself were enlisted Marines and are in no way "borgish." If you think the Airforce is too pussified you need to think about what your life goals are. If the military and higher levels of command isn't your goal, "pussfication" shouldn't factor in, what kind of training and clearances should be. Joining the military is a great way to serve your country, it's not a great way to help people directly. If you want to help people and smite something, start volunteering for Habitat for Humanity help smite poverty, yes it's a christian organization, but who gives a fuck as long as poor people get houses and the chance they deserve?

It really sounds like you're setting yourself up for failure, because although I wouldn't trade my time in the Corps for anything, I knew going in that it wasn't going to be some crusade for justice, it was service to my country that I was capable of, and a family tradition that stretches back past the Revolution. I knew that most of my time in would be sitting around cleaning weapons, or in my case my LAV over and over again, training for a while, and then cleaning some more. You sound like you're setting yourself up for frustation and bitterness.

[Aaron]

I have wanted to be in the military since I was a child. I have always had a sense of self righteousness. I have wanted to be a scion of justice and a bringer of the light of law. I have wanted to crush "evil doers" beneath my boot and end their lives by bullet or bomb (I used to want to be a pilot). There are some people who I know are bad in the traditional sense and I always saw the black and white, never the shades of grey. However today I was watching wide angle on pbs about gangs in El Salvador. For the first time those people seemed real to me. They weren't just gang banger who killed people and thus needed to be whiped from the face of the earth. They were guys like me, who were poor, who chose the life of the ganger, because everything else was shit. They are fathers who want better lives for their children and have decided to sully their hands in the blood of innocents so their children don't have to. They are young men who want to be leaders and would never get the chance so they lead their neighborhood by selling drugs. For the first time I saw someone who I used to think needed death, as a person just like me who made choices that were "bad". While there are those who just like to cause mayhem, some of them just want to live.

Though while this has brought me closer to them in the mental sense in that I see them as people and not targets, my sense of justice has grown stronger. I feel like I must fight because I know despite the fact that some of them are misguided, they are still criminals and murderers and someone needs to be out there to stop them. I think I that I would still be able to do the job of killing, if I ever get the chance, but that it would be far less palatable than I had previously thought.

I don't know, it's just something I was thinking about.

If this is what your looking for in the military, your going to be very dissapointed. To echo Block, a good portion of your time (like 90%) is going to be spent on maintaining your kit, exercises, parades and the good old "thumb up your bum" days.

If you do get deployed you won't be smiting anyone but the dog poor conscripts of the other side or the dog poor militia of the other side. Most of who are probably there for the daily ration of rice and water. Then you get the joy of seeing your buddies come home fucked up and missing their dangly bits. I suggest you think long and hard on what that means.

Chances are that you'd achieve more "good" by joing the Peace Corps or donating money to Doctors Without Borders. Hell volunteer with UNICEF and go to Africa and distribute fucking eyeglasses.

Like Block, I wouldn't trade my time in the CF for anything and I'd do it again if I had the chance but I don't think you have a realistic view of what life will be like. And with the idealism your displaying here I can gaurantee you'll have a hard time with it.

[PeZook]

If you want to help people directly, really: either volunteer for charity work, or join law enforcement (why, exactly, do you "hate" cops, anyway? Institutional corruption?).

Perhaps going into local politics would bring you more satisfaction than joining the armed forces? There's a lot of potential to help people there, despite all the bullshit.

[Duckie]

If you want to help people directly, really: either volunteer for charity work, or join law enforcement (why, exactly, do you "hate" cops, anyway? Institutional corruption?).

Perhaps going into local politics would bring you more satisfaction than joining the armed forces? There's a lot of potential to help people there, despite all the bullshit.

Noticably, if it is institutional corruption, the fact that the armed forces are not free of this is a cogent point

[Knife]

As another former serviceman I figure I'll toss my two pennies in here.

I have been going through some mental changes recently. I have begun to try and solidfy what it is that I believe. Mr. Dawkins book The God Delusion has been helping me with that, along with talking with some of my friends and getting to know more about myself.

This "searching" has led my mind to change quite a bit. Oddly enough, at least from my own previous point of view I have become more compassionate, something that still seems odd to me since I'm only a "transitional" atheist. But here is my dilema.

Good for you.

I have wanted to be in the military since I was a child. I have always had a sense of self righteousness. I have wanted to be a scion of justice and a bringer of the light of law. I have wanted to crush "evil doers" beneath my boot and end their lives by bullet or bomb (I used to want to be a pilot). There are some people who I know are bad in the traditional sense and I always saw the black and white, never the shades of grey.

I think this would be an unhealthy mind set to go into any profession. I guess, as with all things, moderation in this mind set would yield various results. A compelling need to change things for the better; would be normally a good and healthy thing while, self righteous need to smite evil; would be to single minded and bad.

However today I was watching wide angle on pbs about gangs in El Salvador. For the first time those people seemed real to me. They weren't just gang banger who killed people and thus needed to be whiped from the face of the earth. They were guys like me, who were poor, who chose the life of the ganger, because everything else was shit. They are fathers who want better lives for their children and have decided to sully their hands in the blood of innocents so their children don't have to. They are young men who want to be leaders and would never get the chance so they lead their neighborhood by selling drugs. For the first time I saw someone who I used to think needed death, as a person just like me who made choices that were "bad". While there are those who just like to cause mayhem, some of them just want to live.

There you go, congratulations. As to military applications, AD is actually wrong in his post about this. Most grunts in the trenches realize quite well that the grunt across the two-way rifle range is just a poor grunt like he is.

Most grunts compartmentalize combat with something akin to- "That average joe is trying to kill me and my friend so I'll kill him first." Yes demonization does happen but usually with high levels of psychological stress and not as a matter of 'training'.

Though while this has brought me closer to them in the mental sense in that I see them as people and not targets, my sense of justice has grown stronger. I feel like I must fight because I know despite the fact that some of them are misguided, they are still criminals and murderers and someone needs to be out there to stop them. I think I that I would still be able to do the job of killing, if I ever get the chance, but that it would be far less palatable than I had previously thought.

I don't know, it's just something I was thinking about.

As a soldier, you are a tool as is the military in general. It's the politicians that crusade for such lofty ideals you want to make, as a soldier you'll just be the tool they use. Doesn't mean you get to smite the all mighty evil lord of destruction, you just might be the guy who guards the jeep that another guy might use tomorrow to drive over to the meeting that describes who they might send to smite the body guard of the secretary that takes the minutes in the meetings of the all mighty evil lord of destruction.

If you truly have a passion to right wrongs, etc... go into politics or law.

One of the main reasons I A) chose the army (not more women than the navy, not as pussified as the airforce, not borgish like the marines) and B) wanted to be an officer.

Way to champion those principles of sexism, immaturity and stereotyping.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

As another former serviceman I figure I'll toss my two pennies in here.

I have been going through some mental changes recently. I have begun to try and solidfy what it is that I believe. Mr. Dawkins book The God Delusion has been helping me with that, along with talking with some of my friends and getting to know more about myself.

This "searching" has led my mind to change quite a bit. Oddly enough, at least from my own previous point of view I have become more compassionate, something that still seems odd to me since I'm only a "transitional" atheist. But here is my dilema.

Good for you.

I have wanted to be in the military since I was a child. I have always had a sense of self righteousness. I have wanted to be a scion of justice and a bringer of the light of law. I have wanted to crush "evil doers" beneath my boot and end their lives by bullet or bomb (I used to want to be a pilot). There are some people who I know are bad in the traditional sense and I always saw the black and white, never the shades of grey.

I think this would be an unhealthy mind set to go into any profession. I guess, as with all things, moderation in this mind set would yield various results. A compelling need to change things for the better; would be normally a good and healthy thing while, self righteous need to smite evil; would be to single minded and bad.

However today I was watching wide angle on pbs about gangs in El Salvador. For the first time those people seemed real to me. They weren't just gang banger who killed people and thus needed to be whiped from the face of the earth. They were guys like me, who were poor, who chose the life of the ganger, because everything else was shit. They are fathers who want better lives for their children and have decided to sully their hands in the blood of innocents so their children don't have to. They are young men who want to be leaders and would never get the chance so they lead their neighborhood by selling drugs. For the first time I saw someone who I used to think needed death, as a person just like me who made choices that were "bad". While there are those who just like to cause mayhem, some of them just want to live.

There you go, congratulations. As to military applications, AD is actually wrong in his post about this. Most grunts in the trenches realize quite well that the grunt across the two-way rifle range is just a poor grunt like he is.

Most grunts compartmentalize combat with something akin to- "That average joe is trying to kill me and my friend so I'll kill him first." Yes demonization does happen but usually with high levels of psychological stress and not as a matter of 'training'.

Though while this has brought me closer to them in the mental sense in that I see them as people and not targets, my sense of justice has grown stronger. I feel like I must fight because I know despite the fact that some of them are misguided, they are still criminals and murderers and someone needs to be out there to stop them. I think I that I would still be able to do the job of killing, if I ever get the chance, but that it would be far less palatable than I had previously thought.

I don't know, it's just something I was thinking about.

As a soldier, you are a tool as is the military in general. It's the politicians that crusade for such lofty ideals you want to make, as a soldier you'll just be the tool they use. Doesn't mean you get to smite the all mighty evil lord of destruction, you just might be the guy who guards the jeep that another guy might use tomorrow to drive over to the meeting that describes who they might send to smite the body guard of the secretary that takes the minutes in the meetings of the all mighty evil lord of destruction.

If you truly have a passion to right wrongs, etc... go into politics or law.

One of the main reasons I A) chose the army (not more women than the navy, not as pussified as the airforce, not borgish like the marines) and B) wanted to be an officer.

Way to champion those principles of sexism, immaturity and stereotyping.

Thank you. I am considering going into law and politics after being in the military. If I am to be a tool then so be it. I couldn't conscionably take up politics without having actually been at the literal forefront of change, being in the trenches. I wouldn't be able to feel like I had any real understanding of it.

And just so you know, there is not thing wrong with being guy and wanting to be around lots of guys doing the same shit no ladies about. As long as that exclusion doesn't carry over to any job or activity where mixed gender work is prevalent, I see nothing wrong with it. And it's not necessarily stereotyping to say that the airforce is "pussified" (relating to physical work). The PT requirements are less stringent than the other branches and there are far fewer combat deaths in the AF (at least in this war) than compared to the army or marines (though the nature of their mission and lack of pretty much any competition explains that). In addition the marines as a branch are more geared toward conventional combined arms and have been, as a branch, lack the diversity and thus seem less keen to adapt to the asymmetric, unconventional warfare that the war on terror and the majority of future military actions are likely to be.

[Block]

In addition the marines as a branch are more geared toward conventional combined arms and have been, as a branch, lack the diversity and thus seem less keen to adapt to the asymmetric, unconventional warfare that the war on terror and the majority of future military actions are likely to be.

Haha. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Marines have adapted extremely well. Small unit action, rapid response, urban combat, these are areas where the Marines usually outshine the Army. These are a big part of counter terror and unconventional warfare. Do some more research kid.

[Lonestar]

Rip...no offense dude, but didn't we have a similar thread in the OT where you expressed worry about "the gangs" in the military and how you were stringing your mother along so you could get college money?

Maybe the military isn't for you. Most people who go into the military with preconceptions by and large have the same preconceptions as everyone else. Yours are so oddball that I think you'll have violent disagreements with military life.

You may want to seek another career path, I guess is what I'm saying.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

In addition the marines as a branch are more geared toward conventional combined arms and have been, as a branch, lack the diversity and thus seem less keen to adapt to the asymmetric, unconventional warfare that the war on terror and the majority of future military actions are likely to be.

Haha. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Marines have adapted extremely well. Small unit action, rapid response, urban combat, these are areas where the Marines usually outshine the Army. These are a big part of counter terror and unconventional warfare. Do some more research kid.

Unfortunately I have done research and while those are the wonderful traits of the corps, they are not the only and most important part of counter terrorism. They are the most visible aspects and are most analogous to C/W. U/W on the other hand is not just direct action and "shoot up the bad guys" which is an attitude that marines are stereotyped into and you apparently seem to be reinforcing (assuming you are a marine). U/W is also foreign internal defense, utilizing training indigenous forces, and especially intelligence gathering. JSOC from what I understand has tried to implement marine units and they have thus far proven not as successful as already existing counter-terror u/w units such as the seals and SF. MARSOC is still developing and was reorganized only as of last year.

Either way the marines as a branch do not have a history of the many other elements essential to U/W and are still adapting. The army has a history of special warfare longer than that of the marines as does the navy.

[Block]

The forces that were reorganized came from the guys who had been conduction counterterror and indig training ops for decades. The reorganization last year was because of integration into SOCOM, everyone has had difficulty with the integration, it's not a unique problem. Again, you need to look into things a bit more deeply.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Rip...no offense dude, but didn't we have a similar thread in the OT where you expressed worry about "the gangs" in the military and how you were stringing your mother along so you could get college money?

Maybe the military isn't for you. Most people who go into the military with preconceptions by and large have the same preconceptions as everyone else. Yours are so oddball that I think you'll have violent disagreements with military life.

You may want to seek another career path, I guess is what I'm saying.

You are referring to this thread?

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I wasn't expressing worry. I was mentioning how my mother sent me an e-mail mentioning her fears about gangs.

[rant]
And no, I was not "stringing my mother along" for college money. It was because I was then incapable of completely caring for myself, ergo I needed to buy time at home to find a place to stay. My college was taken care of by financial aid last semester and I will be paying for a portion of it this semester. In addition I no longer live with my mother so there is no problem of me living off my mother, which never happened. She did not pay rent. I payed about half, the other was taken care of by Section 8. She did not pay for electricity, I did. She did not have a job, I did. I didn't respond to that thread because I did not and do not need to defend my position with her. I did not need to explain that my great-grandmothers death resulted in an inheritance to me, which she essentially forced me to give her and she continues to live on. I did not need to mention that I gave her half of my loan money and my entire financial aid refund because I saw no other way to pay for things. I did not need to mention that my mothers "rules" were biblical nutjob whacko shit. I did not need to mention that the only reason her apartment was "her" apartment was because her name was on the lease. Not because she took care of the responsibilities (okay she made the phone calls to the bill collectors and paid with my money) of a home, cooking, cleaning, etc. That was me. My situation was what it was and I am out (largely). The only thing left I have to do is, upon the end of this semester, force my mother to relinquish dependent status on me for the 2009 fiscal year.

And do not tell me I need to choose "another career path". As I mentioned there are gang (current not former) members in the military. Even if they are NCO's they are most assuredly no more worthy than me to wear there uniform. And there are more than enough examples of officers of similar caliber. Yet they are still in the army and still do their jobs. I'm not saying this because I think I'm fit to be an officer. In my mind I'm not. But I am forging myself into a person who is. I want to serve my country and fight the good fight. If I didn't think my nation was doing some things that were right I wouldn't want to. I know what military life entails. I'm not ignorant about. No I'm not ready for it. Nor is it expected of me to be. I've got 5 semesters before a commission would even be an option. That's more than enough time to make myself the person who I need to be.[/rant]

[Aaron]

So tell me then...what is this good fight you allude too?

Because from where I sit, I see a naive boy who actually thinks that military service is about righting universal wrongs and parading about play acting as a hero. Rather than a job that is tool for foriegn policy, which means those wrongs you are righting just happen to be the ones that your government opposes at the moment.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

The forces that were reorganized came from the guys who had been conduction counterterror and indig training ops for decades. The reorganization last year was because of integration into SOCOM, everyone has had difficulty with the integration, it's not a unique problem. Again, you need to look into things a bit more deeply.

Force recon from what I understand and from what the wiki article explains, are tasked with supporting the marine corps. They are from what I have read and the wiki article explains, primarily a direct action force. This has nothing to do with FID and portions of intelligence (I should have been more specific) such as HUMINT and CI. They do mainly observation and intel gathering and do not appear to be integrated with indig forces, such as the SF.

However my statement was not that the marines did not participate in indig or FID or HUMINT in addition to U/W and CT it was more analogous to the fact that that is not and has not been their primary mission and they have shown a greater amount of difficulty than the other branches integrating into SOCOM. The army has historically been the first when it came to FID and U/W and there simply are more soldiers working at this then marines. I'm not saying that the marines don't do it, just that the army has been doing it longer and there are more guys in the army dedicated to U/W.

[Block]

Force Recon no longer exists, they were absorbed into the recon battalions, which is why they've had trouble integrating into SOCOM as their mission has changed from one identical to the SEALs and Green Berets to one more similar to the Rangers. Force Recon definitely worked with local forces quite often since the 50's just like the others, the difference being they fell directly under the supervision of the Commandant of the Marine Corps rather than a joint operations command, much like the SEALs and Berets did until SOCOM was formed. Those two integrated a bit sooner, thus the reason their structure is settled, but the Marines have always been more determined to maintain it's own command structure and was forced to change, which has brought about difficulties.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Force Recon no longer exists, they were absorbed into the recon battalions, which is why they've had trouble integrating into SOCOM as their mission has changed from one identical to the SEALs and Green Berets to one more similar to the Rangers. Force Recon definitely worked with local forces quite often since the 50's just like the others, the difference being they fell directly under the supervision of the Commandant of the Marine Corps rather than a joint operations command, much like the SEALs and Berets did until SOCOM was formed. Those two integrated a bit sooner, thus the reason their structure is settled, but the Marines have always been more determined to maintain it's own command structure and was forced to change, which has brought about difficulties.

I agree with this completely. It's just that the army does the same mission more often is better at it. Of the JSOC units most publicly known about 3 of them were/are drawn from army commands ISA, CAG, SOAR. Also JSOC which is most assuredly the spearhead of SOCOM, works with other units of the other branches more often (DEVGRU, SEALS, SF, AF Para) and has from what I understand it had great difficulty integrating the corps.

[Block]

How could you POSSIBLY know who does what more often? The missions are for the most part secret clearance or higher. And the reason for the difficulty integrating lies with Rummy. He forced it, it wasn't needed or wanted on the part of the Marines so there was a great deal of resistance. Sure, the leaders said all the right things, but they had no real interest in it. You're assuming that the difficulty in integration has anything to do with ability. You're equating publicity with ability as well, a very bad assumption.