Your thoughts on the Gundam series

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Post Reply
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Destructionator XIII wrote: What would this really do for the story though? The Gundam world is already huge.
I would get to go to Jupiter and Saturn and all over the place. Pretty much every Gundam series of like, eleven, has been set on or around Earth. There's nothing actually wrong with this, but other planets and locations are potentially cool as well. Trying something new can't really hurt the metaseries - G Gundam was awesome and is a huge departure from what cameq before, while being recognisably Gundam.
What? Gundam 00 is only half over.
Yeah, and I'm talking about the last third of the first season. :P
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
Shadowtraveler
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Post by Shadowtraveler »

What about a Gundam series whose main conflict is between Earth and Mars?

It'd be kinda cool to have battles on the red planet.
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Shadowtraveler wrote:What about a Gundam series whose main conflict is between Earth and Mars?

It'd be kinda cool to have battles on the red planet.
It would be possible, and probably more convincing, after a fashion, than a battle between earth and its orbital colonies. At the same time, Mars is really far away, meaning that you would have to be really commited to fighting each other. It's not as bad as if Earth and Jupiter were trying to fight it out, but it would still take a lot of effort to get assets to Mars from Earth, or vice versa. That's potentially quite interesting - there's no turning back for the United Alliance of the Earth Sphere Federation in its battles against the Red Menace.

Personally, I would like to see a Gundam series where the Earth itself is not especially important, for a change. This was basically the most refreshing thing about Gundam 00 - there were three opposed superpowers playing off each other and the Gundam unit, instead of a great big Federated Sphere of the Earth Alliance.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
Dendrobius
Mecha Fanboy
Posts: 317
Joined: 2002-11-25 01:04am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by Dendrobius »

Before going onto "new" stuff, animate Hathaway's Flash! That, closely followed by Gundam Sentinels. If I can see either or both as OVAs, I'll be able to die happy. Well, maybe also after seeing the end of Five Star Stories... :lol:

Gundam Unicorn has Chinese translations as serialized in the Chinese version of Gundam Ace magazine, but that's about it for stuff not in Japanese; way too new and far too niche for any English translations to have come out. It's pretty good so far, not quite as good as Sentinels, but I'd still put it ahead of your "average" Gundam series...so far.

Or animate Mobile Suit Gundam Ixab: Goddess of the Fallen Soldiers, which was a 4 volume manga series set around Operation British and depicts the crew of a Magellan battleship and the EFSF's first fight against Zeon MS.
I know there is a method, but all I see is the madness.
User avatar
VF5SS
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3281
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:14pm
Location: Neither here nor there...
Contact:

Post by VF5SS »

There actually was a Gundam series set on Mars. The F90 manga is all about a someone stealing one of the F90 Gundam prototypes and taking it to the Old Mobile army, who are a group of Zeon remnants on Mars. In the game they had upgraded Zakus and Gelgoogs and the like but in the manga they had regular Zeon stuff from 0079. It was kinda funny to see the F90 going around beating them up since it's about a few heads shorter than the average OYW MS.
プロジェクトゾハルとは何ですか?
ロボットが好き。
User avatar
Ryushikaze
Jedi Master
Posts: 1072
Joined: 2006-01-15 02:15am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Post by Ryushikaze »

If I was trying to do my own Gundam series, I'd have two ways to do it.

Firstly, there's the cold war approach. Two opposed Colonies or collection of colonial powers are opposed to each other but don't want to escalate into full fledged war. Primarily the series would be about the ratcheting tension, the industrial espionage, and various things one would expect as two countries creep towards war, including failing peace talks (one of the few parts of the depiction I'd set on earth.). I'd also set the series to be pre-MS, showing the machines revealed near the end of the series, with the final scenes showing the change over from cold war to hot, and the first actual battles of the war.

Showing a series set just after a war might also be interesting.

Another series I might do is one about a world in which, like in G Gundam, MS are used for bloodsport in a time of shaky piece, until a group of people who seek to restart the war hijack a few and try and destabilize the situation and return to war. The heroes would be sent along to kill or capture the thieves before they stir the pot too much. They have a 'disavow actions' clause hanging over their heads, little to no support, even in the form of resupply, and the tension that if they don't complete their duties in time, the world will be thrown into war again, as well as the knowledge that there is a time limit to their mission, but they have no clue what that mission is.
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

VF5SS wrote:It was kinda funny to see the F90 going around beating them up since it's about a few heads shorter than the average OYW MS.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall! :D
Firstly, there's the cold war approach. Two opposed Colonies or collection of colonial powers are opposed to each other but don't want to escalate into full fledged war. Primarily the series would be about the ratcheting tension, the industrial espionage, and various things one would expect as two countries creep towards war, including failing peace talks (one of the few parts of the depiction I'd set on earth.). I'd also set the series to be pre-MS, showing the machines revealed near the end of the series, with the final scenes showing the change over from cold war to hot, and the first actual battles of the war.
Certainly the development of mobile suits aptly reflects the real world's arms race. Except instead of building the biggest and best bombs, they're after the fastest, deadliest mobile suit. Competition would rife both inside and out.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
VF5SS
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3281
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:14pm
Location: Neither here nor there...
Contact:

Post by VF5SS »

Ford Prefect wrote: The bigger they are, the harder they fall! :D
Although parts of the manga were a bit
silly. You can actually do that with the F90 model kits. Also I think the artist had a light bondage fetish.

What's the big deal with Crossbone? The art seems pretty crappy. All of the characters are suddenly twelve years old for no reason.
プロジェクトゾハルとは何ですか?
ロボットが好き。
User avatar
Icehawk
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1852
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: Canada

Post by Icehawk »

Gundam 00 is a great series, my favorite of the alternate universe Gundam shows by far. UC Gundam shows are still my overall favorites. The Gundam movie Trilogy and 08th MS Team and MS Igloo at the top.

Yeah thats right, I LOVED MS Igloo. :) I have seriously rewatched those OVAs atleast 10-15 times each I think and sometimes I occasionally watch a few of the battle scenes because they are just so well played out and fun to watch, especially episode 2 with the kicass Zeon Tank of DOOM and the final episode space battle at A Baoa Qu.

The characters were OK I thought, certainly not the best, but I didnt mind the character designes and the voice acting was pretty good. For a first of its kind (All CG) show in the Gundam world, I'd say they did well enough. I liked the overall visual styling and all the historical nods to WWII (Zeon nazi-like uniforms and character traits, test weapons rushed to battle in desparation, the back and forth propaganda stuff, etc.) So far the short preview of MS Igloo 2 they seem to have greatly increased the CG quality, gonna be cool to finally see how the Earth federation dealt with things in the beginning of the war without mobile suits.

As for what I'd do. Well MS Igloo 2 is doing part of it. I would also like to see the original Gundam movie Trilogy completely redone with the highest quality art and animation they are willing to pay for and fixed in a way that eliminates some of the few obvious editing issues where you can tell they were just chopped up TV episodes.
"The Cosmos is expanding every second everyday, but their minds are slowly shrinking as they close their eyes and pray." - MC Hawking
"It's like a kids game. A morbid, blood-soaked Tetris game..." - Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs)
User avatar
Loner
Jedi Knight
Posts: 750
Joined: 2004-07-31 01:34am

Post by Loner »

Saxtonite wrote: wasn't that the point of G Gundam, a "controlled war" every certain amount of time (the duels?) Or did I watch that wrong?
Not exactly, the series I had in mind wouldn't have controlled type duels. More like the cold war idea someone brought up earlier.
"There are times I'd like to get my hands on God." - Frank Castle
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Whatever you do with it, this time, literally every conflict should be resolved by invoking the Minovski Particles, up to and including the main character splashing the main villain in the face with a big drum full of them.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Destructionator XIII wrote:That would be god damn stupid, even as a joke series. If I wanted to see particles solve all problem with no relation to their stated properties, I'd watch Star Trek: Voyager.
As opposed to a series where said particles do everything from nuclear fusion to radar jamming?
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

You might have a point Gil if the four-fold punch of Minovsky physics was treated more than just background material. In the shows themselves it's something that's hardly ever brought up.

Sure, such a subatomic magic bullet is pretty ridiculous, but it's not really something to rake Gundam over the coals for. Not when it's nowhere near comparable to Trek's treatment of particles and physics.
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Gil Hamilton wrote: As opposed to a series where said particles do everything from nuclear fusion to radar jamming?
Quite frankly, as far as bolonium which has no basis in science goes, Minovsky science is actually pretty good. It has clearly defined abilities and limits which are used to the advantage of the series. Is it ever used outside the purposes of shirnking power plants, acting as a ludicrously efficient heatsink, an all purpose jamming system, or in weaponry/defense?
Although parts of the manga were a bit silly. You can actually do that with the F90 model kits. Also I think the artist had a light bondage fetish.
And yet ... it's still better than SEED in that regard. I actually went to the trouble of watching the first two episodes of SEED last night. Basically everything which caught my attention for 00 was absent entirely.
What's the big deal with Crossbone?
Pirates.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
Commander 598
Jedi Knight
Posts: 767
Joined: 2006-06-07 08:16pm
Location: Northern Louisiana Swamp
Contact:

Post by Commander 598 »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote: As opposed to a series where said particles do everything from nuclear fusion to radar jamming?
Quite frankly, as far as bolonium which has no basis in science goes, Minovsky science is actually pretty good. It has clearly defined abilities and limits which are used to the advantage of the series. Is it ever used outside the purposes of shirnking power plants, acting as a ludicrously efficient heatsink, an all purpose jamming system, or in weaponry/defense?
Beam flags, but those were basically just beam shields without the shield part.
Although parts of the manga were a bit silly. You can actually do that with the F90 model kits. Also I think the artist had a light bondage fetish.
And yet ... it's still better than SEED in that regard. I actually went to the trouble of watching the first two episodes of SEED last night. Basically everything which caught my attention for 00 was absent entirely.
I personally found the first half of SEED to be okay...even if it was mostly MSG copy paste and involved some fairly WTF designs.
What's the big deal with Crossbone?
Pirates.
Image

Pirates!
User avatar
Ryushikaze
Jedi Master
Posts: 1072
Joined: 2006-01-15 02:15am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Post by Ryushikaze »

Ford Prefect wrote:Quite frankly, as far as bolonium which has no basis in science goes, Minovsky science is actually pretty good. It has clearly defined abilities and limits which are used to the advantage of the series. Is it ever used outside the purposes of shirnking power plants, acting as a ludicrously efficient heatsink, an all purpose jamming system, or in weaponry/defense?
When was it used as a heatsink? I don't doubt, I just can't remember. Also, technically, Minovsky particles are a side effect of the process that allows for the shrunken power plant, not what allows for it, but pfeh.
And yet ... it's still better than SEED in that regard. I actually went to the trouble of watching the first two episodes of SEED last night. Basically everything which caught my attention for 00 was absent entirely.
It was attempting to be MSG Redux, and had a few good ideas early and midway through the series, but it kind of killed its goodwill later on, and then went to make Destiny in an attempt to be Zeta Redux, with Shin as their Camille redux, and immediately failed that by having Shin be utterly unlikable and letting Kira steal the limelight again (something they specifically avoided in Zeta and, notably, ZZ). I still haven't finished Seed Destiny. I read the manga, and despite being 5 volumes, it contains pretty much every relevant plot point in GSD. That should tell you how little content it has.
The Astray sidestory, on the other hand, is quite fun. More humor and action based as opposed to a study on war with the conceit of giant robots, but enjoyable nontheless.
Pirates
SPACE pirates, with pirate mecha.
User avatar
VF5SS
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3281
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:14pm
Location: Neither here nor there...
Contact:

Post by VF5SS »

Ford Prefect wrote:And yet ... it's still better than SEED in that regard. I actually went to the trouble of watching the first two episodes of SEED last night. Basically everything which caught my attention for 00 was absent entirely.
Well, F90 does have the advantage of being a one volume manga. It's kind of a fun little premise of some guy coveting the power of a Gundam and stealing one that happens to have a battle computer based on Char while the other F90 has a battle computer based on Amuro. It'd make a nice super short OVA. And the G-Generation battle is so cute in a dark sort of way. I don't think I've ever read Silhouette F91. It seemed pretty generic. I haven't seen much of SEED but all the battles seem super generic beam spam. Which is ironic since the original Gundam SEED is ripping off is well known for its iconic fights.
プロジェクトゾハルとは何ですか?
ロボットが好き。
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Commander 598 wrote: I personally found the first half of SEED to be okay...even if it was mostly MSG copy paste and involved some fairly WTF designs.
Maybe it gets better or something, but I just can't get past how stupid the ZAFT helmets look*.
When was it used as a heatsink? I don't doubt, I just can't remember.
It just sort of happens as a result of using an I-field in the fusion process, as I recall, because of how it retards electromagnetic radiation.
Also, technically, Minovsky particles are a side effect of the process that allows for the shrunken power plant, not what allows for it, but pfeh.
Well, the fusion process which Minovsky invents produces the particle, which in turn was used by Zeon to create the ultracompact version, which uses a I field as containment. The actual fusion process came first, but the properties of Minovsky particles were then applied to the fusion process.
It was attempting to be MSG Redux, and had a few good ideas early and midway through the series, but it kind of killed its goodwill later on, and then went to make Destiny in an attempt to be Zeta Redux, with Shin as their Camille redux, and immediately failed that by having Shin be utterly unlikable and letting Kira steal the limelight again (something they specifically avoided in Zeta and, notably, ZZ). I still haven't finished Seed Destiny. I read the manga, and despite being 5 volumes, it contains pretty much every relevant plot point in GSD. That should tell you how little content it has.
It doesn't help that Kira is a wanker. For that matter, their obsession with acronyms, the poor mechanical design, the poor character design and so on just annoys me. SEED is just ... terrible, and I could never get into it.

*There are other things I don'tl ike about it.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
Commander 598
Jedi Knight
Posts: 767
Joined: 2006-06-07 08:16pm
Location: Northern Louisiana Swamp
Contact:

Post by Commander 598 »

Maybe it gets better or something, but I just can't get past how stupid the ZAFT helmets look*.
You mean that giant protrusion on the GINN's head? Yeah, that was pretty WTF, but I was thinking more along the line of the of the BuCUE...mostly because I felt it was copypasted from Zoids or whatever it was based on the five seconds that I've seen of it. But really, I found the CGUE to be quite sexy, such a shame Rau basically never got to do anything with it before the series turned into beamspamhax.

I personally felt the Coordinator gimmick of being able to balance a 20m robot was a load of crap and so were the OS and acronym gimmicks. Also the "homages" in GSD were very crappy homages. Personally, I think it was because they were too clean. The Zakus and Goufs that we all know and love were groundpounding badasses that wielded gunpowder based ballistic weapons and routinely raped face. The ZAKUs and GOUFs in GSD were FLYING beamspam and cannonfodder - kind of the anti-thesis of badass in the realm of real robots. There is only one image of a SEED Gouf being badass and it was a fanmade wallpaper, IIRC. Oh and their designs were fairly lame, the ZAKU has one melee spike and they both have boring flat shields.

Also: STOCK FOOTAGE.

Image

And that reminds me: Akatsuki! AKA Hyaki Shiki copy that has anti-beam coating that could deflect anti-matter beams, disregarding the fact that the Hyaku Shiki was shredded by beams regardless of it's coating. :rage:
User avatar
VF5SS
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3281
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:14pm
Location: Neither here nor there...
Contact:

Post by VF5SS »

Don't forget their terrible version of the Jet Stream Attack. Originality? What's that?
プロジェクトゾハルとは何ですか?
ロボットが好き。
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Commander 598 wrote:You mean that giant protrusion on the GINN's head?
No, I mean the helmets which ZAFT pilots wear. I don't actually mind the Ginn, which makes it a stand-out in SEED design.
Originality? What's that?
It just annoys me to no end that SEED had a billion different suits, and the designs which were not total crap were seemingly lifted directly from UC. SEED is just creatively bankrupt and I think we should probably talk about some of the positive aspects of the Gundam metaseries.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
Shadowtraveler
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Post by Shadowtraveler »

Out of curiosity, what does 00 have that SEED didn't? I never got a chance to watch the later.
User avatar
VF5SS
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3281
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:14pm
Location: Neither here nor there...
Contact:

Post by VF5SS »

It had Lockon Stratos. Really you didn't need anything else.
プロジェクトゾハルとは何ですか?
ロボットが好き。
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Shadowtraveler wrote:Out of curiosity, what does 00 have that SEED didn't? I never got a chance to watch the later.
Not in any particular order, but it had considerably superior animation quality, what with being the first Gundam series to be shown in HD. SEED's animation was very much average, and the character designs are, in a way I can't relaly explain, weird looking. Despite the fact that they're all ridiculously bish, the various Gundam Meisters had character designs I could say are actually fairly good, if none which are not all that fresh. Regardless, they're less generic than Kira Yamoto or Athrun Zala.

Then there's mechanical design. While some MS were pretty goofy (the Throne Gundams especially, but the GN-X was pushing it), others looked pretty cool. The Tieren is a triumph of design - it clearly has elements of the Zaku, and it clearly is the Zaku of 00, yet it has its own distinctive look (the same can be said of the Anf, incidentally). The Union Flag/AEU Enact are also cool, and to my knowledge do not actively reflect earlier MS designs (though I can claim to know what every MS looks like). They're fresh and original, as far as I know, and have elements that let them stand out, in particular their ludicrously badass eyeflash thing. It may just be me, but I think basically every original design in SEED is lacking in some way (especially the Strike Gundam, which is terrible).

Then there's the approach to technology. There is at least ten times the amount of made-up technobabble in SEED to 00. 00 has a central conceit in its GN science (and then later there's the Trans-Am system), but that's compared to the phase shift armour, the colloid particles, the N-Jammers and so on of SEED. Just the fact that GUNDAM, METEOR and DRAGOON are all terrible acronyms is just plain annoying.

For something slightly more substantial, I'd like to compare Kira Yamoto with Setsuna F. Seiei from 00. I can't talk so much about the plot of SEED, because I've only seen the first two episodes, but I can talk about the main characters. The first thing we ever see in regards to Setsuna is him running around a blasted warzone, AK in hand, with flashes to various acts of child soldiering, trying to avoid being killed by a bunch of Mobile Suits until he is saved by a Gundam (this is a pretty heavy handed bunch of scenes, mind you, with the central message of 'this is some terrible shit, yo'). Later on, we meet him after he has aged somewhat behidn the sticks of Gundam Exia. Comparitively, Kira Yamato is an ordinary high school engineering student. He gets caught up in a raid and gets knocked into the cockpit of the central Gundam unit of the series. This happens a lot, of course, and inevitably the ordinary high school student is always pretty awesome ... somehow. Except Kira is not satisfied with just that, so he basically reprograms the Strike Gundam's operating system, on the fly, while he is under attack by an enemy MS, just to drive home that he's a genius. I understand that he had originally written the OS onboard the Gundams, though he didn't realise that at the time, and thus was just completing it, but it's still silly. Yeah, Kamille Bidan designed the Zeta Gundam, but that wasn't nearly as jarring.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

And because I forgot to add it, I'd just like to point out that I'm basically operating on the impressions given to me by the first two episodes when it coems to Kira. It may actually get a lot better, but I was left with a sour taste in my mouth.

Though as VF5SS says, 00 had Lockon Stratos, which may also colour my experiences.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
Post Reply