Challenging Spocktard to a debate

[Imperial Overlord]

Is there anywhere I can get a quick rundown of how powerful modern weapons are, for the sake of comparison? It's nice to see hard numbers for comparisons between the 2 universes, but that doesn't help me figure out if that melta Jurgen is so fond of is more or less powerful than a modern tank cannon. Mostly I'm trying to wrap my head around how things scale up from familiar touchstones.

Mass and velocity can get you the kinetic energy of any projectile (although explosives are trickier), but you have to keep in mind that using kinetic energy to drive a piece of metal into someone is a much more effective way of doing damage than using the same amount of energy to heat something up.

[SAMAS]

Yeah, but not everybody knows the mass and velocity of modern weapons by heart, or at knows of/has a readily-accessible list they can cross-reference. I think a sticky on this page would be a good idea.

[SAMAS]

Ghetto edit: This forum.

[white_rabbit]

The Unseen have always been canon, they just couldn't use the old artwork. They got around that a while back with Project Phoenix, 3060 variants with slightly different art.

And the Battletechnology numbers are brutal. Single and low double digit megajoules for the 'mech mounted energy weapons. Not exactly stuff you want to trot out to prove the strength of the franchise.

You aren't kidding, that PPC spocky is wanking so furiously over is actually a 5 megajoule per shot weapon

[Thanatos]

You aren't kidding, that PPC spocky is wanking so furiously over is actually a 5 megajoule per shot weapon :Very Happy:

Actually, its outright stated to be kilojoule level from some of the sources I've seen. But its best to let him dream.

[The Dark]

The Unseen have always been canon, they just couldn't use the old artwork. They got around that a while back with Project Phoenix, 3060 variants with slightly different art.

Yeah, I have the Phoenix book. In the new 3039 book, they bring back the original Unseen, just without art - they hadn't had stats published since the original 3025 TRO - even the reprints removed them.

And the Battletechnology numbers are brutal. Single and low double digit megajoules for the 'mech mounted energy weapons. Not exactly stuff you want to trot out to prove the strength of the franchise.

Yep. I just found it in BattleTechnology issue 003, starting on page 22. A Small Laser is 0.8-1.5 megajoules, Medium is 1.5-3, Large is 3-5, and a PPC is 5 MJ.

For ranges, I'm going to quote directly from BattleTechnology 003, starting near the bottom of Page 45:

There are various reasons that the ranges of most weapons have been limited in the various BattleTech simulator roles. The most basic reason is that BattleTech is, first and foremost, a simulation of 31st Century mechanized combat, and, for various reasons, modern 'Mech-to'Mech combat rarely takes place at ranges of more than half a kilometer (see: BattleMech Weapons: Crisis of Range and Accuracy on page 22).
Although the overall level of technology among the Successor States has fallen since the days of the Star League, it is generally accepted that weapons technology during the 31st Century is still at or above the levels common in the late-20th/early-21st Centuries on Earth. Indeed, many of the weapons still in use during the 31st Century are relics of the Star League of three centuries and more ago and represent the peak of human weapons technology.
Obviously, then, the ranges listed on the BattleTech Weapons Table do not give the maximum range possible for the various weapons. (If they did, a 31st [sic] long range missile could be out-ranged by a 20th century assault rifle!)
What the BattleTech combat tables do list are ranges typical for most combat. Even with the high-tech, long-ranged laser weaponry of the Star League era, 'Mechs rarely attempted to engage targets as large, as fast, as well-armored, or as maneuverable as other 'Mechs at ranges greater than a few hundred meters.
There are situations, however, when it becomes important to engage targets at greater-than-usual combat ranges. BattleMechs holding a line against enemy 'Mechs advancing across a broad, open valley might attempt to cause damage or shake the attackers' morale by opening fire long before the attackers close to generally-accepted combat ranges. BattleMechs might attempt to engage "soft" targets such as infantry or infantry vehicles at ranges of as much as several kilometers, in order to harass enemy movements or to create a diversion.

The listed maximum accurate ranges on the chart after that is:
Small Laser 450 meters
Medium Laser 1350 meters
Large Laser 2250 meters
Particle Cannon 2700 meters
Long Range Missile 3150 meters
Short Range Missile 1350 meters
Autocannon/2 3600 meters
Autocannon/5 2700 meters
Autocannon/10 2250 meters
Autocannon/20 1350 meters
Machine Gun 900 meters
Flamer 90 meters

Extreme ranges (the distance the beam/projectile travels) are also given. It is noted that hitting at these ranges is "extremely difficult...but possible." Extreme ranges for lasers and PPCs is Line-of-Sight, to the horizon. Extreme range for the machine gun is 1800 meters, and extreme range for autocannons are 150% of their maximum range. Beam attenuation and shell scatter rules are also given, but would take me about another six paragraphs to explain .

[Imperial Overlord]

We used those ranges back when I was playing very long Mechwarrior campaigns with my high school buddies. Third edition Mechwarrior also has narrative combat rules with increased ranges, stating that board game ranges are reduced to increase playability and fun. Honestly 'mech weapon damage and durability is all over the place from source to source, but its clearly a lower end universe. Only a Trektard moron could think it wouldn't be reduced to jello by by going up against a universe which has easily man portable weapons in the GJ range.

[SAMAS]

The Unseen have always been canon, they just couldn't use the old artwork. They got around that a while back with Project Phoenix, 3060 variants with slightly different art.

Yeah, I have the Phoenix book. In the new 3039 book, they bring back the original Unseen, just without art - they hadn't had stats published since the original 3025 TRO - even the reprints removed them.

No, they've done all-new artwork for them, too. The mech in the middle of the Total Warfare book (present rulebook) and the TechManual (construction rules) is the new Battlemaster.

A lot of the redesigns are good (the Goliath, the aforementioned Battlemaster, and the Crusader, for instance), but a few of them kinda suck (like the Warhammer).

[SAMAS]

Gah. I misread that. Nevermind.

[PainRack]

Except that's wrong. The Capellans were forced to rely on light and medium designs because of the sad shape of their industrial facilities, whatever the state of their regiments before the start of the Succession Wars. Check the production figures in House Liao. The Capellans produce few heavies and no assaults and have suffered heavy attrition from being ground down and losing half their territory to Houses Marik and Davion. That's why the development of the Cataphract was a big deal. It was a heavy design that could slug it out with the big boys and be produced by their industrial base.

I'm checking the 4th Succession War volume as well as House Liao right now. The socioeconomics portion explictly lists the Thunderbolt as a distinctive, Liao battlemech.

House Liao did lose a significant number of its heavies Warhammers and Marauders against House Davion, but to suggest that she now carries a "light" weight tonnage, this when the mech listing for its regiments such as the 15th Dracon, 4th Tau Ceti rangers and etc are medium and heavies such as the Centurion/Rifleman is simply odd.

As for mech production, recheck your sources. St Ives produces the Victor. After the rennovation of Grand Base, House Liao continues to pump out assault designs.

[Imperial Overlord]

As for mech production, recheck your sources. St Ives produces the Victor. After the rennovation of Grand Base, House Liao continues to pump out assault designs.

St Ives becomes part of the Capellan Confederation again post 3050. The Thunderbolt is used by every House. That the Capellans use more of it than other heavy designs doesn't mean they have a proportionate number of heavy 'mechs. My arguments are on their pre-Clan invasion strength which every source that actually deals with House Liao agrees that they have fewer heavy and assault designs. Post Clan invasion they reclaim some worlds and have the technology and and backing to upgrade their production facilities, including some home grown assault designs. Post invasion they're in much better shape because they don't bleed, their enemies do, and they gain advanced technology with which to upgrade their production facilities and their armies.

But I'm not arguing about their post-invasion status.

[PainRack]

St Ives becomes part of the Capellan Confederation again post 3050. The Thunderbolt is used by every House. That the Capellans use more of it than other heavy designs doesn't mean they have a proportionate number of heavy 'mechs. My arguments are on their pre-Clan invasion strength which every source that actually deals with House Liao agrees that they have fewer heavy and assault designs. Post Clan invasion they reclaim some worlds and have the technology and and backing to upgrade their production facilities, including some home grown assault designs. Post invasion they're in much better shape because they don't bleed, their enemies do, and they gain advanced technology with which to upgrade their production facilities and their armies.

But I'm not arguing about their post-invasion status.

Neither am I. I'm debating the period between 3020-3050. Prior to 3025, the Cappellans certainly did have the ability to build assault mechs, as shown by the Victor battlemech.

As for general mech tonnage, my comment was that the Cappellans already HAD a lighter mech tonnage prior to the 4th Succession war and this isn't due to the "sad" shape they were in due to that conflict.

[Imperial Overlord]

I haven't looked a production stats in ages, so I'll concede the Victor, but not their overall weight class. It's firmly established in cannon that their production ability and weights of their 'mechs was disproportionately light.

The sad shape I was speaking of was the first Three Succession Wars when Marik and the Federated Suns beat the ever living shit out of them (more the Second and Third) and absorbed huge chunks of territory. They were still a viable power, but lacking in strategic depth, industrial strength, and the heavy designs that do well at defensive work (although the Vindicator is a good slugfest 'mech for a medium and no one sane disses the Hunchback). The Fourth Succession War moved them from being the weakest Successor State to minor state that had difficulty repelling an invasion from the Periphery.

[Thanatos]

Hence why I said only qualitative information held, and only within a given army

Actually, it doesn't even match up within an army. For example, infantry autocannons have the same stats save range as the

long barrel quad guns on the Hydra, despite the Hydra using far more powerful cannons. You'll see that on all the weapons

within a class. There's a wide range of weapons where they're given a universal stat despite their vast differences.

I would be quite a bit off. The Space Marines' bolter, however, is a larger and more powerful weapon, and fires

high-explosive shells.

Sorry about that, I was off by a single decimal place when looking at your response and thought you were saying single to

double digit KJ. Which is part of why I requested you to not mix notation.

As indicated here, a WWII-era 134mm naval gun used by the British, firing a 36.3 kg shell at 792 m/s, had a range of 21

kilometers.

You used a naval gun? That's a bit dishonest when you say the Earthshaker has WW2 performance, since that implies WW2

field guns.

The 15-16 km range figure is repeated in Imperial Armour volumes I, III, and V, in narration as well as fluff text.

I would hope so, its written by the same guy. However, we have multiple sources that contradict this. Necropolis has plunging

Earthshaker fire well past 70km and Tactica Imperialis has 100km Earthshaker fire.

It also means the force on the bullet and the barrel itself are being applied over a shorter distance; the Conqueror

barrel is 2.49m (Imperial Armour) while the Abrams barrel, a sample modern tank barrel, is 9.77m.

Horrendously wrong on the Abrams barrel. The L44 is 5.28m and the L55 is 6.6m. The Abrams' M256 is the L44, so you're off

by more than four meters.

190T*2.49m=473T*m; 56T*9.77m=548.8T*m - that's 16% more energy.

Also incredibly wrong, its the weight of the gun not the length of the barrel that determines recoil velocity and force.

Barrel length effects the dyamics of the round and adds additional weight as a side effect, reducing recoil. While we know

the total weight of the M256, we don't know the weight of the

Furthermore, the above citations make it clear that the Earthshaker operates at close to the maximum recoil of the Chimera

chassis, which also constrains the force of WH40K tank guns.

No your quote says that

Basilisks do not use overcharging, as the Chimera chassis is not considered stable enough, making shots wildly

inaccurate.

Considering that the Earthshaker weighs almost as much as the chassis its on, its not exactly surprising.

Blowing man-sized holes in walls is within the capabilities of modern MBT guns.

Note that it doesn't say "Man sized". Note that it doesn't specify the size of the whole, note that it doesn't specify the

building materials, note that it doesn't give us any comparison points at all.

Assuming the Conqueror manages to apply a peak 190 tonne force for the whole 2.49m length of its barrel, it has a muzzle

energy of 4.6 megajoules.

Again, wrong. Its weight not length that determines recoil force.

Also note that even the 155m shell you described has a muzzle energy of 6.1 megajoules

The muzzle energy of an M829A3 out of an L44 is 12MJ.

My calculations were that if lascannons could perform a feat I have never seen them perform, then they could have a yield of

that much.

Again, where are you getting this from? You haven't clarified what you have used to initially come up with 2GJ.

We see no such collateral damage in the game

Stop using the game! How many times and in how many ways do I have to tell you that?

And when have you seen Lascannon impacts that have failed to live up to what you think weapons of that power should do?

Not secondary, total effects

Actually no, to flash burn or sear those not caught outside the beam requires high MJ range energy since you need to

superheat the air to the point that it can cause searing or burning.

Guarantee? Of course not. Strong possibility? Thus speaks the fluff:

You can penetrate an Abrams with lighter weapons and a lot of luck if you aim at the right place on the hull. Examples of

tanks being destroyed by Lascannon fire does not tell us its penetration or first "round" kill probablility. We know it can

penetrate tank armor but we don't how well it does it. We have examples of tanks taking repeated Lascannon fire without being

penetrated.

For example, one in Honour Guard.

The disarmed Infardi machine was closing to less than forty metres now, and its hull-mounted lascannon began to spit bolts

of blue light at Sirius' conqueror.
..
With furious las-fire from the injured tank now splashing off the Wrath of Pardua's front casing, Sirus ordered his

layer to address the other tank coming around the first.

As for the example from Inferno, it depends on how you define an hour of combat. An Abrams with a loader at the maximum

allowed loading time can empty its ready racks in under two minutes and a good loader can get that down to a minute. However,

maximum rate of properly ranged fire is limited by the fact that using the LRF that much in that space of time will burn it

out, leaving you fucked. That's just the ready racks, you have to transfer rounds into them from the other ammo compartments

after that. There are a ton of variables that can go into determining "combat time" and we don't know any off them.

We do have an example of vehicle Lascannon ammo capacity with the Lightning and Thunderbolt having 30 Lascannon shots across

two packs or 15 shots per gun. This is thanks to them lacking the ability to charge their packs like a vehicle. So, if you

assume that they use the same packs (since the Lascannons and their packs are to my knowledge the same as those mounted on a

tank) that gives you 1.8GJ to 2.8GJ. 15 shots in one hour of "combat" is about right really since that's what a tank can

expect to fire out of its main gun in an hour unless its in particularly heavy fighting.

However, it is important to remember that it is old fluff and a lot of the other values listed have changed.

Most generous interpretation: 28 MJ/shot * 200 shots = 5.6 GJ. Considering the man-portable scale of the lascannon, and the

size of the power pack displayed on the Space Marine-portable variant, I expect at least three shots per

infantryman's-backpack of power pack.

They don't use the same packs. The infantry lascannon pack is much larger than the Krieg's Hellgun powerpack as you can see

by these comparitive photos.
Hellgun pack on the right. Krieg hellguns appear to be missing the generator found on Kasrkin hellguns.

And this is a good comparitive shot of a Lascannon pack.

Much, much larger. Ammo capacity on Lascannon packs is listed as being anywhere from 1-5 rounds.

Tau railguns, however, seem in particular effective:

Yes, they're the second best tank killing weapon in 40K, the first being the Vanquisher. You should note that the Tiger Shark

X10 uses much heavier railguns than a Hammerhead. They're pulled off off a Manta and are titan killer grade weapons.

PPC (tens of GJ due to melting glass across the street, significant harm to people):

No evidence of the glass being across the street given no description of the terrain. People on fire not surprising given

that its a plasma weapon but no real evidence of any high firepower.

Large laser (several GJ per cubic meter of sand):

No size given or depth of sand glassed. No evidence of glassing in the cubic meter range. Too subjective to be of use.

Large laser (multiple infantrymen):

Disappearing is too vague to be used for to calculate effects.

Medium laser (a few GJ required to match “daisy cutter” through inefficient thermal weapon; incident may be inspired by

game-mechanical ability to clear a 15m radius area of wooded terrain using a medium laser in one 10 second turn.)

Statement conveniently ignores MG fire but not its effects. Utterly dishonest.

Small laser (minimum several GJ per cubic meter melted):

No amount of material mentioned and reference to exploding gas undercuts reliability of using it. Like claiming a match is a

kiloton weapon based on the PEPCON explosion.

This isn't exactly blowing my skirt up thus far.

Oh and actual evidence for Gauss Guns? Wow, did it hurt actually bringing actual evidence in for once? Given your reluctance

to actually do that in every thread ever, I though you might have an allergy to it or something.

There is also the reductio argument thus: BattleMechs rendered conventional tanks of the day, which at worst were

similar to modern tanks of the day, completely obsolete.

Out of universe argument. Stick to the weapons themselves.

Show me a tank nimble enough to do judo

Why would you want to? Oh and I see that you were being a hypocrite when you claimed that 40K had short ranges based on HTH

events.

Overall, we expect the heat capacity to be fairly close to 1 J/gK at normal operating temperatures.

No proof given at all of course.

In general proportionate to mechanical damage values, to the point where they are worth talking about?

Except that you have nothing proving the connection between them. Heck, you didn't even try. You didn't show that the effect

matched the weapon stat in the slightest among other things.

For example, a gauss rifle penetrates something like 10 meters RHAe

Wow, "Something like". Very technical term backed up by, well, nothing. Where did

Lurching several meters sideways on a hill does not mean the attack is anywhere near the power of a gauss rifle.

First off, there was no hill. Secondly, you used a 100 ton mech getting staggered as evidence of Gauss gun power. A 60

ton tank being shoved sideways is a higher level event since it has more resistance to movement on the ground and there's no

stumbling effect.

And it should be noted that there is no way for modern armor to survive that.

No, IA states that it is because of the reduced recoil:

Which IA is that from? IA1 states in the flavor text on that it has better performance on the move than a standard Russ.

Furthermore, saying a Leman Russ can't fire on the move contradicts at least a dozen sources. Necropolis, Honour Guard, Death

or Glory, His Last Command, etc

All that quote does is establish that Conquerors do fire pretty well on the move.

Way to totally miss the comparison to the standard Leman Russ in both quotes.

The Imperial Guard bogs down. Imperial Armour Vol V describes years of trench warfare on a single static front:

You're leaving out any context:

Since its first construction it had always been known that the Citadel and star port on Vraks would be

vulnerable to an orbital assault. The defences had been deisgned to repulse just such an attack. Batteries of planetary

defencee lasers ringed them, maybe as many as a hundred operational guns. There was enough firepower on the surface of Vraks

to fight an entire fleet in low orbit. The Imperial Navy's battleship sand cruisers were hugely powerful starships, but no

ship can fight a planet. With batteries buried deep to withstand orbital bombardment, the ships would be at a massive

disadvantage in a straight fight. to land troops the ships would need to approach in low orbit and they would be vulenrable

as they manoeuvred into position to launc their landing ships. The landing ships themselves would be targeted, and a single

hit from a defence laser would tear a landing craft apart. Below the defence lasers was a network of high and low altitude

anti-aircraft defences that could engage any craft that got through. The conclusion drawn from the Logis' calculations was

that the risk of a direct attack was too great. The probability was high that a planetary assault would be repulsed with

great loss."

Within the Departmento Munitorum it is now believed that Vraks is an impregnable fortress. Its walls are

protected from orbital bombardment by void shield generators. It has an extensive curtain wall protecting it from direct

assault. It is surrounded by a large network of defence laser batteries, making an assault from orbit suicidal for any star

ship. These lasers can also be used against ground targets, and all approaches to the Citadel are covered by interlocking

fields of fire. Three defence rings run from miles out into the wastes. These protect the storage bunkers from raiders and

include trenches, defence lines, bunkers and strong points as well as pre-prepared artillery positions. The defence lines are

further protected by lines of razorwire, tank traps and thousands of minefields

Vraks was going to be such a bloody, attrition warfare style battle for the Guard that they had to turn to their attrition

warfare specialists, the Death Korps of Krieg. Not only are the Krieg crazy enough for it, but they're one of the only

regiments dedicated to it. The fact that even they got bogged down shows its a horrendously brutal war.

Hell, when the Dark Angels decided to help, albeit for selfish reasons because they're dicks, they lost over 200

battlebrothers in fighting behind enemy lines.

also refer you to the speed of the Imperial Guard's advance on Taros:

You are confusing rate of advance with vehicle speed. You're also leaving out all the information regarding battles, watching

for ambushes, air attacks, etc. They were only advancing 15km a day because the Tau were making it impossible to go any

faster.
For comparison: The US invasion of Iraq in 2003 only advanced at a rate of 35km a day on average and it was the fastest

invasion ever. Luckily, they didn't have to deal with a foe at the level of the Tau.

One hit.

You'll note its a Vanquisher, which I explicitly said had the best first round kill chances.

Lascannon blast goes straight through the turret armor of an Executioner variant Leman Russ.

Land Raider Lascannons are more powerful than their counterparts. Another internally inconsistent bit if you insisted on

using the non-canonical rules.

By all means, present such evidence.

For starters, the Chimera has a top speed of 70km\s and the stripped down Trojan has a top speed of 80km\s despite being less

than a 10th the weight. Furthermore, the Rhino series can perform at 100% on 50% power and can take additional weight with

ease.

Among other things such as high speed scissoring thunder runs by armor in Necropolis, cautious advances at a speed of at

least 50kph in Honour Guard and numerous other examples.

The AdMech treasures century after century reliability (literally), so them governing it more harshly than modern tanks makes

sense from their point of view. Its the age old battle between us and the mechs. The mechs never want you to do anything fun.

:p

As for the effect of overcharging, yeah it increases strain and wear on the engine and suspension. So does going fast or

doing hard manuevers in a modern tank. Hell, pretty much every moving part on a tank will fail eventually. I've had a drivers

hatch fail to open for me on the same day my CVC helmet mic gave out and another tank snapped a track plowing it several feet

into the ground during a sagger dril.

The AdMech is just overzealous about preventative measures. Its part of their character along with tech hoarding. Vehicle

crews just happen to be luckier than most and can actually work on their own stuff without much AdMech interference.

A relatively primitive version of the modern discarding-sabot round.

That's basically the exact definition of a modern Sabot.

Slow turning (relative to BattleMechs) is an inevitable consequence of having a top off-road speed of 21 kph. You're not

turning treads quickly

Turning speed\radius is not a direct function of road speed except for the fact that turning radius increases with speed.

A piece of steel no thicker than my finger, strengthened by radiation casting techniques and impregnated with a sheet

of woven diamond fibers, had stopped cold an armor-piercing shell

Remember: Its only modern conventional steel if its 40K.

The Rhino is usually constructed with plasteel... but can be constructed using conventional hardened steel.

Except for the fact that its all over the place as it mentions standard plasteel construction and you're basically just

quoting the same thing over and over again from the same source. I'm still compiling my stuff, but let me leave you with this

question: Why is it that you assume its modern RHA without any evidence? What evidence do you have that its modern steel? Why

does the steel based battletech armor get a pass from you but you automatically assume the worst for 40K, in defiance of all

other evidence? Modern steel can't withstand the kind of impact that would shove a 62 ton vehicle several meters sideways.

Hell, an Abrams can't even withstand that much energy by far. A mega IED is enough to utterly mission kill an Abrams, warp the hull beyond repair and transmit enough of the shock into the tank to break bones. The fact that we see none of this on a tank victim to far more energy is telling. The crew all survived with no serious injury and had the tank back at 100% in under an hour.

That's about all I have time for right now.

[Thanatos]

Actually, it doesn't even match up within an army. For example, infantry autocannons have the same stats save range as the long barrel quad guns on the Hydra, despite the Hydra using far more powerful cannons. You'll see that on all the weapons within a class. There's a wide range of weapons where they're given a universal stat despite their vast differences.

Ahh, but are not all of those autocannons more powerful than a heavy bolter and less powerful than a battle cannon - per salvo, anyway? That's all I'm asserting here.

Sorry about that, I was off by a single decimal place when looking at your response and thought you were saying single to double digit KJ. Which is part of why I requested you to not mix notation.

I will take this as agreement, then.

You used a naval gun? That's a bit dishonest when you say the Earthshaker has WW2 performance, since that implies WW2 field guns.

Naval guns were fielded in fixed emplacements as well; the Basilisk's 9m barrel does put it rather larger than most infantry-towed field guns.

I would hope so, its written by the same guy. However, we have multiple sources that contradict this. Necropolis has plunging Earthshaker fire well past 70km and Tactica Imperialis has 100km Earthshaker fire.

Exact quotes, please. The Imperial Armour books are quite recent (Vol V came out just last December) and, I would presume, were subject to at least as much editorial oversight as the novels. More specifically, they contain what amount to novellas of WH40k fiction within them; this material is not just "game mechanics window dressing," but also "fiction fluff."

It also means the force on the bullet and the barrel itself are being applied over a shorter distance; the Conqueror barrel is 2.49m (Imperial Armour) while the Abrams barrel, a sample modern tank barrel, is 9.77m.

Horrendously wrong on the Abrams barrel. The L44 is 5.28m and the L55 is 6.6m. The Abrams' M256 is the L44, so you're off by more than four meters.

I stand corrected.

Also incredibly wrong, its the weight of the gun not the length of the barrel that determines recoil velocity and force.

The mass of the recoiling assembly determines the recoil velocity of the assembly, which determines the energy required to stop it (force over distance).

The recoil force backwards on the recoiling assembly is the same as the forward force on the bullet, as is the total change in momentum. The muzzle energy of the gun is the force (dot) the distance traveled by the bullet.

Now, what you're talking about is the force of the gun on the tank, but these are generally proportionate, because gun mass is linearly proportionate to gun length in much the same manner.

Barrel length effects the dyamics of the round and adds additional weight as a side effect, reducing recoil. While we know the total weight of the M256, we don't know the weight of the

True; however, we do know that the Earthshaker, with its massive 9m barrel, is bigger than the tank guns; thus, it will have a better ratio of recoil energy to muzzle energy, and will have less recoil force for the same shell.

So if any of the tank guns fires an equivalent shell, it will have more recoil.

No your quote says that

Basilisks do not use overcharging, as the Chimera chassis is not considered stable enough, making shots wildly inaccurate.

Considering that the Earthshaker weighs almost as much as the chassis its on, its not exactly surprising.

Fired using the standard 5 charges, an enclosed Basilisk cannot use the larger charges 6 and 7, due the recoil restriction of the fighting compartment.

Recoil restriction of the fighting compartment, meaning that if it were more powerful, it would require more recoil distance than is available or more force than the chassis can handle. Any more recoil energy would be a problem.

Note that it doesn't say "Man sized". Note that it doesn't specify the size of the whole, note that it doesn't specify the building materials, note that it doesn't give us any comparison points at all.

Sure it does. It's a hole in the wall that marines rush through.

Again, wrong. Its weight not length that determines recoil force.

Length times force gives muzzle energy. I was talking about the force between the gun and bullet; you have been talking about the force between the gun and the tank. The case I described was basically the case where the entire tank is one large rigid recoiling assembly.

The muzzle energy of an M829A3 out of an L44 is 12MJ.

Almost precisely equal to the Earthshaker.

My calculations were that if lascannons could perform a feat I have never seen them perform, then they could have a yield of that much.

Again, where are you getting this from? You haven't clarified what you have used to initially come up with 2GJ.

I already gave three reasons.

We see no such collateral damage in the game

Stop using the game! How many times and in how many ways do I have to tell you that?

And when have you seen Lascannon impacts that have failed to live up to what you think weapons of that power should do?

Not secondary, total effects

Actually no, to flash burn or sear those not caught outside the beam requires high MJ range energy since you need to superheat the air to the point that it can cause searing or burning.

High MJ. Not gigajoule. If you have high MJ energy, you can start causing substantial collateral damage; with multiple gigajoules, it becomes unavoidable. I further present:

A medium-magnitude laser is discharged into a massive crystal that greatly amplifies the potency of the shot in a fraction of a second. This energy can be discharged in a focused beam capable of blasting through the thickest armour, or dispersed to slay entire squads of infantry.

A laser weapon similarly capable of piercing the "thickest armor" - but does not ordinarily threaten squads of infantry, unless fired on a special "dispersed" setting. It may be more or less powerful than the lascannon, but it is clearly also a laser weapon capable of piercing WH40k tank armor, and also clearly not more than the 2 gigajoule line I set earlier.

You can penetrate an Abrams with lighter weapons and a lot of luck if you aim at the right place on the hull. Examples of tanks being destroyed by Lascannon fire does not tell us its penetration or first "round" kill probablility. We know it can penetrate tank armor but we don't how well it does it. We have examples of tanks taking repeated Lascannon fire without being penetrated.

And we have examples with only a couple shots, which I have quoted previously, and we have the stated ability to penetrate.

I assume that lascannon barely pierce Land Raider armor; you need to hit at a good angle with little relative motion between you and the Land Raider. Adding relative motion, or tilting the angle, increases the area of armor you must penetrate.

For example, one in Honour Guard.

The disarmed Infardi machine was closing to less than forty metres now, and its hull-mounted lascannon began to spit bolts of blue light at Sirius' conqueror... With furious las-fire from the injured tank now splashing off the Wrath of Pardua's front casing, Sirus ordered his layer to address the other tank coming around the first.

As for the example from Inferno, it depends on how you define an hour of combat. An Abrams with a loader at the maximum allowed loading time can empty its ready racks in under two minutes and a good loader can get that down to a minute. However, maximum rate of properly ranged fire is limited by the fact that using the LRF that much in that space of time will burn it out, leaving you fucked. That's just the ready racks, you have to transfer rounds into them from the other ammo compartments after that. There are a ton of variables that can go into determining "combat time" and we don't know any off them.

We do have an example of vehicle Lascannon ammo capacity with the Lightning and Thunderbolt having 30 Lascannon shots across two packs or 15 shots per gun. This is thanks to them lacking the ability to charge their packs like a vehicle. So, if you assume that they use the same packs (since the Lascannons and their packs are to my knowledge the same as those mounted on a tank) that gives you 1.8GJ to 2.8GJ. 15 shots in one hour of "combat" is about right really since that's what a tank can expect to fire out of its main gun in an hour unless its in particularly heavy fighting.

However, it is important to remember that it is old fluff and a lot of the other values listed have changed.

And that's power consumption. 15 shots is probably on the low end, since that's the lowest shot capacity given for any lascannon units others have 20 or more. These are present in Imperial Armour Vol I-II, which are basically current techmanuals. The Vol I-V numbered series were published from 10/2003-12/2007, and ForgeWorld is still selling them on their website.

They don't use the same packs. The infantry lascannon pack is much larger than the Krieg's Hellgun powerpack as you can see by these comparitive photos.
Hellgun pack on the right. Krieg hellguns appear to be missing the generator found on Kasrkin hellguns.

And this is a good comparitive shot of a Lascannon pack.

Much, much larger.

Not actually that much. Note the lascannon troopers carry smaller backpacks. That lascannon power pack is no more than about double the size. This, when effective yield of las weapons seems to be at roughly the ratio of 2 megajoules for 19 megathules. We're still nowhere near justifying >2 GJ effect.

Ammo capacity on Lascannon packs is listed as being anywhere from 1-5 rounds.

Source?

Now, I have presented my case for lascannon being no more than 2 gigajoules in actual effect; you have expressed your concerns about it. Do you have any positive evidence to present regarding the yield of lascannons to establish them as being more than 2 gigajoules?

Yes, they're the second best tank killing weapon in 40K, the first being the Vanquisher. You should note that the Tiger Shark X10 uses much heavier railguns than a Hammerhead. They're pulled off off a Manta and are titan killer grade weapons.

I'm aware. I'm also aware the Tiger Shark is still only 25 tons.

No evidence of the glass being across the street given no description of the terrain.

Please review the quote. Cassie is looking through the front window at another house (the Aungs', not her family's) - the front of a house is the side facing the street. Ergo, the strike is across the street.

People on fire not surprising given that its a plasma weapon but no real evidence of any high firepower.

Actually, it is very real evidence of high firepower (as is instantly setting the entire front of the Aung house on fire), and the sort of incident we don't see in Warhammer, to my knowledge. The glass melting across the street is more impressive, though; when we factor in that, it's difficult to keep below a hundred gigajoules. If 100% of the energy is distributed radially, and 100% is absorbed by 4mm of 2.5 g/cc plate glass (both questionable underestimates), which gets 1000 J/g (just short of a proper liquification, but enough to soften it a lot), we have 10,000,000 J/m^2 on, if the distance is 10m (about right for the front yard of a house on the other side of an avenue), a 314 square meter sphere, or 30 gigajoules.

That's the first order of approximation. It adjusts upwards a little bit as we take other factors into account, such as energy wasted vaporizing/melting dirt and grass in the Aung's yard, heating of the air, et cetera.

No size given or depth of sand glassed. No evidence of glassing in the cubic meter range. Too subjective to be of use.

Size is enough to be easily visible from a high speed strafing fighter a good distance away - and also to shatter immediately as it cools. Ergo, most likely multiple cubic meters.

Disappearing is too vague to be used for to calculate effects.

Both incidents clearly killed two people each. Both do not establish a precise yield; it does establish collateral damage. The graphic vaporization in Close Quarters places the yield well above that necessary to vaporize a human, however, and melting kevlar at a distance does suggest ~ GJ range energy was released in the bug-zapper incident.

Medium laser (a few GJ required to match “daisy cutter” through inefficient thermal weapon; incident may be inspired by game-mechanical ability to clear a 15m radius area of wooded terrain using a medium laser in one 10 second turn.)

Statement conveniently ignores MG fire but not its effects. Utterly dishonest.

MG fire has limited effects, and is far less energetic. The medium laser clearly did most of the work.

Small laser (minimum several GJ per cubic meter melted):

No amount of material mentioned and reference to exploding gas undercuts reliability of using it. Like claiming a match is a kiloton weapon based on the PEPCON explosion.

The amount of molten material present is sufficient to cause a BattleMech to slip. If we're proportionately talking about something the size of a banana peel, it's more than a gigajoule.

Oh and actual evidence for Gauss Guns?

You just ignored a series of five quotes, which rather precisely established my claims.

One hypersonic slug missed wide, punching through a building behind the Hauptmann and leaving an impressive wound behind.

Hypersonic slug goes through a building of similar size to a BattleMech, i.e., a substantial office building of some sort.

The Gauss rifle used a series of magnets to accelerate a nickel-ferrous slug ten centimeters in diameter. The payload burst almost silently from the barrel, but the violent kickback rocked the Caesar back slightly.

The recoil I mentioned; also the caliber.

Recoil shook the cockpit as the 125-kilogram, magnetically accelerated projectile streaked toward its target, the snap of the sound barrier breaking the only evidence of its discharge.

Establishes the mass of the projectile.

The Gauss rifle uses a series of magnets to propel a projectile through the rifle barrel toward a target. While it requires a great deal of power to operate, this weapon generates very little heat and can achieve a muzzle velocity twice that of any conventional weapon.

Conventional guns of today almost reach 2,000 m/s. Could easily be 4,000 m/s for the GR.

Of course, not even an armored assault vest would withstand the impact of a Zeus sniper's round the size of Cassie's little finger traveling five times the speed of sound.

The Zeus sniper rifle is a conventional weapon. Minimum of Mach 10 velocity for the GR - 3,400 m/s.

Out of universe argument. Stick to the weapons themselves.

Argument in accordance with the principles stated above - one you did not challenge. Both WH40k and BT have our own past in common with their own. BT in particular is concerned with 20th century military technology in its fluff. Further, this is explicitly stated in BT material:

Although the technology level among the Successor States has fallen since the days of the Star League, it is generally accepted that weapons technology during the 31st century is still at or above the levels common in the late 20th/early 21st century.

Why would you want to? Oh and I see that you were being a hypocrite when you claimed that 40K had short ranges based on HTH events.

I stated we were unlikely to establish any real difference in effective range between the two. I have not yet, in this debate, been concerned with range.

No proof given at all of course.

Except the long list of specific heat capacities of materials (almost all of which increase with temperature), which is all the evidence that is needed to establish the ballpark beyond any reasonable doubt. Objection dismissed.

Except that you have nothing proving the connection between them. Heck, you didn't even try. You didn't show that the effect matched the weapon stat in the slightest among other things.

You are welcome to compare those incidents. I will go as far as to mention that standard armor has 16 points per ton. One half ton is therefore eight points, corresponding to one Inner Sphere large laser hit. You may be able to examine those incidents in that light; I trust that if you do, you will come to the conclusion that a large laser melting a half ton is precisely in line with game mechanics.

Wow, "Something like". Very technical term backed up by, well, nothing. Where did

I recommend you read Nathan Okun's treatise on armor penetration. In general, all armors are pretty "soft" at hypersonic velocities, and so the best approximation to use is k~1, penetration proportionate to density of kinetic energy.

This was a solid steel penetrator; at a final velocity of ~1500 m/s, the 3.6 kg 41mm caliber penetrator would penetrate 245mm of steel. The 125 kg 100mm caliber 3400-4000 m/s penetrator will penetrate 7-10m of steel.

First off, there was no hill.

Connor McLeod says otherwise in discussing the incident.

Secondly, you used a 100 ton mech getting staggered as evidence of Gauss gun power. A 60 ton tank being shoved sideways is a higher level event since it has more resistance to movement on the ground and there's no stumbling effect.

No "stumbling effect" means a shorter distance. Sideways also means on the axis of least resistance for the treads vs multi-meganewton legs, hips, etc. We can account for an additional two orders of magnitude in the BattleMech example through increased force of resistance and increased distance that force is applied over.

And it should be noted that there is no way for modern armor to survive that.

We already have a measure of the momentum associated with the shells themselves, and the logical conclusion is that the lurching is not from the kinetic impact of the shell, but from the much more powerful high explosives it contains. Honour Guard is the same source that gives such a high bursting charge for the Earthshaker.

Which IA is that from? IA1 states in the flavor text on that it has better performance on the move than a standard Russ.

The first one (not Volume I, the older one just called "Imperial Armour"). It says reduced recoil is the reason why the accuracy is better on the move, exactly as quoted.

Furthermore, saying a Leman Russ can't fire on the move contradicts at least a dozen sources. Necropolis, Honour Guard, Death or Glory, His Last Command, etc

It's not that it can't fire on the move; it's that it isn't especially good at it.

Way to totally miss the comparison to the standard Leman Russ in both quotes.

Namely, "Conqueror much better at this."

You're leaving out any context:

Since its first construction it had always been known that the Citadel and star port on Vraks would be vulnerable to an orbital assault. The defences had been deisgned to repulse just such an attack. Batteries of planetary defencee lasers ringed them, maybe as many as a hundred operational guns. There was enough firepower on the surface of Vraks to fight an entire fleet in low orbit. The Imperial Navy's battleship sand cruisers were hugely powerful starships, but no ship can fight a planet. With batteries buried deep to withstand orbital bombardment, the ships would be at a massive disadvantage in a straight fight. to land troops the ships would need to approach in low orbit and they would be vulenrable as they manoeuvred into position to launc their landing ships. The landing ships themselves would be targeted, and a single hit from a defence laser would tear a landing craft apart. Below the defence lasers was a network of high and low altitude anti-aircraft defences that could engage any craft that got through. The conclusion drawn from the Logis' calculations was that the risk of a direct attack was too great. The probability was high that a planetary assault would be repulsed with great loss."

Within the Departmento Munitorum it is now believed that Vraks is an impregnable fortress. Its walls are protected from orbital bombardment by void shield generators. It has an extensive curtain wall protecting it from direct assault. It is surrounded by a large network of defence laser batteries, making an assault from orbit suicidal for any star ship. These lasers can also be used against ground targets, and all approaches to the Citadel are covered by interlocking fields of fire. Three defence rings run from miles out into the wastes. These protect the storage bunkers from raiders and include trenches, defence lines, bunkers and strong points as well as pre-prepared artillery positions. The defence lines are further protected by lines of razorwire, tank traps and thousands of minefields

Vraks was going to be such a bloody, attrition warfare style battle for the Guard that they had to turn to their attrition warfare specialists, the Death Korps of Krieg. Not only are the Krieg crazy enough for it, but they're one of the only regiments dedicated to it. The fact that even they got bogged down shows its a horrendously brutal war.

Hell, when the Dark Angels decided to help, albeit for selfish reasons because they're dicks, they lost over 200 battlebrothers in fighting behind enemy lines.

The outer trenches were not protected by shields. Nor is the orbital fire particularly accurate:

On occasion those same ships may be called upon to make more limited strikes in the hopes of destroying nests of corruption or extremely powerful adversaries. This is often extremely dangerous for friendly forces in the area as the strike is far from pinpoint accurate.

Nor is it simply orbital fire which led to trench warfare being considered obsolete.

You are confusing rate of advance with vehicle speed. You're also leaving out all the information regarding battles, watching for ambushes, air attacks, etc. They were only advancing 15km a day because the Tau were making it impossible to go any faster.
For comparison: The US invasion of Iraq in 2003 only advanced at a rate of 35km a day on average and it was the fastest invasion ever. Luckily, they didn't have to deal with a foe at the level of the Tau.

I'm not confusing anything. That's well over twice as fast against an enemy that's not interested in standing and fighting, simply harassing on the move. We're not talking about stopping and fighting battles; we're talking about raids, snipers, and the occasional fleeting ambush. The Imperial Guard does not really do mobility very well; the Tau raids were why they slowed so much from the planned pace of 20 km/day, which is still much slower than the US invasion of Iraq. A Roman legion might manage that march, although they weren't towing as much artillery.

You'll note its a Vanquisher, which I explicitly said had the best first round kill chances.

And which I explicitly note uses a kinetic subcaliber round with penetration not terribly superior to that of modern tank penetrators.

Land Raider Lascannons are more powerful than their counterparts. Another internally inconsistent bit if you insisted on using the non-canonical rules.

I'm going to challenge that claim and demand you produce evidence. I have counter-evidence already:

Using the Long Fang lascannons they created the first Annihilators, which lead the Space Wolves break out, cutting a swathe through the enemy tanks and Dreadnoughts.

The original tank-killing Annihilators were built using the Wolves' Space-Marine portable lascannon.

For starters, the Chimera has a top speed of 70km\s and the stripped down Trojan has a top speed of 80km\s despite being less than a 10th the weight. Furthermore, the Rhino series can perform at 100% on 50% power and can take additional weight with ease.

Among other things such as high speed scissoring thunder runs by armor in Necropolis, cautious advances at a speed of at least 50kph in Honour Guard and numerous other examples.

Quotes please?

The AdMech treasures century after century reliability (literally), so them governing it more harshly than modern tanks makes sense from their point of view. Its the age old battle between us and the mechs. The mechs never want you to do anything fun.

:p

As for the effect of overcharging, yeah it increases strain and wear on the engine and suspension. So does going fast or doing hard manuevers in a modern tank. Hell, pretty much every moving part on a tank will fail eventually. I've had a drivers hatch fail to open for me on the same day my CVC helmet mic gave out and another tank snapped a track plowing it several feet into the ground during a sagger dril.

The AdMech is just overzealous about preventative measures. Its part of their character along with tech hoarding. Vehicle crews just happen to be luckier than most and can actually work on their own stuff without much AdMech interference.

That, and treads will sometimes fly off at high speeds, depending on how they're constructed. However, they still don't have terribly much horsepower to play around with, and the speed gap is enormous.

That's basically the exact definition of a modern Sabot.

Third-caliber sabots were typical of the 1960s-1970s. Modern discarding-sabot rounds tend to be narrower.

Turning speed\radius is not a direct function of road speed except for the fact that turning radius increases with speed.

Actually, it is. The quickest you can turn - period - is by spinning treads in opposite directions. How fast you can do that is dictated by how fast you can turn the treads and how much power you have - both are limiting factors.

A piece of steel no thicker than my finger, strengthened by radiation casting techniques and impregnated with a sheet of woven diamond fibers, had stopped cold an armor-piercing shell

Remember: Its only modern conventional steel if its 40K.

This is pretty clearly technobabble-reinforced steel. It's compared with conventional steel.

Except for the fact that its all over the place as it mentions standard plasteel construction and you're basically just quoting the same thing over and over again from the same source. I'm still compiling my stuff, but let me leave you with this question: Why is it that you assume its modern RHA without any evidence? What evidence do you have that its modern steel? Why does the steel based battletech armor get a pass from you but you automatically assume the worst for 40K, in defiance of all other evidence? Modern steel can't withstand the kind of impact that would shove a 62 ton vehicle several meters sideways.

BT armor is described as several layers, each of which seems to be nanostructured. That's not conventional steel. Plasteel is not conventional steel either, although its performance is closer.

That quote does differentiate between conventional hardened steel and plasteel, and it is from a source that provides equivalences in conventional steel armor. Nor am I sure that the "conventional steel" is precisely equivalent to modern RHA (although given the authors, it would make sense); but it will be not terribly far away.

Then there's impact angle to consider. If you hit a Land Raider with 300mm "conventional hardened steel" equivalent, say, to 400mm RHA at a 60 degree angle, you're trying to penetrate the equivalent of 800mm RHA.

Hell, an Abrams can't even withstand that much energy by far. A mega IED is enough to utterly mission kill an Abrams, warp the hull beyond repair and transmit enough of the shock into the tank to break bones. The fact that we see none of this on a tank victim to far more energy is telling. The crew all survived with no serious injury and had the tank back at 100% in under an hour.

That's about all I have time for right now.

I would say it is pretty impressive how shock resistant WH40K vehicles are. WH40K weapons do have substantial explosive effects. Resistance to KE penetrators and thickness of armor they can penetrate with their cannon, though, are not numbered among the advantages of WH40K tanks over modern tanks.

[Thanatos]

Grr, can a mod fix all those stupid line breaks? For some reason copying and pasting it does that.

[harbringer]

I notice he has completely stayed away from an actual discussion on what the Com Guard did (which in BT terms was impressive but in 40k terms the norm for marines) which mostly consisted of using ECM ECCM - and so on - to fool sensors with fake towns hills and so on to allow effective harrasment and ambush. I am not sure he can prove that this would block auspex and or how they would deal with guard psykers... unless he proposes the warp is unobtainable for the battle. Long range fire that the clans found they couldnt counter (equipment being dis-honourable) and the somewhat long time frame for preparation. Largely this is really hard for BT to win ... not that it was designed to in the first place.

[PainRack]

I haven't looked a production stats in ages, so I'll concede the Victor, but not their overall weight class. It's firmly established in cannon that their production ability and weights of their 'mechs was disproportionately light.

The sad shape I was speaking of was the first Three Succession Wars when Marik and the Federated Suns beat the ever living shit out of them (more the Second and Third) and absorbed huge chunks of territory. They were still a viable power, but lacking in strategic depth, industrial strength, and the heavy designs that do well at defensive work (although the Vindicator is a good slugfest 'mech for a medium and no one sane disses the Hunchback). The Fourth Succession War moved them from being the weakest Successor State to minor state that had difficulty repelling an invasion from the Periphery.

Ah. I see my mistake. Thank you.


Errr, with regards to Thanatos, there's a problem with using Battletechnology and MechQuarterly articles. They occupy a dodgy space in canon. Originally, FASA considered the canon to be the novels, then the game and lastly, fluff, with fan fluff in Battletechnology being constantly rewritten. Later, it was game fluff> all. More critically is the rate at which Battletechnology and MechQuarterly articles kept being rewritten over by other canon rules and fluff.

One should note the hypersonic Mach 5 Gauss speed came from such a source which is contradicted by every other major canon source other than hypersonic quotes from the novels and AT2 calcs..

I notice he has completely stayed away from an actual discussion on what the Com Guard did (which in BT terms was impressive but in 40k terms the norm for marines) which mostly consisted of using ECM ECCM - and so on - to fool sensors with fake towns hills and so on to allow effective harrasment and ambush. I am not sure he can prove that this would block auspex and or how they would deal with guard psykers... unless he proposes the warp is unobtainable for the battle. Long range fire that the clans found they couldnt counter (equipment being dis-honourable) and the somewhat long time frame for preparation. Largely this is really hard for BT to win ... not that it was designed to in the first place.

Errr......... what they did on Tukayid is contradictory in the novels, sourcebooks and scenario pack. They either provided false coordinates and built a false town, or they moved the entire populace away and rebuilt the town to suit their needs.

What they actually did here was to simply build bunkers and other positions in which Comstar forces could hide underground and then redeploy, surprising Falcon forces who did not expect such a tactic.

As for the rest of your statements........ The Clans have NO qualms with long range fire. The issue is with non honourable COMBAT. Its entirely possible for one Clan mech to be fighting 3 targets at the same time, what is dishonourable would be for 2 clan mechs to be fighting 1 target UNLESS the batchall calls for it.

[Hotfoot]

This entire thread is like flogging the aborted fetus of a horse into a pulp, but doing so in a proper and dignified fashion to the point where I expect you to be taking a tea break before having a properly dressed call girl fellate you and drizzle the results into a cup, which you then gingerly feed to the smear you've been spreading on the ground before going back to whipping it beyond any ability for science to tell what its component molecules once were.

[Thanatos]

They either provided false coordinates and built a false town, or they moved the entire populace away and rebuilt the town to suit their needs.

So they got their plan from Blazing Saddles?

[CaptainChewbacca]

They either provided false coordinates and built a false town, or they moved the entire populace away and rebuilt the town to suit their needs.

So they got their plan from Blazing Saddles?

They also got a black sherrif.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh, I love this:

First off, there was no hill.

Connor McLeod says otherwise in discussing the incident.

IIRC from Honour Guard the terrain was basically "flat" (forest close to a town cleared of trees for about a kilometer's distance.) It was a close range shot (few tens of meters) on ground that inclined slightly downwards from where the Conqueror was (the enemy tank which caused the Conqueror to lurch would be firing upwards.)

The incline probably wasn't significant, though - a laser-cannon armed tank destroyer was able to fire past the Conqueror and destroy the enemy tank very shortly after and the incident is described as bein gnearly parallel IIRC.

Can someone please explain to me what's wrong with that? Evidently Spock doesnt think I can be trusted to comprehend my own statements anymore, so I clearly need someone like him to tell me what I really mean. (No wonder I need his incisive mind helping me to "truly" understand how deeply I've exaggerated 40K!

[harbringer]

PainRack : pretty much my point - it is dishonerable to fire blindly back at an arty position with arty (since nothing else will have the ability) unless it is specifically in the batchall also the hells horses are the only ones that seem to take complete combined arms seriously apart from the wolves of selected colours.

Otherwise the other clans even go so far as to relegate such equipment to freebirth and second string units. If your willing to risk your personal honour to pilot and or operate such equipment for the good of the clan you might earn a mention in reports ...

[Dark Hellion]

I must say one thing about Spocky there. He has managed to accomplish the impossible and get Painrack to argue against Btech and for 40K. I think we should try to get spock a position in the RNC, talking about the evils of socialized healthcare. Think of the good we can do!

[PainRack]

PainRack : pretty much my point - it is dishonerable to fire blindly back at an arty position with arty (since nothing else will have the ability) unless it is specifically in the batchall also the hells horses are the only ones that seem to take complete combined arms seriously apart from the wolves of selected colours.

Otherwise the other clans even go so far as to relegate such equipment to freebirth and second string units. If your willing to risk your personal honour to pilot and or operate such equipment for the good of the clan you might earn a mention in reports ...

And so I find myself repeating, Von Strang World, Jade Falcon use of artillery and other combined arms such as armoured infantry to break the series of fortifications. And this isn't the only time where such units are used. Ghost Bears, Wolves.............

Yes. The Naga isn't a posting liked by Clan mechwarriors, but that's due to the nature of its mission. SUPPORT and the lack of glory inherent. Its like arguing that people dislike being in the PBI, thus, infantry are devalued by the modern military.