Relocating the Dead

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tim31
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Relocating the Dead

Post by tim31 »

I couldn't get the investigative article that inspired this train of thought yesterday, but this is a summary:
Melbourne University says living costs for students are so high, hundreds are now considered homeless.

Its survey estimates 400 students are forced to find temporary accommodation at friends or relatives homes because they can not afford rising rent costs.

It says some students were even "hot-bedding" or using the same bed to sleep in shifts.

The President of the National Union of Students, Angus McFarland, says the Federal Government needs to increase living support for tertiary students.

"Your degree costs thousands and thousands of dollars," he said.

"If you have to work the whole time just to struggle to live and can't, you know, complete your assignments and you end up falling behind or failing, then you're not getting your money's worth.

Mr McFarland, says that the current Youth Allowance scheme is out of reach for those who need it most.

He says to qualify, students' parents must earn less than a combined $39,000 or students must prove their independence by earning $18,525 or more within 18 months of leaving school.

"It is nearly impossible to access any government support," Mr McFarland said.

"If you can earn that amount of money independently then why would you need income support?"

Mr McFarland says students are burdened by rising housing costs, with the majority of students paying between $160.00 and $200.00 each week.

The National Union of Students says the government should reduce the age at which someone is considered independent, increase the parental income threshold and increase the amount offered to students

The Federal Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner has refused to says any increase in government spending could add to the living costs that students are facing.

"The trade-offs that we have to always look at are, if you are increasing spending, whether that is just indirectly going to push up prices and create a dog chasing its tail phenomenon."
My partner is doing a PhD through Melbourne Uni, though at this stage by distance. According to her supervisor, Melbourne Uni does not lack funds for building student accomodations; it is simply that they can't aquire property nearby. It occured to me that just north of the campus there is an area of prime real estate roughly the same size as the campus itself. I refer to the 43 hectare Melbourne General Cemetery.

No, it would never happen, but is it so ludicrous to suggest it? I know that the issue of the space that dead people take up has been aired before, so I'd like to hear thoughts on exhuming and relocating thousands of bodies in order to make life easier for a bunch of tertiary students. This doesn't have to apply specifically to Melbourne, but that's the example I'm using.

Problems? Manifold. First, people aren't going to like it. Even if they don't have anyone interred there, the idea of digging up bodies of People Like Us that died in respectable circumstances. Further, by relocating these graves outside of the city, people might have to travel up to fifty kilometres further than they had previously. It is also worth noting that three Australian prime ministers have graves there(well, two, they never found the body of the third), as well as a host of prominent figures from Australian history. It is not entirely removed from the applying the same concept to Arlington, and I can only image the incandescent outrage that would cause. The final problem that I see with the idea is that if we reclaim cemeteries for urban development, why stop there? Next on the list will be parks, and without a little bit of green here and there, cities would be unbearably shit.

Please discuss all and any points I've raised and the ones I haven't.
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Re: Relocating the Dead

Post by Junghalli »

tim31 wrote:No, it would never happen, but is it so ludicrous to suggest it? I know that the issue of the space that dead people take up has been aired before, so I'd like to hear thoughts on exhuming and relocating thousands of bodies in order to make life easier for a bunch of tertiary students. This doesn't have to apply specifically to Melbourne, but that's the example I'm using.
In principle I don't see anything wrong with it. The dead people probably aren't going to care, and the inconvenience of people having to drive a little further to go to visit the graves of dead loved ones is probably less than the inconvenience to the students.
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Post by Bounty »

the inconvenience of people having to drive a little further
I wouldn't call fifty kilometres "a little further".

Frankly I'd be surprised if it'd be cheaper and/or easier to buy and re-purpose a graveyard than it would be to buy regular lots. Yes, it's open space and yes, the current occupants aren't enjoying it much - apart from, you know, the hundreds who visit it to grieve and remember their loved ones - but I can't imagine that's the only reason why it's not being developed. What's the policy on grave ownership? Who needs to be bought out to move the corpses? What will it cost to set up the new cemetery? Which politician is suicidal enough to sell a graveyard to college kids? I'd see this answered before I'd support a "oh they're dead, call in the bulldozers" policy, because the whole idea reeks of not being thought through.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

New Orleans relocated a cemetary once in the early 60s. The Girod St. Cemetary on the corner of Girod and Poydras streets had stood disused for years and was overgrown with weeds. The city needed the land and no burials had taken place there for as long as anyone could remember. So, the Church deconsecrated the site, the bodies were removed and reinterred in the new Hope Mausoleum near where the cemetaries are clustered around Canal at City Park.

And then Dave Dixon built the Superdome on top of the old boneyard.
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Post by tim31 »

Which is exactly why I put the question to the forum. It's a thought exercise.

I personally don't support the notion; I think of cemeteries as parks with more sentiment, and I've already expressed my view on parks in metro areas. What I'm trying to get is some discourse on the extent to which we might go for that all-important peice of urban real estate.
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Post by tim31 »

GHETTO: My last was a reply to Bounty.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

tim31 wrote:Which is exactly why I put the question to the forum. It's a thought exercise.

I personally don't support the notion; I think of cemeteries as parks with more sentiment, and I've already expressed my view on parks in metro areas. What I'm trying to get is some discourse on the extent to which we might go for that all-important peice of urban real estate.
You have to understand that I come from a city where the people live cheek-by-jowl with the dead, so for an Orleanian, a cemetary is just another part of the neighbourhood. We take care of our dead, and the city has long had a semiprivate initiative to preserve and maintain the cemetaries not only because of their primary function but also as historic landmarks. But what was done with Girod was entirely appropriate, as not only had no burials taken place there for decades, the site had gotten so overgrown that it was a haven for rats of the two- and four-legged varieties.

The way the city and the diocese handled the affair showed proper respect for the religious sensibilities of the city population and involved a practical land-swap deal for a faciliity taking up less of a footprint. There are times when such action does serve the greater good for the city's living population, and despite custom the needs of the living really do have to come first, in the end.
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Post by Themightytom »

I remember reading an article about building OVER graveyards and starting buildings a few levels up so the graves all remain where they are and people can still visit them indoors.
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Post by Molyneux »

tim31 wrote:Which is exactly why I put the question to the forum. It's a thought exercise.

I personally don't support the notion; I think of cemeteries as parks with more sentiment, and I've already expressed my view on parks in metro areas. What I'm trying to get is some discourse on the extent to which we might go for that all-important peice of urban real estate.
Wait a second. What's your view on parks in metro areas?
As for relocating dead folks - I'd probably say that the needs of the living outweigh the needs of the dead (or the one).
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Post by Covenant »

In defense of parks, the amount of land they take up is of less value than the amount of revenue they can generate (in the case of a park that hosts a lot of things) or the quality of life benefit of the people living in or around the city. In a place like Chicago here there's plenty of parks along Michigan Avenue, which would be prime real estate, but there's also no shortage of places to buy elsewhere in the city. If you want space you can either rent floors of an existing building, build upwards, or buy a piece of land that's a few blocks away from the super-dense corporate center. There's really no reason to cannibalize park space just to create more parking space or a few shoddy 4 story offices. You gotta do a bit of quality control with your use of space.
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Post by Kanastrous »

Two of Syracuse University's residence halls are built on land reclaimed from the adjacent Oakwood Cemetery (which, by the way, is one of the most beautiful old cemeteries in New York, with some of the best 19th-century Gothic funerary architecture around).
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Paris completely removed numerous cemeteries in the 19th century. Some had bodies buried in layers 7-8 deep and the methane gas buildups actually caused explosions blowing corpses in the air…. So over a number of years they totally emptied them out, and stacked all the surviving bones (sorted by type of bone!) in underground catacombs, leftovers from quarrying, all under the city.
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Post by tim31 »

So while there's precedent for this, it's unlikely in the present day, unless there's some sort of hazard. And I'll bet the parisian graveyards contained no nobility.
Molyneux wrote:Wait a second. What's your view on parks in metro areas?
As for relocating dead folks - I'd probably say that the needs of the living outweigh the needs of the dead (or the one).
To quote my OP,
without a little bit of green here and there, cities would be unbearably shit.
lol, opsec doesn't apply to fanfiction. -Aaron

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Post by Molyneux »

tim31 wrote:So while there's precedent for this, it's unlikely in the present day, unless there's some sort of hazard. And I'll bet the parisian graveyards contained no nobility.
Molyneux wrote:Wait a second. What's your view on parks in metro areas?
As for relocating dead folks - I'd probably say that the needs of the living outweigh the needs of the dead (or the one).
To quote my OP,
without a little bit of green here and there, cities would be unbearably shit.
Er...sorry. Didn't see that...I really need to read more carefully.
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