Trouble in South Ossetia escalates

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Actually, both positions are wrong. The Straits are not true territorial waters; they are instead semi-international waters governed by the Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Turkish Straits. This regime is why Russian carriers are called cruisers--because the regime bans the passage of carriers through the straits. The regime however only regulated (and permitted, though limited, the movement of foreign warships through the straits WITHOUT Turkish permission) commissioned warships and civilian vessels. Naval Auxiliaries and armed merchant vessels are a gray area never explicitly covered in the treaty, and therefore the Turkish government during WW2 used this justification to ban the passage of Axis auxiliary ships through the Straits.

That same precedent was used to ban USNS Comfort from traversing the Straits. We are now sending military vessels because the Turks cannot legally stop them. So while Pablo's argument was wrong in many facts, he got the gist of one point right--trying to send Comfort was pure propaganda on the part of the Bush administration, trying to force the Turks to side with us. The Bushies intentionally chose a ship from the one type (non-commissioned naval auxiliaries) that the Turks could legally ban from passing through the straits as the one to send, in an effort to force the Turks into alignment with American policy. Now that the ploy has failed, real commissioned warships are being sent since the Turks cannot refuse them passage through the Straits.

[Lonestar]

So what did you say about "hospital ships" again?

USS McFaul is and some other battleships soon will be travelling to the Black Sea, as I see, and doing it through the Bosphoros.

The McFuckup?

Then I guess the Bush Administration isn't taking it too seriously then...

[Pablo Sanchez]

So Pablo, do you actually understand the difference between a USNS vessel and USS vessel? Or are you intentionally being stupid?

I said it was a warship? Where? I think I called it a "military vessel" or a vessel operated by the US military, and if I used a legalistic term inaccurately then I apologize. The Comfort is a non-commissioned, non-combatant vessel, certainly, but as you were so quick to point out, it's handily designated with the abbreviation USNS, which allows us to quickly and efficiently note that it is not a civilian ship at all but rather an official auxiliary to the US Navy, which I believe is still a military outfit these days.

As far as I knew the distinction between the USNS and USS was legally meaningless in this case. Marina has corrected me to the effect that all USNS vessels can be turned away from the Straits and only some USS vessels can be.

That same precedent was used to ban USNS Comfort from traversing the Straits. We are now sending military vessels because the Turks cannot legally stop them. So while Pablo's argument was wrong in many facts,

Okay, my bad then, I was not familiar with this legal distinction.

This situation being that the US is the big bad guy and should have sent a civilian ship in, instead of a civilian ship like they did?

The Comfort isn't a civilian ship, it's owned, operated, and at the command of a part of the United States Navy during peacetime. If you don't see the difference between something like that and generic civil shipping then I'm afraid I really can't help you.

Oh good, when you can't actually defend your nonexistent point, just throw in some bullshit.

I was registering my disbelief that the onus was on me to come up with an alternate means of intervention, when the option that you apparently preferred (send the USNS Comfort) had already failed in real life and was destined to fail from the outset.

I was wrong about the particulars, as Marina pointed out, but my overall point is still correct: the USNS Comfort was never going to be allowed through the straits by Turkey, unless the Turks magically decided to completely reverse course and hew to US policy in defiance of their own interests, and the people who made the decision to send the Comfort knew this, so sending it was effectively the same as doing nothing at all.

So in answer to your question of what the US should have sent--gee, I don't know, something that could've worked?

[Ender]

So Pablo, do you actually understand the difference between a USNS vessel and USS vessel? Or are you intentionally being stupid?

I said it was a warship? Where? I think I called it a "military vessel" or a vessel operated by the US military, and if I used a legalistic term inaccurately then I apologize.

How many times do we have to tell you it is not operated by the military before it sinks in? Just give me a number, I can copy-paste it in my next post.

The Comfort is a non-commissioned, non-combatant vessel, certainly, but as you were so quick to point out, it's handily designated with the abbreviation USNS, which allows us to quickly and efficiently note that it is not a civilian ship at all but rather an official auxiliary to the US Navy, which I believe is still a military outfit these days.

As a USNS ship it is part of the Military Sealift Command, which is part of the United States Merchant Marines during peacetime.

As far as I knew the distinction between the USNS and USS was legally meaningless in this case. Marina has corrected me to the effect that all USNS vessels can be turned away from the Straits and only some USS vessels can be.

Yes, and the reason for that is the dual hatting based off the conditions at the time.

The Comfort isn't a civilian ship, it's owned, operated, and at the command of a part of the United States Navy during peacetime.

It is civilian operated and falls under USN command only during a time of war. During peacetime USNS ships and ships of the federal fleet are part of the MSC. The MSC is an arm of the navy, but only in the sense that the US Marines are. MSC has had its own independent type commander since 2005. I don't think it is possible for you to be more wrong on this topic.

If you don't see the difference between something like that and generic civil shipping then I'm afraid I really can't help you.

By all means, continue to lecture the two United States sailors about the differences in the fleet. Clearly we don't know what the fuck we are talking about when we keep telling you you are wrong.

I was registering my disbelief that the onus was on me to come up with an alternate means of intervention, when the option that you apparently preferred (send the USNS Comfort) had already failed in real life and was destined to fail from the outset.

I was wrong about the particulars, as Marina pointed out, but my overall point is still correct: the USNS Comfort was never going to be allowed through the straits by Turkey, unless the Turks magically decided to completely reverse course and hew to US policy in defiance of their own interests, and the people who made the decision to send the Comfort knew this, so sending it was effectively the same as doing nothing at all.

So in answer to your question of what the US should have sent--gee, I don't know, something that could've worked?

Yes, how dare they try and send a civilian operated ship that is the most optimal for this mission and can only be blocked by a loophole that was invoked 60+ years ago. MSC didn't even exist then; I find it highly doubtful this was a calculated move and more likely a detail no one considered.

Its has been made pretty fucking clear that both you and Shroom have no idea what you are talking about, Shroom at least had the good grace to admit his error and recant. You, finding yourself in a hole, have evidently decided to bust out a shovel and keep digging.

[Pablo Sanchez]

It is civilian operated and falls under USN command only during a time of war. During peacetime USNS ships and ships of the federal fleet are part of the MSC. The MSC is an arm of the navy, but only in the sense that the US Marines are. MSC has had its own independent type commander since 2005. I don't think it is possible for you to be more wrong on this topic.

If this is the case then whence does Turkey derive the firm legal authority to deny the Comfort access to the Straits, while merchant vessels under the American flag go sailing gaily past on missions of commerce?

Its has been made pretty fucking clear that both you and Shroom have no idea what you are talking about, Shroom at least had the good grace to admit his error and recant. You, finding yourself in a hole, have evidently decided to bust out a shovel and keep digging.

You know what, you're right, at this point I'm just continuing to argue for the sake of it, so I give up.

[[R_H]]

Russia aims to keep control of Georgian port city

POTI, Georgia - Thousands of Georgians demanded that Russian troops leave the outskirts of this strategic Black Sea port on Saturday and took to the streets in protest, while a top Russian general said his country's forces would keep patrolling the area.

The comments by deputy head of the general staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, reported by Russian news agencies, showed that despite protests from the United States, France and Britain, Russia was confident enough to occupy whatever part of Georgia it deemed necessary.

"Russian military: You are not a liberating military, you are an occupying force!" one man shouted at the Poti protest. Banners read "Say No to War" and "Russia go home."

On Friday, Russia said it had pulled back forces from Georgia in accordance with a EU-brokered cease-fire agreement.

"There are very specific requirements for Russian withdrawal. Putting up permanent facilities and checkpoints are inconsistent with the agreement. We are in contact with the various parties to obtain clarification," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said he had pressed Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during a phone conversation Saturday to quickly remove Russian troops from an axis between the Georgian towns of Poti and Senaki.

Russia's pullback on Friday came two weeks to the day after thousands of Russian soldiers roared into the former Soviet republic following an assault by Georgian forces on the separatist region of South Ossetia. The fighting left hundreds dead and nearly 160,000 people homeless.

It also has deeply strained relations between Moscow and the West. Russia has frozen its military cooperation with NATO, Moscow's Cold War foe, underscoring a growing division in Europe.

On Saturday, residents of the strategic central city of Gori began returning. Chaotic crowds of people and cars were jammed outside the city as Georgian police tried to control the mass return by setting up makeshift checkpoints.

Those who were let through came back to find a city battered by bombs, suffering from food shortages and gripped by anguish.

Surman Kekashvili, 37, stayed in Gori, taking shelter in a basement after his apartment was destroyed by a Russian bomb. Several days ago, he tried to bury three relatives killed by the bomb, placing what body parts he could find in a shallow grave covered by a burnt log, a rock and a piece of scrap metal.

"I took only a foot and some of a torso. I could not get the other bodies out," he said.

His next-door neighbor, Frosia Dzadiashvili, found most of her apartment destroyed, leaving only a room the size of a broom closet to stay in.

"I have nothing. My neighbors feed me if they have food to share," the 70-year-old woman said.

The Russian tanks and troops are now gone from Gori — but other Russian troops are just up the road at a new Russian checkpoint. On Saturday afternoon, several thousand protesters waving Georgian flags approached the Russian position on the outskirts of Gori. Some soldiers came out of their trenches, but there was no clash.

Russian troops also held positions in trenches they had dug near a bridge that provides the only access to Poti. Tanks and armored personnel carriers were parked nearby. Russian troops hoisted both Russian flags and the flag of the Commonwealth of Independent States, or CIS, the union of former Soviet republics that Georgia recently announced it had left.

Emotions ran high as protesters approached a Russian position, but direct confrontation was avoided.

"They have the CIS flag, and that flag is not our Georgian flag," said protester Sulkhan Tolordava. "Georgia is not a member of this organization, so the troops must leave very quickly."

Russia interprets the cease-fire accord as allowing it to keep a substantial military presence in Georgia because of earlier peacekeeping agreements that ended fighting in the separatist areas of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in the 1990s.

But even though Poti is completely outside the buffer zone for Abkhazia, Nogovitsyn said Russian troops are not leaving and will patrol the city.

"Poti is not in the security zone, but that doesn't mean that we will sit behind the fence and watch as they drive around in Hummers," Nogovitsyn said, making an acid reference to four U.S. Humvees the Russians seized in Poti this week. The vehicles were used in previous joint U.S.-Georgian military exercises.

Russian forces also set up a checkpoint near Senaki, the home of a major military base in western Georgia that Georgian troops retook on Saturday. AP video footage of the base Saturday showed it had been heavily looted.

And in South Ossetia, Russian troops erected 18 peacekeeping posts in the "security zone" and planned to build another 18 peacekeeping posts around Abkhazia. A total of 2,600 heavily armed troops the Russians call peacekeepers will be deployed in those regions.

Russia, Georgia and the West are certain to continue the diplomatic struggle over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The Russian parliament was expected to discuss recognizing the independence of the separatist regions Monday.

In some devastated Georgian towns, the only visitors Saturday were looters, arriving in trucks and cars to take whatever they could find.

In the village of Kekhvi, the ethnic Georgian homes had been burned. An AP reporter saw Ossetian men hauling away cutlery, electronics, blankets, foodstuffs and even Orthodox icons in a looting campaign driven by opportunism and revenge. Some looters even came to pluck ripe peaches off the trees.

"This is not looting, this is trophies," said Garik Meriyev, 32, a stubbled South Ossetian dressed in green camouflage pants, a black baseball cap and dusty jackboots.

He and four other men loaded their yellow Russian-made minibus Saturday with metal pipes, timber and bricks from a burned down house.

"All of this will be destroyed anyway," he said. "But now these things will serve me."

___

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia; Mike Eckel in Gori, Georgia; Yuras Karmanau in Tskhinvali, Georgia; and Jim Heintz and David Nowak in Moscow contributed to this report.

[[R_H]]

US warship reaches Georgian port

A US warship has arrived in the Georgian port of Batumi carrying the first delivery of aid supplies by sea.

Russian forces are still in control of the military port of Poti, to the north of Batumi, after Moscow withdrew most of its combat troops from the country.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who brokered the ceasefire, has urged Moscow to pull out those forces too.

Meanwhile, a train carrying fuel has exploded after hitting a mine near Gori, Georgia's interior ministry said.

A huge plume of black smoke could be seen across the area and witnesses said the force of the blast had forced some of the train's wagons off the tracks.

Interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said there had been several explosions near an abandoned Georgian military base where the Russian troops, on leaving Gori, had left a stockpile of munitions taken from the Georgian army.

He suggested the stockpile or the train track could have been mined by the Russian forces. He said there had been no casualties.

Georgian authorities had been hoping to help thousands of refugees return to Gori on Sunday having carried out a mine-sweeping operation in the town.

Georgia's Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said it would be important to see the extent of the damage, once the fire had been extinguished.

"The railway is vital, not just for the Georgian economy but for the economies of neighbouring countries," he said.

The track runs through the capital Tbilisi before splitting and running to the Black Sea ports of Poti and Batumi and south-west towards the Turkish border.

One of the train's wagons was marked Azpetrol - a company based in Baku, Azerbaijan.

Displaced

Russia's four-day war with Georgia erupted after Tbilisi tried to retake its province of South Ossetia - which broke away in 1992 and was supported by Moscow - in a surprise offensive on 7 August. The offensive followed a series of clashes between Georgian and South Ossetian forces.

The conflict left hundreds of people dead and created tens of thousands of refugees. Many have been returning to their damaged or destroyed homes since the Russian withdrawal.

The UN's refugee agency UNHCR reported this week that, according to Russian estimates, more than 30,000 people from South Ossetia had fled to North Ossetia. Another 128,000 were estimated to have been displaced within Georgia.

International aid agencies are working on the ground and the US has already delivered some aid by military cargo plane.

The destroyer USS McFaul is reported to be carrying supplies such as blankets, hygiene kits and baby food. The supplies will be unloaded by a floating crane as the port is too shallow for the ship to dock.

Two more US ships are due to arrive later this week.

The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, in Batumi, said that apart from delivering aid, the arrival of US naval personnel is undoubtedly intended to send a signal to the Russians - that America is serious about its support for Georgia.

But, he adds, the prospect of US and Russian armed forces actually meeting on Georgian soil is one that both sides seem keen to avoid.

Batumi is not a natural harbour for a naval vessel the size of the USS McFaul to dock but Russian forces have been fortifying their positions at the key port of Poti, further up the coast.

On Saturday, Mr Sarkozy, welcomed the withdrawal of Russian forces so far, but urged Moscow to pull its troops back from Poti and Senaki, which is the site of Georgia's main air base.

Russia says it has a duty and a right to keep its forces in a buffer zone around the breakaway territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia - though it acknowledges that Poti falls well outside that zone.

[Knife]

The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, in Batumi, said that apart from delivering aid, the arrival of US naval personnel is undoubtedly intended to send a signal to the Russians - that America is serious about its support for Georgia

I honestly don't see why they'd think that? Our support of Georgia is nothing but a flimsy political stab at Russia so some elements in our government can stand back and remember the good old days of fighting the 'Bear'.

[Sidewinder]

Russian occupation of areas outside of the security zones they're permitted to establish in South Ossetia (according to the peacekeeping agreements mentioned in the articles) makes me suspect guerilla warfare/terrorist attacks will soon be launched against Russian forces and their alleged collaborators in Poti and other areas with an ethnic Georgian majority. I don't think there's any need to remind everyone how VERY BAD that would be.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Russian occupation of areas outside of the security zones they're permitted to establish in South Ossetia (according to the peacekeeping agreements mentioned in the articles) makes me suspect guerilla warfare/terrorist attacks will soon be launched against Russian forces and their alleged collaborators in Poti and other areas with an ethnic Georgian majority. I don't think there's any need to remind everyone how VERY BAD that would be.

I don't know about "soon," the Russian advance was so rapid and powerful that any resistance is going to be profoundly debilitated for a while. Certainly if they stayed in ethnic Georgian areas indefinitely the Georgians would start to mount guerrilla campaigns, as the various Caucasian peoples are wont to do, but it takes time for a guerrilla band to establish itself, and if the speedy Russian withdrawal from Gori is any indication, they won't be staying long.

Poti is probably being occupied because it is one of Georgia's two significant ports and was formerly a minor base for the Soviet Black Sea fleet, so it likely retains infrastructure that would allow it to be used as a staging point against Abkhazia, or is at least the transport hub near Abkhazia. It's also possible that Russia is withdrawing slowly and in discrete stages with the intention of seeing just how much pressure the West is willing to exert.