God is personal? What the heck does that mean?

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Last night I had a mini-row with a close friend of mine regarding her religion. I was driving her to her dorm and it went something like this.

Her: You know my mom told me something.

Me: What?

Her: You can't be an atheist because there's no such thing.

Me: Do you even know what it means to be an atheist?

Her: Yeah it means you don't believe in anything. So you can't be an atheist because you can't believe in nothing.

Me: You know what your mom is ignorant. All it means to be an atheist is that I don't believe in...well no I'm about 99.99% sure there is no such thing as deity, god, jehovah, yahweh, jesus, none of it. I have morals it's not that I don't believe in nothing.

Her: O okay.

Me: (steaming) You know you're really ignorant.

Her (didn't realize it at the time but I was starting to mount insults): How so?

Me: You, claim to be Christian, yet you don't know anything. You don't read the bible yet you claim to follow this Jesus fellow when really you don't know who he is. You can't claim to be someones follower when most of everything you know is word of mouth, you have to try and get as close to the source. Otherwise you're just hearing someone elses idea of what Christianity is, without a frame of reference.

Her: I disagree.

Me: No you can't claim that.

I went into a bit of a diatribe describing how one can't claim to be something without knowing what it is and gave an example about how the early church tried to control peoples idea about god by killing them for owning a bible. I didn't realize it but she'd already shut me out and simply parroted the "I disagree" bit. Later on in the evening we discussed it and she said that "God is a personal thing that you simply won't understand because you intellectualize things. You think with your head not with your heart" (I swear the head heart bit I've heard from so many people I want to throttle them). What is this "God is personal" feeling emotional thing that I don't understand and how can I explain that really it's just a mental interpretation of something that's just within an individual?

After the night when I woke up in the morning I read one of her books Eat, Pray, Love and I kinda got scared. Why is it that people attribute good ideas that they "hear from god" to god and not to themselves? Whenever I have an epiphany about something and I do make an emotional connection to some amount of knowledge I have, I don't attribute it to god. It's just "O wow, NOW I get it" not some quasi spiritual delusion. Why is it so hard for people to just say "Hey I'm glad I feel this way." and why do they get so offended when you try and explain to them that it's not some sky fairy. I think I'd be happy that I was coming to all the great conclusions I needed as opposed to a pixie.

[Molyneux]

"God is personal" translates pretty easily to "I hear voices! Don't you?"

[Kanastrous]

Weak persons need a close-by personal God in the same way that a person with a fractured tibia need a close-by crutch.

Although admittedly kicking the God-crutch out from under people is much more rewarding, for both parties, than kicking away the literal kind.

[Winston Blake]

"God is a personal thing that you simply won't understand because you intellectualize things. You think with your head not with your heart" (I swear the head heart bit I've heard from so many people I want to throttle them).

So her response was essentially "It may not be true, but it's truthy."

I will speak to you in plain, simple English. And that brings us to tonight's word: 'truthiness'.

[...]

No, we are divided between those who think with their head, and those who know with their heart.

[...]

"We're not talking about truth, we're talking about something that seems like truth — the truth we want to exist."

[Darth Yoshi]

Maybe I'm being deliberately daft, but how exactly does one think with the heart? It's all muscle.

[Darmalus]

Maybe I'm being deliberately daft, but how exactly does one think with the heart? It's all muscle.

It's code-speak for doing/believing whatever requires the least thought and makes you feel warm and fuzzy about yourself. It's the mental equivalent of taking some drugs rather than planning your budget, because it is less effort and makes you feel good right away.

[General Zod]

Maybe I'm being deliberately daft, but how exactly does one think with the heart? It's all muscle.

Maybe it's a lot like thinking with the penis

[SirNitram]

'God Is Personal' is an easy, quick reason why whatever you do is justified. If you accept the premises(God exists, God interacts with reality, God has decided to give the individual a personal relationship), then implicit is the conclusion that any act is approved by God unless you're hit with direct, personal retribution. Like lightning blasts.

[Winston Blake]

Maybe I'm being deliberately daft, but how exactly does one think with the heart? It's all muscle.

The heart just represents emotion. To think with your heart, then, is to not think at all, but to simply assume that whatever makes you feel good is true. It works on a primitive level - for example food and sex make you feel good so you try to get more of them. Reconciling your world model with contradictory evidence is often a cold and uncomfortable process; it's easier and more comforting to discard such evidence to maintain a warm illusion. Otherwise you would have to face the shame that you were 'doing all that for nothing'.

[Molyneux]

Maybe I'm being deliberately daft, but how exactly does one think with the heart? It's all muscle.

Maybe it's a lot like thinking with the penis

So...thinking with your hammer, then?

[SpacedTeddyBear]

"God is personal" translates pretty easily to "I hear voices! Don't you?"

It's called intuition and self consciousness. If you mistaken that for voices inside your head, then you have some serious psychological problems.

[Molyneux]

"God is personal" translates pretty easily to "I hear voices! Don't you?"

It's called intuition and self consciousness. If you mistaken that for voices inside your head, then you have some serious psychological problems.

Yes, they do, I'd think.
I talk to myself in my head often - but I can tell that it's me. I don't go around telling people that the creator of the universe and all that is has me on his own personal psychic speed dial.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Me: You know what your mom is ignorant. All it means to be an atheist is that I don't believe in...well no I'm about 99.99% sure there is no such thing as deity, god, jehovah, yahweh, jesus, none of it. I have morals it's not that I don't believe in nothing.

Her: O okay.

Me: (steaming) You know you're really ignorant.

Her arguments may be incredibly stupid, but from your account it sounds like you were being a gigantic dick to her with literally no provocation. I realize you didn't post the conversation word for word, but your summary makes it look like you are going out of your way to start an argument with someone who not only doesn't want to argue, but doesn't have the knowledge to make a proper argument on the subject anyway.

[Turin]

Her arguments may be incredibly stupid, but from your account it sounds like you were being a gigantic dick to her with literally no provocation.

She all but called him a liar (that it's impossible to not believe in something, so if he claims that, he's lying). How is that not a provocation?

[Majin Gojira]

Her arguments may be incredibly stupid, but from your account it sounds like you were being a gigantic dick to her with literally no provocation.

She all but called him a liar (that it's impossible to not believe in something, so if he claims that, he's lying). How is that not a provocation?

True, but a better response, at least a more socially acceptible one (from a self-effacing point of view) is, when told: "You can't be an atheist because there's no such thing." is this:

"Well, then call me Bigfoot." With the possible followup of "And that better notbe Beef Jerky in your hand."

[Dooey Jo]

What is this "God is personal" feeling emotional thing that I don't understand and how can I explain that really it's just a mental interpretation of something that's just within an individual?

It means that you believe in God because of faith, and not because of rational discourse, and that he has a different relationship with everyone (the Bible says something to that effect).
Of course you can say that it's just an emotion, and show MRI scans of the brain and whatnot, but they will just say that that emotion is caused by God, and you can't disprove that, so a better idea is to just stop giving a shit if people don't think like you do (and no, they won't care if you explain burden of proof to them).

Why is it so hard for people to just say "Hey I'm glad I feel this way." and why do they get so offended when you try and explain to them that it's not some sky fairy. I think I'd be happy that I was coming to all the great conclusions I needed as opposed to a pixie.

Because, unlike you, they want to believe in said sky fairy, and that he's there to help them. It makes them feel safe, or whatever. Of course they will be annoyed when you tell them their feelings aren't what they think they are. You probably would too, seeing how angry you got when someone had a misinformed idea of what it meant to be an atheist.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

What is this "God is personal" feeling emotional thing that I don't understand and how can I explain that really it's just a mental interpretation of something that's just within an individual?

It means that you believe in God because of faith, and not because of rational discourse, and that he has a different relationship with everyone (the Bible says something to that effect).
Of course you can say that it's just an emotion, and show MRI scans of the brain and whatnot, but they will just say that that emotion is caused by God, and you can't disprove that, so a better idea is to just stop giving a shit if people don't think like you do (and no, they won't care if you explain burden of proof to them).

By the throne that's what I hear all the time!! God is personal and we all experience him differently? I fucking wish gravity was the same. That way I could "experience" flight instead of "experiencing" hitting the ground. I can't really wrap my head around it.

When I was a JW, I was always always told by my elders and my mom that god "wasn't in my heart" I could spit out scripture like the best of them but nothing "penetrated" my "heart". I don't get it. The things affect me emotionally are things that are real. Things I have evidence for that has been tested and proven to me. How can you take a single source and say "Lo! It haseth truthiness!!!"?

Because, unlike you, they want to believe in said sky fairy, and that he's there to help them. It makes them feel safe, or whatever.

Why would you want someone controlling your life, unless your self esteem is really in the shitter? How can you feel safe when, despite the fact of your "piety" people of your "faith" end up dying, getting shot, raped, etc? Now you have to reconcile it with the fact of "O well god helped me decide what school to go to but couldn't save that bus load of people in Palestine?"

Of course they will be annoyed when you tell them their feelings aren't what they think they are. You probably would too, seeing how angry you got when someone had a misinformed idea of what it meant to be an atheist.

True, but a better response, at least a more socially acceptible one (from a self-effacing point of view) is, when told: "You can't be an atheist because there's no such thing." is this:

"Well, then call me Bigfoot." With the possible followup of "And that better notbe Beef Jerky in your hand."

There is a distinct difference between "it is my opinion that your statement is false" and "your statement is incorrect if you look at the nearest fucking dictionary". She was, and still is, ignorant, and I made that a fact when I apologized to her (I apologized for the way I conveyed what I said, because what I said was true). I also highly hate people making statements in a fashion, so definite, that it would seem they are an authority on the subject, instead of taking the humble route of "well from what I understand...". I'd get the same feeling when I was a JW and people would tell me I wasn't a christian. Read the bible? No? Suck my cock. You do? Okay show me the scripture that makes me less of a christian than you. Can't? Suck it and swallow. The trinity you say? Lets consult webster and see where the trinity is in the definition of christian. Isn't there? Damn you'd better bend over.

[Turin]

She all but called him a liar (that it's impossible to not believe in something, so if he claims that, he's lying). How is that not a provocation?

True, but a better response, at least a more socially acceptible one (from a self-effacing point of view) is, when told: "You can't be an atheist because there's no such thing." is this: "Well, then call me Bigfoot." With the possible followup of "And that better notbe Beef Jerky in your hand."

There is a distinct difference between "it is my opinion that your statement is false" and "your statement is incorrect if you look at the nearest fucking dictionary".
<snip>I also highly hate people making statements in a fashion, so definite, that it would seem they are an authority on the subject, instead of taking the humble route of "well from what I understand..."

In all fairness, there is a polite way and an impolite way to deal with that sort of ignorance, but this is someone who's supposed to be a "close friend" of RnW's. I'd be a lot more offended if someone who was a close friend incorrectly called me a liar than if, say, some acquaintance at the office did so. And frankly I think that sometimes Christians need a little kick in the teeth with respect to their self-perceived "right" to go waving their religion around like a club in discussion.

[PeZook]

What I find worst about the "You're thinking with your head, not with your heart" line is that it implies that thinking with your head is somehow wrong, and that the more intellectual you try to be, the worse person you are.

[Kanastrous]

There's a very wide streak of anti-intellectualism/rationalism/educationalism, in the American faith community.

Or maybe it's more accurate, to suggest that there's a streak of faith, in the American anti-intellectualism/rationalism/educationalism community.



educationalism?

[Darth Wong]

In terms of their attitude toward faith, Americans basically follow Martin Luther, who said that Reason is the enemy of Faith. The whole "listen to your heart, not your head" idea comes from the Bible which tells you that Satan is clever and devious, so your "heart" is telling you what God wants, but your head can be easily swayed by Satan's clever arguments (interestingly, no one ever picks up on the unintended corollary of this message, which is that God is less intelligent than Satan).

[Twoyboy]

In terms of their attitude toward faith, Americans basically follow Martin Luther, who said that Reason is the enemy of Faith. The whole "listen to your heart, not your head" idea comes from the Bible which tells you that Satan is clever and devious, so your "heart" is telling you what God wants, but your head can be easily swayed by Satan's clever arguments (interestingly, no one ever picks up on the unintended corollary of this message, which is that God is less intelligent than Satan).

Either that or God is quite intelligent, but believes his Creation are a bunch of complete retards with whom it's impossible to reason.

Personally, I'm kind of buying into His philosophy...

[DPDarkPrimus]

Of course, Martin Luther's teachings on the benefits of Ignorance stem from Paul's writings.

[Darth Wong]

In terms of their attitude toward faith, Americans basically follow Martin Luther, who said that Reason is the enemy of Faith. The whole "listen to your heart, not your head" idea comes from the Bible which tells you that Satan is clever and devious, so your "heart" is telling you what God wants, but your head can be easily swayed by Satan's clever arguments (interestingly, no one ever picks up on the unintended corollary of this message, which is that God is less intelligent than Satan).

Either that or God is quite intelligent, but believes his Creation are a bunch of complete retards with whom it's impossible to reason.

Personally, I'm kind of buying into His philosophy...

No, that interpretation is completely unsupportable in the scriptures, which tell you that "wisdom of God" is incompatible with the "wisdom of the Earth". In short, that which appears to be logical is in fact illogical according to God. Ergo, the problem is not that we are irrational; it is that God is selling an irrational product, and we have to stop being too logical to buy it.

[Twoyboy]

No, that interpretation is completely unsupportable in the scriptures, which tell you that "wisdom of God" is incompatible with the "wisdom of the Earth". In short, that which appears to be logical is in fact illogical according to God. Ergo, the problem is not that we are irrational; it is that God is selling an irrational product, and we have to stop being too logical to buy it.

Wow, haven't read that one before. Can someone provide a Bible ref? I want to use that one in future. The closest I seem to be able to find is in Corinthians:

1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But I don't really understand it.