God is personal? What the heck does that mean?

[General Zod]

Wow, haven't read that one before. Can someone provide a Bible ref? I want to use that one in future. The closest I seem to be able to find is in Corinthians:

1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But I don't really understand it.

It means that God doesn't like smart people.

[Darth Wong]

No, that interpretation is completely unsupportable in the scriptures, which tell you that "wisdom of God" is incompatible with the "wisdom of the Earth". In short, that which appears to be logical is in fact illogical according to God. Ergo, the problem is not that we are irrational; it is that God is selling an irrational product, and we have to stop being too logical to buy it.

Wow, haven't read that one before. Can someone provide a Bible ref? I want to use that one in future. The closest I seem to be able to find is in Corinthians:

1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But I don't really understand it.

Use a translation with less obscure language.

[Superman]

Everyone just stop for a minute and think about the level of narcissism it takes to believe in a "personal" god. Out of all the people on earth, you believe (the christian, muslim, etc.) that god is YOUR personal god who will grant your wishes, heal your sicknesses, save your life, etc., while everyone else is fucked... or, at the very least, doesn't have that special access to god that you have. Rather childish, wouldn't you say?

One of my favorite quotes:

"Religion is an attempt to get control over the sensory world, in which we are placed, by means of the wish-world, which we have developed inside us as a result of biological and psychological necessities."

-Sigmund Freud
A Philosophy of Life (Lecture 35)

[Dooey Jo]

It means that you believe in God because of faith, and not because of rational discourse, and that he has a different relationship with everyone (the Bible says something to that effect).
Of course you can say that it's just an emotion, and show MRI scans of the brain and whatnot, but they will just say that that emotion is caused by God, and you can't disprove that, so a better idea is to just stop giving a shit if people don't think like you do (and no, they won't care if you explain burden of proof to them).

By the throne that's what I hear all the time!! God is personal and we all experience him differently? I fucking wish gravity was the same. That way I could "experience" flight instead of "experiencing" hitting the ground. I can't really wrap my head around it.

Yes, but God isn't supposed to be a physical phenomenon, he's supposed to be some weirdo feeling, and feelings are almost completely subjective. Just ask a number of people how it feels to be happy.

When I was a JW, I was always always told by my elders and my mom that god "wasn't in my heart" I could spit out scripture like the best of them but nothing "penetrated" my "heart". I don't get it. The things affect me emotionally are things that are real. Things I have evidence for that has been tested and proven to me. How can you take a single source and say "Lo! It haseth truthiness!!!"?

By being irrational and wanting something to be true. You have to remember that it's a crappy philosophy and not something to strive for.

Because, unlike you, they want to believe in said sky fairy, and that he's there to help them. It makes them feel safe, or whatever.

Why would you want someone controlling your life, unless your self esteem is really in the shitter? How can you feel safe when, despite the fact of your "piety" people of your "faith" end up dying, getting shot, raped, etc? Now you have to reconcile it with the fact of "O well god helped me decide what school to go to but couldn't save that bus load of people in Palestine?"

Those are the kinds of problems that usually drive people out of religiosity, or at least theism, especially if they only believed in it out of tradition. Others try to rationalise them (those people were bad / God works in mysterious ways), or ignore them altogether. Some people find comfort in knowing that "God has a special plan for them". They are a bit like a child who wants to have daddy around, and if you do what daddy tells you to, he will be nice to you (otherwise he will throw you in the boiler in the basement).

[Junghalli]

Why would you want someone controlling your life, unless your self esteem is really in the shitter?

The whole eternal life in paradise after death part of the deal is probably a big draw. I can pretty easily imagine how somebody would not want to face the idea that there's probably no afterlife. Evolution has programmed us to find death really fucking scary. An ideology that tells you it can stop you from dying if you accept it can be incredibly seductive.

[Surlethe]

Everyone just stop for a minute and think about the level of narcissism it takes to believe in a "personal" god. Out of all the people on earth, you believe (the christian, muslim, etc.) that god is YOUR personal god who will grant your wishes, heal your sicknesses, save your life, etc., while everyone else is fucked... or, at the very least, doesn't have that special access to god that you have. Rather childish, wouldn't you say?

I've asked people what it's like to 'experience' God. They tell me it's comforting, like being wrapped up snugly in a big, warm, fuzzy blanket. You know that everything will work out okay for you and that everything's all right. I don't think you can actually say that they're putting themselves at the center of the world with the belief; it's not like they think it's exclusive. Instead, they'll tell you that they feel that way, and you could feel that way too, and have that direct access to God's ear, if only you would let Jesus into your life and make him your personal savior.

The description of spirituality as an emotional crutch is far more accurate. It's, quite literally, like a safety blanket -- except it's one that can be shared. "Hey, dude, you want a shot of this?" Opiate of the masses indeed.

[Kanastrous]

In terms of their attitude toward faith, Americans basically follow Martin Luther, who said that Reason is the enemy of Faith. The whole "listen to your heart, not your head" idea comes from the Bible which tells you that Satan is clever and devious, so your "heart" is telling you what God wants, but your head can be easily swayed by Satan's clever arguments (interestingly, no one ever picks up on the unintended corollary of this message, which is that God is less intelligent than Satan).

Maybe God isn't less intelligent than Satan; maybe God just prefers hot throbbing muscle to squishy wet fat and nerve tissue.

[Kanastrous]

I've asked people what it's like to 'experience' God. They tell me it's comforting, like being wrapped up snugly in a big, warm, fuzzy blanket.

Some days.

Other days, it's more like being the guest of honor, at a blanket party.

[Junghalli]

The description of spirituality as an emotional crutch is far more accurate. It's, quite literally, like a safety blanket -- except it's one that can be shared. "Hey, dude, you want a shot of this?" Opiate of the masses indeed.

The assurance that something wiser and more powerful than you is looking out for you and will protect you if only you do what it says is rather naturally appealing to human beings. It's what evolution has primed us to crave from our parents and our tribe elders. Religion exploits this by replacing "parents" or "leader" with "God". It's no accident that God is called "Our Father who art in Heaven".

It's not hard to understand the appeal of the Abrahamic religions when you think about it. They're rather cleverly set up to exploit our primal desires.

[Darth Wong]

I think it's more revealing that they often refer to him as "The Almighty", or "Our Lord", or "King of Kings". It's an extrapolation of alpha-male worship and monarchism. There is quite a bit of father-figure projection there too, but we all have real fathers. Without the addition of the domineering monarchistic element (particularly in the form of Jesus, who is said to be superior simply by virtue of inheritance), there is nothing to distinguish their God from any tribal elder or father figure.

[PeZook]

And by saying that he's a personal God, you can basically say "My Friend G here can kick your king's ass any time, and he loves me, yo!"

[Gandalf]

And by saying that he's a personal God, you can basically say "My Friend G here can kick your king's ass any time, and he loves me, yo!"

It also removes any possible association with previous atrocities committed by the same people. Also, it saves you having to do any religious stuff.

[Civil War Man]

maybe God just prefers hot throbbing muscle to squishy wet fat and nerve tissue.

I think you're on to something here. GALE should hook God up with a membership packet.

[General Zod]

maybe God just prefers hot throbbing muscle to squishy wet fat and nerve tissue.

I think you're on to something here. GALE should hook God up with a membership packet.

You kidding? God's been a secret member for centuries. What exactly do you think Jesus did with his disciples out on those long fishing expeditions after all? Let's put it this way; there's a reason he never had a female disciple.

[Patrick Degan]

maybe God just prefers hot throbbing muscle to squishy wet fat and nerve tissue.

I think you're on to something here. GALE should hook God up with a membership packet.

You kidding? God's been a secret member for centuries. What exactly do you think Jesus did with his disciples out on those long fishing expeditions after all? Let's put it this way; there's a reason he never had a female disciple.

You forget Mary Magdaline.

[rhoenix]

You forget Mary Magdaline.

Fag hag, pure and simple.

More to the point though RIPP, this "God is personal" statement is basically a concession for her into "God loves me, because people tell me so, so there" type of thinking where she knows she can't debate this logically with you. i.e., she's confessed to knowing little about her own beliefs.

Quite a few Christians I've met fall into this category - maybe I just like being a devil's advocate (heh), but in my own anecdotal experience, when a Christian acquaintance of mine launches into a diatribe against Islam (for instance), I love pointing out that most of the same laws and requirements are in the Bible too - they're just ignored for now.

Next time she pops off with another "My mommy said that..." jab though, take a deep breath or two before you respond, if you have to. If you can calmly dismantle the argument and make it look outright cretinous at the same time, then it would more easily place doubts into her mind as to whether or not her mother knows what she's talking about.

[Darth Wong]

The "personal God" is self-glorifying ("the creator of the entire universe cares deeply about what happens in my pants!") but it is also a matter of convenience: because someone's God is "personal", he can ignore any attempt to refute any part of his beliefs about that God. After all, it's personal. That's what's so annoying about the "personal God". It's a celebration of subjectivity, and the exact opposite of the rationalist mindset which helped drag us out of the muck and build our high-tech civilization.

[rhoenix]

Exactly - it's intellectual Luddite-ism. And it can be fucking irritating.

[Patrick Degan]

As always, the Prophet George Carlin had the right take on the whole idea of the personal god. What about the Divine Plan?

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend. But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

[Superman]

I don't think you can actually say that they're putting themselves at the center of the world with the belief; it's not like they think it's exclusive. Instead, they'll tell you that they feel that way, and you could feel that way too, and have that direct access to God's ear, if only you would let Jesus into your life and make him your personal savior.

If you think about how a Christian sees him or herself in when compared to everyone else, they are right and everyone else is wrong. That in itself is a narcissistic way of thinking. Of course they believe because it makes them "feel better," it just makes them feel better in a way that puts them in an infallible and superior position when compared to everyone else.

[Kanastrous]

The "personal God" is self-glorifying ("the creator of the entire universe cares deeply about what happens in my pants!")

Well, yeah.

The Creator of All Existence wanting to get into your pants, is a pretty swell compliment.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I fucking hate this Kierkegaard horsefuckery. Everyone who swears by it thinks themselves so enlightened because they've rejected the dogma of those buzzkill organized religions in exchange for meta-woo-woo beliefs that are, like, soooo progressive and culturally unbiased. It's like a sort of Protect The Hypothesis Fallacy concerning God; just keep re-defining and re-defining what God's role and nature is until it resembles nothing like what it once did, but as long as that stupid word is in play, they think they've proven something.

[General Zod]

I fucking hate this Kierkegaard horsefuckery. Everyone who swears by it thinks themselves so enlightened because they've rejected the dogma of those buzzkill organized religions in exchange for meta-woo-woo beliefs that are, like, soooo progressive and culturally unbiased. It's like a sort of Protect The Hypothesis Fallacy concerning God; just keep re-defining and re-defining what God's role and nature is until it resembles nothing like what it once did, but as long as that stupid word is in play, they think they've proven something.

The term you're looking for is "shifting goalposts".

[Kanastrous]

At first I mis-read that as shitting goalposts, but in a sense that's what they're doing, too.

[R.O.A]

Weak persons need a close-by personal God in the same way that a person with a fractured tibia need a close-by crutch.

Although admittedly kicking the God-crutch out from under people is much more rewarding, for both parties, than kicking away the literal kind.

Is that to say that only a strong person believes in an inpersonal one?