Every once in a great while, I go down into Testing just to see if there's anything of interest that happens to be there. Today I hopped into Wicked Pilot's welcome back thread to give him my regards and while I was in the forum, I happened to notice this thread, "He's baaacckk!!! (SC)"
A few snatches from this cavalcade of mediocrity:
Master of Cards wrote:And he fails right out of the gate
Darth Nostril wrote:My memory isn't what it used to be so I may have remembered incorrectly, but I'm fairly sure that was what Failure Boy said.
Mr. Coffee wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Oh and the next time SC cries foul, he may be somewhat justified. What happened to only taking the piss when he actually says stupid shit?
When doesn't he say stupid shit?
P.S. Get the fuck out of testing and quit shitting on our fun, ya fucking asshat.
Buddha wrote:
Phantasee wrote:Fuck it, at least it'll give him the heads up that either it's too early, or it's never going to be the right time to come back. He could have turned out alright if you shitstains didn't have a hard on for pissing on him.
Methinks someone forgot to take his reality pill again. This will NOT do!
What the flying fuck is this horseshit? I may not be as active on these forums as I once was, but I'm pretty gooddamn sure we still have a couple rule against people dragging vendettas around the board and this kind of shit is in blatent violation.
What the fuck kind of message does this shitstain behavior send? As soon as someone's blacklisted it's okay to make whatever god damn threads you please, whether they see them or not, and mock the living hell out of them? When did this board become a fucking high school complete with assholes running around behind peoples' backs to mock them out to their clique of choice? Not to mention this kind of shit-flinging is being done in Testing, which is really just the icing on the fucking cake.
Since when did being in Testing make people immune to the god damn board rules?
It doesn't make them immune to the board rules. If anything, the thread should be moved to the HoS to preserve the evidence, and the participants in question strung up for blatant violations of DR2 and DR3.
1.) Who the fuck are we talking about? I dont care enough bout a great many of the plebes to keep track of them.
2.) is it me or are things on the board getting crazier. Sometimes I keep thinkin News and Politics became a crossbreed of Testing and HoS 2.0 (particularily when it comes to sniping at the Doomsayers like J and Aerius. I notice that has been happening for some time.)
Funny you should mention that, there were some of us in a private form that were commenting on how N&P has become kinda like a "Venting --with some information" thread lately.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
The board has more or less been degenerating into a hotbed of barely disguised vendettas over the past half a year or so in my view of things, and something needs to be done to stop it.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
I've never been completely sure why we endure Testing in its current form. This board always impressed me for its vehement intolerance for horseshit, and yet we keep a metaphorical stable for its production.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
Lagmonster wrote:I've never been completely sure why we endure Testing in its current form. This board always impressed me for its vehement intolerance for horseshit, and yet we keep a metaphorical stable for its production.
Because it doesn't do any harm to have a place for people to bullshit and shoot the breeze. SDN is already serious business board enough, and anyway, if we want to go around fixing forums, we have much bigger problems we could tackle. I'd like to start by hosing the +1 me-tooers out of N&P, personally.
As for the thread currently under discussion, I count five offenders: MasterofCards, chitoryu, Darth Nostril (maybe...I think the worst he did was call SC "failure boy"), Mr.Coffee, and Buddha. I think it should also be noted, before everyone gets their "RAR PUNISH TESTING!" engines all revved up, that Darth Raptor, Crazedwraith, Invictus ChiKen, and Phantasee all called bullshit on the SC dogpile well before the Senate got involved, so obviously this isn't a universal problem in Testing.
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963 X-Ray Blues
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The board has more or less been degenerating into a hotbed of barely disguised vendettas over the past half a year or so in my view of things, and something needs to be done to stop it.
Is that it? I've found that a lot of what transpires on the board lately doesn't seem to hold my interest. I thought it might have just been me, but it appears I'm not the only one that feels this way. Perhaps it's because of all the sniping back and forth that I'm tuning out.
It seems that the Politics in N&P has become more polarized, and taken more personally. The noise ratio is pretty high compared to the signal, and there seems to be more grudge-carrying-- all my perspective, of course. Short tempers, flame baiting, dogpiling... and more & more over what I see as kinda trivial stuff.
I see a catharsis event looming on th ehorizon, and it shan't be pretty.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
I got to agree with N&P, except that I think the downward turn is not anything recent, its be a going on for virtually as long as that forum has existed. Now it’s gotten to the point that most threads are just plain pointless to discussion and any many useful contributions are ever even read because they get buried behind a thousand one line posts of insults.
As for testing, who gives a shit? Delete the whole forum for all I care, or let it overflow with spam, as long as everything gets deleted its not big deal. If anything we need more bullshit from other forums, like those endless spam fest venting threads to be shifted into that pit of pointlessness.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
First, I hadn't even realized Schuyler was gone, and I don't care if he's gone or comes back. I don't see what business it is of anyone else's least of all the Senate's, so yeah, i'm smelling Vendetta there.
Second, despite that bullshit, I don't object to Testing. I just stay the hell out of there becuase it doesnt interest me, but it does seem to serve a suitable dumping place for all the frivolous shit. I think if we took Testing away we'd probably see an even worse increase of flooding the other forums with stupid shit as it is.
However, even WITH testing, the frivolous shit doesn't stay there. We get pointless threads - some of the "HAHA LOOK AT THE STUPID MORON/FUNDIE/POLITICIAN/WHATEVER" type threads which seem to be little more than thinly veiled attempts to either stir shit up or give some plebe an excuse to "talk tough." I mean lets face it, there are certain topics on this board in N&P that are guaranteed to stir up mockery (creationists being a prime one, but also the current idiot Administration is another, or even Americans in general.) Criticism I have no probelm with, I don't even care if people openly mock America or Americans, but there should also be some substance to it as well - I don't mind it when people I KNOW who are intelligent and have legitimate grievances against America do it (Such as Mike, though in Mike's case I also add that its his fucking board and he can do what he wants and I have no right to limit him.) but to do that you actually have to prove that you're NOT just some stupid wannabe spammer, at least in my mind.
Tied in with that seems to be alot of "me too/spammy" bullshit on many of those issues too. I can bet you if someone intelligent comes in and puts out an intelligent commentary, you'll have at least two other people with frivolous or stupid comments.
The Vendettas I think are the biggest and most obvious problem though. As Coyote has said, N&P has become more heavily polarized, and this tends to lead to certain obvious factions and also ire being directed at those factions. Notable among this have been J and aerius both for their statements as well as their past gloating about how much money they make (though I dont know if they've kept up on that.) as well as AV and Duchess. Certain individuals seem to have gotten tired of it (which I admit I find also tiresome as well.) but it seems that those "certain individuals" also seem to be bordering on (if not passing into) Vendetta territory. I'll see if I can dig up at least one example (I'm sure I could find one)
Lastly I don't think that this problem extends to the ENTIRE board. alot of the other forums tend to be alot less active than N&P. I rarely see the kinds of crap in N&P in other ones: SLAM seems to have actual discussions, Fanfics keeps to its purposes as does AM&P. The fiction and fantasy forum also seem relatively free of the problems that crop up in N&P.
OR at least, if there ARE problems, they're far more minor than what we see in N&P, and can probably wait.
And for those who have the power to do...then actually trim some of the shit in N&P, instead of bitching about.
Or have the moderators forgotten that Mike actually gave the go ahead for this?
As for testing, it doesn't exonerate the fuckers, so no...it should be brought up and discussed because as much as fucking idiot spawn pool it is, in the end it is still a part of the board.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
So, let's see if I get this straight: We're zeroing in on a bunch of spammy people ridiculing someone who made a stupid, grandstanding move about leaving, only to return two weeks later, in a forum where the thread would have been locked at three pages and deleted. Even though they took their spammy shit to where it should have been, instead of infesting the threads they were talking about with it.
Meanwhile people who actively attack others in permanent threads and actively derail discussions, something which apparently has been going on for months now, that may be acted upon in the near future.
Dunno, seems like a lack of priority, if you ask me. It's giving detention to the kids making snide comments under their breath in the back of the room while the kids starting fistfights in the lunch room get off scot free, especially from a short term analysis. You do need to apply discipline to both parties, but not the same levels, and certainly not with the same gravitas. A simple slap of the wrists will deter many of the folks going after Colfax. It's one thing to call someone out for stupid shit they do in the thread they do it in, you don't need to make a highlight thread elsewhere.
That said, it is a pretty clear violation of DR3, in this case. However, I suspect that simply reinforcing this point and telling them that they were naughty should be enough. The more serious concerns, I think, are the more malicious vendettas across the board that actively make debate and discussion difficult.
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep. The Realm of Confusion
"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying." SilCore Wiki! Come take a look!
While this thread is active, I would like to publicly commend Schuyler Colfax for his apparent gain in maturity. He did not come into the vendetta-thread swinging, as was his wont a month or two ago. He simply let it alone, and didn't respond to any of the flamebaiting. Here's to hoping that this change will be permanent.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
Surlethe wrote:While this thread is active, I would like to publicly commend Schuyler Colfax for his apparent gain in maturity. He did not come into the vendetta-thread swinging, as was his wont a month or two ago. He simply let it alone, and didn't respond to any of the flamebaiting. Here's to hoping that this change will be permanent.
Seconded. He's got to keep it going, of course, so here's hoping.
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep. The Realm of Confusion
"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying." SilCore Wiki! Come take a look!
On the topic of the Vendetta in testing, the thread in question is unavailable to me, so I shall reserve judgment. That said, vendetta posting has been more and more common lately and should be disciplined.
As to N&P, I have made my views known to a number of people in private, so I may as well air them here as well. At some point the culture in that forum shifted from the no blood no foul style of the rest of the board to its own prison rules style. No longer is it that one couples insults with a rebuttal, now it is common to go after the target on a personal level rather than actually refuting the argument (mocking McCain for being crippled. Seriously? Are we that level of scum here?) - a trend that has led to the forum being treated as a kind of emotional punching bag by those here who are for some reason unable or unwilling to act like adults. A number of times posters don't read the article they are commenting on (the Robin Leech article explicitly rebuking the thread created about it), or if they do don't understand it at all (the McCain Mutiny thread springs to mind). Despite the fact that the issues under discussion in that forum are complex, nuanced, and anything but black and white, No-True-Scotsman bandwagon hopping is the most common post style one sees there. Ignorance is routinely treated as strength there - one needed understand what the hell one is talking about, nor possess anything close to a rational argument, so long as you can wear the other person down. Ignore the fact that those trained and experienced in the field are refuting you (the Comfort), just yell like hell.
The rampant me-too-ing in that forum has been called to the carpet here, and it should be. But sadly, the worst posters I see in there usually have silver bars under their names. Even if the moderators of that forum are overwhelmed, the fact is that those selected to be community leaders need to stand up and be leaders rather then shit throwing rabble rousers. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
howevver Elite earned most of his "failboy" cred for his postings in the motivational posters section. usually stuff that won't show, bandwidth theft subs, and bandwitch exceeded subs. still this is a case of two wrongs not making a right. Elite tends to spam with pics, and is a bit stupid about where he "barrows" his spamunition from....
----edit----
can I claim IP for the phrase "Spamunition"?
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Apparently a certain "douche monger of a Senator" has upset Mr. Coffee by actually attempting to enforce board rules fairly.
This is like the second time some douche monger of a Senator has said I've got a vendetta. Seriously, people... Hav's a sociopath, Flagg's Emo, and I've got vendettas coming out the yang against half the fucking board. Can someone pass out some coloring books and crayons or some shit to the Senate so they have something to do with their fucking time?
You know, I never particularly considered myself a Legalist, but just for giggles, let's see how many rules this mini-rant plows through:
AR1. If you have a complaint about another member, contact one of the moderators of the forum in which the alleged offense took place. Do not be a "back-seat moderator". Please note that this complaint should reference one of our rules, not the rules at xyz forum which you prefer over our rules.
AR2. If you strongly disagree with our forum's policies, either keep it to yourself or leave. This is our forum, these are our rules, and if you don't like it, there are plenty of other forums out there. If you insist on staying and ranting about how you much you object to our rules, we will make you leave.
AR3. Pursuant to the previous rule, if you are upset at the mods for enforcing our rules, either complain privately to an admin (who may or may not ridicule your complaint), keep your trap shut, or leave.
AR4. If you have a complaint about the whole board, you are obviously unhappy here, so leave. Complaints like "so this is the way you do things at SD.Net" and "the prevailing attitude here seems to be" etc clearly indicate that you dislike something about our entire board culture and you should leave. If you persist on staying and acting like this, we will make you leave.
Not too bad for a three-sentence post.
Apparently, if I'm reading this thread right, not only does the Senate need more things to do with our time, we're superfluous to the board, we shouldn't open discussion about what goes on in Testing, and we have a vendetta of our own against the Testing forum.
Well, I think we've just been handed a little something to do with our time, wrapped up in a nice little package complete with bow. I'd like to note, this is the kind of behavior for which we've banned people in the past, and though I feel in this case that may be a tad extreme, I still think some sanctions are called for. What say you?
Oh for the love of Pete. Kuja, calm down. The Senate does spend a lot of time talking about stupid crap. Let's not forget that at one point we had people arguing to shut down testing for the safety of the board.
It's pretty clear that there are members of the Senate who have a rather extreme dislike for testing and the residents thereof. People have made that clear, and most of it, from my point of view, has been sour grapes, more or less.
As for our position in the board, you know what? We are superfluous. We are, at best, an early warning system for the mods to identify problem posters and in some cases a moderating area by which we debate over the fates of those that have angered us in some way. At worst, we're a bunch of pompous asses who talk shit day in and day out. We are advisers only, we hold no real power on this board, save what little the Mike (and by extension, the rest of the admins) give us.
However I would like to point out that most Senators have the basic decorum to not initiate serious debates in matters which they are currently embroiled, and I seem to remember seeing you get stuck in early on in this one. It's one thing to bring a matter before the Senate for review, it's another thing to bring up something you got involved in.
Bottom line, you should have asked someone else to broach the subject and then you should have added your two cents. It's may or may not be part of the Senate bylaws, but it is certainly poor form and you should have known better. While this may well be a case for review by the Senate, that you brought it here after getting embroiled in the mess taints the whole thing. The fact that other events of a more serious nature remain unresolved just puts it in a worse light.
Now I highly recommend that you remove yourself from the thread Coffee started and take some time to get some perspective on this. Nothing is going to be gained by you posting antagonistically in both arenas, and while it may be your admin-given right to do so, there is a fine line between what can be done and what should be done. As I recall, that's what this entire debate is about. You think they should show some restraint, so you should lead by example.
Ender had a good point. We are nominally leaders of this community, and like it or not, other people look at us for an example. If we behave badly, we send the message that bad behavior is okay for everyone. Now I don't mean we should refrain from cursing or insulting people per se, this doesn't need to be a tea party, but we need to apply the standards of the boards to everyone, ourselves included, and if any of us step out of line, we should be called on it. Let's remember that the me-too brigade will learn from us and we owe it to them, as a general rule, to try and at least set a decent example. If we're all at each other's throats and debating poorly because we're furious, it lends little to the overall level of discourse.
Now obviously this is Mike's board and we play by his rules, anything I say here is just noise unless he agrees, but I think we do need to set an example. I personally don't go to N&P often, and when I do, I rarely post. Part of the reason is the atmosphere. Some of it can't be helped, people get riled up about politics, that's just nature, but we can and should put limits on how much we let strong emotions carry us from the ideal of debate.
One thing which may help (and honestly, I don't know at this point, but hell, it's a thought) is round up the people with "vendettas" and offer them a chance to air their grievances publicly in the Coliseum. If we open the subjects to a structured debate, we have given them the chance to argue it out and get it over with, rather than getting lost in a maelstrom of activity. At the end of the debate (agreed on lengths by both sides), we can open the thread to voting by the board to get a general idea of what they think, with final verdict, of course, coming from the Emperor.
Now that may not solve anything, but it's better than nothing, which seems to be all we have right now.
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep. The Realm of Confusion
"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying." SilCore Wiki! Come take a look!
First of all, since I can't access the thread linked to in the OP here I haven't a fucking clue what the fuss is about. I have no way to know if X is pissing on Y or trying to buttfuck Q's boytoy R.
Second, names were named. It would be helpful to either see substantiation of there being a "vendetta" or "pile-on" that weren't potentially out-of-context quotes. Mr. Coffee in particular seem upset at this, but for all I know others are peeved, too. Fine, if they fucked up let's see the evidence so we can point to it and say "See - this where you pissed on the carpet. Here's the rolled up newspaper across your nose. Don't do that again." I see accusations, but the quotes offered here don't strike me as inherently worse than some of the shit I've seen elsewhere. I fail to see why we should hold Testing to a higher standard when, after all, it's in many ways the forum dumpster.
I don't know why everyone is cranked up so tight lately, but there have been a lot more short tempers and thin skins of late (in my opinion). I don't exclude myself from that, I've been pretty bitchy of late myself, but that might be why I stopped hanging out in some threads. I come here for amusement, not to get consistently pissed off.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
I support a permban against each of the perpetrators of that thread: MoC, Darth Nostril, Buddha, Mr. Coffee, and chitterling. They are marginal users, who mostly spam Testing, and occasionally foul up other forums. When have you actually seen them debate, or post a productive thread in, say, SLAM, or even N&P? We have spammers, a religious nut (we have a Jesus Christ on this board, but it's a joke account. Buddha is for real), and Mr. Coffee, whose greatest contribution to this board is writing the funnies in the HoS (last updated in June).
They have conveniently gathered in one thread. I suggest we carpet-bomb the area, and significantly improve the signal-to-noise ratio on the board.
If permbanning won't work, we can always tempban them for a few months with the option to extend it indefinitely if we find we like it.
I am of the opinion that Testing, by its very nature, is antithetical to the character and purpose of the rest of the board. Very few of the threads created or deposited there amount to anything other than collections of nonsensical ramblings, pointless insults, and poorly-conceived images. However, I do think that Testing serves a particular role; beyond its original and very occasional involvement in actually testing signatures, avatars, and the like, it also exists as a receptacle for threads posted elsewhere that, while frivolous, may be amusing or interesting enough not to warrant immediate deletion.
Taking this into consideration, I am inclined to believe that Testing cannot be viewed like any other part of the board. SDN's standard rules and regulations, beyond those dealing with legality and similarly pressing issues, cannot be applied to threads that are fundamentally lacking in content and reasoned thought. Either Testing should be "flushed" fully beyond the notice of the Senate, where its petty internet posturing and flippant drivel will not interfere with the more sensible portions of the board, or it should be utterly eliminated and replaced with a section restricted to the aforementioned "testing" activities and nothing else. Obviously, it is beyond the mandate of the Senate to follow through on the latter course, but it is within the realm of our power to be discriminating in the topics that we take up for review.
