Myth Busters does the Moon Landing

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Myth Busters does the Moon Landing

Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Cool
Ever since man went to the moon—and still today as America plans to go back (via DIY, NASA or the next president) —there have been those who said we never actually made it there in the first place. Instead, they say, the whole moon landing was a massive conspiracy perpetrated by NASA using elaborate sets and special effects. And they support their claims with what they believe to be irregularities in photography and film taken on the moon.

Sounds like a case for MythBusters and special-effects gurus Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, who take on the most popular lunar conspiracy theories tonight at 9 pm on the Discovery Channel with the help of a vintage NASA camera, a purpose-built rig and an airplane.

For Hyneman and Savage, taking on the moon landing conspiracy was a no-brainer. "They've been on our radar for a long time, because it's something everybody knows about, and it's not something you can go there yourself to check it out—at least not very easily," Hyneman told PM last week. "When we started to look into all the suspicions that were there, there was a lot of meat for us to dig into. Especially since it's sort of centered on special effects—that's our daily work, so we got into it." Though other people have tackled the moon conspiracy, "We felt that we couldn't put it to bed until we put our own stamp on it," Savage says.

After identifying conspiracy theories from several major categories, including faked photos and film footage, the duo began researching NASA's huge store of information, a challenge in and of itself. "NASA has been incredibly open-source about the missions to the moon, about every scrap of information down to the material in the astronaut's socks," Savage says. "So you have a tremendous amount of material to choose from to make sure that your replication is entirely accurate. We had probably a greater breadth of information than we usually have to achieve the replication. But that also means that you've got to be a little bit more picky, and choose carefully so that you're not overwhelming yourself with details that aren't actually germane to the myth you're doing."

Theorists claim that famous photos snapped on the moon have irregularities that prove a conspiracy—including shadows that don't run parallel (allegedly indicative of multiple light sources rather than the single source provided by the sun), and an illuminated astronaut standing in the shadow of the moon lander (theorists say that's impossible without a fill light). To see if they could duplicate the photos, Hyneman and Savage constructed a miniature model set—complete with a 1/76th-scale model of the lunar lander and portland cement mixed with black powder to mimic the moon's surface.

First, they looked at the parallel shadow photo, lighting the model's flat surface with a single source of light and taking a shot of the scene with a Hasselblad camera designed specifically for NASA's moon missions. Sure enough, the shadows were parallel—but the Mythbusters didn't stop there. When they added contours and topography to the model moon surface, then lit it with a light source, the shadows in the resulting photo looked far off parallel.

When Hyneman and Savage tested the second photograph, they built a larger lunar lander to fit a 1/6-size model of Neil Armstrong from Adam's collection, and mixed their own regolith, or moon powder, from portland cement and charcoal powder. That allowed them to duplicate the NASA photograph—no fill light necessary, because regolith is reflective. That's how we can see the moon at night: Sunlight bounces off the moon and back at us. Real regolith has a reflectivity index between 7 and 10 percent; the MythBusters' concoction had an albedo of 8 percent.

Though that was enough to consider the photo conspiracy busted, it also showed that models could be used to mimic the surface of the moon—a fact that didn't escape Hyneman and Savage. "They were looking at these little artifacts of these photographs of the moon landings and saying they were fake because of some little thing that they spotted," Hyneman says. "We weren't going in there saying that any particular thing is absolutely not possible to fake. We were going in and saying that what we were seeing wasn't necessarily faked based on the kinds of details that theorists point out as evidence that the photos were faked. We set up some camera lights and everything else that indicated a single-point source of light, as in the sun, and yes, you could have faked that shot, or yet, it could have actually been the real case, depending on the terrain." According to Hyneman, this testing went much more quickly than on a typical MythBusters show—it only took the team about an hour to build the moon set.

Conspiracy theorists also claim that NASA faked the footage of the astronauts on the moon by filming them in a studio, then slowing down the film to mimic what movement would look like at moon's gravity (one-sixth of Earth's gravity). To test this third theory, Savage and Hyneman needed a bigger space than their shop, so they headed to the Alameda Naval Base. And, in typical MythBusters form, the first part of their trip was as much as fun as scientific: Savage put on a spacesuit costume from his personal collection (modified, of course, with some accurate details straight from NASA) then jumped, hopped and skipped while Jamie filmed him at 48 frames per second (fps). Next, they brought in a rig with a harness and bungee cords attached to a tracking system—built specifically for the test by Trapeze World—that would simulate the moon's gravity. After strapping in, Adam repeated the three movements while Jamie filmed him at 48 fps.

When they slowed down the footage to the regular 24 fps, they weren't impressed by what they found. While it was close, the slowed down footage wasn't an exact match with NASA's footage: The effort Adam needed to jump up and down moved his helmet in a way not seen in NASA's footage, and none of Adam's movements were quite as smooth as the astronauts'.

They could have stopped there, but Hyneman and Savage still weren't satisfied. So they suited up (Jamie, too!), added 180 pounds in chest and wrist weights and weight belts, then took to the air with ZeroG, a company that offers a weightless experience inside an airplane. To simulate the moon's gravity, the plane went into a series of parabolic arcs, as Savage was filmed at regular speed mimickiing the astronauts' movements. (Coming out of that weightlessness, the MythBusters say, was intense: You weigh twice what you do on Earth, a sensation Hyneman says felt "like your feet are going to climb out the top of your head.") And in that environment, he was able to accurately mimic the movements in NASA's footage. "That was the real feather in the cap in terms of making sure that we'd buttoned down every possible explanation," Savage says.

"And of course, we would have liked to button it down further by building our own rocket ship and going to the moon, but in general we only have about 10 days on the ground with an episode, and we figured we'd need at least two or three weeks to do that," Jamie laughs. (Both MythBusters say they'd go to the moon in a second—but building their own ship is part of the deal, as is building their own spacesuits. "I'd start with garbage bags and a lot of duct tape," Hyneman muses.)

Despite what they found, Savage doubts that anything on the show will have an effect on conspiracy theorists. "I think it's predictable what their stance will be: That we're just shills for the Man!" he laughs.

"We're not too out there to educate people about any specific thing necessarily so much as we are to encourage critical and scientific thinking," Hyneman says. "And regardless of whether conspiracy theorists are right or wrong in their conclusions, it's good to think carefully about what is told and what is out there and make up your own mind. That's all we are really pro: making sure that you just don't swallow everything that you're fed, and look at it clearly and critically."

The bottom line, Savage insists, is that we went to the moon. "The fact is, science isn't about coming up with the ultimate truth," he says, "because there is no such thing. It's about looking at the evidence and coming to conclusions. And if a conspiracy theorist wants to come to the most complicated possible conclusion based on the evidence, what we've done in this episode is shown that in fact going to the moon is a simpler solution than the conspiracy theory. And given Occam's razor and general scientific principle, that's the most likely explanation for all the evidence we have that we went to the moon: that we actually did."
The Mythbuster's blog has some fun commentary too. I got a kick out of Adam's review of the Lost 4th season finale, especially his commentary on the ship's explosion

Though the explosion looked about right in terms of size, it was a bit slow—high explosives happen at over 20,000 ft. per second. Plus, any explosion that you would survive happens silently—you see it before you hear it. But movies and TV never do that. Plus, C4 lets off with a much more concussive ka-whump than they ever are able to show in the movies.
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Post by LadyTevar »

I've moved this out of Testing, because the Mythbusters did a fantastic job busting the Moon Landing Conspiracy. If you didn't see it, go find it online!
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Post by The Spartan »

It was quite good. I kind of like that Jamie's attitude was something along the lines of barely restrained, "You guys are idiots but I'll show you anyways." :lol:

I especially liked the shadow and low-grav simulation work they did.
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Post by Stuart »

I agree, it was an excellent show. What made it all the more so was that the humor of the staff as they destroyed myth after myth made their demolition all the more devastating. It wasn't just "we can destroy this myth" it was "we can destroy this myth and we don't even have to try very hard to do it"

Sadly, they're right though. It won't make any difference. the Apollo Hoaxers will carry on with their garbage as if nothing ahd ever happened.
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Post by cosmicalstorm »

What can be done is to slower the recruitment of new generations of conspiracy theorists, but its almost impossible to actually drag believers away from their faith using logic. They already have defense mechanisms for these events, in this case they will simply implicate the Mythbusters team into the conspiracy like they did with Popular Mechanic when they ran the 9-11 piece.
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Post by Knife »

I enjoyed their reconstruction efforts for the still photography and the manipulation of the shadows (or perceived anyways).

The vacuum bit was fun too, if extremely obvious. "Yeah, take that you conspiracy theorists."
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Post by Wyrm »

The most damning evidence against the moon landing conspiracy nuts are the Russians. The Russians were watching the moon landing too, and if they found any irregularity in the footage or telemetry, such as the Saturn V not lifting off from Cape Kennedy, the reports from the command module on the way and back coming from the right points in the journey, ect, they would've called us on it and embarrassed the shit out of us. And they had plenty of motive to do it, too.
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Post by starslayer »

With the non-parallel shadows, although Adam and Jamie demonstrated that topography can cause this, that actually is not necessary. You can do it on perfectly flat ground. Because the camera squashes a 3D field onto a plane, the perspective changes, and it looks like the shadows are not parallel, even though they are in real life. Oh, and you can tell it is one light source as well because, as is plainly obvious, multiple shadows are not cast.
Wyrm wrote:The most damning evidence against the moon landing conspiracy nuts are the Russians. The Russians were watching the moon landing too, and if they found any irregularity in the footage or telemetry, such as the Saturn V not lifting off from Cape Kennedy, the reports from the command module on the way and back coming from the right points in the journey, ect, they would've called us on it and embarrassed the shit out of us. And they had plenty of motive to do it, too.
All true, but the HBs just say that NASA sent a robot to orbit the Moon, and carefully orchestrated all the transmissions so that it only appeared that the astronauts were really going to the Moon. The Saturn V launched, and then a separate capsule containing the astronauts detached/was launched separately and they faked being aboard the robotic orbiter. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me either.
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Post by Wyrm »

starslayer wrote:All true, but the HBs just say that NASA sent a robot to orbit the Moon, and carefully orchestrated all the transmissions so that it only appeared that the astronauts were really going to the Moon. The Saturn V launched, and then a separate capsule containing the astronauts detached/was launched separately and they faked being aboard the robotic orbiter.
The problem is that robot probe would need to be essentially a carbon-copy of the Apollo spacecraft in and of itself, in order to get the mass/acceleration/burn amplitude relation right (the Russians would've known if the 'robot' was too light to carry three astronauts to the moon and back; they were working on the same problem). In order to pull off the hoax, they'd need to be capable of sending the Apollo spacecraft to the moon and back, which eliminates the need for a hoax in the first place. Occam's razor.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me either.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

A moon-hoaxer on another board insists that the Soviets didn't have the technology to monitor or triangulate radio transmissions from space (and that NOBODY could localize signals from space), so the Apollo 11 just took off and orbited the earth for a few days.

He never really explained why or how nobody saw the damn thing with a pair of binoculars.
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Post by Isolder74 »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:A moon-hoaxer on another board insists that the Soviets didn't have the technology to monitor or triangulate radio transmissions from space (and that NOBODY could localize signals from space), so the Apollo 11 just took off and orbited the earth for a few days.

He never really explained why or how nobody saw the damn thing with a pair of binoculars.
The Soviets could track their own luner rovers tof the moon. QED
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Post by Fire Fly »

At the risk of sounding stupid, why not just use a telescope and look at the moon landing for our left over modules and trash?
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Moron #5 wrote:Are you serious, after like the 3rd season you could tell everything was reshot and scripted. Completely sold out. This is the governments way to try and further hide the fact that the moon landing was staged.
:roll:

I guess anytime someone comes along and shows these idiots just how wrong they are, they are obviously government spooks to keep you in line and hide the truth. I mean, of course the US government can keep everyone on Earth silent, but a few special individuals can come out and tell us the Truth!
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Fire Fly wrote:At the risk of sounding stupid, why not just use a telescope and look at the moon landing for our left over modules and trash?
Our telescopes aren't designed to look at stuff that small that's so close. Moon nutters just think its an excuse and say 'If the Hubble can find a galaxy, it can find a flag'.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Now thew Mythbusters need to build a replica of The WTC and show what a real demolition of them would look like. Either that or build and exact replica at 1/10 scale, Barbie scale, and fly model planes at scale with equivalent fuel in them.

That will stick it to them! We call all dream right?
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Post by Darmalus »

Isolder74 wrote:Now thew Mythbusters need to build a replica of The WTC and show what a real demolition of them would look like. Either that or build and exact replica at 1/10 scale, Barbie scale, and fly model planes at scale with equivalent fuel in them.

That will stick it to them! We call all dream right?
Wouldn't the Squared-Cubed rule make a 1/10th scale model behave differently than the real WTC, thus defeating the purpose of the effort?

On the Moon landing: Excellent! I am going to have to catch up on Mythbusters, seems I've missed some very good episodes.
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Post by Junghalli »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Our telescopes aren't designed to look at stuff that small that's so close. Moon nutters just think its an excuse and say 'If the Hubble can find a galaxy, it can find a flag'.
Didn't the Appollo missions leave some sort of reflector on the Moon that's been used in experiments with lasers, or something? I vaguely remember reading something along those lines somewhere.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Junghalli wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Our telescopes aren't designed to look at stuff that small that's so close. Moon nutters just think its an excuse and say 'If the Hubble can find a galaxy, it can find a flag'.
Didn't the Appollo missions leave some sort of reflector on the Moon that's been used in experiments with lasers, or something? I vaguely remember reading something along those lines somewhere.
Yes, they shot lasers at the reflectors on the show last night. Moon Hoaxers think that whenever an astronomer claims to be doing this, they are lying.
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Post by Molyneux »

Stuart wrote:Sadly, they're right though. It won't make any difference. the Apollo Hoaxers will carry on with their garbage as if nothing ahd ever happened.
True, but at least now there's a nice, relatively well-known source to point them at if they persist in their idiocy. Just shut them down with a link to the episode.
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Post by Ryushikaze »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Fire Fly wrote:At the risk of sounding stupid, why not just use a telescope and look at the moon landing for our left over modules and trash?
Our telescopes aren't designed to look at stuff that small that's so close. Moon nutters just think its an excuse and say 'If the Hubble can find a galaxy, it can find a flag'.
Nevermind that galaxies have a much larger cross section even at distance than the moon landing...
But yeah, all but one earth based telescope lacks the resolution to see that precisely on the moon, and atmospheric interference makes it useless too.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Since it hasn't been posted yet; I bring you the most appropriate response to "Moon Truthers" YouTube. Nice Job Buzz
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Post by Kitsune »

Well, I had a next door neighbor who believed that the moon landing was a hoax. Guess waht, they also were homeschooling their kids. Go figure?
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Post by starslayer »

Wyrm wrote:The problem is that robot probe would need to be essentially a carbon-copy of the Apollo spacecraft in and of itself, in order to get the mass/acceleration/burn amplitude relation right (the Russians would've known if the 'robot' was too light to carry three astronauts to the moon and back; they were working on the same problem). In order to pull off the hoax, they'd need to be capable of sending the Apollo spacecraft to the moon and back, which eliminates the need for a hoax in the first place. Occam's razor.
Wait wait wait, you think these guys accept Occam's Razor? If they did, they wouldn't be going on about the Moon landings being a hoax in the first place.

With regards to just pointing a scope at the landing sites, no telescope ever built (or even seriously proposed) has enough resolution to see the LEM. For comparison, the best resolution a ground-based telescope can get without adaptive optics (AO) is about 1 arcsecond, or about the size of a large football stadium at the distance of the Moon. The LEM is the size of a delivery van.

For completeness' sake, here's the calculation for the size aperture you'd need assuming a diffraction-limited telescope and a perfect AO system (i.e., no atmosphere):

The formula is α = (1.22λ)/D, where α is the angular resolution in radians, λ is the wavelength of the light, and D is the aperture. I'll use blue light (λ = 450 nm) for this calculation. Algebra gives D = (1.22λ)/α. The resolution required is found through trigonometry; I will assume the LEM is 4m wide.

The Moon is ~380,000 km away, or about 380,000,000 m away. Using that as our baseline, and half the LEM's width as our "opposite" side, tan(α/2)=(2 m)/(380,000,000 m). Some more algebra gives α = 2*tan^-1(1/190,000,000), or α = 1.05E-8 rad. This is 6E-7 degrees, or .002 arcseconds.

With this in hand, we can find D. D = (1.22*4.5E-7 m)/(1.05E-8 rad); D ~ 50 m, i.e., we'd need a 50 m wide telescope to see the LEM, never mind the flag or the footprints! And we'd need to get rid of that pesky atmosphere, likely through very very good AO.
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Post by Superboy »

About the laser reflectors on the moon, someone on the Mythbuster forums had this to say:
Brilliant Hoaxer wrote:i don't believe what happened on the episode with the laser was correct because... light is the fastest traveling thing around am i right, and the speed of light at which it travels takes 4 1/2 years to reach the sun correct? so it would take about maybe a few days to reach the moon at the speed of light. sounds about right....

so answer me this why did you get an instant response to the reflectors?

i doesn't make any sense.
I love these guys. If he were right about the time it takes for light to go from earth to the sun, and therefore the speed of light, there would be a one second delay before you see something happening just 1km away.

Not only that, but he thinks that all of the professional scientists behind this "hoax" didn't put any thought into what kind of delay they should fake. This guy thinks that he's outsmarted them all with his deductive reasoning.

And this is from only the third response about that myth. Those forums are just packed full of idiotic goodness.
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Post by Duckie »

He might be mistaken in that I do think it's about 4.5 seconds or 4.5 minutes or something for light to travel 1 AU, based on the 'if the sun vanished now, the planet would orbit an illusory sun for 4.5 (time units) until from our frame of reference it vanished' thing that gets pointed out whenever frames of reference are mentioned.
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