Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[CaptainChewbacca]

I am very interested in what the reaction will be when the USS Enterprise and an entire amphibious assault group gate in to heaven and starts launching airstrikes.

On the one hand, it'll be freaking badass. On the other... I kinda want to see humanity suffer some reversals/setbacks, so its not just an infinite march to victory. Bring on Palelabor!

[Eulogy]

The point of that section was to set up just how different heaven is from hell. It's not just a round two of much the same sort of battle, Heaven is a very different, much more complex and much more dangerous opponent. That little bit shows some of the key differences; for example that the Angels are much more aware of Earth's strengths and weaknesses than Satan was, that they have their own plans and objectives and that the rigid control from the top isn't there. That rigid, top-down control more than any other single factor is what killed Hell as a fighting force. Hell was ruled by fear, as soon as fear of Satan was replaced by a greater fear, the whole structure started coming apart at the seams.

Heaven's an entirely different proposition entirely and a much more dangerous one. Just one key difference; there's no fifth column of humans inside Heaven, no vast store of recruits waiting toe be armed and turn against their enslavers. So Michael is treating Yahweh with carefully-concealed but none the less amused contempt. That makes him much more dangerous, not less. He doesn't have to think about what might happen if an idea of his goes sour; he simply doesn't tell Yahweh what he's up to nor does he tell Yahweh if it fails.

That section was only slapstick on the surface, lurking underneath the humor was some very dark foreshadowing

Does that mean that Michael is going to get, er, creative? Angels with inspiration, imagination and information about us sounds like a recipe for superweapons and megadeath. If we're lucky, Michael or somebody similar will just try to engineer a coup or something that will hinder Heaven's efforts against us.

On the other... I kinda want to see humanity suffer some reversals/setbacks, so its not just an infinite march to victory. Bring on Palelabor!

If we do run into a slump, it won't be for long. We have billions of warriors, after all, and don't forget about the Hell-Heaven Gate!

[Fyrwulf]

Look at Africa: every time large shipments of arms go in, there's a spike in tribal violence and civil wars. Or Mexico, where more than 80% of their criminal gang weapons come from the US. You dump shitloads of weapons into an area, and violence follows. The fact is that demon/angel incursions are few in number, whereas the potential consequences of a large-scale individual arms buildup are much more severe and widespread.

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, maybe that spike in violence has more to do with the fact that they're uncivilized barbarians? And it's not like the gunrunners are just giving weapons away, they have to be ordered and payed for.

I know Americans are in love with sound-bite slogans like "guns don't kill people, people kill people", but that's exactly the sort of moronic black/white false dichotomy

The point of that phrase is that guns just don't up and shoot people. Generally speaking there's a finger on the trigger and a working brain to control that finger. A firearm is just a tool. A very effective killing tool, but just a tool.

that gets them into all kinds of trouble with economic, health, education, and criminal policies.

How does the prevalence of weapons have anything to do with the moronic policies of incompetent politicians?

[Wyrm]

That section was only slapstick on the surface, lurking underneath the humor was some very dark foreshadowing

I take this to mean that the real fight begins now, and to expect it to be a more even-handed grind betwixt the two sides rather than a blunt-force pwnage by human/demon forces.

[Junghalli]

If we do run into a slump, it won't be for long. We have billions of warriors, after all, and don't forget about the Hell-Heaven Gate!

If they're smart they'll shut that thing down.

[Col. Crackpot]

If we do run into a slump, it won't be for long. We have billions of warriors, after all, and don't forget about the Hell-Heaven Gate!

If they're smart they'll shut that thing down.

Why? Right now that gate is Humanity's ONLY way into heaven. On the other hand, heaven has an the ability to enter our world on a whim. To close it is to cut off humanity's only offensive avenue. That is suicidal.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If we do run into a slump, it won't be for long. We have billions of warriors, after all, and don't forget about the Hell-Heaven Gate!

If they're smart they'll shut that thing down.

Why? Right now that gate is Humanity's ONLY way into heaven. On the other hand, heaven has an the ability to enter our world on a whim. To close it is to cut off humanity's only offensive avenue. That is suicidal.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about heaven shutting the gate. At any rate, it'd be a nightmare to try and get through, we'd be attacking heaven at its' strongest point.

[Col. Crackpot]

Why? Right now that gate is Humanity's ONLY way into heaven. On the other hand, heaven has an the ability to enter our world on a whim. To close it is to cut off humanity's only offensive avenue. That is suicidal.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about heaven shutting the gate. At any rate, it'd be a nightmare to try and get through, we'd be attacking heaven at its' strongest point.[/quote]

napalm on a cart. wheel it through. see what happens.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If you'll recall, a lesser demon had to crawl on his hands and knees through a twisting tunnel to get to the Heavengate. Unless we just nuke the thing to enlarge it, we're not getting there easily. Plus, its in a very remote location surrounded by the equivalent of the Great Wall of China.

[gtg947h]

nuke on a cart. wheel it through. see what happens.

Fixed it for you.

[Col. Crackpot]

nuke on a cart. wheel it through. see what happens.

Fixed it for you.

actually i deliberately left the nuke out. bad side effects.

[Peptuck]

I am very interested in what the reaction will be when the USS Enterprise and an entire amphibious assault group gate in to heaven and starts launching airstrikes.

On the one hand, it'll be freaking badass. On the other... I kinda want to see humanity suffer some reversals/setbacks, so its not just an infinite march to victory. Bring on Palelabor!

Indeed. Victory isn't as sweet (or in the audience's case, as fun to read about) if that victory has never been in doubt.

[EdBecerra]

Frankly, it's a lousy idea to encourage massive weapons proliferation here. What you want is better-armed police, not a populace armed to the teeth with heavy weapons.

Look at Africa: every time large shipments of arms go in, there's a spike in tribal violence and civil wars. Or Mexico, where more than 80% of their criminal gang weapons come from the US. You dump shitloads of weapons into an area, and violence follows. The fact is that demon/angel incursions are few in number, whereas the potential consequences of a large-scale individual arms buildup are much more severe and widespread.

I beg to differ, but I expect that's because you and I see life somewhat differently.

I believe the solution to warlords is even more guns - a heavily armed society is a polite and respectful society.

With one important note:

That society has to go through a period where the stupid, the blindly criminal, and those who are simply rude yet fearless die at the hands of their neighbors.

This has happened several times in history, most notably in the former Kingdom of Montenegro. (long story, if you're interested, I'll recount it later.)

In the novel "Lifter" (1986), author Crawford Kilian once noted through one of his characters that ANYTHING worthwhile must be paid for in blood. The US highway system takes anywhere from twenty to fifty thousand lives a year, depending on the year in question, yet we're unwilling to make it safer, because that safety would cost large amounts of cash. The 50,000 dead a year is actually cheaper.

50,000 dead, cheaper? - that sounds cold. But divide by 50 states, that's only 1,000 dead per state. Divide by 365, and that's only 2.74 people per day per state. The average American thinks - when they do think about it - that these are acceptable odds, and MUCH better than having to put up with higher taxes.

So we vote down safety-related tax increases, and prefer to take our risks. After all, less than 3 people a day? Can't POSSIBLY happen to me, it ALWAYS happens to the other guy! No more taxes to pay to keep the other guy safe, dammit!

(Remember, that's why America came in to being - tax protests!)

This did happen in the old west, you know. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe, it was a rather peaceful place, discounting the Indian wars and the occasional range war. Being rude and impolite in an old western town had the odd effect of having the entire town draw on you, rather like that famous scene at the end of the Blues Brothers, set in the tax office.

A warlord might think he's the baddest thing on two feet - until a few hundred annoyed citizens draw on him and show him, just with the look in their eyes, that they're no more bothered by killing him than they are bothered by stepping on a bug.

The warlord in Africa situation? In my opinion, and mine only, it's caused - in part! - by the victims being unable (no guns of their own) and unwilling (afraid for their lives) to fight back.

Would they fight back if they WERE armed? I don't know. Some people ARE natural sheep, they won't fight back even when you're slitting their throats with a knife. And I honestly don't know what to do about that. (Aside from finding a way of testing for the condition, then somehow making it both politically, financially and socially possible to put such people in a nice safe home somewhere, where they can still lead happy, productive lives. And I don't ever expect that to happen short of a total war and complete restructuring of society.)

Myself, I'm more like a porcupine. Heavily armed, but I won't fire the first shot. You're safe from me if you leave me alone. That's my philosophy. And I believe the human race could use a lot more porcupines and a lot fewer sheep and wolves. But that's just my opinion. And I've had bad opinions before. *shrug*

There IS a way around it, but you've already said you dislike it. Thunderdome style. Dump a shitload of weapons on a population, and eventually the extremely warlike (wolves) and the extremely pacifistic (sheep) will all die or be killed, leaving you with a population that's heavily armed, polite, respectful, and very dangerous (the porcupines).

It'll simply cost you in a lot of innocent blood.

But then again, everything worthwhile does.

Which just goes to show that life is seriously unfair.

As for better armed police? Show me a man who trusts his local police force, and I'll show you someone P. T. Barnum would take for every dollar they had. Sure, there are many people who've become police officers because they had high-minded ideals when they first signed up. With time, they become jaded, or corrupt, or keep their ideals - which is just another term for "Wow, he's a nutter, isn't he?" (Who was it that said that if you weren't idealistic as a youth, you had no heart, and if you weren't heartless in old age, you had no brains?) So you have to choose between officers who are cynical and jaded, or cynical and corrupt, or who are so attached to their idealism, they're dangerously detached from the real world.

Incidentally, that's why volunteer firemen make me uneasy - risking their lives every day against an uncaring, uncompromising enemy that will NEVER go away, for a pittance? I deeply admire their courage, and worry about their obsession. Me, I'd have my hand out in front of the home owner, demanding triple-extra-double-overtime pay, or I'll just spray water on the fire from the nice safe OUTSIDE, far away from the flames, thank you very much...

Ed.
(an anarcho-libertarian of the L. Neil Smith school, but you've probably already guessed that, no?)

[Col. Crackpot]

Oh Ed... you have no idea what you have done...

[The Vortex Empire]

I smell a large scale debate/flamewar, with potential for the Colosseum.

[Peptuck]

*braces for shitstorm*

[EdBecerra]

Indeed. Victory isn't as sweet (or in the audience's case, as fun to read about) if that victory has never been in doubt.

Well, I'll grant you the bit about the obvious, but I've never personally found victory to be sweeter if it was ever in doubt.

I find fixed fights, guaranteed victories, and the opportunity to gloat over the losers much more appealing. And I enjoy reading about victories (ie, curbstomps) where I know who wins in advance, I just want to see how CUNNING the author can be about how he does it.

But that's just me. I'm the sort of person who reads the last chapter of a murder mystery first, then once I know whodunnit, THEN I can relax and enjoy the story unfolding, more interested in HOW the kill was made, and how the killer was caught. It's the mechanics that interest me.

I know plenty of people who've told me "I could never do that! Once I know who the murder is, the novel's over for me I can't enjoy it! It's the possibility that the killer might get away (or remain unknown!) that's entertaining for me! The MYSTERY of WHO, not how!"

Never quite been able to grasp that point of view myself. *shrugs* But to each their own.

Jigsaw puzzles, perhaps. You already know what they look like from the photo on the box, the true fun lies in putting the pieces together. (by that same token, those bizzaro puzzles where you GET no photo, and are working blind, annoy me to no end.)

"There's no accounting for tastes."
-- latin proverb.

Ed.

[EdBecerra]

I smell a large scale debate/flamewar, with potential for the Colosseum.

No, because I don't intend to get into it any further. I've stated what I believe, and why I believe it, with no intention of starting an argument. There's no reason for me to continue, now that you know my position on the subject.

Am I right or wrong in my opinion? That's for history to judge, and ONLY for history to judge. And by the time history passes judgment on me, we'll all be dead.

(And even then, people will grumble - historians still have flamewars over China's first emperor and he's dead thousands of years. *sigh*)

Ed.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As for better armed police? Show me a man who trusts his local police force, and I'll show you someone P. T. Barnum would take for every dollar they had. Sure, there are many people who've become police officers because they had high-minded ideals when they first signed up. With time, they become jaded, or corrupt, or keep their ideals - which is just another term for "Wow, he's a nutter, isn't he?" (Who was it that said that if you weren't idealistic as a youth, you had no heart, and if you weren't heartless in old age, you had no brains?) So you have to choose between officers who are cynical and jaded, or cynical and corrupt, or who are so attached to their idealism, they're dangerously detached from the real world.

Aren't you the same pinnacle of moral fiber who won't break his 'word' to save innocent lives? What the hell happened to you to skew your morality and worldview so badly? I actually LIKE cops, because they do a job I can't and on any given day some nutbag could blow their face off in the middle of a routine traffic stop. I'm also not likely to get scammed out of my money, either.

Can't a cop just be a decent guy trying to do a decent job?

[gtg947h]

It's the mechanics that interest me.

Indeed... and also, not sitting there trying to keep track of what's going on allows you to focus on catching the details. I tend to enjoy a movie more the second time around for this and the reasons you mentioned.

As for better armed police? Show me a man who trusts his local police force, and I'll show you someone P. T. Barnum would take for every dollar they had.

I actually LIKE cops, because they do a job I can't and on any given day some nutbag could blow their face off in the middle of a routine traffic stop. I'm also not likely to get scammed out of my money, either.

Can't a cop just be a decent guy trying to do a decent job?

I think Ed is referring to those types who blindly and absolutely trust their local law enforcement.
Most LEOs out there are good, decent people. Yeah, they might get jaded with regard to some things, but overall they do honestly try to do right. But corrupt, dirty cops do exist, rare though they may be. So, though we may trust the police, we can't entirely let our guard down or turn a blind eye. "Trust but verify" seems appropriate.

There are also the types that wander on through life completely oblivious to their surroundings, completely trusting the police to protect them 24/7/365 and refusing to take any measure to avoid trouble or (more commonly) to defend themselves. And while most LE departments do a pretty good job given their resources, it is socially and physically impossible for them to stop everything. Those who believe otherwise are the fools Mr. Barnum would rob blind.

[Guardsman Bass]

There IS a way around it, but you've already said you dislike it. Thunderdome style. Dump a shitload of weapons on a population, and eventually the extremely warlike (wolves) and the extremely pacifistic (sheep) will all die or be killed, leaving you with a population that's heavily armed, polite, respectful, and very dangerous (the porcupines).

It'll simply cost you in a lot of innocent blood.

Somalia begs to differ, along with the Mexican gangs. What happens is that the stupid wolves get themselves killed, along with a lot of innocent and/or unlucky people, and you get stuck with the smart wolves who merely use their power to extort you, and who reach unstable agreements with each other that frequently turn into turf wars.

It doesn't surprise me that you think this is a good thing. You put a ton of stock on your word and "honor" ("honor" in the old sense rather than in the "trustworthy" sense) - I can imagine you telling someone in this gun-happy paradise "You have insulted my honor, sir. I challenge you to a duel!"

A warlord might think he's the baddest thing on two feet - until a few hundred annoyed citizens draw on him and show him, just with the look in their eyes, that they're no more bothered by killing him than they are bothered by stepping on a bug.

Of course, at that point he simply has his thugs shoot back at your citizens, then go on a rampage of rapine and plunder in your town. Enjoy.

The warlord in Africa situation? In my opinion, and mine only, it's caused - in part! - by the victims being unable (no guns of their own) and unwilling (afraid for their lives) to fight back.

Again, Somalia begs to differ. All of them are heavily armed (by Somalian standards).

[Firethorn]

I beg to differ, but I expect that's because you and I see life somewhat differently.

Ed, you know you're a philosopher, right?

I have much the same philosophy, though I'm not so much a hedgehog, but a sheepdog.

For those of you who are wondering what that means - it means that while I look like a sheep, I'll actually go into the kak to protect the sheep.

The protection Ed provides, as a hedgehog, is ancillary, through the reduction in the wolf population when one mistakenly attacks him*. Me, I'll actually try to get the bastard.

And yes, I'd much prefer more hedgehogs like Ed. Backup against the wolves is always welcome.

Of course, personally I can get all philosophical about how all civilization are rooted in the usage of force.

*Note: Sometimes the hedgehog/sheepdog wins, sometimes the wolf does. Generally speaking though, the hog/dog has the advantage. The wolf needs to win every time, the defender doesn't.

[Firethorn]

Somalia begs to differ, along with the Mexican gangs. What happens is that the stupid wolves get themselves killed, along with a lot of innocent and/or unlucky people, and you get stuck with the smart wolves who merely use their power to extort you, and who reach unstable agreements with each other that frequently turn into turf wars.

You can't be extorted if you don't allow yourself to be extorted. And no, not ALL Somalians are armed.

I can imagine you telling someone in this gun-happy paradise "You have insulted my honor, sir. I challenge you to a duel!"

Imagine all you like. Personally, I'm going to think long and hard before I put my life up on the line for words. Much better to be polite, honest, and straight dealing.

Of course, at that point he simply has his thugs shoot back at your citizens, then go on a rampage of rapine and plunder in your town. Enjoy.

It's generally a given that the community a warlord/gang/thugs prey upon outnumber the thugs by a large margin. If all the citizens are armed, the warlord is going to be outgunned. Even if he isn't, if the citizens are willing and able to put up a good fight, he's unlikely to attack.

Why? Recently there was a story in the news - a small dog chased off a bear and her two cubs. Now, a number of people were surprised at this. They expected the bear to win in any fight.

Thing is, and mama knows it, is that any fight is a risk. Her job is to raise her cubs, not get in fights. Sure, she might be reasonably sure of winning said fight, but what about tomorrow?

Thugs don't grow on trees. Skilled thugs take training to develop. If the community isn't willing to let them prey upon them, and have the means to resist, the warlord will quickly find himself with pyrrhic victories. Soon, he won't have enough thugs to be a warlord.

Again, Somalia begs to differ. All of them are heavily armed (by Somalian standards).

Proof? I'm reminded of the scene in Lord of War with the refugee camp - it wasn't so much the weapons that were the problem, it was that they were in the wrong hands. It's still true today that more people have been killed by blades than bullets.

[EdBecerra]

Aren't you the same pinnacle of moral fiber who won't break his 'word' to save innocent lives? What the hell happened to you to skew your morality and worldview so badly? I actually LIKE cops, because they do a job I can't and on any given day some nutbag could blow their face off in the middle of a routine traffic stop. I'm also not likely to get scammed out of my money, either.

Can't a cop just be a decent guy trying to do a decent job?

Yes, they could. But why would they? That's what I don't understand. Why do a miserable, low-paid job when you could find better work elsewhere? That means a certain level of ... I'm not quite sure what. Faith in your fellow man? Trust in your fellow man? Damn, I'm honestly fumbling for terms here, because though I know how I feel, it's hard to describe to someone else. It's difficult to describe something I've lived with since before I can remember - you can know something so deeply, you've never had need of words.

Yes, a cop faces the chance a nutbag could blow them away in the middle of a routine traffic stop. Which is why anyone I'd feel comfortable being around would say "Screw this, they don't pay me enough to risk my life" and walk away to find a better paying job in the private security sector.

Someone willing to risk their lives, daily, for a pittance, makes me nervous. WHY are they doing it? What's in it for them? What are they getting out of it? Where's their motivation? If I don't understand them, I can't predict them. I can't predict their actions. Which means I can't prepare defenses against them.

When I do understand a person's motivations, that allows me to make contingency plans against the event that I may find myself in conflict with them. And with plans in place, I feel better. Someone once said "Good walls make good neighbors." I find that philosophy deeply appealing. Don't quite know WHY I do, I just do. (I suspect a good shrink would have a field day with my psyche...)

Hope for the best, but EXPECT the worst. Just like the Deteriorata says, y'know?

Deteriorata

Ed.

[Junghalli]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about heaven shutting the gate.

Yes, that's what I meant.