Traviss' Clone Wars novel questions

[Darth Nostril]

I'm so glad I told my 12-year-old brother "You can get that Clone Wars novel if you want, but I think the author is crazy. She has some weird idea that one clone can kill like a million goddamn battle droids." "Oh. It sounds like she played my Republic Commando video game too much." "Yes she did, Matt. Yes she did. She also thinks Mandalorians are as important in the galaxy as Jedi and Sith." He gives the book a weird look and sets it back on the shelf.

I really don't want that crazy bitch getting royalties from anyone if I can help it.

Well played, even just one intelligent mind convinced of Traviss' moronity is a not insignificant victory.

[Master of Ossus]

No, a rough estimate based off their size folded up.

I think that that would indicate they're maybe .4 meters cubed. When they're folded up, they're barely bigger than the torso.

It is also a density still less then that of water, and we see them walk through the water. Not only are they heavy enough to sink, they mass enough that the currents don't send them cruising downstream.

As long as they're not sealed they should be able to sink even if they're very light compared with their overall volume. I agree with you about the current, but I think I read somewhere that the droids are also able to swim (!), and were able to find the Gungan cities, that way. I believe we also saw swimming droids in Clone Wars, during the Kit Fisto fight on Mon Calamari. That would give them a density somewhere around that of a human, which reconciles well with the TPM scenes, earlier. Since the clones and other people aren't being pushed around by the currents, either, I actually think that makes sense.

Quite frankly, reconciling the end of TPM and the river attack of ROTS is a real head scratcher. If the things were only 80 kgs, then they are about the density of cork. Which is better then balsa wood, but still bizarre. It isn't that I think everything must be massive and ultra dense; evidence that materials are low density would be beneficial for crunching numbers for ships. But in this case it really doesn't make sense. IG-88 was much more massive then he looked as well IIRC.

IG-88 also has lots and lots of features that the droids don't have, and was clearly designed differently. He was, though, massive enough to threaten to buckle the floors on Executor when he was moving around.

[Sir Sirius]

In order to get a density of 150 kg/m^3 to a 45 kg droid, the droids volume would have to be 0.3 m^3. That seems like an awfully high figure. Consider that the density of humans is only slightly less then that of water (since we are actually, by mass, mostly water), a human with a volume of 0.3 m^3 would weight just short of 300 kg. And that the spindly battledroids don't look anywhere near as umm... rotund as a 300 kg human of their height.

PS. The symbols, with or with out a prefix, of SI-units are never pluralized by adding an "s" to the end. Doing so can lead to some confusion since, as properly read, "kgs" means kilogram*second (=rate of change in mass), not kilograms.

[nightmare]

The assumption is a reasonable one; would these arrogant Darksiders keep ordinary stormies as their personal guards while sending Darktroopers to interrogate some mechanic?

Reasonable, perhaps, but it's nevertheless an assumption without foundation. Palpatine specifically ordered Sedriss to take darktroopers with him against Luke and Solusar. Where's the evidence that the Emperor's best legions were available for any of his "Dark Side Elite" on a whim? They were searching for the Solo children, not going up against two experienced Jedi.

As for them fearing him, that was me going by the drawing (they look visibly shaken, especially Zasm) and the narration box about his mighty weapons ("Even a Darksider should know better than to harass a fully armed bounty hunter like Boba Fett!").

Interpretation which doesn't match what they actually say. "Visibly shaken" could just as easily be interpreted as "wtf the bounty hunter actually dare to disagree? Oh well... we have better things to do, if he doesn't cooperate next time, we'll crush him like a bug." Or more to the point, is there any reason at all to believe that Zasm and Baddon couldn't just force-choke Fett again and make the job more permanent this time?

[Darth Hoth]

Reasonable, perhaps, but it's nevertheless an assumption without foundation. Palpatine specifically ordered Sedriss to take darktroopers with him against Luke and Solusar. Where's the evidence that the Emperor's best legions were available for any of his "Dark Side Elite" on a whim? They were searching for the Solo children, not going up against two experienced Jedi.

This was on Nar Shaddaa, where the explicitly named "Darktrooper Team Two", under the overall command of Katth and Fass, was sent to interrogate Shug Ninx's garage mechanic. The comic makes no mention of a "Darktrooper Team One", but the squad of Stormtroopers accompanying the two Darksiders spoke colloquially of "Team Two" when they were apart; I might be making too much of it, but to me that implies that they both belonged to the same unit (the Darktroopers). Also, I find it unlikely that the haughty Darksiders would send the Darktroopers under their command on such a relatively minor task while keeping only ordinary Stormies as their bodyguard, especially when confronting a bounty hunter that they apparently considered dangerous.

Whence comes the reference for Palpatine explicitly ordering Darktroopers to be sent after Skywalker and Solusar, by the way? I could not find it in my comic; is it from an audiobook?

Interpretation which doesn't match what they actually say. "Visibly shaken" could just as easily be interpreted as "wtf the bounty hunter actually dare to disagree? Oh well... we have better things to do, if he doesn't cooperate next time, we'll crush him like a bug." Or more to the point, is there any reason at all to believe that Zasm and Baddon couldn't just force-choke Fett again and make the job more permanent this time?

They were choking him, but broke off when he fired a volley of rocket darts (or whatever) at them; if they had an easy time recapturing him, why not do so then?

Regrettably, I do not own a scanner, so I cannot post the image I am referring to, but it appears rather unambiguous (though I suppose, with an open mind you could take it to be surprise, not strictly fear). Fass recoils, raising his arm as if to protect himself, shouting, "You'll die for this, Fett!", while Katth appears almost paralysed (his face is fearful, arms thrown down, and he merely shouts, "Stop him!"; would he do so if he could easily stop him by himself?). To be fair, they do settle down quite rapidly after Fett has run away.

[Ender]

No, a rough estimate based off their size folded up.

I think that that would indicate they're maybe .4 meters cubed. When they're folded up, they're barely bigger than the torso.

Which is really close to .3 meters cubed

As long as they're not sealed they should be able to sink even if they're very light compared with their overall volume.

As durable as SW tuff is, I am still rather doubtful that droids can be filled with water and be a-ok. Possible I suppose, but electricity and water then to mix poorly. Off the top of my head I can't think of any evidence either way. One of the RPG guides may say something about droids and water, but I don't have them to look.

I agree with you about the current, but I think I read somewhere that the droids are also able to swim (!), and were able to find the Gungan cities, that way.

No, they have watercraft they use.


I believe we also saw swimming droids in Clone Wars, during the Kit Fisto fight on Mon Calamari.[/quote]Looking it up, it appears that they used these rather then swim.

That would give them a density somewhere around that of a human, which reconciles well with the TPM scenes, earlier. Since the clones and other people aren't being pushed around by the currents, either, I actually think that makes sense.

The density of a human applied to a 0.4 meters cubed volume gives them a mass of 400 kg, putting us back where we started.

IG-88 also has lots and lots of features that the droids don't have, and was clearly designed differently. He was, though, massive enough to threaten to buckle the floors on Executor when he was moving around.

Yes, so while he may not serve as a direct comparison, I think as an order of magnitude he could serve well.


To throw some fuel on the fire, I found this; detailing how much a clone would cost. So from the AOTC novel we know a B1 is equal to a clonetrooper, a D-90 (a variant on the B2) would be equal to a clone commando, and I would guess a B3-A would match an ARC. Given the cost of these droids and simple multiplication, we discover that a clone's armor is worth more then the clone himself.

[Master of Ossus]

The density of a human applied to a 0.4 meters cubed volume gives them a mass of 400 kg, putting us back where we started.

But also confirms what Sirius pointed out: we both hugely overestimated the volume of the droids, which are certainly no larger than humans and appear to be considerably smaller.

To throw some fuel on the fire, I found this; detailing how much a clone would cost. So from the AOTC novel we know a B1 is equal to a clonetrooper, a D-90 (a variant on the B2) would be equal to a clone commando, and I would guess a B3-A would match an ARC. Given the cost of these droids and simple multiplication, we discover that a clone's armor is worth more then the clone himself.

I'm sorry, I'm not following: how did you arrive at that comparison?

[Ender]

The density of a human applied to a 0.4 meters cubed volume gives them a mass of 400 kg, putting us back where we started.

But also confirms what Sirius pointed out: we both hugely overestimated the volume of the droids, which are certainly no larger than humans and appear to be considerably smaller.

Well, does anyoen have modeling software to measure then? Also, looking the RCR says water is a "maor obstacle" and that droids move at 1/2 rate through it, but it doesn't talk about submersion, swimming, or anything really useful.

I'm sorry, I'm not following: how did you arrive at that comparison?

Which part, the cost measures, or which class of droids is the rough equal to which group of troopers?

[Terralthra]

Who says the Gungans aren't stronger than your average human? In fact wouldn't they pretty much have to be living in the conditions that they do?

I mean, it's possible that Gungans are stronger than people, but I didn't really see any evidence of super-strength, and the gentle little love-pats it was taking to knock over the battle droids (and their seeming unconcern about getting their feet smashed by metallic objects that weighed hundreds of kilos) suggests to me that the droids really don't weigh all that much.

Jar Jar does jump like 3+ meters in the air - enough to do acrobatics - with not even a running start.

[Master of Ossus]

Well, does anyoen have modeling software to measure then? Also, looking the RCR says water is a "maor obstacle" and that droids move at 1/2 rate through it, but it doesn't talk about submersion, swimming, or anything really useful.

Yeah, I found this pdf which is about measuring human body fat. Using the mid-point figures on density and mass of 25-29 year old men, I calculated that people have a total volume of around 73 liters. A liter is .001m^3, so that means that an adult man has a volume of about .07m^3. I'm guessing that the battle droid is much smaller, in terms of volume (its head and all of its limbs are significantly smaller than a human torso, and its torso itself looks to be smaller (look at the hips and lower body--they're essentially hollow). I'm revising my estimate on the volume of the droid downwards to maybe .03m^3, and probably lower. With solid iron density, that gives it a mass of 210kg, and so with the obvious hollows for electronics, hydrolics, etc. I can see it getting down to something more approximately human-massed.

I'm sorry, I'm not following: how did you arrive at that comparison?

Which part, the cost measures, or which class of droids is the rough equal to which group of troopers?

The cost estimate for clone armor v. the clones.

[Ender]

Well, does anyoen have modeling software to measure then? Also, looking the RCR says water is a "maor obstacle" and that droids move at 1/2 rate through it, but it doesn't talk about submersion, swimming, or anything really useful.

Yeah, I found this pdf which is about measuring human body fat. Using the mid-point figures on density and mass of 25-29 year old men, I calculated that people have a total volume of around 73 liters. A liter is .001m^3, so that means that an adult man has a volume of about .07m^3. I'm guessing that the battle droid is much smaller, in terms of volume (its head and all of its limbs are significantly smaller than a human torso, and its torso itself looks to be smaller (look at the hips and lower body--they're essentially hollow). I'm revising my estimate on the volume of the droid downwards to maybe .03m^3, and probably lower. With solid iron density, that gives it a mass of 210kg, and so with the obvious hollows for electronics, hydrolics, etc. I can see it getting down to something more approximately human-massed.

At that estimate then yes, it would not be insufficiently dense. Though I would prefer to have an actual volume estimate. I guess I just assigned myself a weekend project - there should be plenty of meshes out there, now I just need to import it to Blender and measure.

The cost estimate for clone armor v. the clones.

Published information. here is a listing for CIS infantry. A B1 runs 1,800 credits, so a clone would be 7,200 credits. An OOM series droid commander is 4,500 credits, so a clone commander would be 18,000 credits. A B2 is 3,300 credits, so a commando would be 13,200 credits. Though not on that page, Threats of the Galaxy lists a B3 at 13,400 and B3-A at 16,200 credits, so an ARC would then be 53,600 - 64,800 credits.

Now compare that with equipment stats: Phase 2 clonetrooper armor is worth 8,000 credits. So a commander is worth more, but a regular trooper is not. And Kataran-class commando armor goes for 100,000 credits. Heck, their gun alone is 20,000 credits. The ARC trooper stats don't list armor and weapon costs, but they are the original system, 2 updates behind. But I have a hard time thinking their armor is cheaper then the stuff the commandos wear.

So while this makes it clear droids are a far better investment in terms of cost, it also raises another point - it is actually far cheaper in SW to clone troops from scratch rather then recruit them. Dark FOrces put Kyle Katran's education as a stormtrooper officer at 500,000 credits. And that does not factor in equipment costs or pay. For that they could just grow, train and equip 18 clone commanders and have money to spare (blaster rifles are 1,000 credits)

Man, when they say life is cheap in the galaxy they aren't kidding.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's only the cost in credits, however. THere's also the time factor. Droids are still going to be the fastest to build, but clones vs recruitment isn't neccesarily so cleaer cut. We know the Kaminoan method takes at least a decade, and the Spaarti method is still at least a year or so - how long would it take to train a common soldier - months?

I also wonder if that "per credit" price depends on the cloning techique. given what we saw in AOTC, I'd be surprised if the Kaminoans charged so little per clone (unless that didn't factor in training costs.) - I mean they did the life-fire exercises, the feeding, the housing, the education, medical expenses,,etc. of those Clones. Just to do a crazy improvied calc. If we assume 150 credits a day for 3 meals (50 credits apiece - I dont know offhand how much food might acutally cost) over a space of ten years (3,650 days) that's going to easily run up into the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of credits for meals. And all that assumes a clone "survives" - I'd bet costs of "losses" in troops and equipment are factored in to the overall price as well.

Edit: I'm not sure how droid prices might reflect an increase in quality. Capabilities aren't easily scaled, but I'm thinking it may not be quite linear.

[Darth Hoth]

I vaguely remember someone saying that Spaarti cloning times had been brought down to a matter of months. No reference, though.

[Terralthra]

I vaguely remember someone saying that Spaarti cloning times had been brought down to a matter of months. No reference, though.

The Last Command has explicit dialogue that during the Clone Wars, any less than a year in the tank would cause clone insanity.

[Kartr_Kana]

That was caused by the force fucking up their brains, apparently too many of the same mind needs minimum a year to balance out or something. Anyways you can bring it down to a couple of weeks if you use yaslimiri to block the force. Flash imprint them with training and boom ready made army in a month.

[Darth Hoth]

I vaguely remember someone saying that Spaarti cloning times had been brought down to a matter of months. No reference, though.

The Last Command has explicit dialogue that during the Clone Wars, any less than a year in the tank would cause clone insanity.

I know, but that is a rather old source (not to mention, it is Timothy "Captain Minimalism" Zahn writing). I seem to recall that being retconned somewhere. An Essential Guide? Or perhaps WEG?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I vaguely remember someone saying that Spaarti cloning times had been brought down to a matter of months. No reference, though.

The Last Command has explicit dialogue that during the Clone Wars, any less than a year in the tank would cause clone insanity.

Around a year is necessary to prevent clone insanity according to the oft-repeated "rule of thumb" that both the main Imperial and Neo-Republican characters are familiar with. However, Lando muses that the "Clonemasters" must have found a partial solution to the problem of clone madness during the Clone Wars, implying that there was prior workarounds (this statement was in presented in contrast to the prior rule of thumb). Furthermore, neither groups of main characters have personal experience with cloning in general and Spaarti-type clones in particular until the crisis; Captain Pellaeon muses that the early clones faced by the Fleet had been remarkably unstable but aside from this his personal expertise is limited. Its possible both were mistaken or operating on simplified generalizations.

It should be noted the "Thrawn innovation" permitted decantment of a new clone every 21 days, if I remember correctly.

[Ender]

That's only the cost in credits, however. THere's also the time factor. Droids are still going to be the fastest to build, but clones vs recruitment isn't neccesarily so cleaer cut. We know the Kaminoan method takes at least a decade, and the Spaarti method is still at least a year or so - how long would it take to train a common soldier - months?

Depends to the level you are training them too. Soldiers of the Empire says 60 weeks for the growing of stormtroopers; then training beyond it. I'd guess at that being the figure for the Kaminoan method. Though it did drop, by the end of the war the Republic was taking custody of the generations seen as children at the early stages.

I also wonder if that "per credit" price depends on the cloning techique. given what we saw in AOTC, I'd be surprised if the Kaminoans charged so little per clone (unless that didn't factor in training costs.)

It says it is for the same level, and level are supposed to reflect training and experience. So I'd say the 4x rule does include training.

- I mean they did the life-fire exercises, the feeding, the housing, the education, medical expenses,,etc. of those Clones.

Education we can estimate from the stated fees of the trainers - I think Jango got 8 million, but I'm not positive. Medical care under Kaminoans appears to be a bullet to the back of the head, that tends to be pretty cheap. The real expense would be the infrastructure they had to build for the army - new and expanded cloning centers, new and bigger training fields, etc. An Acclamator is only 29 million, (though you have to factor in equipment on board), so relatively the subcontract likely isn't that bad.

Just to do a crazy improvied calc. If we assume 150 credits a day for 3 meals (50 credits apiece - I dont know offhand how much food might acutally cost) over a space of ten years (3,650 days) that's going to easily run up into the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of credits for meals.

That assumes that they are out and about and eating things. We've seen that clones, when not "in use" get put in stasis. Darman was put in stasis after Geonosis until the Quilla mission, and the ARCs were in stasis until they were decanted for the Battle of Kamino.

Also, I'd challenge your assumptions of food costs. I haven't looked up what the RPG says the cost of food is, but if you are paying $50 a meal you are getting screwed over. On my ship the estimate from supply was $7.60 per person per day.

And all that assumes a clone "survives" - I'd bet costs of "losses" in troops and equipment are factored in to the overall price as well.

Probably, though that really just makes droids a better value because the quality control is easier. Defective droids are just reprogrammed.

Edit: I'm not sure how droid prices might reflect an increase in quality. Capabilities aren't easily scaled, but I'm thinking it may not be quite linear.

I think it is all over the place.

B1 battle droid: 1,800
B2 Super Battle droid: 3,300
OOM series commander droid: 4,500
Dwarf Spider Droid: 8,500
B3 Ultra Battle droid: 13,400
B3-A Ultra battle droid: 16,200
Vulture fighter: 19,000
Tri-fighter: 20,000
Droideka: 21,000
IG-100 MagnaGuard: 29,000
HMP Gunship: 60,000


Those are just the ones I can find swiftly. There really is no rhyme or reason - a gunship costs 3 times as much as a starfighter? Hell, a glorified machine gun costs more then a starfighter?

[Sidewinder]

That's only the cost in credits, however. THere's also the time factor. Droids are still going to be the fastest to build, but clones vs recruitment isn't neccesarily so cleaer cut. We know the Kaminoan method takes at least a decade, and the Spaarti method is still at least a year or so - how long would it take to train a common soldier - months?

Well, US Army basic training lasts about two months. Military occupational specialty (MOS) training varies greatly; infantry lasts a month (I believe this training is included in USMC basic training, which lasts three months), while mine, for helicopter armament/electrical systems repairer, lasted eight months.

The Kaminoans had a technique to accelerate a clonetrooper's training(flash training), but I don't know the rate with which flash training can shorten MOS training.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I imagine the RPG's economics are probably among its worst characteristics.

[Ender]

I imagine the RPG's economics are probably among its worst characteristics.

Oh don't be so cynical. You know there is much worse stuff out there.


WRT flash training, I'd imagine it would speed up MOS training - it would deal with the book knowledge and to a degree the practical knowledge that the specialty would call for. But flash training would be useless for the physical training that is a big part of any infantryman's daily life. You can know you need to find cover, aim, return fire, but until you've done it time upon time upon time you won't have the muscle memory to do it as a reflex like you need.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What makes you think they can't artificially create that? Its a physical phenomena, and Thrawn's clones were fully-ready after 21 days.

[Ender]

What makes you think they can't artificially create that? Its a physical phenomena, and Thrawn's clones were fully-ready after 21 days.

Because Thrawn's instant-clones didn't do the basics that one would expect from that kind of training. Luke poked a hole in the hull and not a single one of those stormtroopers had the good sense to use their air packs. Boot camp instills in you the training to make sure using your equipment is nearly a reflex. These guys had a minute or two to turn on the equipment they were already wearing. Failure to do so screams poor training to me.

[Agent Sorchus]

Because Thrawn's instant-clones didn't do the basics that one would expect from that kind of training. Luke poked a hole in the hull and not a single one of those stormtroopers had the good sense to use their air packs. Boot camp instills in you the training to make sure using your equipment is nearly a reflex. These guys had a minute or two to turn on the equipment they were already wearing. Failure to do so screams poor training to me.

However it noted earlier in the chapter that they clones were not equiped with any rebreathing equipment, not even enough to stop colant gases from killing the clones. This was noted by Han whom as a former imp. officer would presumably know how to identify the boarding troops equipment

[Illuminatus Primus]

What makes you think they can't artificially create that? Its a physical phenomena, and Thrawn's clones were fully-ready after 21 days.

Because Thrawn's instant-clones didn't do the basics that one would expect from that kind of training. Luke poked a hole in the hull and not a single one of those stormtroopers had the good sense to use their air packs. Boot camp instills in you the training to make sure using your equipment is nearly a reflex. These guys had a minute or two to turn on the equipment they were already wearing. Failure to do so screams poor training to me.

Oh come on, you know that's just Zahn's lack of forethought and intelligence. That's a stretch against all the other implication that they were dedicated troops and excellent and like old-style Stormtroopers at everything. Why bother copying Max Veers and Fel and shit if they're going to be retarded anyway? Why all the fear of the clones? Why bother with the clones at all?