My thoughts on faith healing

[BountyHunterSAx]

In Islam we are taught that shifa'ah (roughly translated, 'cure') comes from Allah. Further, we are taught that without Allah's will there is no hope for one to be cured. And we are also taught:

"First tie your camel, and *then* trust in Allah" -Muhammad (S)

The original reference actually referred to a man who left his camel untied in a desert as he rested below a tree, confident that God would protect it for him. The prophet later on gave this advice.


That's my outlook on medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor - i'm a first year Med Student right now - and I firmly believe that if I have a bacterial infection and I take a course of Biaxin, or hell, even something as strong as Levaquin, it's not the medicine that cures me - it's Allah curing me through the use of that medicine.

If God opted to take away the Shifa'ah, then the medicine would not work. It'd be hailed as a crazy freak accident. Tests would be performed. We'd find out that there was some extremely rare combination of strange conditions that caused it not to work. Or worse - as often happens in so open a field as medicine - we'd have no idea why on *earth* it didn't work. I'd still be content to say "Allah took the shifa'ah out of it." And that doesn't mean i'd give up on all medical treatment, I'd keep trying. For all I know God wants me to remain ill longer, gives me the opportunity to do patience now.


[pause] I just realized that I'm writing this on SDN. You guys are doubtlessly going to point out the numerous unprovable statements that i've made </poisoning the well>. Fact is, I already know that I can't prove my belief is right. I know that if pressed on:

* Is God *really* even there?
* What is 'shifaah' in a tangible sense?
* Statistically people who use medication seem to get shifa'ah more often than those that don't - why is God so selective?
* Why would God choose to work in mysterious ways?

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions. It's a matter of faith. I say that my Lord is Allah, and I stand by that. It may not be rational - it may not be logical - it may not even be reality in the end. But it enriches my life, it's one of the only anchors that I actually *really* have, and it's a source of immense pride to me to hold that belief. If that makes me a fundamentalist - then sobeit.

But it doesn't make me an idiot. The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot. It doesn't make me cruel, sadistic, or inhumane. In fact, if anything, it inspires me toward the opposite. What it does make me is conflicted mentally (a harsher word would be hypocritical) since it leaves me agnostic by conscious knowledge, and Muslim by faith.


-AHMAD

[Temjin]

One would think that since faith-healing has managed to fail twice so far, it should cause these people to question that particular treatment method.

Yeah, I know. What a naive fellow I am.

You kidding me? They already have the answer all set up for when they inevitably fail.

It was god's will that the person should die. Probably because he was such a great person that god couldn't stand to be apart from him for any longer, or some bullshit like that.

In which case, taking him to a doctor would have been useless anyway, since if it was god's will that he die, he would have died no matter what the doctors did.

After all, if god didn't want him to die, why didn't the faith healing work?

[The Vortex Empire]

In Islam we are taught that shifa'ah (roughly translated, 'cure') comes from Allah. Further, we are taught that without Allah's will there is no hope for one to be cured. And we are also taught:

"First tie your camel, and *then* trust in Allah" -Muhammad (S)

The original reference actually referred to a man who left his camel untied in a desert as he rested below a tree, confident that God would protect it for him. The prophet later on gave this advice.


That's my outlook on medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor - i'm a first year Med Student right now - and I firmly believe that if I have a bacterial infection and I take a course of Biaxin, or hell, even something as strong as Levaquin, it's not the medicine that cures me - it's Allah curing me through the use of that medicine.

If God opted to take away the Shifa'ah, then the medicine would not work. It'd be hailed as a crazy freak accident. Tests would be performed. We'd find out that there was some extremely rare combination of strange conditions that caused it not to work. Or worse - as often happens in so open a field as medicine - we'd have no idea why on *earth* it didn't work. I'd still be content to say "Allah took the shifa'ah out of it." And that doesn't mean i'd give up on all medical treatment, I'd keep trying. For all I know God wants me to remain ill longer, gives me the opportunity to do patience now.


[pause] I just realized that I'm writing this on SDN. You guys are doubtlessly going to point out the numerous unprovable statements that i've made </poisoning the well>. Fact is, I already know that I can't prove my belief is right. I know that if pressed on:

* Is God *really* even there?
* What is 'shifaah' in a tangible sense?
* Statistically people who use medication seem to get shifa'ah more often than those that don't - why is God so selective?
* Why would God choose to work in mysterious ways?

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions. It's a matter of faith. I say that my Lord is Allah, and I stand by that. It may not be rational - it may not be logical - it may not even be reality in the end. But it enriches my life, it's one of the only anchors that I actually *really* have, and it's a source of immense pride to me to hold that belief. If that makes me a fundamentalist - then sobeit.

But it doesn't make me an idiot. The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot. It doesn't make me cruel, sadistic, or inhumane. In fact, if anything, it inspires me toward the opposite. What it does make me is conflicted mentally (a harsher word would be hypocritical) since it leaves me agnostic by conscious knowledge, and Muslim by faith.


-AHMAD

If medicine works by Divine Intervention, then why do only certain chemicals/procedures cure certain diseases? Occams Razor, my friend, the idea that medicine cures disease works perfectly without introducing a god.

[nickolay1]

It may not be rational - it may not be logical - it may not even be reality in the end. But it enriches my life, it's one of the only anchors that I actually *really* have, and it's a source of immense pride to me to hold that belief. If that makes me a fundamentalist - then sobeit.

If you don't give a shit that your current brand of bullshit isn't real, why bother maintaining this belief when there are infinite other beliefs which are far more pleasant?

But it doesn't make me an idiot.

Says the one who adheres to rubbish composed by primitive desert nomads over one thousand years ago.

The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot.

Your post has just proven this 'vouching' process is worthless.

[Ghost Rider]

Don't ressurect a thread so you can post about a tangent of your life.

From here

[BountyHunterSAx]

*SNIP*

I know that if pressed on:

* Is God *really* even there?
* What is 'shifaah' in a tangible sense?
* Statistically people who use medication seem to get shifa'ah more often than those that don't - why is God so selective?
* Why would God choose to work in mysterious ways?

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions.

*SNIP*

If medicine works by Divine Intervention, then why do only certain chemicals/procedures cure certain diseases? Occams Razor, my friend, the idea that medicine cures disease works perfectly without introducing a god.

Conceded, once again. Doesn't change a damn thing.

-AHMAD

[Chris OFarrell]

Why does Allah then cure people who do not believe in him? People who have never even HEARD of him? People who publicly call him a delusional thought of a crazy man who spent too much time in the desert and do everything possible to piss him off?

WHY does he therefore cure these people, be it the unbelieving doctor, patient, or both? When the Quran is rather specific about the consequences for not believing in him, yet he apparently is willing to help cure people?

So if he can reliably and continually jump in and save people 'through' doctors and modern medical technology with such regularity, why can't Allah, who by definition knows everything, let them save pious people who SHOULD have been saved easily, even after the doctor prayed his heart out to Allah? When other doctors who denounce Allah as a delusion are able to easily save such patients, who also don't believe, in other circumstances?

And so on...

[BountyHunterSAx]

God chooses to work in whichever way He wishes. I don't expect to be able to understand them. Nor am I fool enough to hold Him to my own personal ethical standards.

In other words: God works in mysterious ways.


oh - and to pre-empt what i suspect is coming next, let me re-re-quote myself.

*SNIP*

I know that if pressed on:

* Is God *really* even there?
* What is 'shifaah' in a tangible sense?
* Statistically people who use medication seem to get shifa'ah more often than those that don't - why is God so selective?
* Why would God choose to work in mysterious ways?

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions.

*SNIP*

-AHMAD

[Knife]

But it doesn't make me an idiot. The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot.

As a student you must realize the difference between those people who can memorize information and thus get good grades, and those who can learn and then apply knowledge and be good at a skill, grades be damned.

Of course you can go to college and learn a lot about medicine and physiology. But if you believe that the medicine only works because god made it work, then you skipped over the part where you're applying the knowledge and just memorizing shit.

It doesn't make me cruel, sadistic, or inhumane.

No, but it makes you sound retarded (actual meaning), since you're not only being taught names and procedures but you should also be learning the underlying mechanisms that drive it, whether it is a chemical reaction or a physiological response.

In fact, if anything, it inspires me toward the opposite. What it does make me is conflicted mentally (a harsher word would be hypocritical) since it leaves me agnostic by conscious knowledge, and Muslim by faith.

Honestly it makes you a bit of a coward if you can intellectually realize that your crap is wrong but won't follow that and instead keep nice and safe in tradition.

[Knife]

God chooses to work in whichever way He wishes. I don't expect to be able to understand them. Nor am I fool enough to hold Him to my own personal ethical standards.

But you do, you just posted all about how you understand him and how you hold him to your personal scheme. You expect him to heal people through the medicine instead of magic fairy dust or a couple cool sounding words murmured in a deep voice.

[Rye]

I'm in a worse mood than usual, so this post will be less patient than usual.

In Islam we are taught that shifa'ah (roughly translated, 'cure') comes from Allah. Further, we are taught that without Allah's will there is no hope for one to be cured. And we are also taught:

"First tie your camel, and *then* trust in Allah" -Muhammad (S)

The original reference actually referred to a man who left his camel untied in a desert as he rested below a tree, confident that God would protect it for him. The prophet later on gave this advice.


That's my outlook on medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor - i'm a first year Med Student right now - and I firmly believe that if I have a bacterial infection and I take a course of Biaxin, or hell, even something as strong as Levaquin, it's not the medicine that cures me - it's Allah curing me through the use of that medicine.

Why? That's fucking stupid. Your beliefs are stupid. They're as stupid as that old christian addage "sometimes God answers prayers no" in that he's indistinguishable from his not having a part in any medicine. Why do you think the best explanation for the apparent absence of God in medicine is that he's hiding really well rather than the fucking obvious? Do you think the best explanation for an empty box is that it's containing products that are invisible to the naked eye and out of phase with normal reality? Fuck no.

If God opted to take away the Shifa'ah, then the medicine would not work.

God is not real. He is not the reason EDTA prevents blood from coagulating, it is fucking chemistry.

For all I know God wants me to remain ill longer, gives me the opportunity to do patience now.

That sort of idiot fatalist argument goes for any desired conclusion, including injecting patients with morphine so they die a la Harold Shipman.

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions. It's a matter of faith. I say that my Lord is Allah, and I stand by that. It may not be rational - it may not be logical - it may not even be reality in the end. But it enriches my life, it's one of the only anchors that I actually *really* have, and it's a source of immense pride to me to hold that belief.

Yes, yes, yes, you have cultural pride that you believe something stupid because you have been taught that believing the same factually incorrect belief is virtuous. That is all.

But it doesn't make me an idiot. The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot. It doesn't make me cruel, sadistic, or inhumane. In fact, if anything, it inspires me toward the opposite. What it does make me is conflicted mentally (a harsher word would be hypocritical) since it leaves me agnostic by conscious knowledge, and Muslim by faith.

Which would matter to you most if you were treating a gay atheist? If it's faith, you're a fundamentalist, if it's the patient, you're a decent human being.

[nickolay1]

Idiots like this are why I'm in favor of religious tests for professions wherein human lives are at stake.

[General Zod]

God chooses to work in whichever way He wishes. I don't expect to be able to understand them. Nor am I fool enough to hold Him to my own personal ethical standards.

In other words: God works in mysterious ways.


oh - and to pre-empt what i suspect is coming next, let me re-re-quote myself.

That's retarded. "God works in mysterious ways" is just double-speak for idiots who don't want to acknowledge the fact that bad shit happens that their supposedly all-powerful deity could easily prevent yet chooses not to. Anyone with the ability to prevent suffering on any kind of massive scale who chooses not to act is just as guilty as someone who intentionally causes such suffering.

[Stark]

How is 'medicine' able to be separated from 'chemistry' or 'physics'? The results of physical interactions are determined by physical laws, so why is 'medicine' different?

If 'medicine' stopped working (since your absurd religion talks of 'cures') would heroin still get you high? It's not a 'cure' for anything, it's not 'medicine'. How about tobacco? Biologically we're talking about the same reactions, after all.

Frankly, I'm sad I wasted my time talking to someone so content in their doublethinking ignorance. It's a sad commentary on society when a relgion can steal the entire concept of 'cure' as part of their magic, and educate generations of functionally broken human beings to wholeheartedly believe it. I've seen the exact same thing with Christians.

[Singular Intellect]

Replace 'Allah' with 'magical medicine fairy', and his arguement would require absolutely no change to it.

The difference is he undoubtably thinks his belief is respectable, while the other one isn't.

[mr friendly guy]

Sounds like this guy is having a crisis of faith and is desperately trying to convince himself that his sky fairy is real, and is using the board as a soapbox to show off how emo he is.

Other people have already pointed out what is wrong with his bullshit, so I won't bother.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So, in a nutshell you're telling us that this is what you believe and you know you can't argue it, but you're going to tell us anyway...

Why would you post this on a debate forum?

[Shroom Man 777]

Allah, and his Prophet Mohammad, are the only ones with the Divine Power to invoke the holy heroin! For without him, there would be no narcotics, and there would be no divine bliss provided by those holy substances!

This white power is the Seventy Two Virgins, but on Earth! Praise the Prophet!

And I can say the same thing about arsenic, too.

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions. It's a matter of faith. I say that my Lord is Allah, and I stand by that. It may not be rational - it may not be logical - it may not even be reality in the end. But it enriches my life, it's one of the only anchors that I actually *really* have, and it's a source of immense pride to me to hold that belief. If that makes me a fundamentalist - then sobeit.

But it doesn't make me an idiot. The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot. It doesn't make me cruel, sadistic, or inhumane. In fact, if anything, it inspires me toward the opposite. What it does make me is conflicted mentally (a harsher word would be hypocritical) since it leaves me agnostic by conscious knowledge, and Muslim by faith.


- SHROOM

[Shroom Man 777]

Fuck! That's *white powder*

NOT white power.

As fucked up as I am, I still consider neo-Nazism a totally separate deal from Muslim Medicine or something.

[TheKwas]

In lawngnomism we are taught that greengrassicka (roughly translated, 'cure') comes from the magical lawn gnomes. Further, we are taught that without the magical lawn gnome's will there is no hope for one to be cured. And we are also taught:

"First tie your camel, and *then* trust in the magical lawn gnome" -The prophet gnome 'sleepy' (S)

The original reference actually referred to a man who left his camel untied in a desert as he rested below a tree, confident that lawn gnomes would protect it for him. The prophet later on gave this advice.


That's my outlook on medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor - i'm a first year Med Student right now - and I firmly believe that if I have a bacterial infection and I take a course of Biaxin, or hell, even something as strong as Levaquin, it's not the medicine that cures me - it's magical lawn gnomes curing me through the use of that medicine.

If God opted to take away the greengrassicka then the medicine would not work. It'd be hailed as a crazy freak accident. Tests would be performed. We'd find out that there was some extremely rare combination of strange conditions that caused it not to work. Or worse - as often happens in so open a field as medicine - we'd have no idea why on *earth* it didn't work. I'd still be content to say "The magical lawn gnomes took the greengrassicka out of it." And that doesn't mean i'd give up on all medical treatment, I'd keep trying. For all I know the gnomes wants me to remain ill longer, gives me the opportunity to do patience now.


[pause] I just realized that I'm writing this on SDN. You guys are doubtlessly going to point out the numerous unprovable statements that i've made </poisoning the well>. Fact is, I already know that I can't prove my belief is right. I know that if pressed on:

* are magical lawn gnomes *really* even there?
* What is 'greengrassicka' in a tangible sense?
* Statistically people who use medication seem to get greengrassicka more often than those that don't - why are the gnomes so selective?
* Why would the gnomes choose to work in mysterious ways?

I'd concede that I couldnt really give a solid answer to any of those questions. It's a matter of faith. I say that my Lords are tiny men that spend all their time standing motionless on front lawns, and I stand by that. It may not be rational - it may not be logical - it may not even be reality in the end. But it enriches my life, it's one of the only anchors that I actually *really* have, and it's a source of immense pride to me to hold that belief. If that makes me a fundamentalist - then sobeit.

But it doesn't make me an idiot. The educational system in this country will vouch for the fact that I'm no idiot. It doesn't make me cruel, sadistic, or inhumane. In fact, if anything, it inspires me toward the opposite. What it does make me is conflicted mentally (a harsher word would be hypocritical) since it leaves me agnostic by conscious knowledge, and magicallawngnomish by faith.


-AHMAD

Homer: Wait, I'm confused about the movie. So the cops knew that internal affairs were setting them up?
Glen: What are you talking about? There is nothing like that in there!
Homer: Oh, you see when I get bored I make up my own movie. I have a very short attention span.
Jane: But our point is very simple. You see, when--
Homer: Oh, look! A bird!

[StarshipTitanic]

And that doesn't mean i'd give up on all medical treatment, I'd keep trying.

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx. He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die. Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

That doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot for the magical quality you see in a cure, BountyHunterSAx, but obviously you mean to tie your camel tightly before trusting it to Allah so ethically I don't see the difference between you and an atheist doctor.

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

[General Zod]

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx. He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die. Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

Why should we be generous to people that spout off unsubstantiated beliefs as fact?

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

See above.

[Knife]

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx. He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die.

The implication here is that there is a force besides the medication, besides the doctor and besides the patient that is determining the prognosis of the patient.

At some point, that very implication impeads the care givers since by this thought process, it is completely out of their hands. Honestly, if Allah wants the patient dead, why give him the meds? If Allah wants the patient alive, why give him the meds?

This is a problem with medicine.

Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

Uhm, there are plenty of people on this forum in health care you know. I don't know about med school, but there are at least four in nursing school along with other healthcare fields.

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

Yes, I do find issue. When you go down that road you end up with things like Pharmacists who won't prescribe certain medications because it is against his religion. You have doctors who won't preform certain procedures and/or treatments due to religion, along with the other objections I raised above.

[Singular Intellect]

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx.

And why should we be? Are you under the impression his personal beliefs are worthy of respect?

If so, explain why we should respect his personal beliefs anymore than someone who claims they believe their medical skills and tools are dictated by the medicine fairy.

He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die. Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

That doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot for the magical quality you see in a cure, BountyHunterSAx, but obviously you mean to tie your camel tightly before trusting it to Allah so ethically I don't see the difference between you and an atheist doctor.

His belief system perpetuates ignorance, and that is a dangerous quality.

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

Let's put it another way: say an individual saves the life of a stranger by risking their own. Pretty straight forward good act, right?

But say there's two examples of this exact same event.

Individual A saves the stranger because they can sympathize with said stranger, understand their plight, how their death could affect loved ones and how society functions best when people work together for the common good.

Individual B on the other hand saves the stranger only because they're convinced that if they don't, they'll be punished by some fictional monster for not doing so.

In the end, both outcomes are the same, but the justifications behind both are completely different.

The problem is one of those justifications is potentially extremely dangerous, the other is not.

[Superman]

"First tie your camel, and *then* trust in Allah" -Muhammad (S)

I think it's actually: "First tie your Allah, and *then* trust in camel."