My thoughts on faith healing

[Block]

And that doesn't mean i'd give up on all medical treatment, I'd keep trying.

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx. He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die. Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

That doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot for the magical quality you see in a cure, BountyHunterSAx, but obviously you mean to tie your camel tightly before trusting it to Allah so ethically I don't see the difference between you and an atheist doctor.

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

At least someone's being a bit reasonable about this. In medicine sometimes people just die. You can do everything right, and still the person dies. So how do you explain that away? Is it God or luck or fate? Who knows? It just is, someday will we figure it out better? Probably, yes.

BountyHunter is clearly saying he's going to do everything he can and continue to do everything he can to help people and the rest is up to God or whatever you want to call it.

I don't know that something like that is entirely unreasonable and I think almost all of you are being incredible dicks for no real reason.

[ray245]

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx.

And why should we be? Are you under the impression his personal beliefs are worthy of respect?

If so, explain why we should respect his personal beliefs anymore than someone who claims they believe their medical skills and tools are dictated by the medicine fairy.

He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die. Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

That doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot for the magical quality you see in a cure, BountyHunterSAx, but obviously you mean to tie your camel tightly before trusting it to Allah so ethically I don't see the difference between you and an atheist doctor.

His belief system perpetuates ignorance, and that is a dangerous quality.

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

Let's put it another way: say an individual saves the life of a stranger by risking their own. Pretty straight forward good act, right?

But say there's two examples of this exact same event.

Individual A saves the stranger because they can sympathize with said stranger, understand their plight, how their death could affect loved ones and how society functions best when people work together for the common good.

Individual B on the other hand saves the stranger only because they're convinced that if they don't, they'll be punished by some fictional monster for not doing so.

In the end, both outcomes are the same, but the justifications behind both are completely different.

The problem is one of those justifications is potentially extremely dangerous, the other is not.

I thought that allowing people to have this belief is better than the alternative, which is not giving the sick person ANY medicial attention at all.

In a way, to atheist, it is the lesser of two evils.

You don't change a fundie to a atheist overnight...simply providing him enough evidence and directly challenging his belief as we all know, don't really work too well.

You take one step at a time, open up their mind bit by bit, challenge their belief USING a religious tone.

Look at the story about how Mrs Wong change her belief, it happened over a period of time. Alot of caring and concern is put forward to help the person change their belief. You give that person the moral support that is needed...give her the courage to do so.

We may not be able to see the fruits of our labour to cut down relgious fundementalism to a much more acceptable level...but our children and grandchildren may be able to.

Taking this stance may be dangerous to some of you, but it allows people to move forwards and change their beliefs that will DIRECTLY impact the life and death of a person.

Allowing a person who belief in STRICT faith healing which do not tolerate any modern medicine to be changed to a belief that medicine is a product of god, or the discovery of a new medicine IS an act of god can help everyone...it is the lesser evil to an atheist. Simply ALLOWING those fundies to accept modern medication is a move towards a better world.

You sure as hell don't change a person beliefs by rejecting them, you change thier belief by accepting them. One of the many reason why religion like chrisitanity manage to earn a large following.

Who knows, one day the majority of the population can accept a religion that only tells them what will the afterlife be like, and an afterlife that does not take in account of their action in life, like praying or using religion to kill or murder another person.

[Rahvin]

And that doesn't mean i'd give up on all medical treatment, I'd keep trying.

I don't think you all are being generous to BountyHunterSAx. He believes that all the medicines at his disposal were given to him by Allah but if Allah really wants his patient dead, the patient will somehow die. Frankly, if he succeeds at medical school he's probably going to save a lot more lives than most (any?) of you will despite his theism.

That doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot for the magical quality you see in a cure, BountyHunterSAx, but obviously you mean to tie your camel tightly before trusting it to Allah so ethically I don't see the difference between you and an atheist doctor.

Does anyone really find an issue with the quality of care he theoretically would provide? Or are you all just scoring points off the silly theist who foolishly decided to proclaim it on a predominantly secular forum? It's not like he's defending the Crusades or witch burning.

Ahem.
You ever notice that little motto up at the top of the board?

Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people

BountyHunterSAx has, unprompted, posted an admission that he believes in fairy tales for no better reason than an emotional attachment. He then claims that this doesn't make him "an idiot."

Adults who believe in Santa Claus? Idiots.

Adults who believe in fairies? Idiots.

Adults who believe in religious bullshit, especially when fully cognizant of the fact that they have no actual reason for those beliefs beyond emotional feelings regarding their favorite little fantasy-land and then post those facts on an internet message board that is extremely unfriendly to irrational nonsense and expecting to not be considered idiots? Idiots.

BountyHunter has revealed himself to be a stupid person. Is it really so surprising that mockery has followed?

I don't care what kind of grades he gets in school, or that he's studying to be a doctor. Outside of his little religious fantasies, he may very well be a very intelligent person. But as it pertains to his religious beliefs, holding such beliefs when you know you have nothing to back them up beyond tradition and emotional bullshit is stupid. And it takes a special kind of idiot to post that kind of nonsense here, of all places. Since when does SD.net treat people who try to justify their irrational beliefs in this way with anything other than contempt and mockery?

[mr friendly guy]

The implication here is that there is a force besides the medication, besides the doctor and besides the patient that is determining the prognosis of the patient.

At some point, that very implication impeads the care givers since by this thought process, it is completely out of their hands. Honestly, if Allah wants the patient dead, why give him the meds? If Allah wants the patient alive, why give him the meds?

This is a problem with medicine.

I suspect most of these people will practice and hypocritically give credence of Allah instead of medicinal practice and the science which gave us this knowledge.

However problems will arise when

1) they use their medicine degree to try and give pseudo science bullshit an air of respectability it does not deserve, in a similar manner to how creationists try to get geology degrees so they can dispute the age of the earth (I believe this was the subject of a thread last year)

I have Christian colleagues who mention among other themselves that praying has been shown to work (SLAM has hosted several such threads already).

While I don't have a problem with people trying "alternative medicines" ( lets face it, praying comes under that umbrella), I do have a problem with people claiming fraudulently it works.

2) Some of these people refuse to treat others based on religious preferences. We already have stories about people refusing contraception to women and doctors refusing to treat homosexuals.

Uhm, there are plenty of people on this forum in health care you know. I don't know about med school, but there are at least four in nursing school along with other healthcare fields.

Just for interest who are these in nursing?

Larz and myself are the doctors on this board that I am aware of. There was also someone else who I had a conversation with who mentioned he was in medical school (I think it was that thread where someone was asking the mechanism of antibiotic resistant bacteria).

[StarshipTitanic]

Why should we be generous to people that spout off unsubstantiated beliefs as fact?

He said he would do all that's medically possible to save a patient and if nothing worked and the patient died, then he'd assume it was Allah. His actions are no different than an atheist doctor's actions up until after the patient dies and there's nothing more he can do. Did you not notice I also called him an idiot for believing the magical aspects? He seems to think he's faith healing but we can at least all agree that he isn't really a Christian Scientist level of idiot.

At some point, that very implication impeads the care givers since by this thought process, it is completely out of their hands. Honestly, if Allah wants the patient dead, why give him the meds? If Allah wants the patient alive, why give him the meds?

Because he said he would keep trying. I even quoted it at the top of my post so you morons would know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not defending his faith in Allah to make the medicine work, but the fact that he will keep trying different treatments like any good doctor.

Yes, I do find issue. When you go down that road you end up with things like Pharmacists who won't prescribe certain medications because it is against his religion. You have doctors who won't preform certain procedures and/or treatments due to religion, along with the other objections I raised above.

If you really have an issue, why don't you ask him if there are procedures he wouldn't perform due to his religion instead of jumping down his throat and getting nothing out of him? Assuming he will let Islam get in the way of writing a prescription and mocking him for it is premature until we know if he's that kind of idiot.

And why should we be? Are you under the impression his personal beliefs are worthy of respect?

If so, explain why we should respect his personal beliefs anymore than someone who claims they believe their medical skills and tools are dictated by the medicine fairy.

---

His belief system perpetuates ignorance, and that is a dangerous quality.

Blah blah blah, generic atheist point scoring. I called him an idiot for believing but I won't make judgments on his medical practices until he starts saying nonsense about it.

Let's put it another way: say an individual saves the life of a stranger by risking their own. Pretty straight forward good act, right?

blah blah blah

That was a plot from an episode of House, a medical drama. Somehow I doubt doctors put their lives on the line every Tuesday at 9:00 PM EST. Oh no, what if Dr. McCoy thought the polywater infection was the will of Allah and let himself and Captain Kirk die of extreme lust!?!?

Ahem.
You ever notice that little motto up at the top of the board?

blah blah blah

Wow, you scored points with multiple paragraphs and italics! Make this man a senator!

That doesn't mean I don't think you're an idiot for the magical quality you see in a cure, BountyHunterSAx...

Now will someone please address the point I did raise and not try to have me defend his theism when I agree with (most of) you on that point?

[Master of Cards]

Just for interest who are these in nursing?

Larz and myself are the doctors on this board that I am aware of. There was also someone else who I had a conversation with who mentioned he was in medical school (I think it was that thread where someone was asking the mechanism of antibiotic resistant bacteria).

There's an Italian member in Med School and Shroom is finishing up a nursing degree that I know of.

[Knife]

Just for interest who are these in nursing?

Larz and myself are the doctors on this board that I am aware of.

Cool, I didn't know Larz was a doc. Interesting.

Anyway, Shroom is finishing up his nursing degree and I'm just starting. I know there were two others but my brain is not working sufficiently this morning to cough up names.

At least someone's being a bit reasonable about this. In medicine sometimes people just die. You can do everything right, and still the person dies. So how do you explain that away? Is it God or luck or fate? Who knows? It just is, someday will we figure it out better? Probably, yes.

BountyHunter is clearly saying he's going to do everything he can and continue to do everything he can to help people and the rest is up to God or whatever you want to call it.

I don't know that something like that is entirely unreasonable and I think almost all of you are being incredible dicks for no real reason.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. If your base position about medicine, or science in the first place, is that it is out of your hands and some magical entity is controlling it no matter what you do it is a conflict of interest and a flaw in reasoning when dealing with actual mechanisms that the human physiology is.

To actually admit that deep down it is out of your hands, whether or not you profess to do all you can, deeply affects your judgment on what to do to provide care for a patient. It is going through the motions instead of active treatment. That's a problem. Then you go into the problem of when medicine violates religion and where the guy comes down on that issue.

Maybe some are being harsh with the 'hur hur...Allah sucks' bit, but I have a problem with the fundemental idea of someone practicing medicine who doesn't think the medicine is actually doing the job and his faith is doing it instead. That is faulty reasoning and a conflict of interest. He can technically go through all the procedures correctly and a majority of his patients be fine. But all it takes is for him to defer to the implied bias just a little and all those procedures and all that training will come crashing down and the patient will suffer.

If you really have an issue, why don't you ask him if there are procedures he wouldn't perform due to his religion instead of jumping down his throat and getting nothing out of him?

1) I did address this issue in one of my posts so...fuck off.

2) Get real, he did a drive by post. It was obvious by his OT that he knew what was coming and he had no intentions of discussing the issue. If anything he deserves the criticism he's getting for blatant flame bait if not a bit of trollish behavior for posting and running.

Assuming he will let Islam get in the way of writing a prescription and mocking him for it is premature until we know if he's that kind of idiot.

As I said, if he follows his procedures it is likely that a majority of his patients through out his practice will be fine. That's not the point, medicine is more than following procedures at his desired level.

If he was an auto mechanic, he's saying he knows the wheels attach to the axle and the transmission attaches to the fly wheel, and if called upon to do so, he can screw the bolts on to keep it going. But in the end, it doesn't matter if gas goes into the engine or not because that's not what makes the engine work, god makes the engine work.

You want that guy working on your engine?

His underlying bias he admits in his OT shows he is just going through the motions instead of striving to understand what is actually happening in pathophysiology of the human body and in the chemical reactions there within but he still wants to be the guy to try and fix it. That is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off.

[General Zod]

He said he would do all that's medically possible to save a patient and if nothing worked and the patient died, then he'd assume it was Allah. His actions are no different than an atheist doctor's actions up until after the patient dies and there's nothing more he can do. Did you not notice I also called him an idiot for believing the magical aspects? He seems to think he's faith healing but we can at least all agree that he isn't really a Christian Scientist level of idiot.

That we know of. It's the fact that he thinks medicine works because of Allah or whatever magic sky pixie that's the issue, not any other fluffy belief he happens to have. So I'll repeat my original point that you seem to not be willing to address. Why the fuck should we be generous to people who spout off unsubstantiated belief as fact? I know I certainly wouldn't want a Doctor treating me who thinks that the only reason his medicines work is because his magic sky pixie allows them to. What happens if he has a crisis of faith on the job? That kind of reasoning is not at all healthy for a career where people's lives are at stake.

[StarshipTitanic]

If he was an auto mechanic, he's saying he knows the wheels attach to the axle and the transmission attaches to the fly wheel, and if called upon to do so, he can screw the bolts on to keep it going. But in the end, it doesn't matter if gas goes into the engine or not because that's not what makes the engine work, god makes the engine work.

You want that guy working on your engine?

His underlying bias he admits in his OT shows he is just going through the motions instead of striving to understand what is actually happening in pathophysiology of the human body and in the chemical reactions there within but he still wants to be the guy to try and fix it. That is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off.

If God opted to take away the Shifa'ah, then the medicine would not work. It'd be hailed as a crazy freak accident. Tests would be performed. We'd find out that there was some extremely rare combination of strange conditions that caused it not to work.

That sentiment holds whether he believes in a god or not. If you read his post, he doesn't expect to see Allah personally keeping antibiotics away from diseases with his bare hands.

But I am getting uneasy defending him anyway because I strongly suspect he wouldn't perform abortions. I think Islam is strict regarding it, though I'm not certain.

So I'll repeat my original point that you seem to not be willing to address. Why the fuck should we be generous to people who spout off unsubstantiated belief as fact?

Maybe because I never challenged that point? Do I need to make the word "idiot" larger than size 24 for you to see that I called him an idiot for believing?

However your point about having a crisis of faith on the job is valid and I can see where he could end up hurting people that way. So I will agree he will not make the best doctor he could be.

[Knife]

If God opted to take away the Shifa'ah, then the medicine would not work. It'd be hailed as a crazy freak accident. Tests would be performed. We'd find out that there was some extremely rare combination of strange conditions that caused it not to work.

That sentiment holds whether he believes in a god or not. If you read his post, he doesn't expect to see Allah personally keeping antibiotics away from diseases with his bare hands.

But the science doesn't. Rare combination of strange conditions? WTF does that even mean?

If they have a Staph infection and the anti bodies don't work, rare combination of strange conditions boils down to misdiagnoses and/or resistant strain of bacteria. Doesn't matter if Allah is using his hands, his feet, or his magic Jedi mind powers, it's not that.

But while he's wasting time thinking Allah has abandoned the patient, he's not thinking about the pathology of the situation to rectify the problem.

But I am getting uneasy defending him anyway because I strongly suspect he wouldn't perform abortions. I think Islam is strict regarding it, though I'm not certain.

I find it scary you're backing away from him, not because his reasoning and methodology is flawed, but rather his implied positions on political issues pertaining to medicine. While I agree it is a problem, it is the natural conclusion of the problem I'm having with his declaration.

[General Zod]

But I am getting uneasy defending him anyway because I strongly suspect he wouldn't perform abortions. I think Islam is strict regarding it, though I'm not certain.

There's also the possibility he'd refuse treatment to admitted homosexuals. Another thing Islam is very strict about.

[StarshipTitanic]

But the science doesn't. Rare combination of strange conditions? WTF does that even mean?

I don't know, I'm not a medical student. It seemed plausible to me but I admit my ignorance.

I find it scary you're backing away from him, not because his reasoning and methodology is flawed, but rather his implied positions on political issues pertaining to medicine. While I agree it is a problem, it is the natural conclusion of the problem I'm having with his declaration.

I find it annoying and ignorant for you to decide I picked abortion because it's a political issue and not because it impacts the mother's health if SAx doesn't want to do it, so perhaps you should fuck off instead. It was an easy issue to pick because it's hated by so many people. I've never heard of blood transfusion or vaccination issues with Muslims so my choices of what medical emergency to pick were limited.

[Knife]

I find it annoying and ignorant for you to decide I picked abortion because it's a political issue and not because it impacts the mother's health if SAx doesn't want to do it, so perhaps you should fuck off instead. It was an easy issue to pick because it's hated by so many people. I've never heard of blood transfusion or vaccination issues with Muslims so my choices of what medical emergency to pick were limited.

And yet it is directly the point I've been making and even mentioned in my second post in this fucking thread you've been arguing with me over.

His ideology is in conflict with the reasoning process he'll need to diagnos problems. Follow that to it's end and he'll eventually make decisions based on ideology instead of procedure and physiology.

I've consistently stated such in my posts and you've happily argued with me over it until someone else pointed out, just like me, that similar notions have lead to doctors not doing abortions (and onto of that I mentioned Pharmacists and birth control).

[PainRack]

*Raise hand*

ALthough what I have is a diploma only. And I still need 1 venupuncture, 6 cannulation to complete my goddamn competency checklist. Anyone has any good veins for me to try?:D

[ray245]

I find it annoying and ignorant for you to decide I picked abortion because it's a political issue and not because it impacts the mother's health if SAx doesn't want to do it, so perhaps you should fuck off instead. It was an easy issue to pick because it's hated by so many people. I've never heard of blood transfusion or vaccination issues with Muslims so my choices of what medical emergency to pick were limited.

And yet it is directly the point I've been making and even mentioned in my second post in this fucking thread you've been arguing with me over.

His ideology is in conflict with the reasoning process he'll need to diagnos problems. Follow that to it's end and he'll eventually make decisions based on ideology instead of procedure and physiology.

I've consistently stated such in my posts and you've happily argued with me over it until someone else pointed out, just like me, that similar notions have lead to doctors not doing abortions (and onto of that I mentioned Pharmacists and birth control).

How about adopting this belief as a doctor...I will cure everyone I met, regardless of their gender, race or religion as it is my belief that a doctor is to simply keep a person alive and heathly.

Religion issues is for god himself to address DIRECTLY, not from what he says in the bible or any other religious books. Those are simply a basic guideline, and you can be creative with it.

If however, I refuse or fail to to save the lives of any person on purpose as a doctor, then I deserve to rot in hell for being unable to do what I am appointed to do.


If the bible or any other religious books say gays or etc should not be repected and hated or something like it, a person can simply says that saving a life is more important than hating a person.


I'm sure those religious books mention something about the compassion bit...simply highlight and give more attention to those aspect. As a doctor, you are educated about what is needed to save lives, and use compassion in a right way, to save everyone.




If you happens to be a doctor, at the least hold a core belief that saving lives is the most important aspect of religion for you.

After all, religion is about life and death.

Also, you can use the belief that medication found and used are god's tool...and you as a doctor are god's tool. The society belief's is god's will as well. If the society as a whole/ in general respect and allow modern medicaition to be used, then that means god is saying medicine should be used.

If the society demands that homosexuals should be saved and respected, then simply belief that its god's will as well.


In a way, you are loosing the idea that religion or god's will is consistence (how the hell can you be consistence if things is never the same) and his/her will is simply what the modern society is.



A more 'liberal' religious person.

[General Zod]

How about adopting this belief as a doctor...I will cure everyone I met, regardless of their gender, race or religion as it is my belief that a doctor is to simply keep a person alive and heathly.

You do realize that Doctors are supposed to do this anyway? The problem is when assclowns let their pet beliefs interfere with this.

[ray245]

How about adopting this belief as a doctor...I will cure everyone I met, regardless of their gender, race or religion as it is my belief that a doctor is to simply keep a person alive and heathly.

You do realize that Doctors are supposed to do this anyway? The problem is when assclowns let their pet beliefs interfere with this.

I know, which is why I am saying he should be encouraged or applauded to take this stand.

This may seems to be something normal, but showing support does help a person.

[BountyHunterSAx]

Get real, he did a drive by post. It was obvious by his OT that he knew what was coming and he had no intentions of discussing the issue. If anything he deserves the criticism he's getting for blatant flame bait if not a bit of trollish behavior for posting and running.

This was not posted as an OT to a new topic for discussion, it was a 'here's my two-cents' post in a different topic. I had done a post-search, and accidentally necroed a thread (or three). Sorry to Ghost Rider for that mistake. If I'd posted this as a topic and then conceded before bothering to debate any points, then yes it would definitely be trolling. But that isn't the case here. As you can see I went ahead and conceded that I couldn't prove a word of it well within the first three posts. What do you want from me? To keep replying posts on a topic that - as you so aptly put it - i had never intended to discuss.


Still, now that I've posted this I'm going to go ahead and address this before I start getting slandered.

I have a problem with the fundemental idea of someone practicing medicine who doesn't think the medicine is actually doing the job and his faith is doing it instead

I have never nor do I now say that my faith is in any way responsible for healing my patient. Granted *their* faith may have a placebo effect which may aid in their healing, but that's literally the limit of how I think faith affects healing in a practical sense.

There's also the possibility he'd refuse treatment to admitted homosexuals

As a Muslim, I believe in preservation of life. Granted, there are crimes for which one is executed and situations where war (and hence taking of life) is mandated; but always with a view of preserving life (or improving quality of life) on the whole. I'm a doctor (or will-be), not an executioner, and thus have absolutely no issue with treating adulterers, rapists, someone who is having pre-marital sex, Alcoholics, Lesbians, Bisexuals, Gays, Transgenders, etc. All of these people are sinners in my book, and in the case of some I would most certainly turn them into the authorities directly after treatment (or whenever is due process) mind you, but I still wouldn't object to treating them.

I'd be very uncomfortable at the prospect of performing a sex-change operation as well as a wide range of cosmetic surgeries. Hence why I will not go into that field.

I strongly suspect he wouldn't perform abortions

What I will not do is take a life. When does a fetus become a 'life' is an issue that frankly I've done nothing whatsoever to ponder over, and thus can't really comment on. Here's a few things I'll say up front:

*) If the mother's life is in any real danger from the pregnancy as per what we know by the standards of modern medicine today, then I wouldn't hesitate to perform an abortion.

*) If after the period that the fetus is 'alive' (by whatever standard which I as of now really can't speak to) and the pregnant woman was a rape victim who was in no danger as a result of the pregnancy, I wouldn't perform an abortion. If she said things that made me worry for the future safety of the child, I'd advise her to put s/he in a foster home.



-AHMAD

[General Zod]

This was not posted as an OT to a new topic for discussion, it was a 'here's my two-cents' post in a different topic. I had done a post-search, and accidentally necroed a thread (or three). Sorry to Ghost Rider for that mistake. If I'd posted this as a topic and then conceded before bothering to debate any points, then yes it would definitely be trolling. But that isn't the case here. As you can see I went ahead and conceded that I couldn't prove a word of it well within the first three posts. What do you want from me? To keep replying posts on a topic that - as you so aptly put it - i had never intended to discuss.

Then why bother posting it at all? Posting unsubstantiated claims as facts is the quickest way to get your ass flamed on here.

[Knife]

This was not posted as an OT to a new topic for discussion, it was a 'here's my two-cents' post in a different topic. I had done a post-search, and accidentally necroed a thread (or three). Sorry to Ghost Rider for that mistake. If I'd posted this as a topic and then conceded before bothering to debate any points, then yes it would definitely be trolling. But that isn't the case here.

My apologies, I was mistaken in that regard.

As you can see I went ahead and conceded that I couldn't prove a word of it well within the first three posts. What do you want from me? To keep replying posts on a topic that - as you so aptly put it - i had never intended to discuss.

Then that still is relevant to my criticisms then. I stand by those ones.

Still, now that I've posted this I'm going to go ahead and address this before I start getting slandered.

I have a problem with the fundemental idea of someone practicing medicine who doesn't think the medicine is actually doing the job and his faith is doing it instead

I have never nor do I now say that my faith is in any way responsible for healing my patient. Granted *their* faith may have a placebo effect which may aid in their healing, but that's literally the limit of how I think faith affects healing in a practical sense.

That's all well and good but you actually said in the OT;

That's my outlook on medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor - i'm a first year Med Student right now - and I firmly believe that if I have a bacterial infection and I take a course of Biaxin, or hell, even something as strong as Levaquin, it's not the medicine that cures me - it's Allah curing me through the use of that medicine.

Which doesn't seem to bare out that you don't think your faith is responsible.

[BountyHunterSAx]

That's my outlook on medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor - i'm a first year Med Student right now - and I firmly believe that if I have a bacterial infection and I take a course of Biaxin, or hell, even something as strong as Levaquin, it's not the medicine that cures me - it's Allah curing me through the use of that medicine.

Which doesn't seem to bare out that you don't think your faith is responsible.

Read it again, I don't ever claim that my faith caused the medicine to work. I say that Allah caused the medicine to work. The difference is key, because I *also* believe that the same occurs for a non-believer. It's not as if I think God is more pre-disposed to cure one patient because they're a Muslim or not a cure another because they aren't. And it *CERTAINLY* doesn't mean that I think my being a Muslim directly makes the medicine work better for me, which is what "*SNIP* his faith is doing it instead" clearly means.


-AHMAD

[BountyHunterSAx]

Ghetto Addition: Notice how in both cases it is 'the medicine to work' not 'my faith to work'. God brought about the human race through evolution. God heals through medicine. God feeds me through Pizza Hut. MMMmm lunch time.

-AHMAD

[Singular Intellect]

Ghetto Addition: Notice how in both cases it is 'the medicine to work' not 'my faith to work'. God brought about the human race through evolution. God heals through medicine. God feeds me through Pizza Hut. MMMmm lunch time.

-AHMAD

So what's the crucial difference between your faith in Allah and someone else's faith in the fairies that do everything instead?

We would call the fairy believer stupid and irrational, so why shouldn't we with your particular belief?

[Knife]

[
Read it again, I don't ever claim that my faith caused the medicine to work. I say that Allah caused the medicine to work. The difference is key, because I *also* believe that the same occurs for a non-believer.

Oh for fucks sake, that's your argument? I didn't say my faith does it, just the sky fairy central to my faith?

That difference isn't key, it's a slight distraction for people who don't see it your way. Very slight and very see-through. Especially with your second line about how you believe it is the same for non-believers.

Non believes see no difference between your god and your religion, you goofball.

It's not as if I think God is more pre-disposed to cure one patient because they're a Muslim or not a cure another because they aren't. And it *CERTAINLY* doesn't mean that I think my being a Muslim directly makes the medicine work better for me, which is what "*SNIP* his faith is doing it instead" clearly means.

More red herrings. My problem with it doesn't stem from your belief that sect or specific religion doesn't matter, it's that you belive god does it with or without the medicine and treatments.

[General Zod]

Read it again, I don't ever claim that my faith caused the medicine to work. I say that Allah caused the medicine to work. The difference is key, because I *also* believe that the same occurs for a non-believer. It's not as if I think God is more pre-disposed to cure one patient because they're a Muslim or not a cure another because they aren't. And it *CERTAINLY* doesn't mean that I think my being a Muslim directly makes the medicine work better for me, which is what "*SNIP* his faith is doing it instead" clearly means.


-AHMAD

This changes the fact that you are posting unsubstantiated claims as fact not one iota.